|
Can't remember who talked about Trundle as an anti-diver: it's problematic because most of the diving AD casters/champs rely on burst to destroy you, or poke into finisher, rather than dps, which means unless you're sticking right beside your carries (intead of in the front to soak up damage) you won't be able to reach them and Q them fast enough before they output most of their damage once they decide to dive. It's not like Tryndamere's ranged Mocking Shout.
On January 28 2013 17:35 Rixxe wrote:
Suprised Triforce hasn't been mentioned much in regards to season3. It's still really insane on Trundle as he benefits from all aspects of the item. I guess the issue about getting enough gold to afford it is always the issue, but phage is pretty core, so you can always adapt the build if needed.
Wiggles, Zekes, Warmogs seem pretty much the best items for Trundle at the moment, but apart from Triforce, i'm not sure what damage items are good on Trundle, perhaps Black Cleaver?
In s2 I saw two build paths for Trundle (a bit extreme, but you can mix stuff):
Defensive: mallet/aegis/randuin's/SV (your team has enough damage, you're a lil' fucker that's sticking to their carries and forcing them to deal with you while being unkillable)
Offensive: triforce/ghostblade/GA (just ult their tankiest guy and dive the carry to zone him out of the fight. If you can't kill him, they probably failed to kill you too and your own carry had a field day, but you need someone on your team to play more defensive (and to be kinda fed) for this to work out, esp. timing-wise).
I'm pretty sure Ghostblade still isn't that bad on Trundle, though Black Cleaver probably makes more sense (armour reduction and AD serves him better than crit and more AS, also HP).
On January 29 2013 02:28 TheYango wrote:
He's sort of right, but that's inherent to design of Trundle's kit. He's always been good in longer engagements, and weak in short fights with high burst damage.
But League of Warmogs makes fights long right now.
League of Warmogs also means that the carries are harder (or at least take longer) to kill, so you're already somewhat low damage is even lower comparatively, which reduces the threat you pose. That's really what bothers me most: you reach a peak at levels 9/11 where your Q is maxed and they still haven't stacked too much AD so the debuff steals a higher %, and your ult is level 2 so you get a be a little tankier. But then your damage tends to drop and while you're very hard to kill, unless you managed to stack CDR you don't have the damage/utility that can justify running from say a Shen.
It has probably more to do with me, though, and managing to find an item build/core that allows for a smooth game flow: enough damage early on to pose a threat, while mixing up some CDR so that once you start to fall off you don't have to build it "from scratch" and feel a lot less useful in the meantime.
That said, I can think of a couple reasons why Trundle might be stronger in S3. Some not necessarily BECAUSE of S3, though.
Would you care to develop? I can see how the better CDR itemization, and general tankiness helps him (also Pillar super good against Olaf if you pick your fights well), but when you talk about "non-s3" I'm thinking about meta stuff like lane swaps and low econ games... his Q is obviously better in low econ environment, same with his W, and his pillar can help make dives easier, or shut down ganks/flanks, but apart from that he lacks clear speed to have the top map pressure/mobility that seems to be asked of junglers now, and he isn't a good 1v2 aner or anything himself.
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote:
Can't remember who talked about Trundle as an anti-diver: it's problematic because most of the diving AD casters/champs rely on burst to destroy you, or poke into finisher, rather than dps, which means unless you're sticking right beside your carries (intead of in the front to soak up damage) you won't be able to reach them and Q them fast enough before they output most of their damage once they decide to dive. It's not like Tryndamere's ranged Mocking Shout.
Unless the rest of your team flat-out fails, it's simply not possible for an anti-carry to solo-kill your carry through your team. The danger that Trundle poses to diving heroes is that Pillar limits the movement of the less mobile heroes on the team. Put simply, it force the enemy team to move with the least mobile member of their team because the ability for Pillar+Ulti to quickly isolate someone too far ahead/behind their team is very powerful.
He doesn't directly threaten divers, but the power of pillar is that it acts as a sort of invisible leash tying the diving hero back to their own team.
On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote:
In s2 I saw two build paths for Trundle (a bit extreme, but you can mix stuff):
Defensive: mallet/aegis/randuin's/SV (your team has enough damage, you're a lil' fucker that's sticking to their carries and forcing them to deal with you while being unkillable)
Offensive: triforce/ghostblade/GA (just ult their tankiest guy and dive the carry to zone him out of the fight. If you can't kill him, they probably failed to kill you too and your own carry had a field day, but you need someone on your team to play more defensive (and to be kinda fed) for this to work out, esp. timing-wise).
Neither of those were ultimately more successful than the Jatt/Lilballz route of defensive/supportive items (Shurelya/Aegis/Frozen/Randuin as core items).
On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote:
I'm pretty sure Ghostblade still isn't that bad on Trundle, though Black Cleaver probably makes more sense (armour reduction and AD serves him better than crit and more AS, also HP).
Ghostblade's problem is that it's not slot-efficient enough for a hero that wants a 6th one-off damage item. You're looking for a 3k+ gold finishing item.
On January 29 2013 05:28 Alaric wrote:
League of Warmogs also means that the carries are harder (or at least take longer) to kill, so you're already somewhat low damage is even lower comparatively, which reduces the threat you pose. That's really what bothers me most: you reach a peak at levels 9/11 where your Q is maxed and they still haven't stacked too much AD so the debuff steals a higher %, and your ult is level 2 so you get a be a little tankier. But then your damage tends to drop and while you're very hard to kill, unless you managed to stack CDR you don't have the damage/utility that can justify running from say a Shen.
It has probably more to do with me, though, and managing to find an item build/core that allows for a smooth game flow: enough damage early on to pose a threat, while mixing up some CDR so that once you start to fall off you don't have to build it "from scratch" and feel a lot less useful in the meantime.
You're not a direct offensive threat. Trundle can play that way if he's fed, but in general, that's generally not going to be that successful, due to your poor burst threat and lack of reliable disables.
Trundle is ultimately a supportive teamfighting hero. It's hard to really describe his exact role, but in a word, I'd say it's "annoying". Your kit doesn't suit you being a direct damage threat, and you don't have hard disables, but you have a bunch of annoying little shit that just makes teamfighting frustrating for the enemy. You force the enemy team to move around a lot, to switch targets, to be mindful of how they engage. These things are meaningless in a game where people insta-kill one another (part of why double AP high-burst damage team comps have always been Trundle's bane), but in a game where teamfights can be quite drawn out and involve a lot of movement, they are quite powerful.
You want to skirt the line between "the enemy wants to kill you" and "the enemy can't kill you". This is why team defensive/utility items are Trundle's bread and butter--they add to both of these factors. They add to your personal defensive capability, but the fact that you're contributing defensive power to your teammates increases your value as a kill target (moreso than damage would given Trundle's mediocre ability to apply an increase in offensive stats to practical use).
I actually think it's quite funny that they made him a troll because quite honestly being a troll suits Trundle's mode of teamfighting perfectly.
An interesting product of the current itemization is that there are a lot of diving junglers/top laners that rely a fair bit on their autoattacks when dealing damage, but are not actually building offensive items for it, and instead just building Warmog's/Sunfire. This is ultimately good for Trundle's teamfight usefulness as lower immediate damage output/more drawn out fights are Trundle's forte.
|
Ah, I wasn't clear enough in the first part (anti-diver stuff), it was to answer to somebody arguing that his Q is good against them (which I believe isn't true because of his ideal positioning, and melee range).
I agree with the general anti-diver sentiment though (in the game I mentioned last page I picked him against Kha+Noc, Draven+Rumble+Blitz because if Kha+Noc dive, a well-placed pillar can isolate them from the rest of their team).
There are a lot of champions/composition that can reduce the short-term effectiveness of the pillar though, for example Ahri, Renekton, CDR-built Xin, Kha'Zix with evolved E, and they're all quite popular. Of course it doesn't take his niche away from him, but as long as things like Cait's range, MF being picked for her long reach ultimate, etc. are popular in the meta on top of diving/mobile frontline I don't see Trundle being generally as good as he could be.
It's still better with the squishies becoming usually harder to kill though, than maybe stopping 2 members of the enemy team from entering but still having to deal with a 4v3 because you just lost your AD or squishy AP to their bursty initiation.
About the item builds I was talking s2 in general, Jatt's build wasn't there at the start and while being much better than those counterparts, it's also more team/coordination reliant because it tends to lead to less effective ganks in the early midgame, creating a timing where a more aggressive jungler like Lee Sin could put a lot of pressure on your lanes while your team-wide utility hasn't been abused yet and you can't fight him or out-pressure him. In soloQ you can't expect your lanes to be able to deal with this, or simply not start raging at the jungler for ganking less than the guy pouring himself in it.
(Picture Vi now, where starting Locket is obviously better for the team while not being bad on her, but you'll output far less pressure and be less dangerous in ganks than a Vi starting brutalizer.)
As for the teamfighting, I wouldn't know, not having played him enough s3. I know that in s2 with carries having less health I could not build too much damage and still get 2-3 Qs off them and have them forced to deal with me, my guess was that it's more ignorable now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's worse, perhaps just that his role shifts more to supporting (late game Pantheon/Lee) than threatening (Shen), as you said. I'll need to play him more.
Good thing, I've been playing too much Vi and I don't want to pay for it once she's nerfed, back to the troll!
|
After playing him more I do think he probs needs a buff to be considered a threat, even if i snowball the game is not won, i went 6-1-10 last night and had warmogs, hex drinker , merc treads and wriggles and the damage just was not there.. That said they could not ever kill me in team fights, your ult means you basically dont need to buy resistance and you can just buy HP which is super effective however he also lacks a burst..
he is good at creating good situations, catching a player here... blocking a player there.. but otherwise i think he is still not top tier
|
United States47024 Posts
The hero is such that he's never going to be a "top tier" pick unless he's drastically remade or overbuffed. In solo queue, his advantages are not the sort of direct advantages that make him easy to carry a game with--rather too many of his advantages are team-oriented advantages that a team has to play with in their minds.
In arranged play, the hero still has the glaring weakness that he's not suited to one-off immediate burst engages, since his strength shines in long drawn out engagements. It's very easy for him to be useless if your team doesn't pick around the fact that you don't have initiation/hard disables/aoe from your jungler, or if your opponents recognize what they need to pick against Trundle.
Compared to say, Xin Zhao, who has similar speed/sustain/itemization demands, Trundle's advantages are much less direct, and more obscure. Xin is more practical because he provides the basics of what people need in a jungler, and just has straight-up teamfighting power.
On January 30 2013 02:49 La1 wrote:
After playing him more I do think he probs needs a buff to be considered a threat, even if i snowball the game is not won, i went 6-1-10 last night and had warmogs, hex drinker , merc treads and wriggles and the damage just was not there.. That said they could not ever kill me in team fights, your ult means you basically dont need to buy resistance and you can just buy HP which is super effective however he also lacks a burst..
he is good at creating good situations, catching a player here... blocking a player there.. but otherwise i think he is still not top tier
That's the problem. Like it or not, you simply cannot itemize selfishly as Trundle. The hero's individual damage/killing potential is simply not good enough for you to play like that.
Trundle thrives on team usefulness. Everything you buy has to be useful to your team in some way, not just you. Locket, Aegis, Shurelya, Randuin, Zeke's--these are your bread-and-butter items.
|
i think machete -> warmogs -> ravenous hydra is all that trundle needs
gives him more of an aoe threat, makes him a deadly split pusher (3 auto resets!), and covers all his sustain and offensive wants
for the other items you can literally build whatever you want
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 03:34 gtrsrs wrote:
i think machete -> warmogs -> ravenous hydra is all that trundle needs
gives him more of an aoe threat, makes him a deadly split pusher (3 auto resets!), and covers all his sustain and offensive wants
for the other items you can literally build whatever you want
Hydra isn't an auto reset. It just plays its own effect that doesn't interact with the autoattack timer.
|
hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 03:45 gtrsrs wrote:
hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday
It being an autoattack reset doesn't even make sense because it's not an autoattack-based effect.
Autoattack->Hydra->Autoattack
When the Hydra effect is done, the autoattack CD is ready again.
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
It looks like an autoattack reset, I swear to god it's animation is the champion attacking the ground, but yeah, it's not an autoattack. It doesnt target anything, it doesn't apply on-hit effects and it does not damage towers, it's not autoattack. It's as good as one though :3
|
On January 30 2013 03:09 TheYango wrote:
The hero is such that he's never going to be a "top tier" pick unless he's drastically remade or overbuffed. In solo queue, his advantages are not the sort of direct advantages that make him easy to carry a game with--rather too many of his advantages are team-oriented advantages that a team has to play with in their minds.
It's so discouraging when it's obvious that your team doesn't know, and when you explain to them doesn't want to, play accordingly to you. He's so much team reliant it's like building a card castle hoping your teammates won't step on it without even realizing it.
Need to get some people to play arranged teams with, so we can have some real communication going on. :<
|
On January 30 2013 03:45 gtrsrs wrote:
hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday
verified and disproven at the same time
it's an auto attack reset, but not when attacking towers. but it's 100% an AA reset on champs and creeps. on towers you just get the animation
the same goes for tiamat
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:00 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 03:45 gtrsrs wrote:
hydra is definitely an auto reset
actually, i hate saying things like that without testing them. so i'm gonna go play a game now and test. but it was working like an auto reset yesterday verified and disproven at the same time it's an auto attack reset, but not when attacking towers. but it's 100% an AA reset on champs and creeps. on towers you just get the animation the same goes for tiamat
The Hydra active isn't an autoattack. There will be an autoattack immediately after because Hydra active is performed WHILE the autoattack cooldown happens.
For Hydra to be an autoattack reset in the way you describe, the behavior would have to be:
Autoattack->Crescent+Autoattack (autoattack happens during Crescent)->Autoattack
Autoattack->Crescent->Autoattack is normal behaviour because Crescent is just using the post-attack time of the autoattack.
|
but i do damage during the crescent timing
so it's either an AA reset or does spell/item damage that isn't listed
easiest way for me to test it was to attack creeps
took 4 hits to kill the creep i was focusing; OR 3 hits + the crescent active, which was also faster
if that's not an auto reset then i don't know what is
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:09 gtrsrs wrote:
but i do damage during the crescent timing
so it's either an AA reset or does spell/item damage that isn't listed
The 3rd possibility is that Crescent has an animation, but isn't actually supposed to interrupt your attacks (similar to Hecarim Q), so you get a strange case where you're autoattacking while the Crescent animation plays.
Someone told me this is how it actually works, but I never got to verify carefully.
|
go check it then -_-
another way you can test is to get a creep down to an HP level where another auto would kill it, then immediately press your crescent active. the creep will die instantly and you'll get the gold, without waiting for your full auto timer
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:14 gtrsrs wrote:
go check it then -_-
another way you can test is to get a creep down to an HP level where another auto would kill it, then immediately press your crescent active. the creep will die instantly and you'll get the gold, without waiting for your full auto timer
That's the crescent active killing it though. Crescent isn't autoattack based, so obviously it doesn't wait for your auto timer.
Crescent is just an aoe nuke with an AD ratio.
|
an AD ratio of 1
aka
an auto attack
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 05:20 gtrsrs wrote:
an AD ratio of 1
aka
an auto attack
Not all spells with AD ratios of 1 are autoattacks. It also doesn't proc on-hit effects/etc.
It's just a normal AoE nuke. It's not an autoattack, and doesn't use the autoattack timer, just like I said.
|
I have updated my guide to blocking paths with pillar, just in time for the troll's free week. It's too bad his q is still bugged, hopefully it will be fixed soon. It's pretty apparent right now that your damage is incredibly low in any sort of fight.
Hydra is way too expensive for Trundle to get out of the jungle, and skipping madred's/wriggles completely neuters your ability to solo drag at any point from level 6 onwards, which I think is one of Trundle's biggest strengths. I guess it would be reasonable if your gameplan was for Trundle to split push endlessly, but there are other champs who fit that role better.
How quickly do people get the furor enchantment on him? I'm always stuck debating getting that or components for a big defensive item like warmogs/glacial.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
