|
United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2011 07:26 EvilCheeseMan wrote:
Just wondering on what yall's opinion of this jungle route is.
Blue, Wolves, wait for smite to come back up hit big ghost and get ghosts. Level three pillar then go ganking. I then complete my jungle and keep playing like normal. I have had success with it, but at relatively low ELO. I use the early ganks to keep the mid on their toes.
Why would you waste time waiting for smite? It's not like you get low doing wraiths.
And I would never *plan* around an off-beat gank like that. Take the opportunity if it arises (e.g. if their mid is overextended), but assess the situation after you clear wraiths. If you're deliberately slowing down your jungle, your gank has to accomplish something for it to be worthwhile.
|
On June 29 2011 07:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 07:26 EvilCheeseMan wrote:
Just wondering on what yall's opinion of this jungle route is.
Blue, Wolves, wait for smite to come back up hit big ghost and get ghosts. Level three pillar then go ganking. I then complete my jungle and keep playing like normal. I have had success with it, but at relatively low ELO. I use the early ganks to keep the mid on their toes. Why would you waste time waiting for smite? It's not like you get low doing wraiths. And I would never *plan* around an off-beat gank like that. Take the opportunity if it arises (e.g. if their mid is overextended), but assess the situation after you clear wraiths. If you're deliberately slowing down your jungle, your gank has to accomplish something for it to be worthwhile.
Good point on the smite. I carry 5 health pots and cloth to start so I can just eat an extra pot. Also, I usually play duo with people if not more. They know my Trundle and I tell them to let mid or bot push so I can get a good hit. It makes sense though to push off the gank if it will fail.
|
You should be able to run a pretty standard jungle path to 4, Blue > Wolves > Wraiths > Red > Little Golems, if you're runed out you can usually have enough health left over to gank if you wait to Q until just after Auto attacks, without Runes ganking at that point can be kind of sketchy.
Normally, Q W Q E Q R, but sometimes I'll E before W at level 2 if top lane is already over extending or if I want to pressure mid.
If I think I can get away with it I'll do something like Q E Q(Wraiths to to 3), then try to force mid to burn summoners, then Red and back to mid if they burned the summoners. This is solely dependent on the match up in mid because your main job as jungler is to control your jungle and stay caught up in levels, ganks are more of a bonus when players make mistakes.
|
Hi ,
Can you help me and point out reasons why Trundle is barely picked in LOL?
If I knew all his current weakness I could better try and find ways how to counter them and improve my game.
Thnx in advance
I'll start and give my assumptions . ( I have some 50+ Trundle jungle games behind me thou not the best text layout skills )
My build : 6x Apen 3xAD // 9x flat arm // 9x Mr's /lvl // 3x AD
Golems -> Wraiths -> Wolves -> Blue -> BACK -> Wraiths -> Red -> Golems -> Gank
Open Scepter -> Boots +2pots -> Wrigles -> Mercs -> Tri force or Aegis
Goal: One lane won + solo dragon at lv6
Summary: Trundle is awesome in early game . Jungles fast and cheap ( No pots wasted ) . Ganks hard with Poop pillar and Red . With blue his Q is spamable and does serious dmg.
Now I reached my assumptions why Trundle isn't picked much : Mid game dmg -> Late game dmg
These are ROUGH examples!!!
Trundle has Q and ''kinda'' R + auto attacks as his direct means of doing dmg.
( Jarvan has aoe Q aoe E + nuke R with utility // Irelia gets dmg from 4 skills + sustain etc)
Since his dmg comes from auto attacks + Q with aspd boost from W ( and W is locked to area) he needs Items to increase dmg.
Trundle is jungler and without burst to Ks so I find myself poor throughout all my games to buy items thus no dmg late game.
I managed to finish Tri-force 5 out of my 50 games before game ended EVEN when my team was doing great and until Tri-force is made the separate parts don't provide much dmg besides utility. So quite often I just build Aegis and try to ward map / set up kills for my team and control dragon.
Trundle is also melee and has no hard CC or insta gap closer.
(Trundle does have W and E both wery unique skills and reason why I find Trundle so fun , but it pales when compared to Jarvan Irelia Renek etc)
Contaminate lets Trundle chase and position in fights to land E so your team-mates can snipe the separated enemies.
I find that E actually works best in defence rather then offence. If you chase some1 for kill they will Shunpo/flash/dash/leap etc etc out of poop pilar. E is great when some1chases your mates and you land poop in between enemy and your mate, thus enemy can extend and die or back off.
My two other Junglers are Mumu and Rammus .
Mumu has infamous R . Gap closer Q with dmg . Aoe W witch gets stronger as game goes on and enemy get more HP . E to farm free lanes and deal additional dmg in fights.
Rammus chases and sets up ganks with Q . Gets free immortal mode with W . 3 sec taunt with E . Low CD R to farm and cripple ppl in team fights.
Reason why I pick Trundle above them in jungle : I HATE how mumu and rammus needs to open blue and get ganked 50% of time , their routes are so predictable, without blue they are screwed. Also I dislike poor dragon control on mumu and rammus as Wrigles Trundle owns dragon at 6 solo and afterwards can quickly repeat it each spawn + gets free ward each 3min.
Without blue Trundle can still just wrigle creeps and continu farm to catch up.
TL:DR
Trundle trades his end game for awesome start game. You need to make your team get ahead in first 10+ minutes so they can cover your lack of dmg in late game. Control dragon and ward.
Trundle doesn't get loads of kills and spends most of money on wards and building 1 big item per game.
Trundle is unique creature with fun skill set.
Sadly underplayed , thus each time when I get my team ahead in game (with character I myself have seen 4 times in 400 games)
I go to mid lane -> pres Shift + 4 and become a wery happy Troll
|
tl;dr: Don't post guides when you have some basic wrong misconceptions that somehow still carry you through normal games with buddies.
Erhm.
a) MPen on Trundle. Wtf. Why? You're only use for that would be for your R and sacrificing ArPen for that is... bad.
b) Amumu and Rammus can both open Golems, also opening Blue is stilll the best option for trundle since he has strong early ganks you want to capitalize on asap (with both buffs). The route you're suggesting is optimal for junglers that want to get their lvl 6 asap (Nocturne/Yi/Warwick) or if you expect to encounter heavy counterjungling. It's not the optimal full clear speed and therefore results in late ganks.
Edit: And even if you want the fast lvl 6 route, wolves -> golems, back, blue -> full clear is the fastest way to level up.
c) As any terrain spell, Trundles E is great both offensively and defensively. So they flashed over it? Nice, brb in 1min. A terrain spell is never only one thing. Jarv Ult and Anvia W have also tons of possible usages.
d) Trundle not being strong lategame? Wat. Triforce/Atmogs works, Frozen Mallet/Atmogs works, I'd assume even wits end works. Trundle has huge anti-cc, AoE cc and an ult that makes him basicly invulnerable for the duration if used properly.
Your assumption that he's bad lategame most likely comes from you failing early.
The reason Trundle is rarely picked these days is that he has the same syndrome e.g. Olaf has. You need solid farm and/or lots of ganks to get the items for your insane lategame, basicly turning the jungle into a 3rd solo lane. Most teams want "real" tanks in the jungle since they need less farm and can still do their job (Amu/Rammus/Cho/Nunu) OR they want squishy assassin type junglers that can make carries explode the whole game long (Yi/Nocturne/Shaco).
Personally, when we have a strong tanky dps solo top (e.g. Jarv/Irelia/Yorick) I often opt for stuff like Olaf/Trundle/tanky versions of Noc/Yi since the need for a "pure" tank isn't that huge in those comps. When your team runs double AP or something not that tanky solo top, the "real" tank junglers are a better option.
For runes: ArPen/Armor/Mres per level should be standard on trundle. If you really want, throw in some AS runes.
|
It wasn't ment to be guide , juts bunch of random IMO stuff I hoped to get some feedback on ( And I got it thnx )
A) Noob typo , was supposed to be Apen 10 and AD 9,6 to 3hit Wraith
b) My games are with pugs. Even if some1 leashes Blue in next 10 sec you can expect 1-2 champs to come pay me a visit XD (I try tell my team not tot leash and leave me alone until at least 3x enemy champs can be seen on minimap , but they all rush to lanes as soon as creeps collide) . Getting killed or even driven back from Jungle is a huge setback and thus starting mini gols with Vamp scepter is way more calming. Also I like my blue late …. On champs I kill blue and do full run before B I loose blue buff as soon as I gank one lane ( Masteries 0/21/9 ) .
Late blue lets me gank 2-3 lanes before it rans out ( Setback might be later blue respawn to give to your ap carries )
c) Ofc wasted sumoner is also nice.
d) That's not how I ment it. Trundle has great kit for endgame once he gets itemized , BUT I barely get enough funds for Tri force in my games not to mention 4-6 items. As I wrote Trundle gets his omph out of auto attacks and Q spam and those scale with AD and offence items. Good start game involves many successful ganks and demoralized enemy team = 20 minute surrender. Standard games all the kills go to ap/ad caries and the games in general don't have many kills and I find it hard to fund Trundles items with assists alone. Games where I fail I build Aegis and try to keep real dps alive. Same time Jarman/Irelia for example gets stronger just with Lvl's as their skills lvl up while Trundle with lv1 or 5 E wount kill more.
The reason Trundle is rarely picked these days is that he has the same syndrome e.g. Olaf has. You need solid farm and/or lots of ganks to get the items for your insane lategame
THIS tottaly agree and that's what I ment with bad mid-end game . Trundle doesn't get enough farm kills to fund his late game. He is decent , but ofc in competitive play ppl will want champion who brings more to play with same farm aka Mumu , Rammus as stuns / taunts don't need items .
Once again thnx for feedback
PS: Some1 has replay's or streems featuring Trundle ?
|
nightwalks
i consider myself a very good trundle and i have a ton of experience playing him
you are correct in his early game being much stronger than his lategame, but he doesn't completely fall off lategame
one of his biggest strengths is that he's a 1v1 GOD especially against melee dps. i'm sure you can see how this lends itself to him being a top-tier counterjungler. when your AD is increased by 40 and your opponent's is decreased by 20 they have great incentive to not engage you alone. in the event that you get caught out of position in their jungle, your contaminate and pillar of filth make it so you'll nearly always escape
he can gank as early as level 2 (which i frequently do) and i nearly always get a kill or 2 blown summoners at level 2. he needs no leash for blue so his route is really flexible
my personal favorite is: enemy twin golems -> gank -> your blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems -> back/gank -> red -> gank
once you hit level 6 and have wriggles you can take dragon really really easily (unless you have bad luck with razor procs and don't get any)
in terms of item builds, in solo queue you'll always get enough gold to get triforce. in arraged 5s where you want to funnel the farm to real carries, it's better to build HP. i'll often start regrowth instead of cloth + 5, get an early philo, an early HoG, and then build into whatever HP items i can (phage, shurelias, aegis) because HP is fking BOSS on trundle. HP + your ult on their tank = you're alistar for 7 seconds or w/e it is. plus shurelia's and pillar is a game-changing combo for teamfights. their whole team slowed by 40% and your whole team sped up by 40%? yes please
anyways, enough talk. here's a replay of me playing trundle against some high elo players and doing pretty well. in my opinion this route and playstyle are the best way to play the troll \o/
http://www.mediafire.com/?494ftagp0h6bsc4
|
Trundle and olaf both suffer from the same syndrome currently: as tanky jungle specialists, they rely on being super farmed in order to reach their full potential. That is hard to do in a jungle, especially when the alternative is fielding a broken laner top like jarman, udyr, ww, ect who can farm, never get pushed out of lane, and hit the super tanky-survive-till-everyone-else-is-dead mode a lot faster than jungles can.
ATM they suffer from a simple problem: their role can be filled better by someone else.
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2011 01:47 gtrsrs wrote:nightwalks i consider myself a very good trundle and i have a ton of experience playing him you are correct in his early game being much stronger than his lategame, but he doesn't completely fall off lategame one of his biggest strengths is that he's a 1v1 GOD especially against melee dps. i'm sure you can see how this lends itself to him being a top-tier counterjungler. when your AD is increased by 40 and your opponent's is decreased by 20 they have great incentive to not engage you alone. in the event that you get caught out of position in their jungle, your contaminate and pillar of filth make it so you'll nearly always escape he can gank as early as level 2 (which i frequently do) and i nearly always get a kill or 2 blown summoners at level 2. he needs no leash for blue so his route is really flexible my personal favorite is: enemy twin golems -> gank -> your blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems -> back/gank -> red -> gank once you hit level 6 and have wriggles you can take dragon really really easily (unless you have bad luck with razor procs and don't get any) in terms of item builds, in solo queue you'll always get enough gold to get triforce. in arraged 5s where you want to funnel the farm to real carries, it's better to build HP. i'll often start regrowth instead of cloth + 5, get an early philo, an early HoG, and then build into whatever HP items i can (phage, shurelias, aegis) because HP is fking BOSS on trundle. HP + your ult on their tank = you're alistar for 7 seconds or w/e it is. plus shurelia's and pillar is a game-changing combo for teamfights. their whole team slowed by 40% and your whole team sped up by 40%? yes please anyways, enough talk. here's a replay of me playing trundle against some high elo players and doing pretty well. in my opinion this route and playstyle are the best way to play the troll \o/ http://www.mediafire.com/?494ftagp0h6bsc4
The minigol jack feels a bit weak. It puts you up a bit of XP/gold, but at the risk of getting caught, and delaying your red gank, and is not all that disruptive against lots of blue-start junglers who might not get there till they respawn. I can see it being hugely disruptive vs. small clear junglers like Yi and Nocturne though.
Do you really skip Wriggles in arranged? I feel like the free ward plus massive increase in jungle speed (since Trundle is pretty much exclusively an autoattacker in jungle with an Aspd buff and autoattack timer reset, his speed benefits from Wriggles more than almost anyone else) is well worth it compared to the gp10 items, not to mention the early Dragon pressure you brought up yourself.
|
On July 15 2011 02:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 01:47 gtrsrs wrote:nightwalks i consider myself a very good trundle and i have a ton of experience playing him you are correct in his early game being much stronger than his lategame, but he doesn't completely fall off lategame one of his biggest strengths is that he's a 1v1 GOD especially against melee dps. i'm sure you can see how this lends itself to him being a top-tier counterjungler. when your AD is increased by 40 and your opponent's is decreased by 20 they have great incentive to not engage you alone. in the event that you get caught out of position in their jungle, your contaminate and pillar of filth make it so you'll nearly always escape he can gank as early as level 2 (which i frequently do) and i nearly always get a kill or 2 blown summoners at level 2. he needs no leash for blue so his route is really flexible my personal favorite is: enemy twin golems -> gank -> your blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems -> back/gank -> red -> gank once you hit level 6 and have wriggles you can take dragon really really easily (unless you have bad luck with razor procs and don't get any) in terms of item builds, in solo queue you'll always get enough gold to get triforce. in arraged 5s where you want to funnel the farm to real carries, it's better to build HP. i'll often start regrowth instead of cloth + 5, get an early philo, an early HoG, and then build into whatever HP items i can (phage, shurelias, aegis) because HP is fking BOSS on trundle. HP + your ult on their tank = you're alistar for 7 seconds or w/e it is. plus shurelia's and pillar is a game-changing combo for teamfights. their whole team slowed by 40% and your whole team sped up by 40%? yes please anyways, enough talk. here's a replay of me playing trundle against some high elo players and doing pretty well. in my opinion this route and playstyle are the best way to play the troll \o/ http://www.mediafire.com/?494ftagp0h6bsc4 The minigol jack feels a bit weak. It puts you up a bit of XP/gold, but at the risk of getting caught, and delaying your red gank, and is not all that disruptive against lots of blue-start junglers who might not get there till they respawn. I can see it being hugely disruptive vs. small clear junglers like Yi and Nocturne though. Do you really skip Wriggles in arranged? I feel like the free ward plus massive increase in jungle speed (since Trundle is pretty much exclusively an autoattacker in jungle with an Aspd buff and autoattack timer reset, his speed benefits from Wriggles more than almost anyone else) is well worth it compared to the gp10 items, not to mention the early Dragon pressure you brought up yourself.
well, no
it's extremely disruptive to blue starters, as they'll do wraiths and not have enough exp to do red, but no other camps to do. it delays an enemy gank by a good minute or so while they scramble around looking for what to do
i rarely get caught at minigolems, it doesn't put you up "a little" exp it's an entire level and free gank early, plus since trundle doesn't need a leash for blue it's worth it to start in the enemy jungle since you'll clear your own just fine
and errr... i didn't skip wriggles did i? i didn't mean skip wriggles in favor of HP, i meant skip triforce in favor of HP
|
you ding 3 with blue, wolves, wraiths. Thats enough exp to do red. Minigol jack does nothing, especially when you consider that you can just b at 3.5, go do wolves again and ding 4 and gank.
|
... twin golem jack is a free camp that your opponent cannot retaliate against, that leads to first blood top or blown summoners 90% of the time. trundle isn't about fast clears and needing red to gank. his level 2 gank is superb. he's an adaptive counterjungler. you will never die to any camp so you can do any camp at any time, which means that starting in their jungle is much more efficient because it (a)gives you extra camps, and (b)deprives the opponent of camps. this is not hard to understand. and many champs can't do red at 3 after getting low from wraiths (which have the highest dps of any camp iirc). pirate, yorrick, xin, mumu, nocturne, yi, rammus, lee sin... in fact the only junglers who i think minigolem DOESN'T fuck are trundle himself, ww, udyr, and nunu.
|
Your jungling sucks then. Every single one of those champs (save yorick, as I havent jungled him to test) can do a standard blue-wolves-wraiths-red-gols clear. So no. Minigol jack fucks no one. Not to mention that if you jack minigols right as they start, they will spawn again by the time you finish red anyway. So basically you slow down your jungle for absolutely nothing.
|
yea, tons of jungles have absolutely no problem with doing a full blue --> wolves --> wraiths --> red --> golems clear >_>
i think it might be due to your armor/level seals instead of flat armor.
|
i fail to see how taking a different camp slows me down at all, while it opens up gank opportunities and hurts the other jungler. just watch the replay. you're just plain wrong, that's all there is to it, i'm sorry
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2011 03:33 gtrsrs wrote:
... twin golem jack is a free camp that your opponent cannot retaliate against, that leads to first blood top or blown summoners 90% of the time. trundle isn't about fast clears and needing red to gank. his level 2 gank is superb. he's an adaptive counterjungler. you will never die to any camp so you can do any camp at any time, which means that starting in their jungle is much more efficient because it (a)gives you extra camps, and (b)deprives the opponent of camps. this is not hard to understand. and many champs can't do red at 3 after getting low from wraiths (which have the highest dps of any camp iirc). pirate, yorrick, xin, mumu, nocturne, yi, rammus, lee sin... in fact the only junglers who i think minigolem DOESN'T fuck are trundle himself, ww, udyr, and nunu.
Its hardly a free camp seeing as a top/bot laner leaving their team's blue can very likely pass you on the way to lane. The only way they WOULDN'T pass you is if they're retarded and going through jungle/river to get to lane, facechecking all the easy FB spots along the way.
How is gank after twingol jack any different from gank after blue? A level 2 gank isn't an argument for or against twingol jack.
And those example junglers are pretty poor:
Xin, Nocturne, and Yi are all small clear junglers that clear a round of small camps before doing a full clear. You can royally screw them if they started wolves but there's a 50% chance they start twingols and you just waste time going there, and potentially can get caught.
Pirate, Rammus, and Amumu all do red perfectly fine without twingols. Pirate gets low if he got Q instead of W at 2 for a fast level 2 gank (which potentially delays his clear long enough for the twingols to respawn anyway), and Mummy gets low if he went Regrowth (which is why TheOddOne and Dan Dinh start Cloth+5pot so they have the flexibility to handle stupid shit like weird steals), but under normal setups, they clear wraiths at high enough HP to go straight to red.
Don't play Lee Sin but isn't he also a small clear jungler? Also haven't played a ton of jungle Yorick but from testing his sustain is stupid good--with a good leash, a cloth+5pot start finishes with 2-3 pots remaining and has zero trouble doing red after wraiths.
On July 15 2011 04:04 gtrsrs wrote:
i fail to see how taking a different camp slows me down at all, while it opens up gank opportunities and hurts the other jungler. just watch the replay. you're just plain wrong, that's all there is to it, i'm sorry
It doesn't slow you down but it pushes back your red gank (which is considerably stronger than your level 2 gank) to the point where the solo lanes are hitting 6 and many of them (e.g. Irelia, Alistar, Annie, Malzahar, etc.), are gaining abilities that make them harder to gank, and all lanes are bluepilling for wards.
|
United States47024 Posts
Just as a follow-up to the topic of a level 1 twingol jack, I tested this in a custom game, and if their laner leaves the enemy blue at 1:30, they pass you doing twingols when you start them at ~1:50 when you've gotten maybe 3 hits on the minigolems--you'll never practically get both minigolems, and you'll only get 1 of them if you use smite, AND if they got vision of you, you lose your level 2 gank opportunity because they saw you there. You can't start them when they spawn at 1:40 because the creeps give vision of you when they pass the jungle entrance near the inner turret.
Obviously if they don't go the safe way to lane they'll miss you, but in that case, your team could set up an easy first blood with good CV usage/some level 1 wards, which is way better than a twingol jack.
|
minis spawn at 1:40, you hit the one further from the enemy base once and then Q it, and then pull it approximately 1 champion's length away from their base where you'll be hidden. trundle takes them down in < 17 seconds iirc. your finish the last hit on the second golem as the creeps meet bot/top. knowing this, your teammates can wait in the triangle bush until you're done and come to your assistance/get an early kill. additionally, good players don't go through the jungle in the early game because the most brush is in the jungle
why don't you watch the replay i posted, where i not only successfully stole twin golems even despite being seen (i should have pulled them further), but then followed it up successfully with a level 2 gank against a 2.2k elo player which won the lane for my renekton
i promise you there is more to this game than theorycrafting  i have used this route since i created it a few months ago and like i said, you get fb or blown summoners 90% of the time. it works especially well against baddies but as you can see from my replay it works against players of all skill levels because it's unexpected. that's the beauty of trundle
|
Don't play Lee Sin but isn't he also a small clear jungler?
can do whatever you want, fully capable of 4 minute blue clear
|
Just like to say this guy is vastly underated. He is a very high tier jungler and he just a debuff machine if u build him tanky. Ppl need to give this guy a chance. Especailly with the upcoming lee sin nerfs  .
Mark my words he is hidden tier 1!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
