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On April 01 2011 23:57 Flakes wrote:
I've been rushing ghostblade for a long time, nice to see H4cker trying it. I pick up a crit cloak after avarice blade to give me bloodlust stacks, and so I get a little more gold from the rice blade.
I don't like getting wriggles because it delays my IE so much (I'm already getting it after ghostblade, farming a BF that late sucks), but if I had an attack speed-oriented runepage I'd definitely consider it.
I also really dislike opening vamp scepter, it gives you extremely low flexibility, and you WILL lose in lvl 1 fights unless you get lucky crits. I could see vamp scepter with crit% runes, but I hate crit% runes because they are useless lategame on trynd.
edit: If I was going wriggles I'd open cloth 5pot
He said during his game last night that he doesn't particularly like the crit gloves opening but that it does work well.
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On April 02 2011 00:24 Issor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 23:57 Flakes wrote:
I've been rushing ghostblade for a long time, nice to see H4cker trying it. I pick up a crit cloak after avarice blade to give me bloodlust stacks, and so I get a little more gold from the rice blade.
I don't like getting wriggles because it delays my IE so much (I'm already getting it after ghostblade, farming a BF that late sucks), but if I had an attack speed-oriented runepage I'd definitely consider it.
I also really dislike opening vamp scepter, it gives you extremely low flexibility, and you WILL lose in lvl 1 fights unless you get lucky crits. I could see vamp scepter with crit% runes, but I hate crit% runes because they are useless lategame on trynd.
edit: If I was going wriggles I'd open cloth 5pot He said during his game last night that he doesn't particularly like the crit gloves opening but that it does work well.
Does he stream or have any VODs up? it would be interesting to watch him play, the only time I have seen him was one night when he played against eski on stream.
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On April 02 2011 00:32 BloodNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 00:24 Issor wrote:On April 01 2011 23:57 Flakes wrote:
I've been rushing ghostblade for a long time, nice to see H4cker trying it. I pick up a crit cloak after avarice blade to give me bloodlust stacks, and so I get a little more gold from the rice blade.
I don't like getting wriggles because it delays my IE so much (I'm already getting it after ghostblade, farming a BF that late sucks), but if I had an attack speed-oriented runepage I'd definitely consider it.
I also really dislike opening vamp scepter, it gives you extremely low flexibility, and you WILL lose in lvl 1 fights unless you get lucky crits. I could see vamp scepter with crit% runes, but I hate crit% runes because they are useless lategame on trynd.
edit: If I was going wriggles I'd open cloth 5pot He said during his game last night that he doesn't particularly like the crit gloves opening but that it does work well. Does he stream or have any VODs up? it would be interesting to watch him play, the only time I have seen him was one night when he played against eski on stream.
He's a streamer for solomid. He didn't stream any of the games he played last night, though.
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Finland33997 Posts
When laning you should always open cloth armor or reju beads.
When jungling I find that it's incredibly difficult to open Avarice. Basically you'll be relying on lucky crits and if you don't get them, you might die to the blue wraith. Kind of need to smite it in that case.
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I take back everything I've said in this thread, Wriggles is amazing on jungle Trynd. Jungle creeps have zero magic resist, and the proc is magic now, making you even faster . I think H4cker knows it too, he's getting Wriggles again.
Now that IE is so good I think I'm just going to go Berserker's greaves + Wriggles into IE. I don't have an attackspeed page, otherwise I'd probably get merc treads right off, but I don't mind selling Berserker's later to get em (or keep zerker's if enemy doesn't have much CC)
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On April 15 2011 12:00 Flakes wrote:
I take back everything I've said in this thread, Wriggles is amazing on jungle Trynd. Jungle creeps have zero magic resist, and the proc is magic now, making you even faster . I think H4cker knows it too, he's getting Wriggles again.
Now that IE is so good I think I'm just going to go Berserker's greaves + Wriggles into IE. I don't have an attackspeed page, otherwise I'd probably get merc treads right off, but I don't mind selling Berserker's later to get em (or keep zerker's if enemy doesn't have much CC)
It was amazing before too, now its just even better outside of creepkilling :D (more lifesteal)
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Finland33997 Posts
I'm not sure about how much pure critrate stuff to get before IE now. Currently I get Wriggles and 1-3 Avarices depending on how many I can buy at once / how quickly I can get them, and then Inf edge starting with a cloak. After that Youmu, PD, LW and it's been working pretty well. The inf edge buffs helped a great deal.
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dear god i just witnessed the most brutal rape by a trynda EVER
the man said he had a full page of crit runes, and with gauntlets had over 40% crit chance at level 1.
Proceeded to first blood, get an PD in the first 10 minutes and rape all day long
i swear to god endless gay is soooooooo broken on a champ that crits over 1000 xD
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You are probably level 5.
That's such a terrible build, getting all crit rate is useless once you get full items. With IE and PD you have like 70% crit or something at full hp..
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Anyone ever try the bellaflica/cowboys tryn opener?
You get armor yellows, blue mresist
Farm and get 3 avarice blades and get IE --> finish mercury's --> Youmuus.
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Finland33997 Posts
On May 01 2011 15:11 PBC wrote:
dear god i just witnessed the most brutal rape by a trynda EVER
the man said he had a full page of crit runes, and with gauntlets had over 40% crit chance at level 1.
Proceeded to first blood, get an PD in the first 10 minutes and rape all day long
i swear to god endless gay is soooooooo broken on a champ that crits over 1000 xD
That build is terrible. How about disabling him and killing him when he can't get close? Or getting some armor and laughing at the 80 dmg crits?
On May 04 2011 02:00 yellowguan wrote:
Anyone ever try the bellaflica/cowboys tryn opener?
You get armor yellows, blue mresist
Farm and get 3 avarice blades and get IE --> finish mercury's --> Youmuus.
That's the "oldschool" build and it's okay although the early game is super weak and you rely on your teammates to disable them before you have movespeed from youmu. Really strong if it works though.
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What always bugs me is whether or not to grab crit chance or armor pen in your rune page, i have both, but i don't exactly know which one is better in the beginning, especially for the first gank + controlling dragon.
Anyone know a link or calculation to which is better? be much appreciated
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Finland33997 Posts
armor pen is better for everything but lane sustainability and jungling
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On May 06 2011 09:59 yellowguan wrote:
What always bugs me is whether or not to grab crit chance or armor pen in your rune page, i have both, but i don't exactly know which one is better in the beginning, especially for the first gank + controlling dragon.
Anyone know a link or calculation to which is better? be much appreciated
The value of crit chance goes up the more AD you have.
If you have 60 AD, then 20% crit chance will give you 20% chance of +60 damage, so it's roughly as valuable as 60*0.2 = 12 AD.
If you have 200 AD, then 20% crit chance will give you 20% chance of +200 damage, so it's roughly as valuable as 200*0.2 = 40 AD.
Getting 20% crit chance costs just as much, gold-wise or runes-wise, in both cases, and yet the benefit you get from that 20% crit chance is very different in those two cases.
Taking the gold cost of Brawler's gloves and Longswords as baseline, 20% crit chance would be 2.5 brawler's gloves or 1000g worth of crit items; if you'd spent that 1000g on longsword-equivalent items, you could have bought 2.4 longswords worth of AD, or 24 AD.
12 AD < 24 AD < 40 AD, so if you only have 60 AD, then it's more worthwhile to spend your gold on AD than on crit; if you have 200 AD, then it's more worthwhile to spend your gold on crit than on AD.
The breakeven point between AD and crit is 125 AD; getting crit is a viable option at that point. Because you have a lot less than 125 AD at level 1, AD > crit at that point. You can do the same calculation with Runes as the scarce resource instead of gold, and the result will also be favorable to AD over crit.
TL;DR: Crit is a great lategame stat, but it's a lousy earlygame stat.
All of this ONLY considers the effect of the two stats on your autoattack; beyond this analysis, you should look for the synergy between the stats and your champion's skills. Jarman and Renekton get a lot of synergy with AD and armor pen on their skills, and no synergy from crit, so you'll want to favor AD and armor pen on them; Trynd has great synergy with crit on his skillset, so you'll want more crit on him than on most champions.
Finally, armor pen's value increases the closer to 0 you can get your target's armor (and if you manage to get it to 0, then additional armor pen does nothing and is worthless); against very high armor targets, armor pen is an awful stat. Early game, champions tend to have little armor, so it's good against them- but minions have no armor, so armor pen is wasted against those.
Pretty long-winded rant from me, but that's how the theory works behind all of that. As for the practical part, you'll need an actual Trynd player to tell you what works better in their experience, and I don't play Trynd.
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Scy raping with Tryndamere at 2300 elo. Maybe he could write a guide :o
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jungle tryn guide:
vamp scepter
atk spd/arpen runes
start at wraith
get q first
build wriggles
go around killing stuff
the end~
so u can be sure i am credible source:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r4o8n.png)
that's me on ano shipal doing pro jungle tryn
<3
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On May 06 2011 10:54 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 09:59 yellowguan wrote:
What always bugs me is whether or not to grab crit chance or armor pen in your rune page, i have both, but i don't exactly know which one is better in the beginning, especially for the first gank + controlling dragon.
Anyone know a link or calculation to which is better? be much appreciated The value of crit chance goes up the more AD you have. If you have 60 AD, then 20% crit chance will give you 20% chance of +60 damage, so it's roughly as valuable as 60*0.2 = 12 AD. If you have 200 AD, then 20% crit chance will give you 20% chance of +200 damage, so it's roughly as valuable as 200*0.2 = 40 AD. Getting 20% crit chance costs just as much, gold-wise or runes-wise, in both cases, and yet the benefit you get from that 20% crit chance is very different in those two cases. Taking the gold cost of Brawler's gloves and Longswords as baseline, 20% crit chance would be 2.5 brawler's gloves or 1000g worth of crit items; if you'd spent that 1000g on longsword-equivalent items, you could have bought 2.4 longswords worth of AD, or 24 AD. 12 AD < 24 AD < 40 AD, so if you only have 60 AD, then it's more worthwhile to spend your gold on AD than on crit; if you have 200 AD, then it's more worthwhile to spend your gold on crit than on AD. The breakeven point between AD and crit is 125 AD; getting crit is a viable option at that point. Because you have a lot less than 125 AD at level 1, AD > crit at that point. You can do the same calculation with Runes as the scarce resource instead of gold, and the result will also be favorable to AD over crit. TL;DR: Crit is a great lategame stat, but it's a lousy earlygame stat. All of this ONLY considers the effect of the two stats on your autoattack; beyond this analysis, you should look for the synergy between the stats and your champion's skills. Jarman and Renekton get a lot of synergy with AD and armor pen on their skills, and no synergy from crit, so you'll want to favor AD and armor pen on them; Trynd has great synergy with crit on his skillset, so you'll want more crit on him than on most champions. Finally, armor pen's value increases the closer to 0 you can get your target's armor (and if you manage to get it to 0, then additional armor pen does nothing and is worthless); against very high armor targets, armor pen is an awful stat. Early game, champions tend to have little armor, so it's good against them- but minions have no armor, so armor pen is wasted against those. Pretty long-winded rant from me, but that's how the theory works behind all of that. As for the practical part, you'll need an actual Trynd player to tell you what works better in their experience, and I don't play Trynd.
uh what?
Crit increases in value the more AD you have, true, but AD also increases in value the more crit you have. Apen has the same relationship: it's also more valuable the more AD or Crit you have.
If you have 125 AD and 0% crit, yea, crit is what you should go for, but if you have 125 AD and 80% crit, you need more AD.
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On May 06 2011 10:54 Zato-1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 09:59 yellowguan wrote:
What always bugs me is whether or not to grab crit chance or armor pen in your rune page, i have both, but i don't exactly know which one is better in the beginning, especially for the first gank + controlling dragon.
Anyone know a link or calculation to which is better? be much appreciated The value of crit chance goes up the more AD you have. If you have 60 AD, then 20% crit chance will give you 20% chance of +60 damage, so it's roughly as valuable as 60*0.2 = 12 AD. If you have 200 AD, then 20% crit chance will give you 20% chance of +200 damage, so it's roughly as valuable as 200*0.2 = 40 AD. Getting 20% crit chance costs just as much, gold-wise or runes-wise, in both cases, and yet the benefit you get from that 20% crit chance is very different in those two cases. Taking the gold cost of Brawler's gloves and Longswords as baseline, 20% crit chance would be 2.5 brawler's gloves or 1000g worth of crit items; if you'd spent that 1000g on longsword-equivalent items, you could have bought 2.4 longswords worth of AD, or 24 AD. 12 AD < 24 AD < 40 AD, so if you only have 60 AD, then it's more worthwhile to spend your gold on AD than on crit; if you have 200 AD, then it's more worthwhile to spend your gold on crit than on AD. The breakeven point between AD and crit is 125 AD; getting crit is a viable option at that point. Because you have a lot less than 125 AD at level 1, AD > crit at that point. You can do the same calculation with Runes as the scarce resource instead of gold, and the result will also be favorable to AD over crit. TL;DR: Crit is a great lategame stat, but it's a lousy earlygame stat. All of this ONLY considers the effect of the two stats on your autoattack; beyond this analysis, you should look for the synergy between the stats and your champion's skills. Jarman and Renekton get a lot of synergy with AD and armor pen on their skills, and no synergy from crit, so you'll want to favor AD and armor pen on them; Trynd has great synergy with crit on his skillset, so you'll want more crit on him than on most champions. Finally, armor pen's value increases the closer to 0 you can get your target's armor (and if you manage to get it to 0, then additional armor pen does nothing and is worthless); against very high armor targets, armor pen is an awful stat. Early game, champions tend to have little armor, so it's good against them- but minions have no armor, so armor pen is wasted against those. Pretty long-winded rant from me, but that's how the theory works behind all of that. As for the practical part, you'll need an actual Trynd player to tell you what works better in their experience, and I don't play Trynd.
Interesting stuff, but not really applicable to Tryndamere, who gains a lot more from crits than other champs. Furthermore, earlygame Trynd has anywhere from 10-50% crit based on his health, and the AD/crit damage he gains from bloodlust only increase the value of crits further. Since trynd hits 100% crit extremely easily lategame, crit% runes are only marginally useful. The only other way to get more crits through runes is through attack speed. This is why attack speed runes are amazing on jungle trynd. Throw in arpen reds or quints as well, but both is probably overkill on a jungler. Trynd is generally not looking for a fight before level 6 (unless you are me and open green elixir).
So now you have AS, crit% passive, and some arpen, even if it's just from masteries. What's left? AD and lifesteal, and there's an item for that! in other words:
On May 06 2011 21:13 unichan wrote:
jungle tryn guide:
vamp scepter
atk spd/arpen runes
get q first
build wriggles
go around killing stuff
the end~
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On May 07 2011 00:42 APurpleCow wrote:
uh what?
Crit increases in value the more AD you have, true, but AD also increases in value the more crit you have. Apen has the same relationship: it's also more valuable the more AD or Crit you have.
If you have 125 AD and 0% crit, yea, crit is what you should go for, but if you have 125 AD and 80% crit, you need more AD.
This is true. However, I didn't say the opposite:
On May 06 2011 10:54 Zato-1 wrote:
The breakeven point between AD and crit is 125 AD; getting crit is a viable option at that point.
What I meant was, as far as autoattacks go, you should NOT get crit before 125 AD, making crit runes very shitty because they're an important part of your earlygame resource pool and crit sucks as a stat earlygame. Still not sure if they're viable for Trynd though.
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I like the discussion this thread is moving onto,
The values of critchance/critdmg/armor pen for Tryndamere reds are varied, along with many of the other types of glyphs.. and many HIGH ELO players who play Tryndamere have very varied rune pages and playstyles:
For Jungling,
H4ckerv2, probably the most renowned Tryndamere and most heavily discussed in this thread, he obviously uses ASPD and ARPEN, along with CDR, there's nothing else to discuss about him.
Bellaflica, among other tryndameres (I saw cowboys use this rune page) employs yellow armors, mresists at 18, ARPEN, and most interestingly, movespd quints, (As discussed before, he needs this for the 3 avarice build) are also pretty successful Tryndameres.
For Laning,
ENFOTHESLAYER before the Tryndamere 5 second ult nerf/buff used crit chance and LITERALLY carried himself up to 1800 ELO (check his champions played, 2nd most played is 10 games with Ashe), however, his recent games have been showing lack of ability, so he probably hasn't adjusted to this new patch. One thing worth noting is that he even dedicates his rune pages to situations for ranked play, something I would like to go more in depth...
However, there's one Tryndamere that has quite possibly the most outrageous rune page,
Jenika has junk for a runepage, but the most important thing from his rune page is crit dmg and move speed, and despite this, his win ratio is 57% and he played a whopping 400 games. I have no idea how he plays Tryndamere, but it must be a treat to watch.
Scyx17 lately has also been playing Tryndamere, i'd like to see how he plays him
So from what i've collected the most viable
Reds: ARPen/Crit DMG/Crit Chance/Aspd
Yellows:Armor/Aspd/CritChance
Blues:Mresist/Aspd/CDR
Quints: Anything mentioned from the red plus movespeed
EDIT: I have a question concerning h4cker's heart of gold + phage playstyle as of late, his stream is on right now and i wonder why he goes this route, any answers?
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EPT
