EPT[Champion] Trundle - Page 4
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
For example, against Nunu, Cho or someone who might want to take my jungle first, I like doing two routes - either a speed clear with someone guarding my wraiths or a fast lvl 6 route with me taking my own wraiths fast. Trundle is good in invasion too, so it's another route you might want to master with him. As far as masteries goes, you can do anything on him, but in my experience, if you can take 1/8/21 on a jungler you should, which is the case for Trundle. For maximum speed/safety in the jungle, I use 3 AD Marks, 6 ArPen Marks, Armor Seals and CDR/level or MR/level glyphs. The reason is that with +10AD and 10ArPen you kill lvl1 wraiths with 3 strikes instead of four, which adds some precious 5-7 seconds and less hitpoints to your jungling. Itemization I'm still getting used to it, altough Merc Treads Wriggles is definitely core. I love getting brutalizer on him, since it gives so good stats, but GB is lackluster. I'm leaning towards Phage, Aegis if your team doesn't have it, Tank item based on enemy comp if your team does have Aegis, Frozen Mallet. The game generally ends here, but next step is probably atma's or banshees. I might try Spirit Visage, since CDR is so good on trundle and you have a boost to your passive and wriggles healing. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
He does pretty decent sustained dps, but you REALLY need last whisper to do dmg vs anyone tanky. You do have the option to run in to fights that you KNOW you won't win and get away, where most melee DPS just have to sit there because they can't poke. He has decent initation with pillar because he can get away anyway. He's not quite as scary as WW at starting a fight, but he's MUCH less likely to die and MUCH more mobile so he can easily run after squishies. I'm wondering about itemization atm though, right now I'm going something like: Wriggles/merc treads core. Madreds blood razer could be done if you have a specific champ in mind to counter but its unexplored territory for me atm. Then I'm kind of lost. Phage is good, but do i go straight to frozen mallet, for the guaranteed slow and nice amount of hp, or go for trinity force for the sheen proc and damage. Guardian angel so you can run into fights 1st or 2nd and they can't focus you? Force of nature or banshees vs magic damage? Randuins is good always vs any physical damage as usual. Thornmail seems pretty smart especially with your passive if its some ranged carry like trist thats impossible to chase. Spirit visage possibly worth something? More Q's and W uptime, and very slightly helps your passive which is quite useful when you're often not the one to die first. I've been having super good results but I can't lock down core items atm, there doesn't seem to be anything doing atrociously either, though. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
rape their carry as cc and attacks and spells do nothing to u laugh as the rammus gets negative armor after dbc lol | ||
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
Not only you counterjungle him until he cries, you can ulti his DBC to transform the armordillo into pudding. | ||
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
Also, I'm trying this new build of Black Cleaver after Wriggles/Merc Treads. Still need more games doing this to have a safe sample size, but I'm liking so far, it really gives that extra oomph to him. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
triforce >>> bc though IMO. ghostblade is acceptable with a later bc, but if you're doing 1-stop shopping for damage output, triforce is your best bet, with ghostblade being a cheaper alternative. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
TL;DR - Don't buy Trinity Force on Trundle. There are better options. For the sake of calculations, we will take a 2000HP, 100 armor, 100 mr enemy. Stats that aren't impossible for the endgame. Also, I'll take into consideration that I will have 10 ArPen from runes, because that's what I use on trundle. Base stats @ 18: AD: 109 AS: 1 ArPen: 10 MPen: 0 +60% AS from W. Youmuus Ghostblade without active: +30AD +15% Critical Chance +20 ArPen Youmuus Ghostblade with active: +50% AS. Black Cleaver: +55 AD +30% AS 15/30/45 Armor Reduction Bloodthirster: +100 AD Madred's Bloodrazor: +30 AD +40AS +4% of target's HP per hit (magic damage) Infinity Edge: +75 AD +20% Critical Chance Criticals deal 250% Damage. Last Whisper: +40 AD +40% ArPen Attacks per Second: From W: +.402 (.6*.67) = Base Youmuus active: +.335 = 1,737 Black Cleaver &Trinity Force: +.201 = 1,603 Madred's: +.268 = 1,67 Damage per hit: Youmuus Ghostblade: (109 +30 +40 +.15*2*179) = 232 vs 2000 HP, 70 Armor = 137 damage per hit Black Cleaver: 109+40+55 = 204 vs 2000 HP, 65 armor on first, 50 on second, 35 on third and onwards = 124 on the first, 136 on the second, 152 onwards. BT: 109+40+100 = 249 vs 2000 HP, 90 armor = 132 per hit Madred's: 109+40+30 = 179 +4% of EHP vs 2000 HP, 90 armor, 100 MR = 95 physical and 20 magical per hit (115 per hit total) Infinity Edge: 109+40+75 +.2*2.5*224 = 336 vs 2000 HP, 90 armor = 177 per hit. Last Whisper: 109 +40+40 = 189 vs 2000 HP, 54 armor = 123 per hit Trinity Force without buff: 109+40+30 +.15*.2*179 = 232 vs 2000HP, 90 armor. = 123 per hit. Trinity Force with buff: 232 + 1.5*109 = 395 vs 2000 HP, 90 armor = 187 per hit. Attacks per Second * Damage per hit = Damage per Second. GB, without active = 1.402*137 = 192 DPS GB, on active = 1.737*137 = 237 DPS Black Cleaver, one stack = 1.603*124 = 198 DPS. Two Stacks = 218DPS. Onwards: 243 DPS Bloodthirster: 1.402*132 = 185 DPS Madred's: 1.67*115 = 192DPS Infinity Edge: 1.402*177 = 248 DPS Last Whisper: 1.402*123 = 172 DPS Trinity Force: 1.603*123 = 197DPS Assuming one buffed attack every 4 seconds (Q's cooldown without CDR) = 197 +187/4 = 243 DPS DPS per Gold: GB, without active: 2687/192 = 13,99 Gold per DPS GB, active: 2687/237 = 11,33 Gold per DPS Black Cleaver: One stack: 3065/198 = 15,47 Gold per DPS, Two Stacks: 14,05 Gold per DPS, Onwards: 12,61 Gold per DPS BT: 3200/185 = 17.29 gold per DPS Madred's: 3800/192 = 19.79 gold per DPS Infinity Edge: 4080/248 = 16,45 gold per DPS Last Whisper: 2290/172 = 13,31 gold per DPS Trinity Force = 4070/273 = 16,74 gold per DPS with buff, 4070/197 = 20,65 gold per DPS off-buff. I bolded the very best gold per damage ratio. Youmuus, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper are the best items one could get for Trundle if you're looking for damage. Trinity Force stays only in front of Black Cleaver when it's the first strike, and stays behind everything else when not buffed. Surprisingly, we have a new good option against tanky teams, as good as Youmuus: Last Whisper. The only item that beats Black Cleaver after the second strike is, without surprise, active Youmuus Ghostblade. I hope this spawns some new ideas on what to build for Trundle. I know I have some: 1. When you have another tank/aegis carrier in your team Go for Black Cleaver, then Guardian Angel/Banshee's/Randuins/SV depending on their comp. 2. When you don't have a complete tank in your team Go either Last Whisper or Youmuus Ghostblade/Brutalizer and build your Aegis, another tank item, finish that ghostblade, etc. Of course, I'm not really into cookie cutter builds. Build reactively is the best thing you can always do. EDIT: Redone calculations. I was using trinity force's bonus off TOTAL ad, where it only gives off from base AD. It was already... suboptimal, and now it is even more. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
On Triforce's utilities: I'd rather just build Phage and make it a Frozen Mallet later for the slows. Trinity Force makes you spend too much gold to have little buffs that aren't really that good compared to what you can have. You become a jack of all trades and master of none. And really, why would you want it for the slow if you already have the most frustating slow/cockblocker ever? Also, you get diminishing returns from the movespeed bonus once you already take into account W's bonus movespeed. Trinity Force is a waste of money on Trundle. Buy Black Cleaver/Youmuus instead. Black Cleaver if you need the DPS, Youmuus if you need to start tanking sooner. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On March 11 2011 21:54 necrosed wrote: Please keep in mind that those calculations for Trinity are overly optimistic. It assumes you can keep the buff every two seconds, which isn't true for trundle, unless you randomly spam your spells without thought, so please keep in mind that. On Triforce's utilities: I'd rather just build Phage and make it a Frozen Mallet later for the slows. Trinity Force makes you spend too much gold to have little buffs that aren't really that good compared to what you can have. You become a jack of all trades and master of none. And really, why would you want it for the slow if you already have the most frustating slow/cockblocker ever? Also, you get diminishing returns from the movespeed bonus once you already take into account W's bonus movespeed. Trinity Force is a waste of money on Trundle. Buy Black Cleaver/Youmuus instead. Black Cleaver if you need the DPS, Youmuus if you need to start tanking sooner. I was living under the impression that Trundle's Q is the most spammable shit in the game | ||
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
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baneling
Canada56 Posts
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
and you welcome baneling! =] | ||
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Zapperkhan
United States436 Posts
 Spikey burst DPS generally is the king for ganks and such. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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