EPTNowadays people rarely give Ezreal blue buff whereas previously it was quite common to see double-buffed Ezreal destroying EVERYTHING by himself in early-mid game teamfights. You really need to build that CDR and brutalizer and cdr boots are still the only two items that make any sense to build on him.
[Champion] Ezreal - Page 9
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Nowadays people rarely give Ezreal blue buff whereas previously it was quite common to see double-buffed Ezreal destroying EVERYTHING by himself in early-mid game teamfights. You really need to build that CDR and brutalizer and cdr boots are still the only two items that make any sense to build on him. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Personally, I'd rather go Sheen > Boots > BT > etc than having to stop for a Brutalizer in the middle, though. Once you get to the "drawn out teamfight" stage, what you go for early doesn't generally matter as your damage is indicated by what you chose between things like BT/Gunblade/TF/IE/LW/whatever. ezreal is insanely strong earlygame, debatable with cait, but in the heyday of solo mid ranged ad, he was the classic kill some1 at lvl 2 sort of champ I still try to play him mid in all my normals, he wrecks most champs there :D | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
The other thing is, if you're getting pushed back (which you might against Kog, Cait... maybe Vayne), Q becomes your last hitting tool unless you're under tower, and Sheen Q lets you hit harder than Bruta Q. Buta autos won't do you any good if you're zoned out where you can't use them at all. Brutalizer is a viable pick, it offers most of the stats Ez wants, but I build Sheen first and build it every game. Bruta isn't always a good choice, you'll want Sheen pretty much 100% of your games. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Q has one of the lowest chance of landing vs a smart player because unless the Ezreal has any threat level to himself, he has no control of his position and therefore can't get any Q's. Buying sheen which automatically means that your ability to do damage is now funnelled into 1 skill entirely, which makes ezreal even easier to counter. If you are last hitting at tower, how is a harder hitting Q suppose to make it better? If anything, you want that 25 extra AD from brut so that you can last hit creeps that have taken tower damage easier. EDIT: There's no such thing as "I get enough CDR with runes and CDR boots". Until you get 40%, it's not enough. The difference between 30% and 40% cdr on ezreal is 30% CDR: 1.8second Q 40% CDR: 1.4second Q which is approximately 25% more Q's if you are straight up spamming them. I only found good use out of sheen when I'm straight up owning my lane to the point where they already have to be so far from the creeps that I can zone them with my Q. This doesn't work unless they have reasons to keep their distance from you. The extra mana pool, Q poke, and burst actually comes in handy in this case. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
granted its not the best, but its not so atrocious that you 'cannot' hit ppl with them | ||
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HereAndNow
United States185 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Against Cait, you can't charge in because she'll just get 2-3 autos on you before you're in range. It also leaves you very open to trap Q. The only ability you can use to exchange pokes with her is Q. A Sheen Q will make her backpedal and think twice more than a Bruta Q. Against Kog, you can get in when his W is not up, but when it is, you're putting yourself at a big risk. When I see him turn red, the only thing on my mind is to get out of his range, at which point the only thing I can reach him (and the minons) with is Q. Against Vayne, once she gets a point in W, you don't want to trade autos with her. Maybe run in for one, then gtfo before that painful proc. Q lets you put on the pain even when you're not making exchanges like that. As far as minions go, this is the scenario I'm thinking of. Let's say you're zoned out. Your support failed somehow, or it's Cait with her range, or ganks have been scaring you. The minions aren't under the tower because your opponent isn't pushing the lane and being smart, so you can't get last hits from autos without moving into that scary threat zone range. What can you use to last hit in this situation? Q. Q lets you last hit when you shouldn't be able to, and remain safe while doing so. If your options are stay out and get no gold or fire Q in there and get gold, I'll go with the latter. Sheen makes your Q basically do more than half health to a minion, letting you stay completely safe while counter-pushing and farming. Against opponents where you can safely get in and auto (hopefully with your passive up too), Bruta is probably better. But in the end, you want Sheen anyway and you might not want Bruta, so go for Sheen first. Q is your swiss army knife. It does big damage, it lowers CDs, it procs on-hits. It is, for all intents and purposes, a massive auto at almost double your normal range. Sheen packs on so much more of a punch early on that it's not even funny. And it builds into nicer stuff later on. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
There's no such thing as "I get enough CDR with runes and CDR boots". Until you get 40%, it's not enough. The difference between 30% and 40% cdr on ezreal is 30% CDR: 1.8second Q 40% CDR: 1.4second Q which is approximately 25% more Q's if you are straight up spamming them. I only found good use out of sheen when I'm straight up owning my lane to the point where they already have to be so far from the creeps that I can zone them with my Q. This doesn't work unless they have reasons to keep their distance from you. The extra mana pool, Q poke, and burst actually comes in handy in this case. That's kind of a logic dump. Saying "30% CDR is worthless because you can have more" is like saying "why only have 1 Bloodthirster when you can have 5 and get 5 times as much AD". More is better, but not having max isn't world ending. You're balancing out stats. Bruta is nice early/mid game, but not super great later on, and Ghostblade isn't super great for late game Ezreal either. I'd rather not spend money on an item that will only benefit me to a point (DBlade nonwithstanding). The CDR remains nice later in the game, but in the end the AD and ArPen doesn't amount to much and you're saving a spot just for the extra 10% CDR, which isn't worth it. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
This is on top of having Q refresh faster automatically makes every point of AD you buy more efficient. If your build has 30% cdr and you aren`t buying a brutalizer, "what are you thinking?" You are playing every single one of these matchups wrong and I recommend you change the way you view things bceause Ezreal is NOT suppose to be the weaker one in lane or else you should be playing a different champion. Every single one of these matchups sounds like you are losing, pretty much giving up freefarm and praying that they walk up to you for you to Q them in the face when they can simply be farming up a storm and roll you over because they're all late-game heroes and you are not. Let me give you a simple example of why you are wrong: vs caitlyn, she's simply going to outpush you really really hard if you buy sheen. A caitlyn with BF sword vs ezreal with sheen... you are not going to be able to Q anything at all because there's always going to be a creepwave walking over you 24/7. With brutalizer you can last hit everything at your tower without expending mana and keep it somewhat in check due to actually having some AD and thus your DPS to the creepwave is much greater. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
though I also suggest brutalizer instead of sheen | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Let's do a little math. Over 10 seconds (pretty normal poke exchange time, maybe even a bit long): Level 5 Ezreal (in lane, probably have gold for items at this point). Q has a 5 second CD. For argument's sake, say you have 9 flat CDR blues and CDR boots (bringing you to 20.85 CDR) and Sheen/Bruta. Not a perfect scenario, but an even one. Q is now at a 3.96 second CD for Sheen, 3.45 for Bruta. Assuming you hit each one, subtract a second from each, putting you at 2.96 for Sheen and 2.45 for Bruta. With Brutalizer, your Autos do 84.2, with Sheen, 59.2. Attack Speed is .73984, so in 10 seconds you attack 7.39 or 7 times. With Brutalizer, Q hits for 159.2. With Sheen, Q hits for 141.2, procs for 198.4. Since the CD for Q is longer than the ICD on Sheen, it procs every hit. With CDs as they are stated above, Bruta gets an extra Q over Sheen, so 4 Qs for Sheen and 5 for Brutalizer. We'll not count E for right now, as it's unreliable to hit and will probably be saved for escape. Assuming you hit every auto and Q: Brutalizer damage is: 1385.4 Sheen damage is: 1406.4 Pretty darn close, Sheen pulling ahead, plus boosts your E, and is cheaper to boot. Plus extra mana means you can spam it a bit more. And since you're going to miss a few anyway, landing a Q with Sheen is much more devestating for them. --------- As for matchups, I always assume worst case scenario. In game, I'm pretty good against everyone but Cait (her range is annoying), and last hitting isn't a problem. I'm just saying that in the worst case, Sheen is better, and math shows it's pretty damn good in the best case as well. ------ Edit: I realize "training dummy dps" isn't perfect in accounting for variables, it is a good launching point for discussions like this. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
For example: going from 0->10% CDR on a skill gets you an ~11% damage increase. Going from 30->40% gets you a ~17% damage increase. Stuff that gives you flat CDR on top of that makes this disparity significantly larger. Comparing CDR to AD + lifesteal (as in, comparing CDR to Bloodthirsters) doesn't make sense because the stats don't scale the same way. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On October 12 2011 03:18 Requizen wrote: ------ Edit: I realize "training dummy dps" isn't perfect in accounting for variables, it is a good launching point for discussions like this. Except you didn't even factor in the HUGE 15 armor pen from brutalizer, and you assumed that they'd be getting the items at level 5 which is nonsense (do we even play the same game? How can you possible imagine getting cdr boots + sheen/brut by level 5) Furthermore, as you get lucidity boots and more AD, the damage tips further and further in favor of brutalizer. Your math would be very different if you tried to do it at level 9 and beyond, and actually used the right amounts of CDR. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 12 2011 03:29 crate wrote: Again I don't play Ez so I'm not going to chime in on Ezreal-specific stuff like whether Brutalizer or Sheen is better, but as far as CDR goes, it gets more valuable as you get closer to 40% CDR. For example: going from 0->10% CDR on a 10-second CD skill gets you an ~11% damage increase. Going from 30->40% gets you a ~17% damage increase. Stuff that gives you flat CDR on top of that makes this disparity significantly larger. Comparing CDR to AD + lifesteal (as in, comparing CDR to Bloodthirsters) doesn't make sense because the stats don't scale the same way. Oh, there's no arguing CDR is amazing, but is it worth a slot for Brutalizer, a primarily early/mid game item, over any other item just because of the CDR it gives? As you move on, item slots become more and more valuable, and early items either get upgraded (Revolver -> Gunblade on Akali, for instance), or they get sold (Doran's items). Is it really worth getting Brutalizer for the window of the game that it's really strong then selling it later? Or is that 10% CDR worth keeping 20, 25, 30 minutes in? I don't think so, but I could be wrong and I'm open to that. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
With 30% CDR, you shoot 6 Q's in 11 seconds. How much AD do you think you need to compensate for straight up 2 extra Q? | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 12 2011 03:33 Juicyfruit wrote: Except you didn't even factor in the HUGE 15 armor pen from brutalizer, and you assumed that they'd be getting the items at level 5 which is nonsense (do we even play the same game? How can you possible imagine getting cdr boots + sheen/brut by level 5) Furthermore, as you get lucidity boots and more AD, the damage tips further and further in favor of brutalizer. Your math would be very different if you tried to do it at level 9 and beyond, and actually used the right amounts of CDR. Level 5 was just a point where I set the numbers, I even said it's not a perfect scenario in my post. That's how theory crafting works, you pick mirrored numbers for both sides and let it go. 15 ArPen is amazing, but that doesn't even break base armor for any champion by the time you can get it and, as Mogwai always tells me, the more armor they get, the worse flat AD becomes. As you level and get more base damage, the Sheen proc goes up as well. 47.2 + 3/level proc is nothing to scoff at, as the AD added by Brutalizer is only +25 and some ArPen. At level 18 (for argument's sake) that's a 98.2 damage proc, and if you upgrade to TF (which you probably will) it's a 147.3 damage proc every 2 seconds of fighting, which is pretty damn big, and also adds that damage to the pre-fight poke exchange where you can only shoot Qs until someone initiates. That, imo, adds up to more effectiveness than Bruta. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
The thing about Sheen is it has a nice enough passive but it only applies double damage to your base AD. It hits pretty hard early game but for sustained damage getting an early Bruta and then building into Bloodthirstier is better imo. Although I think Bruta into Sheen then BF sword item can work too I'd rather get my BT as soon as possible but I feel that the Brutalizer lets me punish people way harder early game than Sheen. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
15 armor pen isn't a lot later on but it's a hell of a lot at level FIVE, which you yourself set. If you are going to set the level so low, then do the math right with all factors included. You're going to compare trinity force to brutalizer now? Straight up? Really? lol. If you want to talk about cost efficiency, brutalizer + CDR boots + Bloodthister outdamages CDR boots + trinity force by an absurdly large amount. | ||
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