EPT[Champion] Xin Zhao - Page 7
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
1. He needs a proper AD scaling skill. Q alone is not enough. E should be (rightfully) changed to scale with AD. 2. HE NEEDS AN ESCAPE SKILL. Some kind of dash, or movement skill modifier or something. His Ult could use a little re-work to do something different entirely, but these 2 issues need to be addressed.... | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On April 12 2012 15:19 Seuss wrote: A Xin who focuses on pure damage items and sits his ult is a Xin who, against competent opponents, is going to explode before he does anything useful. This exactly. Xin needs to be built semi tanky. A good build would be.. Mercury Treads - Ghostblade - Trinity - Wit's End - Warmogs - Atmas This build nets you 100+ armor / 100 + magic resist, 3k+ life, optimal AS, active escape skill, around 120 AD, decent crit, and good MS Especially because he lacks an escape skill, I tend to take both ghost + flash on him. | ||
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ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On April 12 2012 21:38 ihasaKAROT wrote: Xin doenst need an escape, it would completely break him. The whole point of champions like Xin and Fiora for example is that you need to pick your spots and pick off the squishys. If you are able to dive in, kill and dive out, the champion becomes broken. Are you kidding? Xin is suffering from lack of escape. It would not break him. Almost all champs have some sort of way to escape except Xin. Especially champs that can dive in and kill. The way Xin charges at an enemy makes him very common target. Akali -> Shroud Irelia -> Stun/Slow Fizz -> Playful/Trickster Wukong -> Decoy And the list goes on and on. He's not Soraka who can stay on the sidelines. He's a melee champ that needs to charge into enemy team and use a global ult at the beginning of a teamfight. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Strykemard
168 Posts
On April 13 2012 02:04 Seuss wrote: If you're going to count Irelia's E as an escape, why doesn't Xin's Q count? The difference is E is a direct cast but his Q needs 3 autoattacks, by which time it'll most likely be too late. The most common scenario when you need to escape is you have multiple enemies chasing you with one of them who has cc close to you. At this instance, Irelia just has to E that one enemy and run. Xin will most likely not get time to pull off his knock up and survive. But yes, Xin is definitely one of those few champs without escape. Even Jax who is one of those champs who needs to fight to stay alive can jump to his team-mates. If Xin could dash to his own team-mates/creeps, it would make him perfect, not OP. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:52 Strykemard wrote: The difference is E is a direct cast but his Q needs 3 autoattacks, by which time it'll most likely be too late. The most common scenario when you need to escape is you have multiple enemies chasing you with one of them who has cc close to you. At this instance, Irelia just has to E that one enemy and run. Xin will most likely not get time to pull off his knock up and survive. But yes, Xin is definitely one of those few champs without escape. Even Jax who is one of those champs who needs to fight to stay alive can jump to his team-mates. If Xin could dash to his own team-mates/creeps, it would make him perfect, not OP. My point was the definition of "escapes" being used is too broad. Escapes generally refer to abilities which put distance between you and your opponent. Lumping CC abilities into the same category is confusing. That said, there are plenty of champions who do well without a distance creating ability. Xin could easily be one of them, as his problems have little to do with escaping and everything to do with his late-game scaling. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
This is Riot's position anyway and as far as I can tell they are right. Sure late game needs a buff but is it safe to do that given how faceroll he is? | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:44 Seuss wrote: My point was the definition of "escapes" being used is too broad. Escapes generally refer to abilities which put distance between you and your opponent. Lumping CC abilities into the same category is confusing. That said, there are plenty of champions who do well without a distance creating ability. Xin could easily be one of them, as his problems have little to do with escaping and everything to do with his late-game scaling. If a CC stuns an enemy champ chasing you, why wouldn't that count as an escape skill? "Ability to escape" does not just count for movement modifiers, dashes, or blinks. It could freeze an enemy champ chasing you, so that counts as an escape skill. If you ever played Xin even once, you would know that his charge (especially with the loud scream lol) gets the attention of nearby enemy teammates and he becomes the immediate focus, especially because his Q wreaks so much havoc on their team. Late game scaling could use some work but it's not as urgent as his escape, especially because his W gives him a good AS steroid and his Q becomes more powerful/frequent as his AS goes up. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
I wouldn't say giving Xin an escape ability would make him viable again, like Irelia's Q, Xin can use his E to dash to a minion and summoner Flash if he wants to escape. Mainly his ult needs to be buffed back up again, the numbers it gives now is so low compared to before and the scaling on his Q(higher AD ratio) or E is fine, like most other bruisers, not all skills have to be physical | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
There's no problem with having different champs with different roles different playstyles and different strengths and weaknesses. Riot absolutely should not give every champ a "balanced" kit that can do everything. Homogeneity makes for boring games. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On April 13 2012 12:03 Ryuu314 wrote: Xin needs buffs/changes. But what he doesn't need is an escape. The lack of escape is not even remotely the reason why he's underplayed/underpowered. It's mostly because he doesn't scale very well into late game and he's a very all-in champion similar to Amumu; ie. You go in, do your shit and hope to do a ton of damage/disruption before you die. There's no problem with having different champs with different roles different playstyles and different strengths and weaknesses. Riot absolutely should not give every champ a "balanced" kit that can do everything. Homogeneity makes for boring games. The reason he's all-in champion like you said, is because he goes in, hopes to do a lot of damage, and can't get out due to lack of escape skill. Amumu is a tank that is supposed to absorb hits. Therefore he doesn't need an escape skill. Xin is not a tank. You can build him tanky dps, but he is still not a tank. It is a big reason why he's slightly UP right now, but yes I agree he needs better scaling. I agree that not all champs should do everything. But for Xin's role as someone who goes into heart of enemy team and uses global ult at beginning of team fight, he should have some way to preserve himself and not get focused down and killed within a few seconds. TLDR? He's designed to get focused down so either make him tanky enough to survive the hits or give him a way to escape | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
On April 13 2012 12:21 GhostOwl wrote: TLDR? He's designed to get focused down so either make him tanky enough to survive the hits or give him a way to escape This is what I was referring to earlier. Xin's Ult is an initiation move that require tank items to use effectively. Xin's Q and W are dps abilities that require damage/crit/attack speed to use effectively. Hence, he like half a champion until you are so fed that you can get all those things. A good build would be.. Mercury Treads - Ghostblade - Trinity - Wit's End - Warmogs - Atmas This build nets you 100+ armor / 100 + magic resist, 3k+ life, optimal AS, active escape skill, around 120 AD, decent crit, and good MS Especially because he lacks an escape skill, I tend to take both ghost + flash on him. Yeah, nice build. Here is the problem. If you rush ghostblade or trinity, you simply aren't tanky enough. Xin has absolutely no damage mitigation outside of a little armor/mr from his ult. if you rush warmogs/wits end you have terrible dps and are basically an initiaton ult with a knockup after three attacks. The game will almost always be over before you can complete a build that allows you to be tanky enough to utilize his ult and still do dps. I am not saying he is a terrible champ just that his ult has absolutely no synergy with the rest of his kit. | ||
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Strykemard
168 Posts
On April 13 2012 12:03 Ryuu314 wrote: Xin needs buffs/changes. But what he doesn't need is an escape. The lack of escape is not even remotely the reason why he's underplayed/underpowered. It's mostly because he doesn't scale very well into late game and he's a very all-in champion similar to Amumu; ie. You go in, do your shit and hope to do a ton of damage/disruption before you die. There's no problem with having different champs with different roles different playstyles and different strengths and weaknesses. Riot absolutely should not give every champ a "balanced" kit that can do everything. Homogeneity makes for boring games. The problem is Riot has already made it too homogenous. Practically every champ you see has some sort of escape AND gap closer that the ones without it are underplayed. While I feel that Xin is not so much underpowered that outplayed by other champions, if you buff his base stats anymore your run the risk of making him overpowered. I still think the perfect change to his kit would be to make his dash usable on team mates. That way you can decide whether you want the quick engage or the quick escape, as you'll never have both. That way he'll not become op as most other champs have both but he'll be on even ground. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On March 21 2012 15:13 Mogwai wrote: wtf are you talking about? Xin bashes Yorick's face in super hard for the first 5 levels. I dunno, I can show you if you want, but it's mad easy. I've gotten curious to how exactly xin will counter a 21 def cloth5 yorick. Can you elaborate, maybe on runes/masteries aswell? | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On May 01 2012 01:45 Sponkz wrote: I've gotten curious to how exactly xin will counter a 21 def cloth5 yorick. Can you elaborate, maybe on runes/masteries aswell? 9/21/0 Attack Speed Reds/Armor Yellows/MRes Blues/Mres Quints Open Cloth + 5 and get up in his face with Q at every possibility. Wear down his mana pool and keep him focused on hitting you and not dying rather than CSing. You beat him just by attacking him, so you get to dictate the fights and you should be making him work really hard to get CS, whereas you can just sit in the creep wave and CS with impunity. Quickly rush Wriggle's + Wit's and just stay up in his face for all of laning. When you hit 6, E -> R -> Q on him at every opportunity. After Wriggle's + Wit's, shoot for Mercs, Phage, Glacial Shroud and either Ghostblade or Zeke's depending on your team. Also, I'd like to point out that builds being suggested recently in this thread are missing CDR. Xin's strongest scaling comes from Attack Speed and Cooldown Reduction in combination with his W. Every final item build on Xin should feature a Frozen Heart and either a Zeke's or a Ghostblade with enough points in the defensive tree to get Enlightenment so that you reach the 40% CDR cap. These builds end up being extremely potent late game when you can chain Es and Qs all over fights via your W and strong attack speed. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Xin Zhao Stats Base armor decreased to 16 from 16.2 Armor per level decreased to 3.5 from 3.7 Base mana increased to 215 from 213 Mana per level increased to 35 from 31 AD per level decreased to 3 from 3.1 Challenge (New Passive) Xin Zhao challenges his target with his basic attacks and Audacious Charge, reducing its armor by 15% for 3 seconds. Three Talon Strike Cooldown changed to 9/8/7/6/5 from 10/10/10/10/10 Effect changed to Xin Zhao's next 3 basic attacks deal 15/30/45/60/75 (+) physical damage and reduce his other abilities' cooldowns by 1 second. The final strike also knocks the target into the air. Battle Cry Cooldown changed to 16/15/14/13/12 from 24/22/20/18/16 Cost changed to 40/40/40/40/40 Mana from 35/35/35/35/35 Mana Effect changed to Passive: Xin Zhao heals himself for 26/32/38/44/50 (+0.7) every third basic attack. Active: Xin Zhao unleashes a battle cry, increasing his attack speed by 40/50/60/70/80% for 5/5/5/5/5 seconds. Audacious Charge Cooldown changed to 13/12/11/10/9 from 16/15/14/13/12 Cost changed to 60/60/60/60/60 Mana from 70/70/70/70/70 Mana Effect changed to Xin Zhao charges and challenges an enemy. The charge deals 70/115/160/205/250 (+0.6) magic damage to all nearby enemies and slows them by 25/30/35/40/45% for 2 seconds. Crescent Sweep Effect changed to Xin Zhao unleashes a sweep around him that deals 125/225/325 (+) plus 15% of target's current health in physical damage and knocks enemies back. Xin Zhao gains 15/20/25 Armor and Magic Resistance for 6 seconds for each champion hit. Challenge: If a challenged target is hit by the sweep, it is unaffected by the knockback. What do you guys think? I feel bruta/GB/BC will be much better since it synergizes with the 15% armor reduction that applies first. Also may swap out AS reds for ArP reds. AS seems to scale less since the cdr no longer applies more than thrice off of Q from my knowledge. His ult seems pretty good too. Loss of the health regen passive feels bad though, so the jungle won't be as forgiving unless you take points in W. Edit: btw you guys say that xin needs an escape skill for some reason. He tells me a Demacian does not retreat. (ps mogwai a great but overlooked xin item is the stinger, it's basically a recurve bow that gives you 10% cdr for an extra 40 gold, also builds into nashors, and now that xin has .6 ap scaling...) | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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