Lee Sin is a top-tier champion that excels in two aspects - kicking ass and taking names. Best run in either solo top or the jungle, Lee Sin is a fantastic anti-carry, who excels at shutting down and/or assassinating the enemy damage dealers while providing a huge amount of utility to his team and soaking up quite a bit of punishment. His kit is quite similar to Irelia's, the biggest difference being that Lee Sin runs on energy and not mana. In addition, all of Lee Sin's abilities except his ulti have a "secondary ability" that can also be activated, giving Lee Sin essentially 7 skills.
Abilities
Passive - Flurry
After Lee Sin uses an ability, his next 2 basic attacks within 3 seconds gain 50% attack speed and refund 15 energy each.
This is a fantastic passive which helps Lee immensely when jungling, and is also very relevant in team fights when Lee flies in onto the enemy carry and starts wailing on them. When jungling, make sure to wait until the passive buff wears off before casting your next ability to maximize your bonus attack speed. More on this later in the Jungling section.
(Q) Sonic Wave/Resonating Strike Active - Sonic Wave:
Lee Sin projects a discordant wave of sound to reveal his enemies for 3 seconds, dealing physical damage to the first enemy it encounters. If Sonic Wave hits, Lee Sin can cast Resonating Strike for the next 3 seconds. Cost: 50 Energy Range: 975 Cooldown: 10/9/8/7/6 seconds Physical Damage: 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+100% of attack damage)
Active - Resonating Strike:
Lee Sin dashes to the enemy hit by Sonic Wave, dealing flat damage plus 10% of their missing health as physical damage. Cost: 30 Energy Range: Unlimited, as long as the target is still marked by Sonic Wave. Physical Damage: Physical Damage: 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+100% of attack damage) (+10% of target's missing health)
This is one of the most satisfying skills to use in the entire League of Legends, right up there with Garen ulti and Cho'Gath ulti. There's not much in this game more fun than ganking a lane, making the enemy champion blow his flash, and just when he thinks he's lived, you ninja-execute him from long range with Lee Sin's Q.
If you're ganking and you know the enemy has flash, don't waste your Resonating Strike too early. I see a lot of people hit Sonic Wave and immediately think they have to follow up with Resonating Strike. Hit Sonic Wave, wait for him to flash away from you, then close the gap again with Resonating Strike. Don't wait too long though, or the mark will expire!
A few things to note about this pair of abilities. They does not apply on-hit effects, such as the extra magic damage from Madred's Bloodrazer or Wits End. In addition, Sonic Wave's mark will last for three seconds, revealing the enemy champion hit for the entire duration. If Resonating Strike is used, the champion will no longer be revealed. This makes it really useful for chasing down stealth champions like Twitch and Eve. If they're running from a fight, try to predict their movement path with your Q. If it hits, your team will gain vision of them, allowing you or your team to finish the job.
(W) Safeguard/Iron Will Active - Safeguard:
Lee Sin dashes towards a target ally, shielding them both from damage for the next 5 seconds. After using Safeguard, Lee Sin can cast Iron Will for the next 3 seconds. Cost: 50 Energy Range: 750 Cooldown: 8 seconds Shield Strength: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+80% of ability power)
Active - Iron Will:
Lee Sin's intense training allows him to thrive in battle. For 5 seconds, Lee Sin gains lifesteal, spell vamp, and armor. Cost: 30 Energy Range: None Spell Vamp & Lifesteal Bonus: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% Armor Bonus: 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30
This pair of abilities is what lets Lee Sin compete with laners like Udyr in the sustain department, and basically stay in the jungle as long as he pleases. The fact that the shield applies to both Lee Sin and his target ally is incredibly useful for teamfights (shield your carry for an extra bit of survivability), and general laning (shield creeps your opponent is trying to last hit and sustain your health while last hitting). However, Lee Sin does not have to cast Safeguard on an ally champion or minion, he can simply cast it upon himself.
Safeguard allows Lee Sin insane amounts of mobility by using the dash in conjunction with his Q. You can use the QQ+W combo to poke enemies under towers and still escape unharmed, if you're careful. Make sure their disables are not up when you do this, because stuns/snares/taunts will prevent you from flying away with Safeguard. A very cool tactic utilizing Safeguard is to carry around at least 1 ward at all times. If you need to escape a tight spot, ward over a wall and Safeguard-dash to the ward.
Note: Safeguard cannot be cast while snared. It is the only shield in the game to be blocked when snared.
Note 2: The spell vamp from Iron Will allows Lee Sin to heal from damage done by Smite, so make sure to have Iron Will activated when you're smiting a minion in the jungle.
(E) Tempest/Cripple Active - Tempest:
Lee Sin smashes the ground sending out a shockwave that deals magic damage and reveals enemy units hit for 4 seconds. If Tempest hits an enemy, Lee Sin can cast Cripple for the next 3 seconds. Cost: 50 Energy Radius: 450 Cooldown: 10 seconds Magic Damage: 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+100% of attack damage)
Active - Cripple:
Lee Sin cripples nearby enemies revealed by Tempest, reducing their movement and attack speed for 4 seconds. Movement and attack speed recover gradually over the duration. Cost: 30 Energy Radius: None, as long as the target is marked by Tempest. Move/Attack Speed Reduction: 30 / 37.5 / 45 / 52.5 / 60 %
Pretty self explanatory ability. The vision granted by Tempest can also reveal invisible enemy units (Note: it also reveals Teemo shrooms), and keeps sight on enemies that leave the area until the mark expires. This ability is very useful during teamfights to slow initiating or escaping enemies, and the attack speed slow works very nicely against enemy AD carries that stack attack speed such as Caitlyn or Vayne.
I tend to take one rank in this ability at level 1 in the jungle since it helps me AoE down jungle camps, but Lee Sin's skilling order is completely open and flexible.
(R) Active - Dragon's Rage:
Lee Sin performs a powerful roundhouse kick launching his target back, dealing physical damage to the target and any enemies they collide with. Enemies the target collides with are knocked into the air for a short duration. Cost: None Range: 375 Cooldown: 90 / 75 / 60 seconds Physical Damage: 200 / 400 / 600 (+200% of attack damage)
Real ultimate, man.... Real ultimate. Basically what this skill says is "I, Lee Sin, am the Chuck Norris of League of Legends." Use this ability for ganks, initiating team fights, denying opposing initiates, walking the dog, filling up the Gatorade cooler, and painting your back porch. Using this ability in conjunction with Resonating Strike can be an absolutely devastating nuke, since Resonating Strike deals extra damage when its target is low on HP.
The attack damage ratio on this skill is absolutely amazing. It's not uncommon to see a Lee Sin ulti in the late game do 850+ damage after resistances, which is a little under half the health of a super squishy carry like Ashe or Ezreal.
A few neat tricks to try with dragon kick:
1. When enemies are attempting to initiate onto your team, dragon kick their initiator back into their whole team. Likely you'll knock 3-4 of them up, leaving them open to other CC, and you've also peeled the tanky champion right off by doing this.
2. If their squishy carry is a bit overextended and your flash is up, flash behind them and dragon kick them into your team. It's like throwing a piece of meat to a pack of hungry wolves. You can also use Resonating Strike to get to the carry, but I find this gives the enemy team enough time to come to their carry's rescue.
3. Hit a target with Sonic Wave. While he's still marked, dragon kick him and then use Resonating Strike to close the gap again. You'll be pleasantly surprised how much damage this skill does, since Resonating Strike will do damage based on the amount of health that you just removed from the target with your ulti.
4. Use your imagination.
Summoner Spells
AND /
Always take Flash on Lee Sin. Always. Just take it, you'll thank me later. If you're jungling, run Smite/Flash, and if you're laning run either Exhaust or Ignite in addition to Flash. I personally use Exhaust, since you can take the improved exhaust mastery in the first tier of the offensive tree.
The APen marks and armor seals are pretty much standard for all physical junglers. The armor seals keep you much healthier in the jungle, and the Armor Pen makes sure that you're doing true damage to all the jungle monsters for the first few levels. I like to run scaling Magic Resist instead of flat MR, since the scaling glyphs overtake the flats very quickly and prove much more useful in the late game when AP champions start securing big ticket items. A lot of people choose to run APen quints in addition to marks, but the flat AD quints provide you more damage in the early game before enemies start stacking up armor, which fits my playstyle better.
A lot of people run attack speed marks on their junglers, but since Lee Sin has an innate attack speed steroid, you don't need these. Just get APen and don't look back. If you're laning with Lee, swap out the flat damage quints for APen quints, which gives you a full 31 APen counting runes and masteries. This will scale better into the mid and late game, and since you're laning solo top, you will get there much faster than if you're jungling simply because there's more XP and farm available.
You can also run 0/9/21 to go deep in the utility tree. I like doing this over 21/0/9 personally since I find masteries like buff duration, improved flash, and summoner spell cooldown to good to pass up. I personally run 1/8/21 to also take improved smite, which looks like this: http://leaguecraft.com/masteries/0010000000000002020400000000033040102031301
Swap it around however you like, but remember in the jungle that the 5% exp buff from Awareness in the utility tree is basically mandatory. In lane, I've seen a variety of setups work well, from 21/9/0 to 0/21/9 to 15/0/15. I run 21/9/0 in lane, and I've been pretty happy with the results so far: http://leaguecraft.com/masteries/3100440131300102020401000000000000000000000
Skill Order
One of my favourite things about Lee Sin is that his skill order is completely up to the player. Some champions basically have their skill orders dictated for them, but not so with Lee Sin. If you want crazy burst damage early, max your Q first. Want Udyr-caliber sustain? Max W. Want to trade really effectively with AD champions and win your lane that way? Max E. I'll provide a few general skilling order outlines, but you can change them around however you want to.
In the jungle, I like to open with E so I can burst camps down faster and take less damage from them in the process, while depending on the lane I'll either open with W or Q. I'll take W against strong physical damage champions that I know I'll need sustain against, and I'll take Q if I anticipate any early teamfights or burst trades in lane.
Here are a few of my basic skilling orders, but Lee Sin's orders are highly based on preference, and easily can change based on the team composition you are facing. I tend to prioritize Q and W over E.
Jungling: EQWQWR, R > Q > W > E Laning: QWQEWR, R > Q > W > E
Item Builds
I'll divide this section into jungling and laning, since those item paths are very distinct.
Jungling
First Items
+ 5x
I like opening cloth armor + 5 potions in the jungle. If you've got flat armor yellows on your runepage, then you'll have 50 armor at level 1 and can clear any camp you choose. I personally like to start at a camp that can give me a fast level 2 gank, because Lee Sin's level 2 ganks with Q and E are stupidly good. The camps that can give you a fast level 2 are: mini golems and blue buff. If you have Zilean on your team, or for some reason you run XP quints, you can also do it with red buff. I don't recommend starting at red though, since it's in a very inconvenient location for your teammates to help you out and it only works in two specific situations.
It's also possible to start with this item when jungling. I can't say I have too much of an opinion on it though, since I've never bought it first on Lee Sin. Getting this item basically means you're not expecting any early level action, from my experience buying this a lot on Nocturne.
+3x OR + +
If you want to make your level 2 gank even stronger, then open tier 1 boots and 3 health potions, which will give you the ability to catch any enemy. This is safe to do starting at both blue buff and mini golems, but if you want to start at blue buff without buying Cloth Armor, I recommend having an extra long leash (ie. have your teammate hit the Ancient Golem many times, leaving before you smite it so they do not steal XP). The reason for this is that without Cloth Armor, the golem will take your health down extremely low, and a level 2 gank will not be possible due to your low health.
If you want to counter jungle very early, open tier 1 boots, one potion, and one ward. You can do a fast level 2 gank, go ward the opposing jungler's red buff, and then continue normally. I don't recommend doing this however, since it forces you to take W at level 1 to remain at a reasonable level of health. I'd rather open with EQ in the first two levels, allowing me the option of a level 2 gank. In addition, if you are facing a relatively fast jungler like Nocturne or Amumu, you may get caught and killed very early on. This works much better against slower junglers like Warwick or Prince Jarman.
My personal recommendation? Open cloth armor and 5 potions, since they give you the most jungle safety of any initial items. Start at your mini golems if you are purple team, and the opposing team's mini golems if you are blue team (make sure you know where the opposing jungler/team is). Get E at level 1, Q at level 2, and gank the opposing top lane like a boss. If you get first blood, you've just secured a massive advantage for your team. If not, you've done free damage to the opposing top lane or made him blow a summoner or two, and made it easier for your top to win his lane.
Core
+
These are your staple jungling items. It is possible to jungle without Wriggles on Lee Sin, but I go for both these items each game since they provide you the following stats, all of which are hugely beneficial on LS: Damage, Lifesteal, Armor, Magic Resist, and Tenacity.
What's Next?
I am a huge fan of this item when coming out of the jungle as Lee Sin. Now before you call me a troll and stop reading this guide, hear me out.
Hexdrinker is a very situational item, and I'm definitely not advocating that you buy it every game on Lee. However, those games where the enemy team has an AP carry that's really farmed up or fed a few kills, this item is really good. It will aid you in ganking that hero's lane, since it gives you a nice damage boost (30 AD on basic attacks and all your skills, since LS has great ratios), 35 magic resist, and a shield to prevent you from getting instantly killed by the fed Malzahar.
On some heroes, it's a much better idea to buy Wits End instead of Hexdrinker, but I like Hexdrinker on Lee Sin for two reasons. First of all, Lee Sin already has an attack speed steroid built in, so the 40% attack speed on Wits End is somewhat excessive. Number two, Wits End provides no flat damage boost, while Hexdrinker does - Lee Sin's AD ratios on his Q, E, and R are so large that any flat damage boost can't be written off easily. Moral of the story? Hexdrinker is a competitive item and definitely does have its place on Lee Sin, both in jungle and in lane.
Note: Fnatic's Cyanide used this item at Dreamhack on his Jungle Jarman in Fnatic's match against CLG. Jarman is very similar to Lee Sin in the ways that I've described. He has a built in attack speed steroid (Demacian Standard), and his AD ratios are large enough to justify going Hexdrinker. Despite what people say, Hexdrinker is definitely viable.
+ OR OR
Ah yes, the almighty Atmogs. Without a doubt, these items work great on Lee Sin. At level 18 and with full Warmogs stacks, Atmogs will give you 1370 extra HP and 67 extra attack damage, which translates to 134 extra damage on your ulti. I highly recommend going this route if you're laning as Lee, but coming out of the jungle you won't have enough farm to make both these items fast enough. The time at which you are the most vulnerable going this route out of the jungle is when you are building your Warmogs. Its prerequisite items are Giants Belt, Health Crystal, and Regrowth Pendant, which gives you about 500 health and a bit of regeneration; unfortunately that's not too much of a stat boost, plus it's not giving you any bonus damage.
If you're laning as Lee, you'll likely have enough farm to build Warmogs fast enough to start stacking it up and make it a good first item. I've heard some people argue that in the jungle, you build Atmas first instead of Warmogs since that gives you an armor and AD boost, which is useful in mid game team fights. I can't say I've tried this myself, but I don't have much confidence in it. 2335 gold for 45 Armor and 18% critical strike, plus the passive of 2% max health as damage is not worth it when your health pool is low. Spend 700 gold for the Chain Vest if you need it and then build another item.
Frozen Mallet is my item of choice to replace Atmogs when jungling with Lee Sin. The bonus health and attack damage are great, and the slow on your physical attacks is also a fantastic CC for ganking and team fighting. In addition, unlike going straight up to Atmogs, the pre requisite items also provide quite a bit of utility, Phage in particular. The most efficient way to build Frozen Mallet is to complete that Phage as fast as you can, which gives you health, damage, and a 25% slow chance on attack, and then the Giants Belt. Upgrading the Phage+Belt to Frozen Mallet only gives you an extra 50 health and upgrades the slow from a 25% chance to a 100% chance, and a 30% slow to 40% slow. Doublelift likes to prioritize resistances after getting Phage and Giants Belt, finishing Frozen Mallet after getting either a Chain Vest or Negatron Cloak. This is typically my third or fourth item, after Wriggles, Mercury's Treads, and occasionally Hexdrinker if I need it.
Note: Slows from other items do not stack with the slow from Frozen Mallet, but the slow from red buff does stack, albeit with diminishing returns.
Triforce is very much in the same category as Atmogs on Lee Sin. Fantastic item, as the only stat that doesn't benefit Lee Sin is the mana. Also, since Lee has seven skills as opposed to the normal four, you will get a huge amount of Sheen procs. The slow from Phage is also incredibly useful. However, what I wrote regarding the level of farm required to make Atmogs good also applies here. Trinity Force is the most expensive item in the game, costing 4070 gold, and Lee isn't going to get that much farm when jungling. I like to build Phage first, and depending on how the team is doing in the mid game, ether finish that into a Frozen Mallet or a Trinity Force. If you've gotten a few kills, a few towers, or a few dragons, I'd be confident in going Triforce because you'll be more farmed up than the opposing team. However, if the game is going the opposite way, I'd prefer going Frozen Mallet.
Late Game Items
Add on any of these items that will help you build against the other team. Out of all of them, I tend to buy FoN and Randuins Omen the most, simply because Lee Sin is best played as an anti-carry, and that tends to draw a lot of focus to you. FoN gives you a movement speed boost, magic resist, health regen, and a passive that synergizes really well with your health item purchase (Warmogs or Frozen Mallet). Randuins has flat HP, health regen, armor, and a passive/active that really work well with Lee Sin's role in team fights. The passive gives you CDR and a chance to slow enemy attackers, and the active gives you an AoE slow for surrounding enemies, perfect for when you jump into a team fight and start killing the enemy carries.
I'm not a huge fan of Banshee's Veil, since the mana is wasted on Lee and it doesn't give that much HP. However, if there's one enemy skill that's just killing you in teamfights, go ahead and get Banshees to block it. Prioritize the Negatron Cloak over Catalyst, since the MRes is more useful than flat HP and Mana in the mid game or late game.
Frozen Heart works great against Vayne, or at least it does as well as any defensive item can attempt to do, since armor is irrelevant against Silver Bolts. I tend to get Randuins Omen over Frozen Heart since Lee doesn't need the mana or CDR as much as someone like Warwick, except against carries that have huge attack speeds like Tristana, Vayne, and the likes.
Aegis I have much less experience with. I've just started buying it for teams who refuse to build any defensive items, especially against champions with AoE skills that can hurt all of the members of your team.
I never really considered going GA until I watched all of the IEM matches in Cologne, and saw Soaz go GA every game on his lane Lee Sin. This item not only provides you a great boost in armor and MR, but makes you a much less attractive target to focus since you have a free second life incoming. A pretty standard pattern for team fights is that you get in the midst of the enemy team and start killing their carries, while the enemy team focuses you down as best they can - GA gives you a second chance after they kill you.
My Staple Final Build
+ + + + +
Replacements for Wriggles
AD, AP, Lifesteal, and Spell Vamp. If you're really farmed up in lane, go ahead and make this as your first big item. However, since it provides no flat defensive stats, I wouldn't be comfortable at all making this out of the jungle. I've seen Chauster make this on stream, but only when he was 5/0/0 in lane, and at that point he pretty much could have bought anything to carry the team. Otherwise, I like this item quite a lot as a replacement for Wriggles, after you've bought everything else. The active has quite a long range, and using it on carries in team fights can really give your team an initiation advantage.
Same category as Gunblade. If you're really farmed up and want to extend your lead, buy one of these early on. Also can be used to replace Wriggles in the late game after all of your other items are finished. If you're going to make it after all the rest of your items though, I'd rather see you go Gunblade.
Laning
First Items
+3x
I'll pretty much always open with boots+3 potions in top lane. It gives you the ability to be more mobile than your opponent if they open with an item like dorans blade, and the ability to stay in lane for 600 more health.
+ 5x
You can also open with cloth armor + 5 potions if you want to really out-sustain your opponent, but I'd do this only against heavy physical damage champions like Udyr or Prince Jarman. However, if you open this way, you're basically committing to building a Wriggles, Razors, or Ninja Tabi, which can set you back on stronger laning items.
You can also open with a Doran's Blade if you want, but only if you are 100% confident that you can start winning your lane right from the get-go. Examples of a few lanes you can win right from level 1: Vladimir, since his transfuse CD at low levels is insanely high. Get brush control against him and secure an early advantage, and it will be very difficult for him to catch up. Akali, since a lot of her burst relies on proc'ing her healing marks and staying out of harm's way with her stealth shroud. However, you're Lee Sin and you have an AoE mark that reveals her if she tries to use her shroud. You can also out-heal her with W or out-burst her with Q.
If you open boots, cloth armor, or anything for that matter, stacking 2-3 DBlades will give you a nice bit of health and damage in the later laning phase, which can really solidify an advantage into a 100% won lane.
Core
Similar to what Smash says about Jarvan - if you're already ahead and think that you can get an even larger advantage in your lane, buy one of these. CDR will let you use more skills on your opponent, and heal up more with Iron Will. Armor penetration will make your skills hurt even more, and The Brutalizer is 1337. You can omit Brutalizer if you want to get a faster big ticket item.
Notice how I haven't included any specific items in here that give armor - it's because Iron Will when activated gives quite a bit of bonus armor, which will cover you in that department.
What's Next?
+ OR Your first priority after finishing your core items as Lee Sin should be getting a decent HP pool, since we will be adding on Atma's Impaler in the late game. If you're going the Atmogs route, since you will be getting a solo lane, I prefer rushing straight up to Warmogs. Both of these items are fantastic, but you will be significantly less durable if you prefer rushing Triforce.
My Staple Final Build
+ + + + +
Pretty similar to the jungling build, except since you'll be able to secure more farm, you can get your big-ticket items faster and be more effective overall.
Thanks for reading. Now go, and harness your inner ninja with The Blind Monk!
August 18/11 - Created v1 of the guide. August 18/11 - Added further description on Frozen Mallet, removed the Philosophers Stone image for clarity. August 22/11 - Added GA to Lategame items after IEM Cologne. August 28/11 - Re-organized the item section to have a clearer progression from early to late game.
This guide is really nice but there is already a thread on Lee sin which is used to discussed his possible builds. If everyone started making their own threads then our mini forum will get all messy, sorry but I don't know if this thread will last . Also the part about the gp5 item, I don't think philo stone would be very useful at all on Lee.
Also, vamp scepter start for jungle I think is optimal. Using Sycho Sid's route, you can run wraiths, wolves, mini gols b. armor + pot. wraiths, wolves, blue, gank or mini gols red.
I've talked to the mods already about making a new thread for him. The old one is outdated and very wrong in many aspects, so I'm going to maintain the new one. I've said beneath those two items that I'm not actually a fan of opening g/10 on Lee sin, but I listed them anyway since opening gold/10 is so popular on junglers these days.
There is absolutely no reason to waste gold on a philo stone for an energy-based champion. I think you should also list Doublelift's LS build, which is something along the lines of phage, giant's belt, negatron/chain vest, negatron/chain vest (whichever you didn't get before), atma's, and then combine into frozen mallet when you have the gold since the 825g combine cost pretty much only gives you the 100% slow proc. Frozen heart isn't an ideal item on Lee Sin since he can't really make full use of either the CDR or the mana, and most teams will probably have someone better suited to building it if needed.
Sometimes waiting for a full atmogs as a jungler isn't worth it so something like heart of gold+phage+giants belt+atmas is a nice choice. Hexdrinker is my go-to mr item otherwise FoN on top of that I suppose.
On August 19 2011 07:17 TieN.nS) wrote: There is absolutely no reason to waste gold on a philo stone for an energy-based champion. I think you should also list Doublelift's LS build, which is something along the lines of phage, giant's belt, negatron/chain vest, negatron/chain vest (whichever you didn't get before), atma's, and then combine into frozen mallet when you have the gold since the 825g combine cost pretty much only gives you the 100% slow proc. Frozen heart isn't an ideal item on Lee Sin since he can't really make full use of either the CDR or the mana, and most teams will probably have someone better suited to building it if needed.
If you read the text below the pictures, you'd notice that I have said almost 100% exactly that.
On August 19 2011 07:19 Slayer91 wrote: Sometimes waiting for a full atmogs as a jungler isn't worth it so something like heart of gold+phage+giants belt+atmas is a nice choice. Hexdrinker is my go-to mr item otherwise FoN on top of that I suppose.
There's a lot of description of items but can you make a cookie cutter build showing the build you usually end up with?
Also yeah please take out Frozen Heart. The mana's useless and cdr isn't needed just like you said. You shouldn't need to explain it imo. Warden's Mail is just as good an alternative if you're looking to reduce your enemy's attack speed. You'll always draw the aggro for it if you're going for the carry anyways.
On August 19 2011 07:24 R04R wrote: There's a lot of description of items but can you make a cookie cutter build showing the build you usually end up with?
Also yeah please take out Frozen Heart. The mana's useless and cdr isn't needed just like you said. You shouldn't need to explain it imo. Warden's Mail is just as good an alternative if you're looking to reduce your enemy's attack speed. You'll always draw the aggro for it if you're going for the carry anyways.
I never really end up with the same thing, it always depends on the enemy team. Generally I guess it ends up looking like Wriggles - Mercs - Frozen Mallet - anything.
Also, I still think Frozen Heart is viable against attack speed stacking carries, and always against Vayne. I agree the mana is useless, but it both gives more armor than Randuins Omen and its attack speed slow is AoE, which unlike the slow from Randuins Omen, does not require the enemy carry to be attacking you. CDR is just a bonus.
On August 19 2011 07:17 TieN.nS) wrote: There is absolutely no reason to waste gold on a philo stone for an energy-based champion. I think you should also list Doublelift's LS build, which is something along the lines of phage, giant's belt, negatron/chain vest, negatron/chain vest (whichever you didn't get before), atma's, and then combine into frozen mallet when you have the gold since the 825g combine cost pretty much only gives you the 100% slow proc. Frozen heart isn't an ideal item on Lee Sin since he can't really make full use of either the CDR or the mana, and most teams will probably have someone better suited to building it if needed.
If you read the text below the pictures, you'd notice that I have said almost 100% exactly that.
On August 19 2011 07:19 Slayer91 wrote: Sometimes waiting for a full atmogs as a jungler isn't worth it so something like heart of gold+phage+giants belt+atmas is a nice choice. Hexdrinker is my go-to mr item otherwise FoN on top of that I suppose.
Same thing....
I did read the text. Saying "you can finish it whenever" isn't the same thing as explaining that finishing the mallet gives you nearly nothing in the way of stats, so you should finish atma's for damage and get resistances first. AND, you say that you actually get a complete mallet after wriggle's, merc's, and hexdrinker.
On August 19 2011 07:17 TieN.nS) wrote: There is absolutely no reason to waste gold on a philo stone for an energy-based champion. I think you should also list Doublelift's LS build, which is something along the lines of phage, giant's belt, negatron/chain vest, negatron/chain vest (whichever you didn't get before), atma's, and then combine into frozen mallet when you have the gold since the 825g combine cost pretty much only gives you the 100% slow proc. Frozen heart isn't an ideal item on Lee Sin since he can't really make full use of either the CDR or the mana, and most teams will probably have someone better suited to building it if needed.
If you read the text below the pictures, you'd notice that I have said almost 100% exactly that.
On August 19 2011 07:19 Slayer91 wrote: Sometimes waiting for a full atmogs as a jungler isn't worth it so something like heart of gold+phage+giants belt+atmas is a nice choice. Hexdrinker is my go-to mr item otherwise FoN on top of that I suppose.
Same thing....
I did read the text. Saying "you can finish it whenever" isn't the same thing as explaining that finishing the mallet gives you nearly nothing in the way of stats, so you should finish atma's for damage and get resistances first.
I guess that's fair, but I did say that you should prioritize the Phage+Belt as first item choices if you are going to build it. I'll add.
On August 19 2011 07:24 R04R wrote: There's a lot of description of items but can you make a cookie cutter build showing the build you usually end up with?
Also yeah please take out Frozen Heart. The mana's useless and cdr isn't needed just like you said. You shouldn't need to explain it imo. Warden's Mail is just as good an alternative if you're looking to reduce your enemy's attack speed. You'll always draw the aggro for it if you're going for the carry anyways.
I never really end up with the same thing, it always depends on the enemy team. Generally I guess it ends up looking like Wriggles - Mercs - Frozen Mallet - anything.
Also, I still think Frozen Heart is viable against attack speed stacking carries, and always against Vayne. I agree the mana is useless, but it both gives more armor than Randuins Omen and its attack speed slow is AoE, which unlike the slow from Randuins Omen, does not require the enemy carry to be attacking you. CDR is just a bonus.
CDR is not a bonus if you don't have enough energy to make use of it. Two wasted stats, bad item. Although, I don't take blue and don't use energy regen runes. Maybe a Lee Sin that does those can make use of the CDR.
Oh yeah, really important thing is to always have spare wards on hand. Not just for actual vision, but also for an escape or even to chase. It's basically a flash for 75g. Lee Sin's greatest strength is his mobility and you're just gimping yourself by not always having wards in your inventory.
On August 19 2011 07:24 R04R wrote: There's a lot of description of items but can you make a cookie cutter build showing the build you usually end up with?
Also yeah please take out Frozen Heart. The mana's useless and cdr isn't needed just like you said. You shouldn't need to explain it imo. Warden's Mail is just as good an alternative if you're looking to reduce your enemy's attack speed. You'll always draw the aggro for it if you're going for the carry anyways.
I never really end up with the same thing, it always depends on the enemy team. Generally I guess it ends up looking like Wriggles - Mercs - Frozen Mallet - anything.
Also, I still think Frozen Heart is viable against attack speed stacking carries, and always against Vayne. I agree the mana is useless, but it both gives more armor than Randuins Omen and its attack speed slow is AoE, which unlike the slow from Randuins Omen, does not require the enemy carry to be attacking you. CDR is just a bonus.
CDR is not a bonus if you don't have enough energy to make use of it. Two wasted stats, bad item. Although, I don't take blue and don't use energy regen runes. Maybe a Lee Sin that does those can make use of the CDR.
When I said "bonus", I just meant that the CDR is something that comes along with the item. Obviously your priority with Frozen Heart isn't CDR. Lee Sin's energy costs are actually quite reasonable if you take your time casting his skills, which also further optimizes his attack speed steroid. 20% CDR is actually quite nice to have, considering that it takes 2 full seconds off your Tempest/Cripple (which is again useful against high attack speed), and 12 seconds off your no-cost ulti.
Also, I did say that the reason I see Frozen Heart as viable is the 24 extra armor and AoE attack speed slow when compared to Randuins Omen.
Right now on IEM stream, Lee Sin player on Millenium building Frozen Heart against Vayne....
Edit: I mentioned ward jumping in the guide when speaking about Safeguard.
Edit 2: He only got up to Glacial Shroud before the game ended, but that only builds into one thing.
Fair enough. I don't really like either item on him to be honest, though Randuin's has the active, the Warden's Mail passive, and no wasted stats. I did miss the part you put in about ward jumping, my fault. It's really important though!
What do you like after Frozen Mallet against carries that stack mad attack speed like Tristana and especially Vayne? There aren't any more legendary items that give high amounts of armor, unless you count Thornmail, which is useless when compared to Frozen Heart since it only gives 1 more armor and has no CDR or Aura attack speed slow.
I mainly jungle him, and here's what my items look like: cloth + 5 pots, madred's razor/boots depending on whether I level 2 ganked or not (and whether it was successful or not), madred's razor/boots + hp pots/wards as I deem necessary, wriggle's, phage, giant's belt, negatron/chain vest, negatron/chain vest, atma's impaler. So basically I have Wriggle's Lantern, Merc Treads, Frozen Mallet, Atma's Impaler, and Negatron Cloak (probably FoN for the movespeed and hp regen, and most MR in one slot). Without accounting for masteries, runes, and base stats that's already a bonus 75 armor, 700 HP, and 101 MR. If that's not enough survivability to live through fights then you're either positioning poorly, diving too far, or you just didn't do enough early game and the enemy's just too farmed relative to your team. Last item I'd probably go GA if necessary but realistically most games probably end before finishing Frozen Mallet even.
You're right, exhaust rapes lee sin 2 hard. IDK, Atmas as your armor item seems too "halfway" if you know what I mean. It's only 45 armor, and keep in mind that someone like Corki or Vayne basically ignores armor.
GA is a decent last item, but I have never really built it on LS.
Edit: OddOne going hexdrinker after DBlades right now on IEM stream. <3 too much.
There's a little armor in Wriggle's from the cloth armor component as well, and if the League wikia is correct then base armor is 82.6 at level 18. 157.6 is plenty of armor already, and a chain vest for GA adds another 45 on top of that. Basically, if you have enough gold for 6 items, the game has gone on long enough that one team fight will determine the outcome of the game, and so GA is best.
On August 19 2011 08:28 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Edit: OddOne going hexdrinker after DBlades right now on IEM stream. <3 too much.
Ehh, TheOddOne needs LS practice, he just plain suicided a few times that game lol.
Depends on who's on the enemy team, and who's doing the most on the enemy team, to me. I have no problem getting a legendary armor item (randuins, frozen heart) if the game dictates it - Vayne or Corki on the enemy team pretty much decides it for me, since I hate silver bolts with a deep passion.
When Oddone Q over the wall onto 4 myR players during that blue invasion.... Gah, that made me sad. ^_^
If your only concern is staying alive yourself with Vayne hitting you then Randuin's is the way to go since the Warden's Mail passive AND the active both reduce aspd, and both are better than Frozen Heart's aura for single target aspd reduction (35% compared to 20%). But I mean, between exhaust and cripple, and the fact that you do a ridiculous amount of damage and can just knock people up/out of a fight, you really shouldn't be too concerned about it. Frozen Heart is ok if there's literally no one else on your team that it makes sense on, I just think it's generally a bad idea since most teams will have someone that can make better use of the stats while providing the aura.
On August 19 2011 08:28 HyperionDreamer wrote: Edit: OddOne going hexdrinker after DBlades right now on IEM stream. <3 too much.
Oddone was also giving up a lot of his own farming time to disrupt Amumu's jungle. He probably would have gotten a Giant's Belt if he actually ever got to bluepill with 1k+ gold at once, but it looks like he probably only ever had ~800-ish in his pocket at any given time.
On August 19 2011 08:28 HyperionDreamer wrote: Edit: OddOne going hexdrinker after DBlades right now on IEM stream. <3 too much.
Oddone was also giving up a lot of his own farming time to disrupt Amumu's jungle. He probably would have gotten a Giant's Belt if he actually ever got to bluepill with 1k+ gold at once, but it looks like he probably only ever had ~800-ish in his pocket at any given time.
For sure. This is kind of exactly why I love going Hexdrinker out of the jungle, since your farm isn't going to allow you to buy big items in one fell swoop. (it's also got real stats for lee sin)
I like opening cloth armor + 5 potions in the jungle. If you've got flat armor yellows on your runepage, then you'll have 50 armor at level 1 and can clear any camp you choose. I personally like to start at a camp that can give me a fast level 2 gank, because Lee Sin's level 2 ganks with Q and E are stupidly good. The camps that can give you a fast level 2 are: mini golems, blue buff, and red buff. I don't recommend starting at red though, since it's in a very inconvenient location for your teammates to help you out. Ideally, you want one of your teammates to leash the mini golems or the blue buff for you, which will speed up your acquisition of level 2 and keep you at higher health. Red buff is far enough away that your mid/top will be losing XP if they leash for you.
Starting lizard WILL NOT get you to level 2. With experience masteries in utility tree you will get 273/280 experience from it. To level off red you will also need zilean on your team, or xp quints
I like opening cloth armor + 5 potions in the jungle. If you've got flat armor yellows on your runepage, then you'll have 50 armor at level 1 and can clear any camp you choose. I personally like to start at a camp that can give me a fast level 2 gank, because Lee Sin's level 2 ganks with Q and E are stupidly good. The camps that can give you a fast level 2 are: mini golems, blue buff, and red buff. I don't recommend starting at red though, since it's in a very inconvenient location for your teammates to help you out. Ideally, you want one of your teammates to leash the mini golems or the blue buff for you, which will speed up your acquisition of level 2 and keep you at higher health. Red buff is far enough away that your mid/top will be losing XP if they leash for you.
Starting lizard WILL NOT get you to level 2. With experience masteries in utility tree you will get 273/280 experience from it. To level off red you will also need zilean on your team, or xp quints
Really? I wrote that in the guide since I've seen people in my games who jungle Shaco start at red and get level 2 off it - maybe they were running XP quints since i've never asked.... Now that I look it up, you're right.... 273 xp with the 5% from awareness.
Thanks for correcting me, I'll remove that from the OP.
I like opening cloth armor + 5 potions in the jungle. If you've got flat armor yellows on your runepage, then you'll have 50 armor at level 1 and can clear any camp you choose. I personally like to start at a camp that can give me a fast level 2 gank, because Lee Sin's level 2 ganks with Q and E are stupidly good. The camps that can give you a fast level 2 are: mini golems, blue buff, and red buff. I don't recommend starting at red though, since it's in a very inconvenient location for your teammates to help you out. Ideally, you want one of your teammates to leash the mini golems or the blue buff for you, which will speed up your acquisition of level 2 and keep you at higher health. Red buff is far enough away that your mid/top will be losing XP if they leash for you.
Starting lizard WILL NOT get you to level 2. With experience masteries in utility tree you will get 273/280 experience from it. To level off red you will also need zilean on your team, or xp quints
Really? I wrote that in the guide since I've seen people in my games who jungle Shaco start at red and get level 2 off it - maybe they were running XP quints since i've never asked.... Now that I look it up, you're right.... 273 xp with the 5% from awareness.
Thanks for correcting me, I'll remove that from the OP.
Thats actually because they probably smite the big wraith.
Cyanide against CLG right now demonstrating why building up to Warmogs out of the jungle is really risky. He finished it at 30:30, is putting out basically no damage, and is only starting to stack up the mogs.
Lee sin is excellent jungle because of his unpredictability ( timing of his ganks ) he can literaly gank anywhere at anytime.Sadly he is often banned at 2k+. I am rocking 80% win ratio with him which is quite nice for this elo , i will throw my 2 cents about what i do below.
Red-> arp Yellow-> armor Blue-> Many options here. I'd pick flat energy tho if u have them or would spend the ip for them. Flat mr/mr per level are always an option tho.
I start wolves , smite big wraith , kill wraiths , golem and finish with red. ( NOTE : You need to practise this route or you might fail the red. Recall
Buy boots and 2 pots , look for a gank. If bot is pushed . i.e u have a carry thats not ashe head to there and hide in the bushes. There is a good chance a 100% kill will be happening.
If its not pushed get to blue , get it yourself or give it to your mid player if he wants it ( he will ). When you give blue to him you will be able to head mid because it will be pushed 100% of the time since your mid was taking the blue. If mid gank isnt viable head to top , or just clear small camps again to get to lvl 5. From there its game on. ALWAYS look for ganks.
If the game is going well ( you get a few kills / assist or a dragon you can consider rushing warmogs. Dont get a warmog 30mins in cuze you will be useless , deal no dmg and be not tanky at all. Also remember lee sin is a an assassin who initiates/offtanks late game not a TANK.
- wouldn't it be better to smite big wraith then go to wolves then go finish wraiths - what are you building after wriggles when warmogs isn't suitable? i pretty much never rush warmogs on jungle sin and im curious as to what you consider standard otherwise
On August 21 2011 16:56 UniversalSnip wrote: if you're running offense spec you run through that route and finish red without smite coming back up unless you smite the wraith first
You dont need smite for red.
Start wolves , E once 2 auto attack E again , you will lose only 1 bar of hp. Smite big wraith back off while u press control + w and alt + w to shield urself , use W again , 2 auto attacks , E twice again. No hp lost. Move to golems. Kite properly to get shield cd , You will hit lvl 3 off golems and if you played properly you will have 4 bars of hp left , q small lizard pull back to regen energy and shield urself. Use q and w again while moving in , E 2 autos , E again , Q twice to kill the golem will be enough ( TIP wait for your 2nd E dmg to Q the 2nd time ) Golem is dead , tele back up. Get boots and pot/ward or pots depending on what you want. Look for ganks or do Blue -> wolves -> golems to hit 5. At this point you will be the same level as the top lane.
On August 20 2011 16:48 UniversalSnip wrote: thanks for your insight. couple questions
- wouldn't it be better to smite big wraith then go to wolves then go finish wraiths - what are you building after wriggles when warmogs isn't suitable? i pretty much never rush warmogs on jungle sin and im curious as to what you consider standard otherwise
Depends on the game , many of the games if u dont have amazing early game warmog rushing wont work. If it doesnt your atma will be really late and you wouldnt do damage through the midgame where lee sin excels his early game advantage ( assuming he has one ).
You could also try going merc treads , lantern , phage / brutalizer. From there you arent very tanky but you can choose into building frozen mallet for hp or trinity. The problem lee sin has in solo que is people assume you are a tank , which you arent. You are an amazing ganker early game , decent damage dealer mid game and a tanky initiator / finisher late game.
Also to your second question , lee sin is probably one of the few jungles who can snowball kills really fast early game in 2k + rated games. If u get 3-4 kills or alot of assists early game and, dragon rushing warmogs will make u invincible , your damage wont fall of because you will be high level compared to the rest of the game. I dont know about us meta , but because of brand(mega nukes mid meta) morgana has been picked / banned almost 90% of my games recently. Lee sin with morgana shield is AMAZING
If you need a tank/initiator you still want to build into that, especially if you have a poor early game. I'd rather be able to initiate and be a sacrificial lamb than attempt to build into an assassin/bruiser type where a carry can easily 1v1 you.
On August 22 2011 15:05 rob.au wrote: If you need a tank/initiator you still want to build into that, especially if you have a poor early game. I'd rather be able to initiate and be a sacrificial lamb than attempt to build into an assassin/bruiser type where a carry can easily 1v1 you.
Oh another very important thing that i forgot to mention is that you wait to buy your starting item after the initial CV , this way your enemy's wont know if you are ganking early or picking up a fast leveling route. The difference being dorans vs V.scepter vs boots
On August 22 2011 16:42 TheBJ wrote: Oh another very important thing that i forgot to mention is that you wait to buy your starting item after the initial CV , this way your enemy's wont know if you are ganking early or picking up a fast leveling route. The difference being dorans vs V.scepter vs boots
Not worth it. They'll CV you again before laning starts, and by waiting that long, you get the opponent the chance to set up for/against invasion. It's always better to buy instantly and go, IMO (and I've never seen a high-level team wait out a CV before leaving base).
I find getting 1-2 dblaed after wriggles and mercs quite strong on lee. It's around the time when his ganks are the strongest and you want to have cheap and effective items on him. hexdrinker is also viable as you explained.
EDIT: Doing it every time now. nothing as good as stacking dblades if you come out of the jungle with wriggles mercs. I get at least 2 of them and sometimes even 4. also I started to max E over everything and it is fucking amazing how good it works.
Interesting, I've never thought of getting dblades that late in the game (already finished wriggles+mercs). I'll give that a run tonight, if I get the chance to play any LoL. Maxing E is real strong for the increased slow, I've been doing Q > E > W for a bit and it's pretty strong. In lane against bruisers though, W rules for regen+armor bonus.
I don't really agree with either dblade stack or maxing E, because jungle sin is resource constrained and you have to ensure you don't just insta-die in fights. W gives you not only an extra 200 hp (shared with your ally) every few seconds, it also ups your armor and sustain substantially.
Only time I can remember getting a few dblades was when we were losing pretty bad and needed a short-term edge to come back into the game. I'd rather get resistances and a mix of hp / damage as needed.
saintvicious starts dblade and ganks at 2. Then he gets another and boots before madred's razor. Something about scaling well with his Q and because he ganks a lot.
I think maxing E over W is really dependent on the enemy team comp, and even more on your team comp. If you're doing reasonably well (read: up a few kills, maybe a dragon, and are confident in your teamfighting), then I can see maxing E over W since you'll be able to be up in the opponent's face more without worrying about your teammates as much. If you're behind, you'll probably need W for the increased survivability and team-shielding.
resistances and a mix of hp / damage as needed.
This is basically exactly what wriggles+mercs+dblades can give you, l0l. 30 armor from wriggles, 25 MR and cc reduction from mercs, 200 HP and 20 damage from dblades. I think it's worth a try, I'll post here again when I feel like I've gotten the hang of it well enough to comment.
So since he's free this week, I've had a chance to play both with and against Lee Sin.
My impression is this... he's very balanced. Not overpowered, but still strong enough to hold his own both solo and in team fights. He's one of very few that are actually like this.
Maybe it's just like this in low level play, but I was pleasantly surprised that he wasn't just crazy strong.
ATeddyBear: dblade start makes sense if you're intent in ganking early. It's dblades AFTER wriggles that I'm against.
On September 01 2011 06:43 HyperionDreamer wrote: I think maxing E over W is really dependent on the enemy team comp, and even more on your team comp. If you're doing reasonably well (read: up a few kills, maybe a dragon, and are confident in your teamfighting), then I can see maxing E over W since you'll be able to be up in the opponent's face more without worrying about your teammates as much. If you're behind, you'll probably need W for the increased survivability and team-shielding.
You can always find a scenario in which it makes more sense to max one thing over the other, especially on someone so versatile like lee sin. However, saying that and saying "Max E" are two completely different things. Skill paths are a suggestion anyway, not something you follow blindly; you're Expected to switch if it makes more sense that way.
On September 01 2011 06:43 HyperionDreamer wrote: This is basically exactly what wriggles+mercs+dblades can give you, l0l. 30 armor from wriggles, 25 MR and cc reduction from mercs, 200 HP and 20 damage from dblades. I think it's worth a try, I'll post here again when I feel like I've gotten the hang of it well enough to comment.
I shoulda been more clear, my apologies.
Dblades don't turn into anything. They're a short term investment which isn't optimal unless you abuse them early (200 hp / 20 damage are much less scary at level 11 than at level 4), and getting them that late is going to delay much more important items AND take up valuable inventory space. You'll just end up selling them at half the cost very quickly, at which point you should have just gotten phage and called it a day.
Also, both your Ws scale from flat resistances, in that your shield and lifesteal/spellvamp give you more EHP. I'd get ruby crystal + negatron/chainmail if I was dying to a specific damage type, for example.
On September 01 2011 07:06 Lanzoma wrote: Dblades don't turn into anything. They're a short term investment which isn't optimal unless you abuse them early (200 hp / 20 damage are much less scary at level 11 than at level 4), and getting them that late is going to delay much more important items AND take up valuable inventory space. You'll just end up selling them at half the cost very quickly, at which point you should have just gotten phage and called it a day.
Also, both your Ws scale from flat resistances, in that your shield and lifesteal/spellvamp give you more EHP. I'd get ruby crystal + negatron/chainmail if I was dying to a specific damage type, for example.
I agree that Dblades don't build into anything, but how often do you take up all 6 inventory slots before 25 minutes into the game? It's very common to see a carry starting with 2-3 dblades and then selling them as required to build more inventory space.
Obviously getting ruby+nega/chainmail is more cost efficient in terms of absorbing damage, but who says you can't go 2 dblades and nega/chainmail depending on which kind of damage you're dying to the most? I definitely think it's viable just on the theory alone, but I haven't tested it out at all.
That's the thing. You -start- with 3 dblades because they are more efficient early game, you don't get 3k worth of items and then start getting dblades. 100 extra hp and 10 extra damage when your base hp is 450 and your base damage is 50? Awesome. The same deal at 2k hp and 150 damage? Not as impressive.
Suppose you get 2 dblades. Your inventory is 4 slots full + green wards, which means you only have one more slot to use before you have to start selling them. Ruby crystal + longsword give you the same stats (minus the lifesteal), for the same money, AND they build into a phage (freeing a slot) and possibly mallet late game.
There's honestly, imho, no reason at all to get 2 dblades instead of ruby + longsword at that stage of the game.
On September 01 2011 14:13 Lanzoma wrote: That's the thing. You -start- with 3 dblades because they are more efficient early game, you don't get 3k worth of items and then start getting dblades. 100 extra hp and 10 extra damage when your base hp is 450 and your base damage is 50? Awesome. The same deal at 2k hp and 150 damage? Not as impressive.
Suppose you get 2 dblades. Your inventory is 4 slots full + green wards, which means you only have one more slot to use before you have to start selling them. Ruby crystal + longsword give you the same stats (minus the lifesteal), for the same money, AND they build into a phage (freeing a slot) and possibly mallet late game.
There's honestly, imho, no reason at all to get 2 dblades instead of ruby + longsword at that stage of the game.
some math for ya:
ruby + longsword = 180hp 10 dmg (+ 60g)
2dblades = 200hp 20 dmg 6% lifesteal
When you come out of the jungle with mercs and wriggles then SHIT IS ON. Everything that happens now is gamedeciding. Doing more damage and having more survivability is pretty viable imo. Not saying that getting dblades is allways the best thing but its certainly not bad or anything like that because it gives you an advantage for the next 5-10mins, while your ganking, warding and saving some money for your giants belt. Yes it is a shortterm investment but if you can do sth with it (and as a jungler you can definitely do sth with it) then it's certainly worth it.
My conclusion is: both builds are viable and have their advantages. It depends on the gameflow how many dblades (0-3) you should get after mercs and wriggles.
On September 01 2011 22:43 clickrush wrote: My conclusion is: both builds are viable and have their advantages. It depends on the gameflow how many dblades (0-3) you should get after mercs and wriggles.
I've been jungling on Lee Sin for a while now, and I feel this pretty much sums up how I go about the Dorans as well. There are so many situations where adding a few dorans makes your midgame so much more powerful. I do feel if you go this route, you need to do some heavy damage, or you're delaying your big followup items by too much.
Personally I like going Wriggles - lvl 1 boots - HoG in many situations where my ganks aren't vital to stay in the game; if we have the lanes decently under control and kills aren't abundant I feel this is the perfect way to get ahead. As soon as I see some lanes in trouble I'll be adding Dorans, Hexdrinker (if some AP gets ahead) or Brutalizer. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Phage unless I intend to build it into Mallet or Trinity, which isn't very often the case.
Then again I also feel it depends a lot on the team setup you have. In many cases there won't be another tank on the team (AP top, or some offensive building bruiser) and that makes Lee a very squishy target if not built to last. In this case going very defensive feels like a better way to go about it - getting that faster hp belt, negatron or armour seems to work out best for me as surviving and disrupting seems a lot more important than the sheer damage Lee is capable of.
Lastly I've been watching Cruzerthebruzer stream Lee Sin quite a bit (mostly laning though) and the Gunblade seems like a really strong item as well. I'm contemplating getting this early on, as the Cutlass alone will make ganks that much more scary.
(As I've been just a lurker here up til now, I'm playing on EUw at around 1600 elo - just to put my opinion and experience in perspective. Also, hi!)
yeah I feel that gunblade is the nr1 big AD item to get on lee. Some time ago ppl called it a troll item but its amazing how well it works on him. The issue with the item is that you often have to get sth more defensive to be more flexible and durable. But if you can get away with a major AD item then get gunblade. Its crazy how much life you get back with a spell combo on lee if you have WW activated and gunblade in your inventory.
RE: The Dblade discussion. Since getting two dblades after wrigs/mercs is a temporary solution, you're essentially renting stats, with intent to sell later. So why not buy a longsword and a fort elixir? instead of eating potentially 474g in cost on the dblades, you're only eating 250, while getting essentially the same stats for 4 minutes, and freeing an item slot for wards or w/e.
Gunblade is a real item on LS, but I think it's only viable going immediately for it in lane, since you won't have nearly enough farm out of the jungle. The only way it might work coming out of the jungle would be to make the bilgewater cutlass first (assisting in ganks with the slow), a giants belt for survivability which aims for a frozen mallet, and then finish up the gunblade.
But yeah, sick item. I rushed it out of lane last time I played solo top LS and picked up a few kills early, and damn, I was a force to be reckoned with in teamfights.
Wriggles gives you 5 gold/10 worth of wards. dblades are fantastic early game especially if you need the health to survive bursts in ganks, e.g vs mordekaizer or brand. No need for dblades unless you have something in mind to use them though.
Gunblade is bad on jungle lee sin since its extremely cost inefficient until you finish the gunblade. Spell vamp, lifesteal and ap are all pretty much useless on him. (junglers aren\t tanky and farmed enough to be able to make high lifesteal useful). Better to go warmogs and build to atmas to let you be tanky enough to go for squishies all the time making your less AD count for more.
Wriggles+Hog+Avarice is good if you get fed early but don't want to get a fast blood thirster on him. Brutalizer adds a lot to your damage and you can convert to a ghostblade later to increase your build/ (Real tricky to keep passive rolling with ghostblade active, but it still gives goodish stats).
Not sold on avarice yet, need to test it more. Might be worth just skipping it and going brultaizer+hog-->phage hex drinker mallet atmas and stuff.
On September 02 2011 01:35 Slayer91 wrote: Spell vamp, lifesteal and ap are all pretty much useless on him. (junglers aren\t tanky and farmed enough to be able to make high lifesteal useful). Better to go warmogs and build to atmas to let you be tanky enough to go for squishies all the time making your less AD count for more.
Spell vamp, lifesteal, and ap are all ridiculously good on Lee Sin, l0l. His W already grants 25% lifesteal/spell vamp, and the extra from Gunblade makes him gain an unbelievable amount of health from using skills like his E. Imagine having your W+W active, and using your E right in the middle of a bunch of enemies. 300 damage to at least 4 enemy heroes, 50% total spell vamp, that's a heal for 600 right there..... Plus you heal off the magic damage from Bilgewater Cutlass.
The AP is very much an "extra" that comes with the item, but the ratio on his shield is so nice that LS uses it well anyway. Also, his AD ratios are amazing, which further helps him scale off the stats that Gunblade provides.
I'm not saying that gunblade es #1 jungle item, I'm saying that it's definitely viable to build if you get a few kills and are ahead of the enemy team.
Warmogs out of the jungle is in the same category as gunblade - don't get it unless you got a few kills and are ahead, since you won't have enough farm to do it fast enough in an even game. Frozen Mallet is better in that situation imo.
Pure theorycrafting nonsense. Good luck finding 4 people with no magic resist, when if you use W+W and E you are already almost out of energy and just used your escape, you will have like 2000 health and will be instantly bursted down anyway. If you are building squishy you pick people off or stay back, in each case you don't take too much damage and don't need the lifesteal. You still get 1 combo'd by their AP carry.
Warmogs is cheaper than frozen mallet, and gives more health, and gives regen which is highly underrated since it lets you absorb pokes well.
From my experience I am a much better asset to the team by building warmogs and less attack damage on lee sin as it allows me to get in the fight and prevent their carries from dealing damage to mine. If you are squishy you rely on picking someone off but your time in the fight is much lower and you're not the best champion for 1 comboing somebody anyway.
Lifesteal is good on tanky people. Thats why people build tanky on warwick. You stay in the fight heal tons and have enough resists and health that they can't focus you easily, but if they leave only say a not overfarmed AD carry to hit you you won't end up dying. AD lee sin is a fast 1 combo and W out, you won't be able to use your W to get the lifesteal and certainly won't be staying in the fight long enough to lifesteal unless you are hiting their tanks/bruisers.
The only reason to get frozen mallet is if you already builded a phage and want a giants belt and you just complete it to convert the slot. It's not very cost efficient since lee sin doesn't need the slow insanely badly. I'm beginning to question getting stuff like phage and brutalizer before warmogs unless there's another very tanky guy who I can let go in first.
The problem is finding a good situation where you are low health but didn't die and can sucessfully QRQ someone note worthy. I don't see how to plan to stay alive at half health in melee range to a squishy long enough to QRQ them as a 2k health level 16 jungler when everyone else is level 18.
Seems like akali is much better suited to the style of play of waiting and going in on squishies when they used their CDs. Lee sin has a tougher time getting jumps on people without letting people damage him. Normally you want to soak damage for your team and just generally be bruiser who can get out of anything but using W strictly as an escape skill.
In a typical scenario which both teams bruisers go for squishies say someone initiates and nocturne counter ults lee sin wins this type of fight because He W's away and helps finish their bruisers while you are safely out of harm and their team is somewhat out of position.
Gunblade is fine and dandy if you got massively fed, have no immediate threats, and just want to end the game right there. Again, just because an item path makes sense once every 12 full moons doesn't mean it's the awesomesauce. It doesn't fit your role as jungle sin, and you're just asking to get insta-bursted in a teamfight.
yeah lets be honest. Most of the times I finish longer games with wriggles, mercs, warmog/mallet, negatron, chainmail. I assume I'am not the only one. But after upgrading negatron and chainmail, then the most valuable item to aim for would be gunblade in 70% of the time while the other 30% would be LW/another tank item.
Btw talking about the "bruisers aim for squishies"-thing: This is valuable information from slayer91. Jumping with W to your carry(ies) and help them killing the enemy assassin or tank/bruiser/fighter/what ever its called is often a good thing, since both E and R are very suited for this.
treeeskimo went from 2000 to 2200 or something like that building gunblade lee sin
it's more of an assassin build... it's fine I think although I usually go tank. Lee Sin is pretty op, so as far as I can tell you can build him to provide any type of threat you want and if you play well it'll work.
It's fine if you're going solo lane, but already investing so much into wriggles for lifesteal and being underfarmed/leveled as a jungler I think its totally unreasonable.
You really want lifesteal on lee sin if you are laning anyway unless you're rushing warmogs for regen, but flat hp is bad for laning in general.
I really do prefer to build him tanky. Q scaling with % missing health on the enemy means you become more dangerous the longer they're alive, so you need to survive to that point. He's not as bursty as my main love Akali, but he's way more mobile.
Flat AD on him is nice, but getting Atma's and building tougher is just waaay too good for him in my mind.
On September 02 2011 03:58 UniversalSnip wrote: treeeskimo went from 2000 to 2200 or something like that building gunblade lee sin
it's more of an assassin build... it's fine I think although I usually go tank. Lee Sin is pretty op, so as far as I can tell you can build him to provide any type of threat you want and if you play well it'll work.
Jungling, or laning? On lane Lee Sin, Gunblade is a lot more defensible given how much faster and more reliably you get farm.
One of the main things I dislike about Gunblade is that you don't get a huge chunk of it's value till you finish it. The recipe itself is giving you 35 AP, 25 AD, 5% Lifesteal, and 10% Spellvamp for 600 gold. That's a RIDICULOUS value, but unless you get to finish Gunblade, you don't benefit from that--Revolver and Cutlass are really mediocre AP/AD items by themselves. On a jungler, you're not guaranteed to see the 6400 needed for Wriggles + Mercs + Gunblade in a reasonable amount of time unless you get really fed. If you're fighting midgame fights with just the Gunblade components, you're really not getting your money's worth at all. As such it's much more reliable for you to plan around items that are cost-effective at a lower price point.
yeah I just finished a very long game with him starting from the jungle. They had a double ap and I farmed a warmog and double negatron and then chainmail. I never even finished atmas but they could still not ignore me. The utility and damage he does with just wriggles+redbuff is enough if your bound to soak up alot of damage.
On September 02 2011 03:58 UniversalSnip wrote: treeeskimo went from 2000 to 2200 or something like that building gunblade lee sin
it's more of an assassin build... it's fine I think although I usually go tank. Lee Sin is pretty op, so as far as I can tell you can build him to provide any type of threat you want and if you play well it'll work.
Jungling, or laning? On lane Lee Sin, Gunblade is a lot more defensible given how much faster and more reliably you get farm.
On September 02 2011 03:58 UniversalSnip wrote: treeeskimo went from 2000 to 2200 or something like that building gunblade lee sin
it's more of an assassin build... it's fine I think although I usually go tank. Lee Sin is pretty op, so as far as I can tell you can build him to provide any type of threat you want and if you play well it'll work.
Jungling, or laning? On lane Lee Sin, Gunblade is a lot more defensible given how much faster and more reliably you get farm.
he was jungling
I'm curious how he was getting enough farm for it without abnormally successful ganks, or taking significant amounts of farm that would have been better on his laners.
At IEM, Saint and TOO were finishing entire games with something like Wriggles+Mercs+2DBlade+Hexdrinker or Wriggles+Mercs+Mallet+Hexdrinker parts--if they'd gotten Gunblade instead of the other items after Wriggles+Mercs, they would barely have finished it at the end of a won game. How can you justify Gunblade if you're not guaranteed to even finish it, let alone have it for meaningful fights?
On September 02 2011 03:58 UniversalSnip wrote: treeeskimo went from 2000 to 2200 or something like that building gunblade lee sin
it's more of an assassin build... it's fine I think although I usually go tank. Lee Sin is pretty op, so as far as I can tell you can build him to provide any type of threat you want and if you play well it'll work.
Jungling, or laning? On lane Lee Sin, Gunblade is a lot more defensible given how much faster and more reliably you get farm.
he was jungling
I'm curious how he was getting enough farm for it without abnormally successful ganks, or taking significant amounts of farm that would have been better on his laners.
At IEM, Saint and TOO were finishing entire games with something like Wriggles+Mercs+2DBlade+Hexdrinker or Wriggles+Mercs+Mallet+Hexdrinker parts--if they'd gotten Gunblade instead of the other items after Wriggles+Mercs, they would barely have finished it at the end of a won game. How can you justify Gunblade if you're not guaranteed to even finish it, let alone have it for meaningful fights?
I've bought Lee Sin a while ago but played him a little more recently.
I've had quite good success with a little more tanky build in the beginning, going towards AD/Crit/Lifeleech later.
Usually I start with Doran's Shield because it always helps me to stay in lane longer. Maybe I should try Regrowth Pendant though, since it would play better into my item build.
Next item I get is Mercury's Threads.
Then I'm building towards Warmog's Armor (hence the Rewgroth Pendant).
After I finish Warmog's I get Brutalizer.
Depending on the game I then get Bloodthirster/Atma's Impaler or build Brutalizer into Yoomu's Ghostblade. If I got Bloodthirster/Atma's Impaler, I get Yoomu's Ghostblade next.
Usually the game is over by then, if not I just get any AD item I feel like e.g. Inifinty Edge or Black Cleaver.
Yesterday I had a game where I was 0/0/0 for a long time (around 15 minute mark, had to go solo top against Ryze and someone else I can't recall right now) and still ended the game with 13/1/18 using the above items.
For skills I usually focus on Sonic Wave and try to keep Safeguard and Tempest on equal levels whenever I can't put points in Sonic Wave or Ulti.
I'm starting to both love and hate Lee Sin, depending on what side he's on :D
Part of me screams "how is it fair that someone that mobile with that much burst can be so tanky?!". Then I lol and watch as he annihilates a 2v1.
He's very good, I might buy him. I need an AD carry as well as a tanky-DPS to round out my character group, and Lee Sin seems to fit quite well. Him or Irelia, I haven't quite yet chosen. Haven't had a chance to play Irelia, though.
So I just picked up Lee Sin as a new jungler (Skarner is fun, but wanted variety).
I feel that he vibes with the new jungle pretty well. Maybe not as much as Skarner or Udyr, but EQWQ with Vamp Scepter start has me at 3 and ready for a gank pretty quickly.
I've been going Wriggles + Merc's -> Atmog's -> (BT and TF for damage)/(FoN for MR)/(Frozen Heart or Randuin's for Armor) basic tanky-dps build, which has worked for me so far.
He's proven to be a great duelist, especially against heavy counter-junglers, good ganker (as long as you hit Q), and a decent passive farmer if no ganks are available. However, I feel that he's not as useful late game as some others. If you hit a good R, you can help a team fight, and Q can chase and kill runners, but aside from that he doesn't seem to have the heavy damage, tankiness, or AoE that a lot of late game team fights require. Possibly just because I'm not using him right, but just my quick point of view.
I have the same feelings as Requizen. As a newish LoL player (summoner level 25, never played Dota/etc.) I *love* Lee Sin's versatility and the challenge of using his skills well in fights, but I have trouble making him work for me late-game.
Jungling works fine, ganking is OK (I miss the Q too often), but late-game I feel like the only contribution I make to team fights is using the ultimate. I usually end up with Karma-like scores: Plenty of assists, but few kills, and I wonder if I'm actually carrying my weight in team fights.
Is this normal for Lee Sin or am I doing it wrong? I also jungled Nocturne before Lee Sin, and I found it *much* easier to get kills on my own as Nocturne in mid/late-game. His ultimate and w makes it so easy to pick off careless squishies, while with Lee Sin it just doesn't happen often.
Or are there any good VODs showing strong Lee Sin players that I could watch? Just to get an idea of how people play him effectively.
I noticed that in 3v3s (haven't played many yet) I usually stomp the enemy team as Lee Sin, it's only in 5v5 that I feel useless. The smaller terrain in 3v3 makes his abilities so much more relevant (or so it feels to me).
Finally, for people who say he's very strong solo top: How would you lane against anyone tanky with CC, like Sion? (That's the one lane opponent I've had no idea how to play against, so far)
Lategame Lee Sin isn't about getting kills. His E brings incredible utility to teamfights, and his R can kick away enemy global ults that are going to ruin your team or peeling people off your carries. I always build Lee Sin tanky because I think his E is just ridiculously strong in teamfights.
I don't really understand how you guys think Lee Sin isn't tanky. He has a lot of inherit tankiness and if you go wriggles -> warmogs -> atma, then you get really beefy with your shield + e attack speed debuff.
Lee Sin utility is so good late game. With his E proc, he slows movement and attack speed by 60%. Couple that with Randuins, and you have a completely useless AD carry. Really good initiator as well.
Hate to bump myself, but since nobody replied to my last question: How do you lane solo against someone like Sion? His stun owned me hard, and I don't see what to do against him other than tower hugging and missing out on last hits.
On January 06 2012 03:50 bmn wrote: Alright, thanks for the answers.
Hate to bump myself, but since nobody replied to my last question: How do you lane solo against someone like Sion? His stun owned me hard, and I don't see what to do against him other than tower hugging and missing out on last hits.
It's about reacting to the lane after his shield is down. Last hit with your Q if you can. When Sion has blown his shield, make sure your kit is up. W onto any surviving melee minion, EE and start doing some harassment. Try to land a good QQ and go back into passive mode.
There isn't much you can do while Sion has his QW both up. Eating a Q is ok if you can deal some damage too, you have some sustain pre-6, he doesn't.
Dude, Lee Sin is hard =( Up till now I was facerolling (or rather, smashing my flat hand on the keyboard) Skarner to victory... but hell I have to THINK and plan with this hero :D :D :D
Skillshot? Ability that interacts with allies? Having to time abilities to max dps? Finite resources? Having cooldowns?? Why would you play THAT?
Anyway - for those who are having trouble ganking with Lee, the trick is to delay your Q as much as possible. In other words, wait for your ally to cc first, or W to a nearby creep or ward, or even just run up to him from behind and EE first. If you land your E while still saving your Q, you should have a successful gank. This can secure kills even through flash and other blinks.
On January 05 2012 09:12 koreasilver wrote: Lategame Lee Sin isn't about getting kills. His E brings incredible utility to teamfights, and his R can kick away enemy global ults that are going to ruin your team or peeling people off your carries. I always build Lee Sin tanky because I think his E is just ridiculously strong in teamfights.
I don't really understand how you guys think Lee Sin isn't tanky. He has a lot of inherit tankiness and if you go wriggles -> warmogs -> atma, then you get really beefy with your shield + e attack speed debuff.
edit: and trinity force is bad.
Why is trinity force bad, other than it's 4k gold being spent on stuff that doesnt make you tanky (theres times you have this gold to spend) - nearly all the stats on it are useful to you, aside from the mana obviously.
Also, why is atmogs the "standard" for lee sin and not flat resists? I guess he gets both a shield (makes resists attractive) and defenses (makes +HP attractive) from his W, but I always felt like the shield was the more noticable of the two effects.
I've also been wondering which tank items to get on jungle lee sin - Warmog's takes too long to farm, and Frozen Mallet seems ok but I don't feel like I really use the slow effect. Is Atma's still an efficient item if my health items are something like Aegis + HoG or some DBlades?
Lee's kit is more similar to Nocturne than Udyr/Skarner/WW. Lee will dive into the heart of their team, use his abilities, then get out with his W. Unlike Udyr/Skarner, which spam their shields on cd, Lee's shield is a long cd and mainly used in team fights to reposition himself and to save teammates. Unlike WW he can't rely on his abilities to lifesteal and keep his hp up. HP is more efficient than resists when you have just wriggles and boots, so the first tank item you build on Lee will always be an HP item.
Many times you can't afford Warmog and will opt Aegis instead. Atma is still perfectly fine since you'll have 2500+ hp and will be building more. (Randuin's and Thornmail are much more situational and don't add damage, and you won't build Frozen Heart.)
What do you people get for him? I tend to go Wriggles, Boots and Giant Belt and buy a lot of wards since nobody at my Elo buys wards and my Warmogs is kinda late any good suggestions to avoid this? I know more succesful ganks would help but people never follow up my ganks and I usually fail many of them.
Following that you can get Warmogs->Atmas to be really tanky, or Phage->Frozen Mallet->Atmas to do more damage and be more disruptive. Some people get brutalizer, which can be good, but you should only get it if you're super fed and you want to extend your lead even more.
Follow up items are usually Last Whisper, Bloodthirster, and/or situational tank items. You get tanky items to make you stay alive and be able to be as disruptive as possible, but Lee Sin is already quite tanky with his W. Last Whisper is pretty standard 5th or 6th item since Lee Sin does a lot of damage and LW will let you penetrate armor. Bloodthirster is nice if you're fed since LS has such amazing ratios and will let you snowball harder, but is a risky investment. You can also get HoG if you're falling behind early. Aegis is also a strong item on Lee Sin, but I personally don't like to get it on him very much in solo queue; in arranged Aegis is amazing.
This attack speed nerf is no fun that is upcoming in the patch T_T I really hope the nerf is not severe as he is definitely my fav champ. TBH, this is a much bigger change than the 20% nerf on the 2nd part of his Q. Executioner already is giving a 6% bonus dmg, was better than havoc in teh old offensive mastery tree anyways. This lowering of Lee's DPS is sad as is will make hitting people before they run out of auto attack range that much harder when ganking in lane or laning in general. Moreover, flurry's current passive allows you to get in a virtually free auto attack after you gap close with any of lee's non-ulti skills. This allowed for an easy 2 free auto attacks to the 1 of your opponent. Hopefully this dynamic will nto be changed due tot he flurry passive changed but I am concerned..
edit: looking at the Patch Notes for Ziggs and the nerfs are not as bad as I feared.
Lee Sin
Flurry attack speed bonus reduced to 40% from 50% Sonic Wave missing health damage reduced to 8% from 10%
40% free attack speed steroid is still really, really good. Sonic Wave is the only part that lost 2% dmg of missing health. I was under the impression that it was Resonating Strike, the 2nd activated part of Q that did the bonus dmg based on % hp missing. Am dl'ing patch now to check this out.
I've been playing Lee Sin in top lane for a few games and it's pretty fun, but I had huge huge trouble versus Riven in a pretty recent game. Any tips on how to do this lane?
Lane lee sin is basically max Q if you want to dominate your lane. Max W for hard lanes or to sustain. One point in E is good for supporting ganks. Itemization is more or less identical to jungle lee sin.
Anyone know the runes/masteries/skill order for Voyboy's Lee Sin top? I normally jungle him but my friend is going to main jungle, and I'd like to learn him top
Voyboy runes ad reds, armor yellows, mr blues, mspd quints. Masteries should be 21/9/0. Skill order is situational. Generally you want to max Q for more damage/lane dominance and max W for sustain. You only need 1 in E. In terms of items he gets a wriggles core. Everything else depends on the game. Viable items are Hexdrinker->Max, Phage->Fratmas, GA, Randuins, Bruta->Ghostblade, etc...
He actually did 21 defense last I checked. Might have been vs a specific hero he was facing but I found that pretty interesting. I'd recommend 21 offense though. He runs AD quints, not mspd quints lol.
On March 24 2012 09:34 HazMat wrote: He actually did 21 defense last I checked. Might have been vs a specific hero he was facing but I found that pretty interesting. I'd recommend 21 offense though. He runs AD quints, not mspd quints lol.
I looked through all of voyboy's rune pages. unless he's using the same rune pages as the ones for renekton/jax/kayle, etc... the only other rune pages that make sense have movespeed. The only pages he has that have AD quints are for renekton and skarner and those are aspd/ad pages and attack speed doesn't make all that much sense on Lee Sin. I could be wrong though.
From what I've seen of Lee Sin play it's fairly accurate. However Mogs, Atma's, and Trinity have all fallen out of favor in general. Lane lee sin can build wriggles, hexdrinker, brutalizer, definitely phage/frozen mallet + additional tankiness and/or a BT thrown in there if you're way ahead. Jungle Lee sin actually seems extremely similar except that as a jungler he gets less farm than solo top. Still a great jungler nowadays.
As for skill order the only difference I see is that nowadays W is often prioritized first for laning since it's sustain and after all the nerfs Lee's sustain is pretty good. It's not what you do in every matchup but it works in many of them.
On April 20 2012 10:29 AleKSei23 wrote: Hi there im wondering if what is written in the first page of this thread is still considered viable as item suggestions, skill order, etc...
Sorry for bumping this.
I want to learn jungling and still wondering what champ is better
don't worry about bumping. as long as it's not pointless and you have legit questions/thoughts bump away!
The stuff in the OP is generally accurate. A few changes:
Masteries: Those are the old mastery trees in the OP. New masteries are usually 21/9/0 or 9/21/0. It's mostly preference.
Summoner spells: Exhaust is almost mandatory now. Flash is nice, but it's not necessary, especially if you get wriggles as you can ward hop so having a wriggles/ward in your inventory is basically a free flash. Common summoners setups are exhaust/smite for jungling or flash/exhaust for laning
For skill build, R>Q>W>E is solid and you can't go wrong with that. But sometimes it may be better to max E over Q in lane. Or maybe even W max first if you are in a tough lane and really really need the sustain. But for the most part, R>Q>W>E will work no matter what.
Items: Warmogs/Atmas has fallen out of favor after all the nerfs. Frozen Mallet is very common on Lee Sin. Wriggles is absolute core imo, but some people prefer to stack dblades instead of or in addition to wriggles for more damage and lifesteal. Don't get gunblade. It used to be good before it got nerfed, but it's not a good item on Lee Sin anymore. Hexdrinker into Maw is very solid, especially against double AP comps. Also, come late game if you find that you need damage above all else, consider getting a Last Whisper. The armor pen does wonders for your dps. I also don't like Triforce, it's a lot of gold for not much gain.
Starting items: Cloth 5 or Boots 3. Boots is good for ganking and (relatively) easy lanes. Cloth is better for counterjungling, dueling, and harder lanes. You can also start dblade, but it's much riskier.
In terms of good/common junglers, pick from Udyr, Shyvana, Mundo, Lee Sin, Nautilus, Maokai in no particular order of strength (altho out of those 6, Mao is probably the weakest atm). Rammus and Shaco are good pub stompers, but aren't all that great against better players. Some more unconventional junglers like Alistar and Twitch can be good when played properly but they're a bit funky.
Hi I'm looking to pick up Lee sin solo top in a couple days once I've got enough IP to purchase him. A question: Should marks be attack damage over armor pen? I'm just so used to people telling me to get apen I wanted to ask what the reasoning for this is. Also, R>W>Q>E for solo top always? Or how do I make the distinction?
Also, with the gap closers and stuff is flash necessary, should I go something like heal/ignite to dominate the lane?
Lee Sin looks pretty hard, looking forward to the challenge, just recently finally got to level 30
I do flat AD on marks and quints just because it helps you last hit and bully the lane (Q E R all scale with AD). I go R>W>Q>E pretty much every lane unless I'm crushing then I stop putting points into W and go get Q to 5 and then finish leveling W.
Flash isn't necessary but it opens up a lot of combos such as ward safeguard -> flash -> dragon kick. I get it always.
If against Tryndamere, for instance, who relies heavily on autoattacking to trade effectively with you in the laning phase, maxing E first as Lee Sin mitigates a large amount of his damage when trading and also makes it easier to push the lane when necessary. Maxing E first also works against less common melee carries such as Yi and Fiora due to their reliance on autoattacks. This also helps you shut them down in early teamfight situations such as when both of you are with your teams at a dragon fight. This sort of utility makes Lee Sin a counter to autoattack reliant melee carry champions.
Is lee sin bad late game? I'm not high elo (1500), but I've had multiple games where I have many successful ganks early and our team will get ahead by 10-15 kills, but late game we still lose. I've gone 9-0 in the first 20 minutes and our team has still lost. I main jungling and I've never had this problem with any other jungler. With skarner, for example, I've carried teams of 4 feeders pretty much completely by myself. My build is no different than the one described in the OP. Maybe some of you can give advice on how best to use lee in late game team fights?
You have to realize jungle Lee's damage falls off late but his utility is still second to none. This means in late fights you want to use your spells best you can instead of doing as much damage. Some examples:
Use your ulti to take out a hero out of a fight. AD carries are a good choice but most of them can come back to fight. If you kick someone like Kennen when he ults then you pretty much won your team the game. Look for good times to displace someone with dragon kick. You can also stop channels with it, remember that. Use your wither to slow... self explanatory. Use ward hop into dragonkick to catch people out of position and start a good fight that way. Use safeguard to save teammates and to reposition yourself. You can W to ally and then Q to enemy and completely change where you are in a teamfight.
Lee Sin is also great at catching people so you can group with your team and just roam around picking people off. Ward baiting is great here. Place down a ward and let an enemy with oracles clean it up. W to the ward and catch him for a free kill and oracles.
Are there general tips/champs good for fighting against a Lee Sin top?
I lost to one yesterday as Jax, but I played badly (mistimed a lot of last hits at the beginning), and he was better than me anyway, plus when our junglers both ganked he got a kill and me only an assist (off each other). Still, as I was thinking about it during the game, and even after, I had no idea how to fight.
I guess Lee wants to "engage" by auto-ing you, and using E if you try to retaliate, either fleeing with W if you're winning or chasing with QQ if you disengage then Wing to a creep before you can retaliate. Dodging Q and waiting for his shield to wear off before you blow spells on him is pretty intuitive, but the "avoid his E" part is easier to say than to accomplish, especially when you want to farm in melee range you have to expose yourself to him, even with the low range on E.
How's your jungle Lee build these days? I've been experimenting with thesetwo builds and I honestly can't really decide wether the offensive or the defensive options are better. I tend to think that the slow+shield of Phage+Hexdrinker should outweigh the defensive stats of Aegis, but the early Aegis is SO strong in teamfights.
On June 07 2012 23:26 Shiv. wrote: How's your jungle Lee build these days? I've been experimenting with thesetwo builds and I honestly can't really decide wether the offensive or the defensive options are better. I tend to think that the slow+shield of Phage+Hexdrinker should outweigh the defensive stats of Aegis, but the early Aegis is SO strong in teamfights.
i like wriggles 2dlbades then aegis personally. then a page sometime after
On June 08 2012 03:33 bokeevboke wrote: Just bought him. Really difficult to learn, Lee is very different from other champs.
so far wriggles, mercuries, hex and phage are working well. late game kinda sucks though.But its noob me i guess.
lee sin's lategame just blows, in late game, all you'll be doing is shielding, using your ulti to peal, and de-buffing enemy carry w/ cripple. but don't expect to do mindblowing dmg.
double dorans into phage and hexdrinker is what my build has stabilized into. wriggles and aegis just doesn't feel like it does enough damage for you to really be effective imo. if you have a high-damage team or something i could see it being the better option though. it's actually not that hard to stay relevant lategame if you get a LW. at the very least you'll still destroy squishies np, which is (most likely) your job. i wouldn't get it in games where you're peeling rather than diving though.
Wriggles is a must and core on someone like Lee because of the proc. You kill dragon and baron faster. I personally prefer what Diamondprox does on his Lee Sin. He goes cloth 5 or boots 3 into wriggles and a aegis. He's been experimenting with HoG as well since it's a gp5 item and it's end game randuins is huge on Lee because of how tanky he becomes. Proceed to build a Frozen mallet, randuins, and if you need the early game mr get a hex.
You're looking at around 200+ armor on Lee with these items and it's hard to kill you with that much hp from the mallet as well.
Not sure I like dorans on Lee that much, especially after the nerf. That said, if I get an early lead and/or sense that the team comp requires me to be especially relevant in the midgame, I'll buy them.
Otherwise I'll go wriggles -> phage -> brutalizer / aegis / hexdrinker. If you're farming constantly, I find that this build makes you pretty effective right when team fights usually start.
On June 08 2012 12:56 Jaxtyk wrote: Wriggles is a must and core on someone like Lee because of the proc. You kill dragon and baron faster. I personally prefer what Diamondprox does on his Lee Sin. He goes cloth 5 or boots 3 into wriggles and a aegis. He's been experimenting with HoG as well since it's a gp5 item and it's end game randuins is huge on Lee because of how tanky he becomes. Proceed to build a Frozen mallet, randuins, and if you need the early game mr get a hex.
You're looking at around 200+ armor on Lee with these items and it's hard to kill you with that much hp from the mallet as well.
I disagree strongly on wriggles being core on jungle Lee. He does not at all need the life steal, and his clears are fast as heck with 2 dorans. Try boots > 2 dorans > whatever, it's powerful. He'll deal toplaner damage and still clear jungle with no sweat, and is way more useful in teamfights than when building wriggles. Don't get me wrong, wriggle's is an amazing item, it's just way too expensive when 2 dorans is 950g.
I think wriggles suits lee sin on the level of his teamfighting being a mostly defensive bruiser until oppurtunities show up. He can use his shield and slow and ult to peel far better than most, and the lifesteal and armour on w combined with wriggles gives sick sustain for healing up safely on some guy in the back of the teamfight trying to dive your carry. You still has the option to W to teammembers and land a q on a squishy and burst them but it's not always possible and that's the type of thing top lane lees go for more with the additional levels and gold they have higher burst and higher survivability. I think wriggles suits jungle lee decently however it's not a must have item.
The ward hopping is just another plus that lee sin benefits from really well. The ward hopping + nearly 50% lifesteal at max W (I like to max it first but ~I'm not the best lee sin by far LOL) is insanely fun.
Wriggles isn't necessary but Lee is pretty meh for tanking dragon. It also means you finish baron incredibly quick. The armor it gives is great (better shields!~) and combined with his lifesteal/spellvamp from W, it lets Lee get back to full health incredibly fast in jungle after a gank.
On June 08 2012 12:56 Jaxtyk wrote: Wriggles is a must and core on someone like Lee because of the proc. You kill dragon and baron faster. I personally prefer what Diamondprox does on his Lee Sin. He goes cloth 5 or boots 3 into wriggles and a aegis. He's been experimenting with HoG as well since it's a gp5 item and it's end game randuins is huge on Lee because of how tanky he becomes. Proceed to build a Frozen mallet, randuins, and if you need the early game mr get a hex.
You're looking at around 200+ armor on Lee with these items and it's hard to kill you with that much hp from the mallet as well.
I disagree strongly on wriggles being core on jungle Lee. He does not at all need the life steal, and his clears are fast as heck with 2 dorans. Try boots > 2 dorans > whatever, it's powerful. He'll deal toplaner damage and still clear jungle with no sweat, and is way more useful in teamfights than when building wriggles. Don't get me wrong, wriggle's is an amazing item, it's just way too expensive when 2 dorans is 950g.
ya i agree. 2 dorans is much better then wriggles imo. i go boots - 2x doran - hog - fromal - BT/LW in either order. this is out of the jungle and assuming you arent the main tank for your team. you do fairly ridicuous damage all game long.
On June 09 2012 01:07 Mauzel wrote: Wriggles isn't necessary but Lee is pretty meh for tanking dragon. It also means you finish baron incredibly quick. The armor it gives is great (better shields!~) and combined with his lifesteal/spellvamp from W, it lets Lee get back to full health incredibly fast in jungle after a gank.
How exactly is Lee meh for tanking dragon? The kid was able to SOLO dragon at level 4 with just double Doran's back when they were at 100 HP a piece. Also, between the shield of his W, the life steal and the spellvamp especially of Q-AA-AA-Q, I don't see how he's NOT good at tanking dragon.
Finishing baron more quickly is neat, but I rarely if ever race for baron. Generally, you take it after you caught someone off guard and got a numbers advantage, so I don't care as much for speed. It's cool if you do a 15 minute 2 man baron, though.
On August 17 2012 17:59 AceLight wrote: Is Toplane/Jungle AD Lee Sin Viable?
If you mean building PURELY AD items like IE, PD no.
Bruiser AD items though, building like an AD assassin works however
Mercs Bloodthirster Last whisper Maw Guardian Angel Aegis/other survivability item
This is for toplane. Jungle, there's no way you're getting fed enough to get any of that.
I've never seen a lee sin top lane build that way. I rarely see like 1-2 purely offensive items like BT or LW and in most cases they built only 1-3 hybrid tank items like atmas/wriggles/mallet etc. and the rest pure tank. can you point to a player or some players who do such a build regulary? Also the order of those items seems to be out of place from my point of view.
On August 17 2012 17:59 AceLight wrote: Is Toplane/Jungle AD Lee Sin Viable?
If you mean building PURELY AD items like IE, PD no.
Bruiser AD items though, building like an AD assassin works however
Mercs Bloodthirster Last whisper Maw Guardian Angel Aegis/other survivability item
This is for toplane. Jungle, there's no way you're getting fed enough to get any of that.
I've never seen a lee sin top lane build that way. I rarely see like 1-2 purely offensive items like BT or LW and in most cases they built only 1-3 hybrid tank items like atmas/wriggles/mallet etc. and the rest pure tank. can you point to a player or some players who do such a build regulary? Also the order of those items seems to be out of place from my point of view.
I'm pretty sure he just laid out items, not in any chronological way. Voyboy did some really aggressive Lee Sin builds the last couple of tournament games he had while on Dignitas. He built a BT like every game.
On August 17 2012 17:59 AceLight wrote: Is Toplane/Jungle AD Lee Sin Viable?
If you mean building PURELY AD items like IE, PD no.
Bruiser AD items though, building like an AD assassin works however
Mercs Bloodthirster Last whisper Maw Guardian Angel Aegis/other survivability item
This is for toplane. Jungle, there's no way you're getting fed enough to get any of that.
I've never seen a lee sin top lane build that way. I rarely see like 1-2 purely offensive items like BT or LW and in most cases they built only 1-3 hybrid tank items like atmas/wriggles/mallet etc. and the rest pure tank. can you point to a player or some players who do such a build regulary? Also the order of those items seems to be out of place from my point of view.
I'm pretty sure he just laid out items, not in any chronological way. Voyboy did some really aggressive Lee Sin builds the last couple of tournament games he had while on Dignitas. He built a BT like every game.
I can imagine a skilled player like Voyboy can pull off BT into tank items into LW.
When cruzer played Lee vs WE he went like Doran doran hexdrinker (vs vlad) phage -> Mallet Then the game was over. I think in tournament play you'd want more beef than BTLW gets you, even with all that AD you'll drop off a bit late game and you will want to be able to initiate and/or peel for your team. Can't play that squishy. It's really good in SoloQueue though.
On top lane Lee I've been doing double dblade, mercs, BT, Warmogs, GA, LW. I also max Q and then E leaving W at level 1. I don't do this against everyone though. There's some heroes like Riven who I have to level W and possibly get Wriggles against. It's been working out great for me though.
He can jungle with cloth+5. Route depends on where you think you want to gank, or if you just wanna farm the jungle early on because you don't have boots.
If you're gonna red gank you're gonna need peeps to whittle down the big wraith as you take it down, then some more help on the little ones. Get a healthy leash on red with with help from mid + adjacent lane to red. The best you can prob do is only burn 1 pot, unless you have a blitz pulling red back to starting position or something.
If you just wanna farm farm farm wolves > blue > wraiths > wolves > red > wraiths or minis or gank. Pretty standard. I guess runeless/masteryless lee sin will arrive to the repeated camps with the minions already having been respawned.
EQ for 1 and 2, rest on is very flexible on Lee Sin. You want W by 4 at the latest.
Someone with a better understanding should correct me otherwise.
Hmm. Been using Shake's Guide, but I really feel like my lvl 2 ganks are weak b/c i'm at such low HP. Does lee need stronger leashes than your average bear?
On November 10 2012 14:21 cLutZ wrote: Hmm. Been using Shake's Guide, but I really feel like my lvl 2 ganks are weak b/c i'm at such low HP. Does lee need stronger leashes than your average bear?
assuming you're not getting a smiteless pull, pot after wolves/wraiths then again. you should be fine.
On December 09 2012 19:27 TeuTeu wrote: And yet another lovely thing from the new patch. Sword of the Ruined King allows Lee to solo baron early. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKF0Ez-bNJ0
Doesn't seem unreasonable given how fed he is. Seriously, hes 2-3 levels above everyone else as Lee, and 11-1. And as Jax, hes 17-2. Hardly realistic scenarios
You updated the masteries, but left some of the season 2 descriptions. Which is really confusing because you mention unyielding (flat damage reduction against champions only) isn't that great, and then a few sentences later are talking about indomintable
Only noticed because I'm trying to learn Lee Sin in anticipation of the Rengar nerfs. Good grief this dude is hard. Getting a lot better though.
You updated the masteries, but left some of the season 2 descriptions. Which is really confusing because you mention unyielding (flat damage reduction against champions only) isn't that great, and then a few sentences later are talking about indomintable
Only noticed because I'm trying to learn Lee Sin in anticipation of the Rengar nerfs. Good grief this dude is hard. Getting a lot better though.
So tiamat/hydra on lee is really good, when you use the active it resets your attack animation and triggers your passive. I've just tried it on jungle lee where I build it after wriggles and boots, it really speeds up clearing and the vamp from aoe damage is significant. Dunno if it could work in the other lanes, would be nice to read if other players have tried it with or without success.
On December 14 2012 08:39 Kaldr wrote: So tiamat/hydra on lee is really good, when you use the active it resets your attack animation and triggers your passive. I've just tried it on jungle lee where I build it after wriggles and boots, it really speeds up clearing and the vamp from aoe damage is significant. Dunno if it could work in the other lanes, would be nice to read if other players have tried it with or without success.
I can't see such an offensive build working on the jungle, not enuf gold and exp. On solo lanes maybe, though what makes that better than BC?
Good question, after thinking about it I would say that tiamat:
Increase's your ability to push lanes and farm jungle quickly
Is cheaper by 700g
Gives the same amount of AD as BC but sooner
Provides amazing sustain when using the active and Iron Will
Although having considered these points I do think that BC is superior since the passive is amazing and provides better single target dps (even in its nerfed state).
Despite this I think a tiamat build is still worth exploring, it seems more suited for mid where you want to clear the lane fast to roam or clear wraiths/wolves.
As for being too offensive a jungle build I do think that rushing hydra is too much (1200g more for the full item), so ill stop doing that and build more ruby crystals haha.
On December 15 2012 03:45 Kaldr wrote: Good question, after thinking about it I would say that tiamat:
Increase's your ability to push lanes and farm jungle quickly
Is cheaper by 700g
Gives the same amount of AD as BC but sooner
Provides amazing sustain when using the active and Iron Will
Although having considered these points I do think that BC is superior since the passive is amazing and provides better single target dps (even in its nerfed state).
Despite this I think a tiamat build is still worth exploring, it seems more suited for mid where you want to clear the lane fast to roam or clear wraiths/wolves.
As for being too offensive a jungle build I do think that rushing hydra is too much (1200g more for the full item), so ill stop doing that and build more ruby crystals haha.
i can't even afford a wriggles on lee in the new jungle, kinda blows my mind people buy stuff afterward =]
On December 14 2012 08:39 Kaldr wrote: So tiamat/hydra on lee is really good, when you use the active it resets your attack animation and triggers your passive. I've just tried it on jungle lee where I build it after wriggles and boots, it really speeds up clearing and the vamp from aoe damage is significant. Dunno if it could work in the other lanes, would be nice to read if other players have tried it with or without success.
I can't see such an offensive build working on the jungle, not enuf gold and exp. On solo lanes maybe, though what makes that better than BC?
I've been trying out with a bit of success just going Boots>Wriggles>Aegis>LW>More Tankiness
Though I always feel really, really starved in the jungle if i'm not able to make alot of kills happen.
On December 17 2012 09:16 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: wriggles is trash now, just keep madreds razor until lategame
meh. I still get wriggles. Free ward is always useful and the sustain isn't bad either. Even after dragon buff wriggles lets you attempt dragon pretty early very safely.
On December 17 2012 13:53 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: i'll get it if i go back with 900 but the raised price on vamp is a huge bitch
yea, but the total cost of wriggles is the same since madreds has been reduced in price.
good point, but i'm really comfortable with getting razor+2ward+2-3pot first back and warding top, keeping the other for wardjump
it just feels really hard for me to get the 800 for a vamp scepter after that considering i still need boots and some survivability (ruby crystal for BC/aegis)
cost of wriggles may be the same but it feels way different in practice.
madreds in s2 gave you a decent amount of pvp damage for the cost along with some armor (also good for pvp). the current madreds gives you no pvp damage. furthermore, wriggles was a very cost effective upgrade from madreds which continued to give you more damage along with that ward which is great for lee sin who can use them for movement as well as sight.
madreds gives you no additional pvp damage now, you are further costwise from finishing the wriggles, and the pvp damage increase to go further is not much of a value. and as for the free ward, a sightstone is a much better deal.
i dont get it. alot of people say wriggles is better now and alot of people say its crap now. I find the fact that madreds is cheaper awesome. I allways found madreds rush on lee sin to be a strong opening.
Are AD reds still better than AS? I feel like the clearing difference from AS reds might be better than the AD now in S3, but I'm really not sure. I keep going back and forth.
On January 04 2013 04:54 upperbound wrote: Question for fellow jungle lee sins:
Are AD reds still better than AS? I feel like the clearing difference from AS reds might be better than the AD now in S3, but I'm really not sure. I keep going back and forth.
Lee's skills scale with AD, and I feel like the clear differences between AS and AD reds aren't really enough to justify having less oomph for ganks.
Safeguard no longer refunds energy when broken down from half refunded if broken. Iron Will's Life Steal and Spell Vamp increased to 5/10/15/20/25% from 5/9/13/17/21% Iron Will no longer grants bonus armor down from 10/15/20/25/30 armor.
On January 04 2013 11:57 Decypher wrote: I have bad news guys. Lee Sin Nerfs:
Safeguard no longer refunds energy when broken down from half refunded if broken. Iron Will's Life Steal and Spell Vamp increased to 5/10/15/20/25% from 5/9/13/17/21% Iron Will no longer grants bonus armor down from 10/15/20/25/30 armor.
Do you guys think this will impact Lee Sin?
Cripple nerfed at earlier levels as well but still gets to a max of 60%. Although these are just PBE patch notes so who knows if they'll go live. Still he'll be a very strong jungler, his ganks are amazing, his dueling will still be strong and his mobility is one of the best.
When do you guys like to get your first real damage item on lee when you're jungling and you don't snowball? Often times I just get stuck rushing all the giant belt items (frozen hammer>randuins>sunfire>warmogs) because I just seem to die trying to peel or chase their adc away.
So I noticed that inSec was maxing Q the past two times I've seen him run Lee - I know most people are maxing E now because of the increased slow etc..is there any reason he's maxing Q instead?
Well, Q was the original skill to max - it decreases the cooldown, and also gives the most damage per skill point. I'm wondering if they only pick lee if they feel they don't need the jungler to carry a lot of non-ulti CC? Maybe InSec is more confident in his ability land Q?
I have always been maxing Q. Lee Sin is all about the base huge early game damage he gets, it also lets you counter jungle more safely.
I don't max E first unless I really need the attack speed reduction because there is a super fed jax/vayne whatever. I never cared for movement speed slow part of cripple (or mallet). Lee Sin is one of the most mobile champ of the game, why would you need a slow that badly?
Lee Sin is still one of the most versatile champ so I sometimes max E, or even W depending on what's happening.
Yeah I never max W anymore after nerfs. I see a lot of people recommend maxing E now, but I feel like Q is so much stronger against squishies. Dunno, gonna keep playing around with the two. So far I've been maxing Q if snowballing and E if not.
On March 21 2013 02:16 Mondeezy wrote: Yeah I never max W anymore after nerfs. I see a lot of people recommend maxing E now, but I feel like Q is so much stronger against squishies. Dunno, gonna keep playing around with the two. So far I've been maxing Q if snowballing and E if not.
I max W in toplane or midlane when I want sustain. Pretty fun with hydra.
what do you guys think of getting tiamat on lee sin? midgame he is still a beast with his burst and in lategame he can just splitpush and join the teamfight in a matter of seconds. its also nice to start the lane with 2 rejuv beads
On April 16 2013 01:45 Lightswarm wrote: what do you guys think of getting tiamat on lee sin? midgame he is still a beast with his burst and in lategame he can just splitpush and join the teamfight in a matter of seconds. its also nice to start the lane with 2 rejuv beads
I love it toplane, although it kinda requires you to be ahead. It's also one of the only way to stay relevant lategame.
I usually get hydra->randuins->LW/giant belt/aegis
Do people still play Lee top ranked after the W nerfs? Though Lee definitely got better item choices in S3, I think those nerfs were over the top. Jungle Lee falls off even faster he used to, and as fun as it is to play Lee top, I can't think of a single good reason to pick him over many other champions.
On April 17 2013 15:38 TheLastRaven wrote: Do people still play Lee top ranked after the W nerfs? Though Lee definitely got better item choices in S3, I think those nerfs were over the top. Jungle Lee falls off even faster he used to, and as fun as it is to play Lee top, I can't think of a single good reason to pick him over many other champions.
I almost never play Lee top but when I do I usually get hydra, that's what I meant. Topsin is situationnal, but yeah kinda sad how hard it is for him these days...
On April 16 2013 01:45 Lightswarm wrote: what do you guys think of getting tiamat on lee sin? midgame he is still a beast with his burst and in lategame he can just splitpush and join the teamfight in a matter of seconds. its also nice to start the lane with 2 rejuv beads
At what point would you get the tiamat? I don't dislike Hydra as an item on LeeSin because I think the active could work well, but he pretty much demands that you buy the most duel-efficient stats at all points throughout the game.
I am doing really well in a lot of my games at the moment, but I don't know what to build when I'm snowbaling early and want to get a good advantage for my team (especailly when they're not doing well).
Should you just continue with the standard build, or rush a hexdrinker/MoM or build into BT or something? Sometimes I find I get into a big lead but end up losing the game because I couldn't press that advantage hard enough
If you're massively snowballing, like 4/0 and you already finished aegis, a last whisper will ensure you stay useful for the entire game. BT works too, but its a little more expensive to build to, especially the 1550 for a BT sword. I also like building a phage into a frozen hammer for the ultimate peel for your ADC when I get moderately fed.
On April 17 2013 15:38 TheLastRaven wrote: Do people still play Lee top ranked after the W nerfs? Though Lee definitely got better item choices in S3, I think those nerfs were over the top. Jungle Lee falls off even faster he used to, and as fun as it is to play Lee top, I can't think of a single good reason to pick him over many other champions.
I've been playing him top in ranked lately with some success (I think I'm like 5 wins out of 6 games with it, much better than my jungle winrate with him). I either max Q or E, and max whichever I didn't second (rarely max shield unless I'm losing hard to poke). I get a Brut into Tiamat into Hydra, then LW if way ahead or Randuins if equal, followed by whichever of the two I didn't get, and Sightstone.
I usually snowball my lane, but if I can't then I just play peeler or initiator depending on the comp. It tends to work pretty well, plus I've been working on my Insec initiations
Hey TL. I've recently been trying Dorans blade jungle on diffrent champions with relatively high results, especially Udyr/Elise/Xin Zhao. But I am struggling to start effectively on Lee Sin, I end up with 1/5 of HP after second buff, which is kinda poorly.
If you are starting dorans on lee what are Runes/Masteries and skill orded you use?
i was just about to come in here to post that starting dblade, smiting red, and going straight bot lane is pretty much guaranteed firstblood on blue side, everyone's timings are so fucked up in this age of smiteless leashes that they don't expect you in the bush at all
On July 22 2013 19:08 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: i was just about to come in here to post that starting dblade, smiting red, and going straight bot lane is pretty much guaranteed firstblood on blue side, everyone's timings are so fucked up in this age of smiteless leashes that they don't expect you in the bush at all
i dont like lvl 2 ganks with lee sin as I feel you need W to close in Q to counter flash and E to slow them while you hit em. I allways ward brush at lvl 1 as a support and I often ward river lvl 1 before leashing with a 1min ward.
showing up lvl 2 as leesin botlane is also pretty much giving up your blue.
On July 22 2013 16:16 Rimak wrote: Hey TL. I've recently been trying Dorans blade jungle on diffrent champions with relatively high results, especially Udyr/Elise/Xin Zhao. But I am struggling to start effectively on Lee Sin, I end up with 1/5 of HP after second buff, which is kinda poorly.
If you are starting dorans on lee what are Runes/Masteries and skill orded you use?
Thanks in advance.
AD quints, AD marks, flat armor yellows, flat mres blues. 21/9/0 masteries. You also have to start W, not Q or E. I also just smite the buff while my 2nd W is up for spell vamp. Get Q on level up, then go gank. I like doing this on purple side because top lane is rarely warded that early and the red buff can replace the E slow.
Also good for counter jungle routes. I'd advise a lot of caution when doing this though.
On July 22 2013 16:16 Rimak wrote: Hey TL. I've recently been trying Dorans blade jungle on diffrent champions with relatively high results, especially Udyr/Elise/Xin Zhao. But I am struggling to start effectively on Lee Sin, I end up with 1/5 of HP after second buff, which is kinda poorly.
If you are starting dorans on lee what are Runes/Masteries and skill orded you use?
Thanks in advance.
AD quints, AD marks, flat armor yellows, flat mres blues. 21/9/0 masteries. You also have to start W, not Q or E. I also just smite the buff while my 2nd W is up for spell vamp. Get Q on level up, then go gank. I like doing this on purple side because top lane is rarely warded that early and the red buff can replace the E slow.
Also good for counter jungle routes. I'd advise a lot of caution when doing this though.
Thank you for the tip. Was messing around for couple of hours and seems that found acceptable stats for me.
4AS marks, 5 AD marks, flat armor yellows and flat MR blues (obv) 2 AD quints and 1 LS quint. For masteries i go 18/0/12 to gain 3% LS.
Starting W gives you 10% ls and you can ez clear both buffs without losing too much hp.
But then again, I'm still doubting AS marks and also possibility to start with E with initial 5% ls.
First: What do you guys consider favorable matchups against Lee Sin in the jungle? I think I have a losing winrate vs Nasus. B/C he's so tanky / good at killing dragon I feel like even with agressive counter jungling I have trouble keeping him down if it goes to the late game.
Second: What do you consider favorable matchups for Lee Sin up top? He seems more like a niche pick top but I love playing Lee Sin. Just don't know when I should bring him out top lane. I got the sense he was good against champions gated by mana because he can out sustain / out push them until they are OOM.
At low plat I just pick amumu if they pick lee; they won't counterjungle me hard enough generally that I fall off harder than he does, and my teamfighting destroys his. I think nocturne is also a solid pick as he can coutnergank and still outscales Lee pretty hard imo.
On September 06 2013 02:31 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: At low plat I just pick amumu if they pick lee; they won't counterjungle me hard enough generally that I fall off harder than he does, and my teamfighting destroys his. I think nocturne is also a solid pick as he can coutnergank and still outscales Lee pretty hard imo.
this is pretty much what i do, pick amumu or nasus and outscale
new lee build:
running full ad (+ 1 crit) reds and quints, armor yellows mr blue start longsword + 2 pots, counterjungle at their red after mine,
On September 06 2013 02:31 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: At low plat I just pick amumu if they pick lee; they won't counterjungle me hard enough generally that I fall off harder than he does, and my teamfighting destroys his. I think nocturne is also a solid pick as he can coutnergank and still outscales Lee pretty hard imo.
this is pretty much what i do, pick amumu or nasus and outscale
new lee build:
running full ad (+ 1 crit) reds and quints, armor yellows mr blue start dblade + 2 pots, counterjungle at their red after mine,
If you're sitting at red bush and they start red do you wait for them to finish and smite steal or do you just go right in while they're fighting it? I've been smite stealing but sometimes I miss and feel dumb...
I'm not that great of a jungler but I think if you can fight and kill/burn flash it will be better than just chilling for smite steal. Then again if you fight and they collapse then you might be in trouble instead of just stealing and running away.
Well, if you fight them while they're doing red you have a much much higher chance of killing them or at least burning their flash. Buff monsters do a LOT of damage early on and if you want 'til after they start doing the monster you'll pretty much always win the ensuing fight 1 on 1.
On September 06 2013 02:31 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: At low plat I just pick amumu if they pick lee; they won't counterjungle me hard enough generally that I fall off harder than he does, and my teamfighting destroys his. I think nocturne is also a solid pick as he can coutnergank and still outscales Lee pretty hard imo.
this is pretty much what i do, pick amumu or nasus and outscale
new lee build:
running full ad (+ 1 crit) reds and quints, armor yellows mr blue start dblade + 2 pots, counterjungle at their red after mine,
support lee sin is rly powerful i find. max q/w and get sightstone asap and u have a roaming roaming dude who can still do a fuckton of dmg to you. u also have so much harass potential with sonic wave/safeguard combo. "almost" item independent and solves alot of problems lee sin has lategame if u invest him in jungle/solo lane
i've been playing a bunch of lee top to practice mechanics for when i wanna take him to the jungle (less room for error, better role for him imo).
what should my mindset be towards the majority of the common, tanky top laners? can i outtrade them? should i farm? usually my opponents aren't trading optimally so i think i can outtrade/kill at lvl3, 5, 6 and later on when i do less damage i should just farm. is that right? Is there a decent matchup guide on him somewhere?
If you max W first, you will usually out trade anyone that has a shittier shield than you do (i.e, riven). Try to fuck up their farm with your W, and if they try to engage you, just pull them back to your creep wave and then trade. Lee tends to either bully really hard or get bullied...definitely depends on the matchup. You can out trade non-bursty top champs, but definitely be careful around like riven, rumble, rek, and any other dominant top laners. Lee is good at farming if you rush hydra. Just learn to abuse his mobility and you'll prolly be unkillable in the top lane.
I think lee top is pretty snowbally most of the time though, and I really prefer to put him in the jungle anyways; besides, if you plan on playing him in the jungle, you don't need to learn how to lane with him anyways..eventually you learn to land the Q and make your ward jumps as fluid as your flashes.
On September 24 2013 19:37 imBLIND wrote: If you max W first, you will usually out trade anyone that has a shittier shield than you do (i.e, riven). Try to fuck up their farm with your W, and if they try to engage you, just pull them back to your creep wave and then trade. Lee tends to either bully really hard or get bullied...definitely depends on the matchup. You can out trade non-bursty top champs, but definitely be careful around like riven, rumble, rek, and any other dominant top laners. Lee is good at farming if you rush hydra. Just learn to abuse his mobility and you'll prolly be unkillable in the top lane.
I think lee top is pretty snowbally most of the time though, and I really prefer to put him in the jungle anyways; besides, if you plan on playing him in the jungle, you don't need to learn how to lane with him anyways..eventually you learn to land the Q and make your ward jumps as fluid as your flashes.
I agree with this. The best way to get good at Lee sin jungle is to just play lee sin jungle. Mid seems like a more mechanically demanding position as well than top as you gotta roam etc a lot more.
I've noticed that despite having a 3.5kda with LS jungle I only have a 30% winrate so obviously I'm doing something wrong.. I usually get some kills early game and I always buy tanky items (after doran blade), maybe that's the reason ? If I manage to get kills early should I aim for a more damage orientated build in order to be able to carry harder ?
On October 14 2013 23:59 Lylat wrote: I've noticed that despite having a 3.5kda with LS jungle I only have a 30% winrate so obviously I'm doing something wrong.. I usually get some kills early game and I always buy tanky items (after doran blade), maybe that's the reason ? If I manage to get kills early should I aim for a more damage orientated build in order to be able to carry harder ?
If I'm slightly fed I usually go bruta or phage, and if I'm hella fed I rush LW. With Lee's base damages and execute you basically never fall off with LW.
Runes: 16 ad/13armor/9.4 mr (ad red, armor yellow, 2 ad blue/7 mr blue, 3 ad quint) Masteries: 19/11/0 Starting Items: ancient coin + ward trinket + ward + pot Core Items: sightstone + boots of mobility
1 point in each of his skills by level 3 is pretty much required to be useful in lane Max Q>R>E>W: Sonic wave comes down from 11s to 7s cd so you can set up your combos more frequently. Both safeguard and tempest do not offer lower cooldowns at higher level so it is to preference which to max next. I value maxing cripple for the slow over the safeguard shield because 1) more cc for kills and 2) safeguard maxes out at 200 hp shield and you will not be getting enough ap for the scaling to matter.
Early game: Harass as much as you can with your sonic wave as a successfully landed combo does 100 (+ % missing hp) base dmg at level 1. Land a few autos in between to maximize your damage output. If your team decides to invade enemy jungle at lvl 2-3, your mobility allows you to leave lane and aid your teammates much faster than they enemy.
Level 6: When you are about get your dragon’s rage, you should inform your jungler/mid to set up a gank for your lane. Ideally, you have a ward in hand to reposition yourself behind an enemy target via ward hopping. Either way, you should get yourself into a position where you can kick someone out of position to cause them to burn some summoners (or ideally a kill)
Mid game: *IMPORTANT* after landing a sonic wave, you must be able to ward hop behind the enemy champion to set up for your dragon’s rage. Failing to do so on a consistent basis greatly draws away from your utility/initiation. *IMPORTANT* At this point, you should have enough money for a basic sightstone. Your job now is to help roam the bot jungle (or top if your team chose to lane swap); only be in lane if there is nothing to be achieved in the jungle/mid. Boots of mobility helps tremendously in addition to you warding/ward hopping in the enemy jungle + river. Level 13 (max level in tempest/cripple) is when you essentially peak out so you must try your best to put pressure on the enemy team.
Late game: Because you are always ward hopping, your wards on the map will not last for their full duration. Thus, your team must contribute to warding key locations on the map. Again, you must learn to reposition yourself via ward hop to ult a target towards your team. Build tanky so you can cycle through your cooldowns for multiple rounds of combo-ing
Why not play Lee Sin in the jungle? Lee Sin is one of the most item-independent jungler (if not the most) in the game right now. He does not scale well past the midgame regardless of what role he plays (unless ridiculously fed). Most of what he will contribute to the team is a small aoe slow for catching targets/peeling for your carries, and his dragon’s rage initiation. Therefore, putting him in the support role leaves roam for champions that will benefit more from the extra gold in the jungle. Also, he is manaless, meaning you can spam your abilities to your heart’s content (more or less)
Someone tried lee sin as a roaming support in OGN, but it didn't work out as planned. You can support with basically anyone you're good at and stomp in normals, but this isn't going to work well past gold.
And how exactly is he item dependent? His kit is so useful that you can just build pure tank and still be annoying enough for someone to try and kill him. You are correct about him having poor late game scaling, but I wouldnt consider junglers having an extra 1000 gold as enough of a reason to have lee sin replace, say, a thresh, a leona, or an alistar.
edit: i either misread your post about item dependency or i need to get new glasses (or you ninja edited without the edit thing popping up)
you have to link that support lee sin game to me as i cannot judge without seeing it first. not saying lee sin support is the most safe (or easy) pick to make, but him ult kicking a squishy (ie adc/mid) into your team is incredibly powerful in later teamfights. he is item independent in that he is still useful without all those tanky/dmg items. i would consider junglers like shyvana/mundo/udyr to be item dependent since they need items in mid/late game to make an impact.
lee sin is definitely not a universally good pick for support, but there are many situations where i find him being very useful in that role. having someone like elise in the jungle allows your team to exert a lot of map presence for the mid/side lanes, tower diving with comparatively less cost. you can still build pure tank on him even with just the gold passive/global gold from objectives
On January 02 2014 22:50 Lightswarm wrote: you have to link that support lee sin game to me as i cannot judge without seeing it first. not saying lee sin support is the most safe (or easy) pick to make, but him ult kicking a squishy (ie adc/mid) into your team is incredibly powerful in later teamfights. he is item independent in that he is still useful without all those tanky/dmg items. i would consider junglers like shyvana/mundo/udyr to be item dependent since they need items in mid/late game to make an impact.
lee sin is definitely not a universally good pick for support, but there are many situations where i find him being very useful in that role. having someone like elise in the jungle allows your team to exert a lot of map presence for the mid/side lanes, tower diving with comparatively less cost. you can still build pure tank on him even with just the gold passive/global gold from objectives
Maybe into mid game with no items I could agree, but later on youre prolly gonna die before you manage to kick someone tbh.
On January 02 2014 22:50 Lightswarm wrote: you have to link that support lee sin game to me as i cannot judge without seeing it first. not saying lee sin support is the most safe (or easy) pick to make, but him ult kicking a squishy (ie adc/mid) into your team is incredibly powerful in later teamfights. he is item independent in that he is still useful without all those tanky/dmg items. i would consider junglers like shyvana/mundo/udyr to be item dependent since they need items in mid/late game to make an impact.
lee sin is definitely not a universally good pick for support, but there are many situations where i find him being very useful in that role. having someone like elise in the jungle allows your team to exert a lot of map presence for the mid/side lanes, tower diving with comparatively less cost. you can still build pure tank on him even with just the gold passive/global gold from objectives
Maybe into mid game with no items I could agree, but later on youre prolly gonna die before you manage to kick someone tbh.
without dying 10x in the early/mid game you can USUALLY get some items up from the objectives/assists/gold generation even on supports
in that skt vs samsung game, the lee sin went for an empty invade on red, rotated top jungle for literally 1 ward in the river before returning to bot lane. when thresh was lvl 6, lee sin was still at just level 4. finally getting his ult around the 10 min mark; sighstone at 12. i dont think i saw him try for a ward hop/dragon's rage once that game, although you could argue that the team in general was pretty behind
On January 03 2014 17:06 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: it is entirely possible to play lee sin without trying to ward hop kick people a million times per game
If you wanna look like a noob that is.
I've noticed almost everyone in soloq nowadays thinking anyone who plays Lee Sin should be able to ward -> w -> kick their entire team with no effort. its ridiculous.
i win games in gold wardhopping maybe three times all game, not because i can't do the wardkick combo, but because doing it for no reason burns energy and cooldowns that could be better used shielding/dashing to a teammate imo
Lee's kit is so good that you dont have to be able to ward hop like a pro. However, when you have played a really gifted Lee player that can avoid skillshots and/or kick peope back at will using ward hop, you either start training or switch champions..
the wardhop initiation is a workaround for lee not having a single target lockdown. It can be good in some situations, but when you regularly have to do it then you should have picked Naut/WW/Vi/Seju. Lee should be picked for his burst, early dueling/ganking and his mobility/disengage. In a comp with other mobile burst champions such as Ahri/Ez/Gragas/Renekton etc. he can really shine. If he is the sole initiator and needs to wardhop into R to be effective then someone at least is picking the wrong way.
On January 03 2014 17:06 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: it is entirely possible to play lee sin without trying to ward hop kick people a million times per game
If you wanna look like a noob that is.
I've noticed almost everyone in soloq nowadays thinking anyone who plays Lee Sin should be able to ward -> w -> kick their entire team with no effort. its ridiculous.
it actually is very hard. people don't stand around waiting for you to get closer than Q range so you can wardhop behind them. and when they do they are often tanks, which means a regular R back into their team would be better in 90% of the time.
Teamfight inititiation is extremely situational and can go terribly wrong or win the game right on the spot depending on judgement, postitioning, timing. Especially Lee Sins wardhop R combo which is basicly a riskier version of a hook/grab.
On January 06 2014 21:50 clickrush wrote: it actually is very hard. people don't stand around waiting for you to get closer than Q range so you can wardhop behind them. and when they do they are often tanks, which means a regular R back into their team would be better in 90% of the time.
Teamfight inititiation is extremely situational and can go terribly wrong or win the game right on the spot depending on judgement, postitioning, timing. Especially Lee Sins wardhop R combo which is basicly a riskier version of a hook/grab.
Right. You have to execute so many inputs (mind you landing your Q on the correct target) on a split second reaction and if your reaction is bad you just die. The execution is quite demanding but nothing practice can't overcome :D
the hardest part for me is usually figuring out where to put the ward based on where they're running/where their heavy cc champs are, the execution isn't THAT bad
I feel like some people try way to hard to kick somebody in their own team. I have seen countless lee sins jump in the moment they hit a Q on the ap or adc and just get blown up or disabled, unable to successfully kick somebody in. People should really slow down a bit and not try to look cool by kicking somebody in to the team. Its not like the enemy team cant see it coming lol Sometimes its better to keep the ult for peeling purposes or follow up cc. And damn i still need to be a bit faster at doing the wardhop kick.Maybe i should try out smart cast
Smart cast makes it way easier. The mechanics of the Insec move are pretty easy, its knowing when to use it which is hard part.
I find that other Lee Sin combo (which I assume doesnt have a name) way harder. The one that goes Q Enemy > ward jump to enemy >EE> R > Q back to them. I always mess that one up.
On January 10 2014 13:02 ZataN wrote: Smart cast makes it way easier. The mechanics of the Insec move are pretty easy, its knowing when to use it which is hard part.
I find that other Lee Sin combo (which I assume doesnt have a name) way harder. The one that goes Q Enemy > ward jump to enemy >EE> R > Q back to them. I always mess that one up.
you won't have energy for that. Why not WardJump->EE->AA->Q->R->Q? Much simpler and more damage.
On January 10 2014 13:02 ZataN wrote: Smart cast makes it way easier. The mechanics of the Insec move are pretty easy, its knowing when to use it which is hard part.
I find that other Lee Sin combo (which I assume doesnt have a name) way harder. The one that goes Q Enemy > ward jump to enemy >EE> R > Q back to them. I always mess that one up.
you won't have energy for that. Why not WardJump->EE->AA->Q->R->Q? Much simpler and more damage.
Similar combo (EE is at the end) zero chance to react since you're tagged with the Q AND gapclosed upon at the same instant (at ~42 seconds if the timed link doesn't work)
You can skip that flashy ward hopping stuff by just positioning well a lot of the time honestly.
Lee Sin is stupid good as support, you have free ranged poked and the tankiness of a melee character. Oh yeah, you also have a slow, a shield and a dash. He's really strong in other places, but if you are support I fully endorse picking him if you have the basic mechanics. You won't be tanky enough to do much fancy stuff in teamfights, but you can almost auto-win lane and be a pretty effective splitpusher later on.
I've been thinking if taking energy regen runes lets you pull off any slightly longer combos by getting the crucial 5/10 energy, any thoughts?
I find it very hard to believe that there are Lee Sin players who can't even do a simple wardjump -> kick combo.
Turn smartcast for both skills and items on, go into a bot game, try it a couple times. Boom. Not hard. If you're going to play Lee Sin, you need to at least know how to do his most basic combo.
On January 12 2014 15:41 TritaN wrote: I find it very hard to believe that there are Lee Sin players who can't even do a simple wardjump -> kick combo.
Turn smartcast for both skills and items on, go into a bot game, try it a couple times. Boom. Not hard. If you're going to play Lee Sin, you need to at least know how to do his most basic combo.
On January 12 2014 14:41 ticklishmusic wrote: You can skip that flashy ward hopping stuff by just positioning well a lot of the time honestly.
Lee Sin is stupid good as support, you have free ranged poked and the tankiness of a melee character. Oh yeah, you also have a slow, a shield and a dash. He's really strong in other places, but if you are support I fully endorse picking him if you have the basic mechanics. You won't be tanky enough to do much fancy stuff in teamfights, but you can almost auto-win lane and be a pretty effective splitpusher later on.
I've been thinking if taking energy regen runes lets you pull off any slightly longer combos by getting the crucial 5/10 energy, any thoughts?
u wont auto-win lane against certain supports like ali/lulu/taric. squishy enemy supports with little cc pre 6 is ez win tho. also, u def dont need the nrg runes, should be managing ur nrg in lane anyways. going ad red/quint and 21/9/0 maximizes his dmg done (pretty much all early game) and his nrg costs early on arent very significant if u arent spamming every time the abilities go off cd
Sorry, I didn't make it clear, I had two separate thoughts in my previous post-- first was using Lee as support (the guys you mentioned are some of his harder matchups but mana vs manaless means you will win if you don't completely screw things up) and second of taking energy runes to try and squeeze out slightly longer combos than are possible regularly.
On January 13 2014 01:20 ticklishmusic wrote: Sorry, I didn't make it clear, I had two separate thoughts in my previous post-- first was using Lee as support (the guys you mentioned are some of his harder matchups but mana vs manaless means you will win if you don't completely screw things up) and second of taking energy runes to try and squeeze out slightly longer combos than are possible regularly.
the most combo-ing u can do goes something like this: q+e+r+q (and you def have nuff nrg for that) anything else you do really goes into extended fights and not individual combo
aparantly lee support made a showing in ogn (in lane, not as a roamer) and the lane was extremely scary/strong.
the question of picking lee into the support role has nothing to do with him being better in any other position, the question should be "does he something uniquely better than other support picks and does he have a strong farmless game" and the answer is yes: he has a very strong disengage&peel and packs alot of burst with it. The amount of disenage/peel he provides is almost janna level and the burst is up there with the most damaging supports. He is not as good at poking and he has virtually no sustain as a babysitter though. So much about the theory. In practice we have seen that it's absolutely reasonable, even strong in pro level play. And you can bet they have practiced it before.
On January 13 2014 09:09 clickrush wrote: aparantly lee support made a showing in ogn (in lane, not as a roamer) and the lane was extremely scary/strong.
the question of picking lee into the support role has nothing to do with him being better in any other position, the question should be "does he something uniquely better than other support picks and does he have a strong farmless game" and the answer is yes: he has a very strong disengage&peel and packs alot of burst with it. The amount of disenage/peel he provides is almost janna level and the burst is up there with the most damaging supports. He is not as good at poking and he has virtually no sustain as a babysitter though. So much about the theory. In practice we have seen that it's absolutely reasonable, even strong in pro level play. And you can bet they have practiced it before.
link vod
also, lee sin has decent poke potential pre 6. landing ur q+q combo does more solo dmg vs any other support (cept maybe annie). the one main plus for lee sin is his mobility early on. getting a ss means that after pushing a wave to the tower, u can roam jungle/mid and waste little time getting back to ur ad
ive pretty much got to the point where i can pull off the wardhop+dragon rage combo successfully about 80% of the times. its actually scary how dangerous it is especially since the combo flys out of nowhere
My normal build was hydra->lw->defensive boots->randuins->cleaver+bt sometimes with a hexdrinker mixed in but now I'm building more cdr to deal with the long cooldown on w.
When should I roam rather than back after getting a kill mid and shoving?
Also roaming is more of a feel thing, you have to set up the right conditions beforehand to roam. You should be constantly going into your jungle and theirs to ward and do wraith camps, which can disguise your roam because it looks like it's just part of your farm pattern. The idea is that you're sacrificing time in your lane because you can afford to do it while influencing another lane, ideally to set up an objective, but sometimes just to get you or your teammates ahead. You don't just randomly roam, it's a risk analysis based on a lot of things like jungler positions, coverage, warding, timing, etc.
If it doesn't look like a horrible idea, go for it, but forcing plays when you don't know what you're doing is almost always bad.
On May 29 2014 11:44 catplanetcatplanet wrote: Thanks. I thought sightstone was only a standard buy on jungle lee and mid lee usually just buys green wards.
you arent buying a sightstone, youre buying a play maker
On May 29 2014 11:44 catplanetcatplanet wrote: Thanks. I thought sightstone was only a standard buy on jungle lee and mid lee usually just buys green wards.
You can play without sightstone if you need the 800 gold, but usually its good to get one.It will pay off in the long run
On May 30 2014 13:22 catplanetcatplanet wrote: When do I stop building damage (after winning lane)?
If I die more than once in lane I usually go full tank and try to peel for adc.
Look at what your 6 items are going to be. If their mid looks like they know how to play the game, you probably will need MR. If they have some semblence of physical damage, you'll need at least randuins and most likely thornmail as well. Boots, and that pretty much leaves you with only 2 damage items. If you want to do damage, one of those will have to be LW, and because hydra is so gd cost effective, that is usually the item you're rushing anyways... so most of the time, you really only get 1-2 items. You can just go full tank after hydra and then get lw leisurely.
Yeah it really depends on how far your team is, and team comps, generally speaking if you're snowballing you don't want to ever stop building damage because lee sin doesn't transition well into off-tank or full tank after committing to damage but he's almost impossible to deal with when fed