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On October 12 2011 03:47 Juicyfruit wrote:
With 40% CDR, you shoot 8 Q's in 11 seconds.
With 30% CDR, you shoot 6 Q's in 11 seconds.
How much AD do you think you need to compensate for straight up 2 extra Q?
Assuming you're talking about level 18, let's say (and again for argument's sake), that you only have that CDR and the other items are Bruta and Sheen. Unlikely, but but for comparison. 8 Q's for Bruta, 6 for Sheen. Base damage at 18 is 98.2. Base Q is 115, with Bruta 140, with Sheen 120. Like you said, 11 Qs for Bruta, 10 for Sheen. In this case, CD on Q is shorter than ICD on Sheen, so you only get a proc every other attack.
With Bruta, Q does 140 * 8 = 1120
With Sheen, Q does (3 * 120) + (3 * 218.2) = 1014.6
So yes, Brutalizer comes out ahead by 105.4 damage in this case, and will continue to pull slightly ahead the longer you stand there and Q them. But the difference in damage is so small that it's not in the "lolol Sheen sucks you're stupid" territory, which is how your tone is coming across.
However, how many fights last 11 seconds or more? And how often do you get to sit there and Q without being threatened?
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In short, hit and run fights, Sheen pulls ahead. The longer it goes, the more CDR gets to kick in, the better Bruta gets. In the early/mid game, where these items are the most notable, which is more likely to occur?
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So even in the most absurd sheen-favoring scenario, brutalizer STILL pulls ahead? Hahaha..
You also get to use E 3 times in 11 seconds with brutalizer, and 2 times with sheen. Do you count that at all?
Try it again with a Bloodthister factored in now.
Ezreal is a ranged DPS. If you aren't dishing out damage for at least 11 seconds in a teamfight you are worthless.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2011 03:49 Requizen wrote:
Level 5 was just a point where I set the numbers, I even said it's not a perfect scenario in my post. That's how theory crafting works, you pick mirrored numbers for both sides and let it go.
15 ArPen is amazing, but that doesn't even break base armor for any champion by the time you can get it and, as Mogwai always tells me, the more armor they get, the worse flat AD becomes. As you level and get more base damage, the Sheen proc goes up as well. 47.2 + 3/level proc is nothing to scoff at, as the AD added by Brutalizer is only +25 and some ArPen. At level 18 (for argument's sake) that's a 98.2 damage proc, and if you upgrade to TF (which you probably will) it's a 147.3 damage proc every 2 seconds of fighting, which is pretty damn big, and also adds that damage to the pre-fight poke exchange where you can only shoot Qs until someone initiates. That, imo, adds up to more effectiveness than Bruta.
You're spouting a quote out of context when it doesn't actually help your case. In the case of the 1406 dmg Sheen vs 1385 damage Bruta mathcraft you did above, the Bruta still does more damage accounting ArPen even if the target has 300 armor.
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It only pulls ahead in a very small amount, as I said, and your condescending tone is getting annoying :\
If you re-read my posts, I've never said Brutalizer is a bad item. I said "I get Sheen first, here's why", and even mentioned that I generally get Bruta afterward. I simply don't understand why you're being such a jerk about this when the difference (especially in the laning phase before you get BFS/BT) is negligible that one second of lag can make one better over the other. Once you move into late game, you'll have both, and may even sell Brutalizer at some point.
Also, between Chauster and Voyboy (who's guides I've seen and were mentioned earlier), neither get CDR runes and Voyboy doesn't even recommend the CDR boots, Chauster mentions that Merc's are probably better. In that case, having that very nice 40% CDR is only possible with constant Blue, which doesn't generally happen in game, as you'll lose it and it might go to the jungler/mage in your group instead. I don't really feel like doing differentials right now, but I wonder at what point CDR actually outweighs Sheen in that case? With just boots and Bruta, you get 20%, which is probably 1 less Q, which would put Sheen ahead again.
What does that mean? ...It's too variable. With CDR boots (so no heavy CC) and constant blue buff (which you won't have at the low levels where we're debating), Bruta as a first item comes out ahead. With Merc's and having to give Blue to jungler or mage, Sheen first would come out ahead. Can you always rely on either of those scenarios? No. Can you always rely on hitting every Q, auto, and being in a fight to take full advantage of CDR? No. So the argument is kind of moot, is it not?
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having that very nice 40% CDR is only possible with constant Blue, which doesn't generally happen in game, as you'll lose it and it might go to the jungler/mage in your group instead
Lol good luck finding a group that gives the Ezreal Blue every time it's up, not gonna fucking happen. Besides, the fuck is this arguing about, just get both and be done with it. Bitching like women.
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On October 12 2011 04:24 Requizen wrote:
If you re-read my posts, I've never said Brutalizer is a bad item. I said "I get Sheen first, here's why", and even mentioned that I generally get Bruta afterward. I simply don't understand why you're being such a jerk about this when the difference (especially in the laning phase before you get BFS/BT) is negligible that one second of lag can make one better over the other. Once you move into late game, you'll have both, and may even sell Brutalizer at some point.
Because you are wrong, and you are justifying your point of view through nonsense which isn't conducive to a good argument.
You get sheen first. If it works for you, it works. I'm telling you how good players will punish you for such a build if you try to get it for laning... -> low DPS to creeps on top of having naturally no pushing abilities, gonna get creep blocked by anyone who can outpush you which is basically everyone, and going to be forced to waste mana trying to farm and keep your tower alive which is counterproductive to buying an item partially for its mana in the first place.
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On October 12 2011 05:22 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:24 Requizen wrote:
If you re-read my posts, I've never said Brutalizer is a bad item. I said "I get Sheen first, here's why", and even mentioned that I generally get Bruta afterward. I simply don't understand why you're being such a jerk about this when the difference (especially in the laning phase before you get BFS/BT) is negligible that one second of lag can make one better over the other. Once you move into late game, you'll have both, and may even sell Brutalizer at some point.
Because you are wrong, and you are justifying your point of view through nonsense which isn't conducive to a good argument. You get sheen first. If it works for you, it works. I'm telling you how good players will punish you for such a build if you try to get it for laning... -> low DPS to creeps on top of having naturally no pushing abilities, gonna get creep blocked by anyone who can outpush you which is basically everyone, and going to be forced to waste mana trying to farm and keep your tower alive which is counterproductive to buying an item partially for its mana in the first place.
I gave situations where I thought Sheen first would be a viable opener and then backed it up with math. That is basically what a discussion is, I don't see how you call it nonsense.
It's not like I'm just getting Sheen and calling it a day. I generally open Sapphire 2pot (unless I think I need the health/damage early on from DBlade) > boots > finish Sheen. If laning is still going (stuck in mid game), I go Bruta, otherwise BF > BT is my next step.
In my experience, you don't want to push the creep too hard anyway. On the contrary, I have no problem playing passive and being under my tower. Do I want to play aggressively and get that first kill or harass them out of lane? Yes, but that doesn't happen in every single game. If I can't play aggressively and they have dominance of the lane, the sitting back and sniping is a perfectly workable strategy that I have no problem using.
You can't just say "this is my build" and use it every time. Sapphire opening I feel is the most flexible, so I go that, or DBlade if I feel like it. Brutalizer isn't always the right choice, either. On the contrary, I think it's a bad choice if you're already pushing too hard, just save up for a late game item. Being the aggressor is great and all, but if you're sitting at their turret constantly with early game dominance, last hitting while watching turret fire and enemy damage is rather annoying to play.
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When you did math, you used the scenarios:
Level 5 boots 2 + sheen, that's nonsense
Level 18 with nothing but sheen or brutalizer, also nonsense.
Playing passive when you are EZREAL, especially nonsense. You shouldn't aim for that. You shouldn't even be comfortable doing that because that's a losing situation against any other AD carry.
Buying sheen first and especially starting sapphire 2 pots ensures that you can never do anything BUT play passive that only seems to work because your enemies are playing bad.
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On October 12 2011 06:00 Juicyfruit wrote:
When you did math, you used the scenarios:
Level 5 boots 2 + sheen, that's nonsense
Level 18 with nothing but sheen or brutalizer, also nonsense.
Playing passive when you are EZREAL, especially nonsense. You shouldn't aim for that. You shouldn't even be comfortable doing that because that's a losing situation against any other AD carry.
Buying sheen first and especially starting sapphire 2 pots ensures that you can never do anything BUT play passive that only seems to work because your enemies are playing bad.
I used scenarios that were easy to math out. I didn't feel like getting creep spawns, calculating how much gold and experience with perfect farming and running back and forth for buying, I just picked numbers and matched them up. It could have been any level, to be quite honest. I just said "alright, at level 5 I'll be laning. Numbers, ho!", I didn't go out of my way to pick an absurd scenario.
Playing aggressive and winning your lane in 100% of the games you play is also nonsense. There is always someone who plays better or positions better than you, or maybe on the same level but they're playing better this match. Passive play has to happen at times, you can't always run in headlong aggressively and win your lane. I don't aim for it, but Sapphire 2 pots means I'm alright if it happens. I've also played aggressively and gotten first blood opening as such.
I'm not saying this is the best or only way to play Ezreal. I simply put out that it was the way I play, and why I held my opinions, and then defended why it works for me. If you play Bruta first, fine, and the pros do, cool. I'm not the best, but I've not yet lost a game going Sapphire first into fast Sheen, so I think it's a pretty alright way to play. I have, however, lost plenty of DBlade into Bruta games. Is that the build or random happenstance? Maybe the latter, but I'll stick with what works for me.
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If it works for you, that's fine, keep using it. I just don't like it being recommended to other people when you can't reason it out properly.
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On October 12 2011 06:46 Juicyfruit wrote:
If it works for you, that's fine, keep using it. I just don't like it being recommended to other people when you can't reason it out properly.
Well... I guess my reasoning is that I don't generally get into sustained fights with my lane opponent, generally even in farming and poking back and forth when the opportunity arises. For this, I want my Q to hit like a truck whenever I land it, so I get Sheen. Since this is a public forum, I thought I would be able to state my opinion without harassment when I provide mostly logical reasoning :\
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United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2011 06:56 Requizen wrote:
Well... I guess my reasoning is that I don't generally get into sustained fights with my lane opponent, generally even in farming and poking back and forth when the opportunity arises. For this, I want my Q to hit like a truck whenever I land it, so I get Sheen. Since this is a public forum, I thought I would be able to state my opinion without harassment when I provide mostly logical reasoning :\
The thing is, you still haven't provided a compelling reason why you wouldn't get Brutalizer.
On October 12 2011 00:12 Requizen wrote:
I don't really like Brutalizer first on Ez. It's a good early/mid game item, but Ezreal really is more of a mid/late game champ, so it's very super situational to me. Like you said, CDR runes work nicely.
This isnt compelling because it's incorrect--Ezreal is very much an early-midgame focused champion. He gets outscaled late-game by pretty almost every other relevant AD carry. You have to push your early-midgame strength in order for Ezreal to be a compelling pick at all, because come late-game, Vayne/Kog/Trist straight up out-damage you, Cait is superior for sieging towers (similar poking power + superior creep clearing + traps + longer autoattack range), and Ashe has more utility.
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If you're gonna get Brutalizer, always go Brut->Sheen instead Sheen->Brut. However, I feel like Brutalizer first is an outdated build, Wriggles first or just straight up going for Triforce or BT is better IMO. In lane Brutalizer isn't really going to do much since so many people go for the fotm Wriggles. That 30 armor + life steal really nullifies an early Brutalizer's strengths. Unless you're coming out of the trades way ahead, you won't have the sustain to keep up (and also their pushing power will force you to last hit at tower all day). Because of this, I think ADs should focus more on reaching their lategame builds ASAP.
I think Ez is fine in the damage department and only falls off super late game (like 50+ minutes). I was surprised by the Chinese build (I think it was Wriggles->Triforce->LW->Whatever), it did a surprisingly large amount of damage all throughout the game and none of the Chinese Ez's did poorly. Both the EHome and WE Ez's were very strong and arguably did better than Chauster's Ez that tournament (of course Chauster only got one game to showcase his Ez so it could've been a fluke game).
I dunno... maybe it's another play-style issue but I've become much more of an auto-attacking Ez lately. I don't think Zerkers or IE are that bad on Ez as long as you have some life steal of some sort.
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just played my first game as ezreal. i was really underwelmed by his damage, even in the early game. it seems like all his shots require aiming but you arent rewarded by more damage or anything. he is also terrible at clearing out large creep waves and has no utility beyond a second flash ; /
what am i doing wrong? 
rhetorical question i know -_-
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I personally go doran->boots->brut->sheen for bot lane, and honestly I can say brut is much more useful early on than sheen since everything stat it gives just makes ezreal's already strong early game that much stronger.
I've gone sheen into a fast triforce before and it doesn't work as well as brut/sheen/BT. The only scenario where I can see building a fast triforce is if you build wriggles first otherwise the enemy AD will rape you 1v1 :/
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On October 12 2011 08:08 turdburgler wrote:just played my first game as ezreal. i was really underwelmed by his damage, even in the early game. it seems like all his shots require aiming but you arent rewarded by more damage or anything. he is also terrible at clearing out large creep waves and has no utility beyond a second flash ; / what am i doing wrong? rhetorical question i know -_-
He's an all skillshot skills man so every single one you need to aim, its what makes ez so fun and hard to play and master, first you must start with Q=>E=>W of course R when it on.
The play on him is get a D-blade go bot line and start farming, you can use Q for harras when the enemy AD is coming for a creep kill, your Q has a very long range and you can even zone champs with it.
I like to play an agresive ez in line so i run armor pen reds, armor yellows, cdr blues and armor pen quints, this way you have about 25armor pen wich means every single auto deals about 65 with doran and your Q is godlike 95-100 damage at lvl 1.
ez is all about getting a nice early game so you can destroy mid game and do well late game.
Use Q to start every fight, use W is theres a bunch of enemys and/or allys since you get haste bonus for allys and low the haste on enemys+some damage and use E to position/chase/scape tool is very important that you don't use E unless you know you will get a kill or can get away after, since ez is very squishy and if you have E on CD your pretty much dead.
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maybe its just because i was laning against vayne + soraka but it felt like she could just out damage me all game long, ult did nice damage but never enough to actually kill anyone. i dunno maybe i was just behind in farm all game long, it was a losing game anyway ; /
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Playing aggresive against a defensive soraka botlane means you can only really gain anything from it if your support is also aggressively geared, ie. alistar or taric. A gank might also get you a kill or a big enough advantage to outscale their botlane in the first teamfight.
There isn't a tactic or starter that'll magically work in every matchup or a one fits all build to go. You can't expect that to work every time. Simple examples would be going against taric/cait. Even if you can stay about even in cs, she'll simply start outpushing you due to you having poor creepclearing ability early on. That warrants rushing a wriggles early on as opposed to playing against someone like ashe where you can easily go for a quick BT/TF or simply brutalizer/sheen.
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Just a question, does the mana from sheen mean nothing in its consideration as a viable opening? You won't have a soraka every game in lane with you.
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one color of mana regen runes pretty standard on ez, which basically means minimal mana issues in lane. one of the few champs i still run mana regen on
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EPT
