On September 06 2013 02:31 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: At low plat I just pick amumu if they pick lee; they won't counterjungle me hard enough generally that I fall off harder than he does, and my teamfighting destroys his. I think nocturne is also a solid pick as he can coutnergank and still outscales Lee pretty hard imo.
this is pretty much what i do, pick amumu or nasus and outscale
new lee build:
running full ad (+ 1 crit) reds and quints, armor yellows mr blue start longsword + 2 pots, counterjungle at their red after mine,
On September 06 2013 02:31 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: At low plat I just pick amumu if they pick lee; they won't counterjungle me hard enough generally that I fall off harder than he does, and my teamfighting destroys his. I think nocturne is also a solid pick as he can coutnergank and still outscales Lee pretty hard imo.
this is pretty much what i do, pick amumu or nasus and outscale
new lee build:
running full ad (+ 1 crit) reds and quints, armor yellows mr blue start dblade + 2 pots, counterjungle at their red after mine,
If you're sitting at red bush and they start red do you wait for them to finish and smite steal or do you just go right in while they're fighting it? I've been smite stealing but sometimes I miss and feel dumb...
I'm not that great of a jungler but I think if you can fight and kill/burn flash it will be better than just chilling for smite steal. Then again if you fight and they collapse then you might be in trouble instead of just stealing and running away.
Well, if you fight them while they're doing red you have a much much higher chance of killing them or at least burning their flash. Buff monsters do a LOT of damage early on and if you want 'til after they start doing the monster you'll pretty much always win the ensuing fight 1 on 1.
On September 06 2013 02:31 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: At low plat I just pick amumu if they pick lee; they won't counterjungle me hard enough generally that I fall off harder than he does, and my teamfighting destroys his. I think nocturne is also a solid pick as he can coutnergank and still outscales Lee pretty hard imo.
this is pretty much what i do, pick amumu or nasus and outscale
new lee build:
running full ad (+ 1 crit) reds and quints, armor yellows mr blue start dblade + 2 pots, counterjungle at their red after mine,
support lee sin is rly powerful i find. max q/w and get sightstone asap and u have a roaming roaming dude who can still do a fuckton of dmg to you. u also have so much harass potential with sonic wave/safeguard combo. "almost" item independent and solves alot of problems lee sin has lategame if u invest him in jungle/solo lane
i've been playing a bunch of lee top to practice mechanics for when i wanna take him to the jungle (less room for error, better role for him imo).
what should my mindset be towards the majority of the common, tanky top laners? can i outtrade them? should i farm? usually my opponents aren't trading optimally so i think i can outtrade/kill at lvl3, 5, 6 and later on when i do less damage i should just farm. is that right? Is there a decent matchup guide on him somewhere?
If you max W first, you will usually out trade anyone that has a shittier shield than you do (i.e, riven). Try to fuck up their farm with your W, and if they try to engage you, just pull them back to your creep wave and then trade. Lee tends to either bully really hard or get bullied...definitely depends on the matchup. You can out trade non-bursty top champs, but definitely be careful around like riven, rumble, rek, and any other dominant top laners. Lee is good at farming if you rush hydra. Just learn to abuse his mobility and you'll prolly be unkillable in the top lane.
I think lee top is pretty snowbally most of the time though, and I really prefer to put him in the jungle anyways; besides, if you plan on playing him in the jungle, you don't need to learn how to lane with him anyways..eventually you learn to land the Q and make your ward jumps as fluid as your flashes.
On September 24 2013 19:37 imBLIND wrote: If you max W first, you will usually out trade anyone that has a shittier shield than you do (i.e, riven). Try to fuck up their farm with your W, and if they try to engage you, just pull them back to your creep wave and then trade. Lee tends to either bully really hard or get bullied...definitely depends on the matchup. You can out trade non-bursty top champs, but definitely be careful around like riven, rumble, rek, and any other dominant top laners. Lee is good at farming if you rush hydra. Just learn to abuse his mobility and you'll prolly be unkillable in the top lane.
I think lee top is pretty snowbally most of the time though, and I really prefer to put him in the jungle anyways; besides, if you plan on playing him in the jungle, you don't need to learn how to lane with him anyways..eventually you learn to land the Q and make your ward jumps as fluid as your flashes.
I agree with this. The best way to get good at Lee sin jungle is to just play lee sin jungle. Mid seems like a more mechanically demanding position as well than top as you gotta roam etc a lot more.
I've noticed that despite having a 3.5kda with LS jungle I only have a 30% winrate so obviously I'm doing something wrong.. I usually get some kills early game and I always buy tanky items (after doran blade), maybe that's the reason ? If I manage to get kills early should I aim for a more damage orientated build in order to be able to carry harder ?
On October 14 2013 23:59 Lylat wrote: I've noticed that despite having a 3.5kda with LS jungle I only have a 30% winrate so obviously I'm doing something wrong.. I usually get some kills early game and I always buy tanky items (after doran blade), maybe that's the reason ? If I manage to get kills early should I aim for a more damage orientated build in order to be able to carry harder ?
If I'm slightly fed I usually go bruta or phage, and if I'm hella fed I rush LW. With Lee's base damages and execute you basically never fall off with LW.
Runes: 16 ad/13armor/9.4 mr (ad red, armor yellow, 2 ad blue/7 mr blue, 3 ad quint) Masteries: 19/11/0 Starting Items: ancient coin + ward trinket + ward + pot Core Items: sightstone + boots of mobility
1 point in each of his skills by level 3 is pretty much required to be useful in lane Max Q>R>E>W: Sonic wave comes down from 11s to 7s cd so you can set up your combos more frequently. Both safeguard and tempest do not offer lower cooldowns at higher level so it is to preference which to max next. I value maxing cripple for the slow over the safeguard shield because 1) more cc for kills and 2) safeguard maxes out at 200 hp shield and you will not be getting enough ap for the scaling to matter.
Early game: Harass as much as you can with your sonic wave as a successfully landed combo does 100 (+ % missing hp) base dmg at level 1. Land a few autos in between to maximize your damage output. If your team decides to invade enemy jungle at lvl 2-3, your mobility allows you to leave lane and aid your teammates much faster than they enemy.
Level 6: When you are about get your dragon’s rage, you should inform your jungler/mid to set up a gank for your lane. Ideally, you have a ward in hand to reposition yourself behind an enemy target via ward hopping. Either way, you should get yourself into a position where you can kick someone out of position to cause them to burn some summoners (or ideally a kill)
Mid game: *IMPORTANT* after landing a sonic wave, you must be able to ward hop behind the enemy champion to set up for your dragon’s rage. Failing to do so on a consistent basis greatly draws away from your utility/initiation. *IMPORTANT* At this point, you should have enough money for a basic sightstone. Your job now is to help roam the bot jungle (or top if your team chose to lane swap); only be in lane if there is nothing to be achieved in the jungle/mid. Boots of mobility helps tremendously in addition to you warding/ward hopping in the enemy jungle + river. Level 13 (max level in tempest/cripple) is when you essentially peak out so you must try your best to put pressure on the enemy team.
Late game: Because you are always ward hopping, your wards on the map will not last for their full duration. Thus, your team must contribute to warding key locations on the map. Again, you must learn to reposition yourself via ward hop to ult a target towards your team. Build tanky so you can cycle through your cooldowns for multiple rounds of combo-ing
Why not play Lee Sin in the jungle? Lee Sin is one of the most item-independent jungler (if not the most) in the game right now. He does not scale well past the midgame regardless of what role he plays (unless ridiculously fed). Most of what he will contribute to the team is a small aoe slow for catching targets/peeling for your carries, and his dragon’s rage initiation. Therefore, putting him in the support role leaves roam for champions that will benefit more from the extra gold in the jungle. Also, he is manaless, meaning you can spam your abilities to your heart’s content (more or less)
Someone tried lee sin as a roaming support in OGN, but it didn't work out as planned. You can support with basically anyone you're good at and stomp in normals, but this isn't going to work well past gold.
And how exactly is he item dependent? His kit is so useful that you can just build pure tank and still be annoying enough for someone to try and kill him. You are correct about him having poor late game scaling, but I wouldnt consider junglers having an extra 1000 gold as enough of a reason to have lee sin replace, say, a thresh, a leona, or an alistar.
edit: i either misread your post about item dependency or i need to get new glasses (or you ninja edited without the edit thing popping up)
you have to link that support lee sin game to me as i cannot judge without seeing it first. not saying lee sin support is the most safe (or easy) pick to make, but him ult kicking a squishy (ie adc/mid) into your team is incredibly powerful in later teamfights. he is item independent in that he is still useful without all those tanky/dmg items. i would consider junglers like shyvana/mundo/udyr to be item dependent since they need items in mid/late game to make an impact.
lee sin is definitely not a universally good pick for support, but there are many situations where i find him being very useful in that role. having someone like elise in the jungle allows your team to exert a lot of map presence for the mid/side lanes, tower diving with comparatively less cost. you can still build pure tank on him even with just the gold passive/global gold from objectives
On January 02 2014 22:50 Lightswarm wrote: you have to link that support lee sin game to me as i cannot judge without seeing it first. not saying lee sin support is the most safe (or easy) pick to make, but him ult kicking a squishy (ie adc/mid) into your team is incredibly powerful in later teamfights. he is item independent in that he is still useful without all those tanky/dmg items. i would consider junglers like shyvana/mundo/udyr to be item dependent since they need items in mid/late game to make an impact.
lee sin is definitely not a universally good pick for support, but there are many situations where i find him being very useful in that role. having someone like elise in the jungle allows your team to exert a lot of map presence for the mid/side lanes, tower diving with comparatively less cost. you can still build pure tank on him even with just the gold passive/global gold from objectives
Maybe into mid game with no items I could agree, but later on youre prolly gonna die before you manage to kick someone tbh.
On January 02 2014 22:50 Lightswarm wrote: you have to link that support lee sin game to me as i cannot judge without seeing it first. not saying lee sin support is the most safe (or easy) pick to make, but him ult kicking a squishy (ie adc/mid) into your team is incredibly powerful in later teamfights. he is item independent in that he is still useful without all those tanky/dmg items. i would consider junglers like shyvana/mundo/udyr to be item dependent since they need items in mid/late game to make an impact.
lee sin is definitely not a universally good pick for support, but there are many situations where i find him being very useful in that role. having someone like elise in the jungle allows your team to exert a lot of map presence for the mid/side lanes, tower diving with comparatively less cost. you can still build pure tank on him even with just the gold passive/global gold from objectives
Maybe into mid game with no items I could agree, but later on youre prolly gonna die before you manage to kick someone tbh.
without dying 10x in the early/mid game you can USUALLY get some items up from the objectives/assists/gold generation even on supports
in that skt vs samsung game, the lee sin went for an empty invade on red, rotated top jungle for literally 1 ward in the river before returning to bot lane. when thresh was lvl 6, lee sin was still at just level 4. finally getting his ult around the 10 min mark; sighstone at 12. i dont think i saw him try for a ward hop/dragon's rage once that game, although you could argue that the team in general was pretty behind
EPT
