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101toss
3232 Posts
With 21 utility you can + get a biscuit, however I don't see myself running 21 utility outside of lanes I can be greedy against, like singed. Dring is essentially a mana potion anyways that amplifies your heal on nom. You could call it a greedy opening, but I think it's fine. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
Yeah, I'll explain the point I was trying to make more clearly below. bottle = 225g (100hp, 40mp, x3) for each back mana potion = 35g (100mp) consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp So theoretically, a bottle gives 3(100)+2(125/180/235) = 300+(250/360/470) = 550-770hp 2 mana potions (70g) gives 3(125/180/235) = 375-705hp 3 mana potions (105g) gives 5(125/180/235) = 625-1175hp I think the conclusion to be had here is that 3 mana potions give more hp than bottle, while costing about half the price. I doubt that you'll be getting more than 6 mana potions in two backs, or before you get chalice or some other mana item (after which mana is more or less irrelevant). Also, starting with just a few mana potions gives you the option of starting with a better item early game, allowing for better lane control early on. Nunu has never been short on sustain, and I don't think there's any reason to get bottle on him. Edit: this argument is just about how bottle is bad on Nunu, I'm not sure about optimal item right now -- I'd be interested in doing some math behind different openings soon. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On December 06 2012 06:57 mr_tolkien wrote: Excuse my French but HOLY FUCK. Iceborn Gauntlet is insanely retarded on Nunu :o It's pretty damn expensive and would probably replace FH in the build, not to mention in team fights you won't be able to get off too many sheen procs. I'll look into it though, I'm a fan of more slows and stronger yeti fists. When it comes to the bottle debate, health potions aren't necessary except for those awkward moments when you are low and can't safely nom. Generally though, potions are inefficient on Nunu given proper management, and while mana pots are generally better than health pots, a dring can replace mana pots at level 1. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On December 06 2012 07:06 101toss wrote: It's pretty damn expensive and would probably replace FH in the build, not to mention in team fights you won't be able to get off too many sheen procs. I'll look into it though, I'm a fan of more slows and stronger yeti fists. When it comes to the bottle debate, health potions aren't necessary except for those awkward moments when you are low and can't safely nom. Generally though, potions are inefficient on Nunu given proper management, and while mana pots are generally better than health pots, a dring can replace mana pots at level 1. Yeah instead of FH. I've been running Graal -> Gauntlet as my core. Then it's either Banner of command/Ohmwrecker if I want to finish the game with strong pushing or the more standard "asshole nunu" with a revolver and more resists. Serisouly, gauntlet is friggin stupid on Nunu. Nobody can touch your backlane anymore, you have more mana, ap, and armor, and you deal a very strong burst to squishies... He just wrecks any melee-reliant team. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 06 2012 07:04 emperorchampion wrote: Yeah, I'll explain the point I was trying to make more clearly below. bottle = 225g (100hp, 40mp, x3) for each back mana potion = 35g (100mp) consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp So theoretically, a bottle gives 3(100)+2(125/180/235) = 300+(250/360/470) = 550-770hp 2 mana potions (70g) gives 3(125/180/235) = 375-705hp 3 mana potions (105g) gives 5(125/180/235) = 625-1175hp I think the conclusion to be had here is that 3 mana potions give more hp than bottle, while costing about half the price. I doubt that you'll be getting more than 6 mana potions in two backs, or before you get chalice or some other mana item (after which mana is more or less irrelevant). Also, starting with just a few mana potions gives you the option of starting with a better item early game, allowing for better lane control early on. Nunu has never been short on sustain, and I don't think there's any reason to get bottle on him. Edit: this argument is just about how bottle is bad on Nunu, I'm not sure about optimal item right now -- I'd be interested in doing some math behind different openings soon. Interesting. My point, in general was that I think I might still go boots + mana pots opening, even though boots kinda suck, because I feel dumb with dring openings. | ||
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
On December 06 2012 08:36 cLutZ wrote: Interesting. My point, in general was that I think I might still go boots + mana pots opening, even though boots kinda suck, because I feel dumb with dring openings. I just tried some games with dring, it seems really strong. Let's take a look at boots/2 mana pot/health pot vs dring. + Show Spoiler [ Analysis] + Items: dring: +0.6mp/s, 15ap, 80hp, 5mp/kill mana pot: 100mp boots: ehanced movement health pot: 150hp Once again, Consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp Based on sustain, potions: 3(125/180/235) + 150 = 525-855hp So approximately four consumes will equal that, or 240mp worth. Lets say you kill minions at the conservative linear rate of 4minions/min, 4*5mp / 60s = 0.33mp/s Our regen rate is now: 240mp / (0.6+0.33)mp/s =~ 240s =~ 4min. Conclusion: Conservatively, the new dring equals the sustain of 2mpot+hpot in ~4min. Boots aren't especially useful (although they may be necessary in certain lanes?), however the potions are, in general, more useful regeneration than the dring. As an example, after a drawn out engagement against a Nidalee we were both really low, I had lots of mana left, but couldn't go for a consume because she could burst me down. This is a situation where you would really benefit from a health pot. Also, in a crunch mana pots are really useful if you get low on mana (don't have to slowly wait for regen). However, the dring gives an extra 80hp, which is very effective on Nunu because you will often be full health because of consume. In addition the extra AP adds to both consume (+15hp/consume) and to snowball damage. For a lot of other champ to stay even in power they need to start with a dorans item, thereby sacrificing sustain from potions. Whereas Nunu actually gains sustain from starting with a dring, and is stronger as well. So either way your presence should be increased against most champions. So really the argument is down to whether or not you need the regen in a crunch. If you don't find yourself in a situation where you absolutely need potions then in my opinion the dring is a better choice. Also, armed with the knowledge that a dring gives better sustain I argue that you should be able to avoid such scenarios in the first place (ie. you can be a lot less conservative with your consumes now -- a mistake I made laning against the Nidalee). Anyways, I think dring is a really strong start on Nunu atm. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On December 06 2012 08:36 cLutZ wrote: Interesting. My point, in general was that I think I might still go boots + mana pots opening, even though boots kinda suck, because I feel dumb with dring openings. Doran openings are dumb when everyone has +50ms boots, including junglers, and potions while playing a champ with 0 built in sustain Now that boots are only +25 and junglers are generally pigeonholed into buying the machete, dring is generally safe since you actually have retarded sustain that synergizes well with the doran stats. ^also, I read your post, and you don't really like to have drawn out engagements unless you are sure you can bait out their cc and escape and then follow up with an ult. The way the yeti plays is to just wear them down because you have retarded sustain and a disengaging tool. Of course this doesn't mean to not throw in yeti fists here and there, but pretty often you should try to top off your health. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
On December 06 2012 11:56 cLutZ wrote: I was just talking speculatively mostly. I've been playing mostly Olaf both jungle and top until i get the hang of him. Nunu is just a pocket pick vs. Jax and some others that I want to have ready. Or you could play nunu against everyone that isn't riven, and if it's riven, you switch to support/jungle | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
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OnceKing
United States939 Posts
On December 06 2012 15:21 jaybrundage wrote: How does nunu do vs jax and irlelia? Nunu stomps Jax really hard and performs well against Irelia though the latter lane can sustain better against you -- the Irelia lane is about outplaying each other's Es | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 06 2012 16:20 OnceKing wrote: Nunu stomps Jax really hard and performs well against Irelia though the latter lane can sustain better against you -- the Irelia lane is about outplaying each other's Es Also baiting Irelia Q when she can't stun you for a full channel ult. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On December 06 2012 15:30 Craton wrote: Nunu jungle right now can full clear and only use 1-2 HP pots, for those who were wondering. If you take janky masteries and runes you can do it with a dring start, nothing else, and without smite (this means 9/0/21 focusing on ap, vamp quints and cdr blues). Not very practical, but maybe something could be done with it. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On December 07 2012 05:01 101toss wrote: If you take janky masteries and runes you can do it with a dring start, nothing else, and without smite (this means 9/0/21 focusing on ap, vamp quints and cdr blues). Not very practical, but maybe something could be done with it. Could be interesting, but what would you take instead? Laner will probably have Ignite, you don't need Exhaust with Snowball, I guess you could take Teleport for lulganks. But your team would still be short a Smite for Baron/Dragon/buff control. On December 07 2012 05:09 sylverfyre wrote: So, smash was loving Rageblade on Nunu before. Now it gets 10% spell vamp when you're below half... giving you a silly amount of extra health from Nom. Win? Rageblade is kind of dumb now. You like, can't die if you go under 50%. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On December 07 2012 05:47 Requizen wrote: Could be interesting, but what would you take instead? Laner will probably have Ignite, you don't need Exhaust with Snowball, I guess you could take Teleport for lulganks. But your team would still be short a Smite for Baron/Dragon/buff control. Rageblade is kind of dumb now. You like, can't die if you go under 50%. The jungling comment was purely speculation. While nunu can technically play without smite (that nom is 900 damage) at rank 5, still safer to have smite for a massive buffer. Although, at 1200- elo, not using smite could be good  Only problem I feel with rageblade rush (this applied to the old build as well) was that if you didn't build up enough resists/health, you would just blow up even with all the stats. Also the new rageblade is a bit more pricey, so you're going to be stuck with a pickaxe for a bit longer. Still has retarded cost-efficiency though, combined with me leaning towards 21 offense now. On a side note, hybrid runes buffed (in terms of slot efficiency, now ~70% of the main runes instead of ~66%)  edit: ok, new rageblade is retarded, almost as retarded as new spirit visage | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
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