EDIT: It's been a really long time since I wrote the first guide. It was pretty bad and outdated so I decided just to make a new one. If you want to check out the old one, just click the spoiler tag. Nunu: The Yeti Rider
Nunu should only be played as a jungler, eventually transitioning into a support/tank role in the late game. He's definitely one of the best overall junglers with great speed, safety, ganks, and counter jungling capabilities. He's a little useless in the late game but he can definitely punish bad positioning and team play with his ult. The Build:
Runes: Flat HP Quints Armor Pen. Reds Armor Yellows mr/lvl Blues
Nunu is not very reliant on runes, so I go for a fairly standard tanky page. It helps clear the jungle at full life for ganks and I just like to be tanky in general.
Masteries: There are 3 choices you can go here.
1. Defensive Heavy 1/21/8 This is my preferred route, just because I like to be very tanky. The downside is that you lose the monster buff duration increase and your smite recharges a lot slower.
2. Utility Heavy 1/8/21 This is a completely acceptable route. You give up a little bit of tankiness to be a much more efficient jungler.
3. Defensive/Utility Mix 1/16/13 This gives you access to Veteran's Scars and monster buff duration increase. A good balance between the other two.
Your choice really depends on your play style and preferences. Do you want to be a better jungler or a better tank?
Summoner Spells: Ghost and Smite. Don't be a noob and grab flash because flash ult never works.
Skill Order: I still stand by my QWE -> R > E > W > Q. Most people max w first, but I really do believe that 50 or so extra damage is worth the 10% movement speed. Max w first if you really want to.
I pretty much start every game this way. You won't use all 5 pots in your first run, but it will still be useful in subsequent clears or you can always sell them when you need to finish an item. I get a ward if I want to try to steal their red or blue or I'm afraid of getting stolen myself.
2. Heart of Gold + Boots
Also super standard, not much to comment besides the fact that HoG is obviously amazing.
3. Banshee's Veil or Rod of Ages
The standard is just to rush the banshee's veil. I go for a Rod of Ages (or even two) if I get a lot of successful ganks. People say AP on nunu is worthless because you only have one consistent offensive spell, but you do have amazing ratios and RoA makes you pretty damn tanky.
4. Tank, tank, tank, tank. Depending on the enemy team comp and whoever is dominating, get the appropriate items. Finish your Randuin's or Force of Nature or whatever makes sense. Gameplay
Early Game: Jungling with nunu is super flexible since he basically can do whatever he wants with his skill set. I'll just outline a few basic strategies that I use frequently.
1. Safe and Easy Blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems -> level 4 gank. Really easy route that sets you up nicely for a full life gank with level 2 ice ball. If no lanes are gankable sometimes I make a feeble attempt at someone to try to bait a summoner's spell or get a little damage on the enemy to help out. Then I just make my way over to my wolves when they respawn and then get my wraiths again.
Throw in a wraith jack in the beginning if you are feeling saucy.
2. Red steal -> golem jack -> level 2 gank. Don't do this unless your team has CV and you can see them all at their blue. Even then it's risky because it gets foiled if they take the long route to get to lane. But it does set-up a pretty devastating gank with ice ball and red buff from behind that's very difficult to see coming when it works.
Mid Game: Here it's mostly about dragon control, ganking, and covering lanes. Remember always get a pink ward for dragon and go for it if bot pushes to the tower or gets a kill. If a solo dies at a lane, it's your job to run up there and cover it. Nothing is worse than losing an early tower because then your jungle is extremely vulnerable. Late Game: Late game is simple. Permahaste your carry, permaslow the most useful person you can reach on the other team. When things get crazy run in the middle and push R.
Nunu: The Yeti Rider Preface Nunu is known as one of the fastest junglers and has a pretty strong level 4 gank. Though he functions very well in lane, he should be exclusively used as a jungler because he scales quite poorly in the late game. This guide assumes you are an experienced player and you have a general sense of what Nunu is capable of. The Build Runes: Arm Pen Reds and Quints, Dodge Yellows, Mres/Lvl Blues You can change around the runes to however you like since Nunu is not very dependent on runes. I don't like movement speed or aspd runes because my jungling speed is mainly dependent on how fast Q comes back. Mana is not an issue with Nunu's passive and you should have blue most of the time. I can see the argument for CDR yellow and blues or flat armor yellows if you want them.
Masteries: 1/8/21 Standard jungling setup. I get SoS and Awareness.
Summoner Spells: Ghost and Smite Smite is non-negotiable. Flash can be used if you like flash ult shenanigans. I use exhaust if they have a bunch of ranged carries or melee dps types and no one wants to pick exhaust.
Skilling Order: QWEE -> R -> E -> W -> Q 1 point in q and w are enough to jungle. Maxing e is critical as it is your main ganking tool.
Item Build: Opening - Cloth Armor + 5 pots There are a lot of variations of the opening depending on your play style and the enemy team. Personally I like this because it keeps me at full life for when I'm ready to gank. I can't fault you for getting a ward but long sword is definitely the wrong opening. It doesn't make you jungle faster and your life gets precariously low.
1st Return: Lvl 1 Boots + Ward If you are successful with a gank you can get a Madred's Razor.
2nd Return: Wriggle's Lantern (or whatever parts you can afford)
After this point, the build diverges depending on the enemy team comp and your team comp. Basically if your team is lacking tankiness you need to build tanky. If your team needs AP damage, build some caster items. The most common item I get at this point is Rod of Ages. Good tank items in order of preference are Banshee's Veil, Sunfire Cape, Force of Nature, and Randuin's Omen. Good caster items in order of preference are Abyssal Scepter, Zhonya's, and Lich's Bane. Remember to use your head, look at the opposing team's damage sources, look at what your team is lacking, and base your items on that.
A standard tank build against a diverse team with good CC might look something like this: Cloth Armor + 5 Pots Lvl 1 Boots + Wards Wriggle's Lantern Rod of Ages + Lvl 2 Boots Banshee's Veil Sunfire Cape Force of Nature Early Game My standard jungling route is Blue -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Red -> Golems -> Gank. You can fool around with the route by going into the enemy jungle or getting an early red for a level 2 gank or something, but I feel like level 4 is your best shot of getting a gank.
The First Gank: After you grab the golem, you have to look at what lanes are being pushed, the health of the champions, and finally the summoner spells of who you can gank. If both lanes are being pushed or your teammates are at low life, just b or offer to cover the lane. If you decide that it is a good opportunity to gank, it's not a difficult process. Type ahead of time that you are going to gank, pop ghost, slow with E, auto attack, and E again whenever it is ready. If it works, great, if not, at least you will force them to b early. One thing to notice is that if they have flash you should just run up and auto attack until they flash or else they can dodge your ice ball and get away.
After you get your second round of items, get a ward to cover dragon. Without double buff or Wriggle's Lantern, you are too weak to solo dragon. Mid Game At this point just jungle whatever respawns and cover lanes. When I get level 6 I look to gank again. When I get a second round of buffs I look to dragon if it seems like a good time or just gank again. You should be mostly roaming around at the map looking for good opportunities at this time.
Third round of buffs should go to the rest of your team. Late Game At this point you are basically a support/tank champ. You don't have big damage outside of your ult so your job is to make sure your carry is permanently W'd. When a team fight occurs your job in to get in the center and push R. Use E on their squishies and keep spamming W on whoever needs it.
Closing As with any jungler, a guide can provide very little for becoming good at jungling besides a starting point. Jungling is a skill that takes a lot of practice to develop your own style and the required instincts. There are many other guides on TL that talk about jungling so look into those if you want to get a lot better at this aspect of the game. + Show Spoiler +
1) Why Armor Pen reds over MPen? The vast majority of your damage seems like it should come from your spells.
2) A note is probably worth making about Teleport as a summoner spell option, since Nunu's Q+Smite lets you buff-steal/dragon-steal very effectively.
3) I generally skill QEEW, with the same priority as you afterwards. It doesn't feel like leveling W before E would result in faster jungling speed (particularly if you start at Blue and can spam E on cooldown), though I'll admit I haven't tested this so I'm not actually sure.
4) I dislike Wriggles on tanky junglers for whom a large component of their damage comes from their spells, and for whom the AD/Lifesteal components of Wriggles don't really go anywhere. IMO 1 or more Hearts of Gold are a much more solid way to go into the midgame (particularly since Randuin's Omen is a nice way to supplement Nunu's skillset). This could be a holdover from my playing too much Amumu, though.
With QWQE you can solo dragon at level 4 and be done before most jungles come to ward it - this is really only viable at lower ELOs or against people who don't realize nunu can do this, though, so I'd suggest the skill/route listed above in most cases.
As far as the items go, I usually don't bother with Wriggles or even madred's razor - I find that the combination of Q/W/E lets him jungle quickly and healthily enough without those items. Instead I just work on RoA or Banshee's that much sooner.
I'm not sure what I would consider ideal runes to be on Nunu, but I think 25 arpen is overkill and in general I prefer armor to dodge seals. Running flat armor quints/yellows would probably allow you to get away with cloth+ward (or maybe even D. ring+pot) and still be at high health after clearing the creeps.
But yeah, Nunu is cool and imo underplayed. Ice ball is a hilarious permaslow and blood boiled carries are ridiculous late game.
Edit: got ninja'd, but I definitely agree that if you start with cloth upgrading it to HoG is a good choice.
On December 03 2010 14:21 TheYango wrote: A couple things:
1) Why Armor Pen reds over MPen? The vast majority of your damage seems like it should come from your spells.
2) A note is probably worth making about Teleport as a summoner spell option, since Nunu's Q+Smite lets you buff-steal/dragon-steal very effectively.
3) I generally skill QEEW, with the same priority as you afterwards. It doesn't feel like leveling W before E would result in faster jungling speed (particularly if you start at Blue and can spam E on cooldown), though I'll admit I haven't tested this so I'm not actually sure.
4) I dislike Wriggles on tanky junglers for whom a large component of their damage comes from their spells, and for whom the AD/Lifesteal components of Wriggles don't really go anywhere. IMO 1 or more Hearts of Gold are a much more solid way to go into the midgame (particularly since Randuin's Omen is a nice way to supplement Nunu's skillset). This could be a holdover from my playing too much Amumu, though.
ppl level bloodboil over iceball kus iceball is useless except for the slow, so 1 lvl is all u need. Also in apen vs mpen, i would actually opt for aspeed
i do agree on ur 4th point tho, wriggles is useless on nunu, either rush that bveil or get randuins
edit: oh just realized that op maxes iceball first too. w/e. I like maxing bloodboil first, since i dont get any ap on nunu, i build him pretty much straight tank.
I also prefer getting E at level 2 and 3 before W because I feel like it makes more of a difference in your jungling speed. Unlike OP, I do have mana problems on Nunu sometimes, because I'm giving up blue buff to our caster on at least the third spawn (and sometimes the second). This might just be a personal problem thought, I tend to spam spells more than I should.
EDIT: Now that I read the OP more in-depth, I see he mentions giving up buffs on third spawn. I guess it is just a personal issue to be fixed, then.
1) I don't like mpen because it gets a lot tougher taking down blue and red without the arpen but I do like the armor quints and yellow idea. 2) Ice ball vs. blood boil: The extra damage and the very slight extra cdr really does help in getting that first gank and subsequent ganks. The gains you get from leveling either is really shitty, but I still think E is the way to go. I will probably do some practice runs timing QEEW vs QWEE and seeing how it the mana, speed, and life differs. 3) Wriggles: Definitely valid points on the wriggle's lantern. It just makes getting dragon ez mode and of course free wards!!!!! I'll experiment getting HoG against ad teams and straight up rushing banshee's against most other teams.
On December 03 2010 15:30 Jaksiel wrote: I also prefer getting E at level 2 and 3 before W because I feel like it makes more of a difference in your jungling speed. Unlike OP, I do have mana problems on Nunu sometimes, because I'm giving up blue buff to our caster on at least the third spawn (and sometimes the second). This might just be a personal problem thought, I tend to spam spells more than I should.
EDIT: Now that I read the OP more in-depth, I see he mentions giving up buffs on third spawn. I guess it is just a personal issue to be fixed, then.
I'm the same with Nunu. I spam my skills way more than I need to, just to try and hurry up my jungling, when really, it can slow it down sometimes, or leave you with no mana to gank.
This is probably a small thing that you probably already knew about, but when Nunu's passive is up in the jungle, the the best spell to consume it is his E--even from rank 1, E costs more than his other spells, and the other 2 don't scale up in cost, while E does.
I can actually see barbsq's point in running aspd marks--it increases your physical damage dealt early on, while at the same time also reducing your mana consumption by triggering your passive more often.
Not leveling E first is just dumb. All nunu has is his earlygame, especially if build tanky. You need the extra damage and you need the slow. E is just as good as malph's Q, except that it's on a shorter cooldown.
Leveling Q past the first point is useless and in most cases dumb, nunu is a ridiculously good ganker who doesn't need either of his buffs after the first run. If your mid is hardcountered (trist vs mf or something like that) you can even give them your first lizard and be perfectly fine. Pumping Q only gives you a small heal that you can only use when in melee range of a creep, which since you are jungling, and often counterjungling won't always be possible. Q is your tool to eat 1 tower hit when diving, and shouldn't really be used otherwise.
Q also ensures that your buffs/dragon/baron will never be stolen, and 500 dmg is just as good as 900 since no other jungler has that kind of burst.
E owns, your passive owns and your ult is the best single-target slow in the game. And yes, I mean single target: since you attack in melee range and move way faster than anything you'll be hitting your basic combo is W the laner (if you still have 5ish secs CD just gank already), E your target, go either on top of him or right past him and ult to zone his shit and complete the kill.
In teamfights you will always be cancelling your ult so that you hit everyone and are free from the channelling.
I used to be a lv2 W enthusiast aswell, but then I saw a few streams and I realized that in all situations E is better: -If everything is fine, you jungle faster. -If you get counterjungled, E, ping (ghost) and kill. -If your red gets warded you would think that you make a much better use of the MS from W, but in reality your opponents will see you passing by red and most likely attempt to gank you at golems, which again brings us to point 2.
As for runes/items I like tankier builds, because your strongest time of the game is when your opponents don't have merc treads yet, and you get damage from leveling your skills. After lv10, when your main skill is already lv5 your damage will keep falling and falling due to your opponents itemizing against you, and since you don't need the buffs in the first place a tankier build will allow you to turn into a solid support character. My nunu runepage is as follows: mpen reds armor yellows mres/18 blues 1 HP/2 MS quints (or 2 hp/1 ms, it really depends on playstyle)
Aspd yellows are good aswell since you have a slow and a built-in AS buff which allows you to trigger your passive while chasing people down, that also depends on personal preference. Mpen reds are in line with my exploit-the-earlygame playstyle.
As for items, You are blessed in that you don't need mana regen, ever. BEST PASSIVE IN THE GAME. (I can't really stress this enough). You don't really need to go to base either since you have free mana, don't take too much damage and have a heal.
So basically I really have 2 build openings i'll alternate depending on how I predict the game is going to be: -Doran's Shield opening
-Cloth Armor opening
Cloth armor obviously means fast HoG. HoG is awesome, and randuin is like your passive but it stays on. Awesome. What this means is also that you will have regular intervals when you need to b. You can't hold a lane that got ganked when you have that sweet 675g. Yes, you could save up for a ward and maybe even for boots, but 800g is the maximum you can afford to b with. HoG=money, and since you will only be getting one of those and you'll be rushing a randuin's you want to get that cash flowing as fast as possible. Recommended especially vs WW, since your first recall time will be slightly before his and he can attempt a quick dragon. The problem is that your first run does not leave you with enough money for a ward, so unless you got lucky somehow (or are running gold/10 quints, I hear they are viable on nunu) you need to loiter around mid or bot until you can afford a ward aswell. If you really can't afford to snatch money from those lanes you can just b and buy boots+ward, since LOLMS characters such as MS panth and boots/MS vlad aren't as popular anymore. Your first ganks will be ridiculously strong, especially if you are using AS reds.
The doran's shield opening is my favorite. It is the proest opening there is right now since it is the most flexible. Every little bit of regen is really good right now, especially since in most games you'll be building a spirit visage. Doran's shield doesn't tie you to building a specific item, and it is my build of choice whenever I know I won't need a fast HoG. Especially if they have casters, dorans shield>mercs>negatron(x2) will make you the most solid tank even against a farmed veigar or a fed ryze.
Masteries-wise I go 1/14/15 because I like to be resilient against minions and because cdr only affects your ult (blood boil already has 100% uptime and bluebuff/randuins are enough to keep E applied on a target with mercs).
I'm not a fan of soloing dragon, you are good at ganking so you better go find them noobies and then dragon freely.
On December 14 2010 11:25 Misder wrote: Anyone else go boots+hp pot+ ward first? Take smite and tp?
I've tried ward + boots + pot nunu (I take flash smite for flash ult shenanigans, and to escape over the back of dragon if i get caught trying to sneak it at lvl 4). It's great fun... if you're quick enough on the buy you can get to enemy blue and ward it and get out... head back to your wraiths consume big one and kill another and then make it back to their blue buff in time for the smite + consume steal. Normally I just pussy out and go cloth + 5pot -> lvl gank / dragon.
I have had the tactic go horribly wrong... but it's a hell of a laugh when you sucessfully run up right next to the enemy jungler, ignore him and steal his blue then run off.
I know TreeEskimo had some great recordings of him running the strat... but they got deleted from his channel. I know there are a few games on Roku's channel where they double q'd and ran that strat... but the perspective is from roku's, not tree's.
On December 16 2010 16:32 TheYango wrote: Why would you ever cloth 5pot as Nunu? You only need 1 for Golem and 1 pre-gank. Save the other 105 gold or get a ward.
On December 16 2010 16:32 TheYango wrote: Why would you ever cloth 5pot as Nunu? You only need 1 for Golem and 1 pre-gank. Save the other 105 gold or get a ward.
To get a lvl 4 dragon (+gank).
They you need 1, maybe 2 extra. Still doesn't warrant the whole 5.
Ya know... i'm quite content to splurge on the 5th pot. It's one of those things that is never not useful. When i go B i don't have any issues with my buy that 35 gold would change.
madred > HoG(s) > negatron (if you need mr) > BR > tank
gogogo
better damage than stacking godforsaken ap items. solos dragon/buffs ez. farms harder, kills carries better (hey wait, what), and you still get to tank well. not unkillable well, but you're not a goddam initiator so why the hell do you need that much tank.
Not building BV on Nunu just seems less than ideal... that item is great on him. Unless your team has a Morg... but even then it's probably not the best idea to count her shielding you each time you wanna pop your ult.
I haven't tried building madreds on Nunu, he still jungles pretty quickly. TreeEskimo was streaming today so I asked him about his Nunu build he runs:
TreeEskimo's Jungle Nunu.
Runes: HP Quints, AS reds, MP5/lvl yellows and blues. Masteries: 9/21/0 (spell pen from offense, SoS and all the usual stuff from defense Skill order: QW then Q, or if you're ganking at 3 take E, otherwise leave it until 4. so a lvl 4 gank would be QWQEERE (then either W or Q depending on your team comp - take W if your carries can make use of the extra attack speed). From then on R>E> W and Q last depending on whether healing/ jungling speed or extra carry damage is required. Summoner spells: Smite (no brainer here) / Flash or Ghost. Flash can be great for getting in position with your ult, Ghost is always a useful spell. Could take teleport or exhaust if needed. Initial buy: Boots + ward + pot Jungling route: Get out of base ASAP, and head over to ward their blue. Then come back to your wraiths. You'll be aiming to steal their golem with consume + smite (1000 dmg > 540 dmg). While you're waiting for their blue to spawn you've got time to consume your big wraith, and auto attack a smaller one. With the boots you should have the movespeed to run in, smite + consume and then run off to your stone golems. From here on, jungle as normal: stonegolems -> finish wraiths -> wolves -> your own blue (either take it for yourself or give it away, but don't leave it up for the enemy jungler to steal).
This is a risky strategy... take note that it will not always work, sometimes they'll be guarding their blue too heavily for you to steal it and get out alive. If this is the case, then make sure to grab your 2nd level of Q at lvl 3 to help you catch up in your jungle.
Alternatively you can go another opening if you aren't man enough for the blue steal (i'll admit, I often wuss out). But when you do pull it off it sets their jungler WAY behind and only hurts your jungling slightly (assuming you don't get killed at blue).
Credit for this build goes to TreeEskimo, I didn't come up with it.
Given the specific strategy described, I think it is really 9/21/0. Nunu isn't as reliant as buffs as other jungles. I am kinda interested to see how it transitions when bluesteal fails.
From looking at Tree's streams, yeah, it really is 9/21/0, and he doesn't seem to be too behind in comparison to the other jungler's levels either for the most part. He seems to go into farm mode when bluesteal fails, and for the most part lane control is yielded to the other jungler for a while
90% sure it was 9/21/0 because I remember being surprised by the setup. One of his somewhat recent vods has a Nunu game, so I'll double check that sometime soonish (not right now).
If the bluesteal fails he normally goes to golems... but the thing is (I specifically asked him bout this) you can 99% of the time force the steal. Running flash and having Q + smite means you can just run in and force the steal, but it's at the risk of your life. If this does happen, he grabs q at level 3. As for which camps he does? I can't recall but I know there's a vod of a failed steal (he stole it then died), so if you were really interested you could look for the camps he does afterwards.
Yea seriously. No way you can ward their blue without them 1 shooting it. Eski is a great plyer but does some really weird things, wouldn't recommend using this. Honestly, you should be able to push the other jungle off blue without warding. I'm thinking maybe go tp smite, ward their red, push them off blue, tp to your ward to steal their red. Still go 21 utility though. Gonna try this when I get over solo lane nunu pwnage.
Now that creep score isn't visible, I've started playing around with early dragon builds for Nunu. Clearly, don't try to go for an early dragon against teams containing champs like eve, ww, twitch, etc (anyone who can invis or might also go to dragon before 4 minutes). Here's the best I've found:
Masteries: 1/8/21 works, but you get awfully low at dragon. 1/17/12 felt significantly safer and gave enough health to be willing to gank sooner.
Runes: Armor quints and yellows, mana regen/lvl blues, a mix of arpen and atspd reds. If you wanted to swap the reds for mpen I wouldn't blame you, but I've found a mix of these two reds to be optimal for jungling speed.
Spells: Smite/Ghost. Smite/Flash is probably fine too.
Items: Cloth + 5pot (needed for dragon. If you aren't dragoning you don't need 5 pots)
Blue (bot left) Team: Q first. Munch big wolf at 1:40, then punch another one to death. Leave the last one, because blue has spawned and we don't need a quick respawn on the wolves. Kill blue using smite, ding 2 and take W. Run back and kill the last wolf on the way to wraiths. Munch the big wraith and whack the other ones to death. Now you'll be level 3 (take E) and it should be somewhere around 3:00. Drink a potion if you aren't at full health and wait for Q if it is on cd - this is a relatively tough fight. At dragon, basically just spam your moves and potions and he should go down (you'll be at less than 100HP without def masteries and a little over 200 with them).
One thing to note is that W has a shorter cooldown than its duration. Don't use it until the buff is about to wear off to conserve a bit of mana. Additionally, if you are having trouble killing dragon with QWE, take QEQ and I can almost guarantee it will work then. It just isn't as ideal of a skill build for ganking.
Once you finish dragon, you should still have a couple potions left, walk over to red and kill it. At this point, I was level 4 with QWEE, about 450 HP at 4:45. You can gank if people are low or just do small golems and recall.
Purple (top): Wraiths (smite one consume another, then punch other two) -> Wolves -> blue -> dragon. This route is a little harder because you don't get to smite blue, but it ends up being a few seconds faster.
Screw Jungle Nunu, lane him. He is essentially the old malphite but better.
Mpen Reds // mp5pl blues and yellows (sub in cdr or mres if you want) // Health Quints
0/9/21 or you can throw more in defense tree if you want.
Summoners are can be pretty much anything, but Teleport, flash, ghost, smite and ignite are all viable options.
Skill order is: EQEWER - R > E > Q = W
If you need more Q, then get it, otherwise, just level W.
Items:
Ring +Pot -> boots -> Revolver -> Treads - > Banshee (you can throw Cata in eariler if you want) -> Gunblade -> Randuins
Why revolver / Gunblade?
In lane, Nunu's Q does 500 True damage to minions at level 1 and heals 125 health. With 15% vamp, it heals 125 + (.15) * 500 = 200. The full base healing with revolver (ignoring AP) is: Level 1: 125 + .15 * 500 = 200 Level 2: 180 + .15 * 600 = 270 Level 3: 235 + .15 * 700 = 340 Level 4: 290 + .15 * 800 = 410 Level 5: 345 + .15 * 900 = 480
If I wasn't too lazy to ignore AP (55 after ring + revolver) the totals would be even higher.
During teamfights, with 15% / 20% vamp, a single ult can heal him for 500+ HP as well.
Playstyle:
Harass with E as much as mana allows. Eat a minion when necessary and try to proc your free spells as much as possible (without pushing the lane). Remember that E costs more mana than Q.
On December 22 2010 04:17 ShoreT wrote: Screw Jungle Nunu, lane him. He is essentially the old malphite but better.
Mpen Reds // mp5pl blues and yellows (sub in cdr or mres if you want) // Health Quints
0/9/21 or you can throw more in defense tree if you want.
Summoners are can be pretty much anything, but Teleport, flash, ghost, smite and ignite are all viable options.
Skill order is: EQEWER - R > E > Q = W
If you need more Q, then get it, otherwise, just level W.
Items:
Ring +Pot -> boots -> Revolver -> Treads - > Banshee (you can throw Cata in eariler if you want) -> Gunblade -> Randuins
Why revolver / Gunblade?
In lane, Nunu's Q does 500 True damage to minions at level 1 and heals 125 health. With 15% vamp, it heals 125 + (.15) * 500 = 200. The full base healing with revolver (ignoring AP) is: Level 1: 125 + .15 * 500 = 200 Level 2: 180 + .15 * 600 = 270 Level 3: 235 + .15 * 700 = 340 Level 4: 290 + .15 * 800 = 410 Level 5: 345 + .15 * 900 = 480
If I wasn't too lazy to ignore AP (55 after ring + revolver) the totals would be even higher.
During teamfights, with 15% / 20% vamp, a single ult can heal him for 500+ HP as well.
Playstyle:
Harass with E as much as mana allows. Eat a minion when necessary and try to proc your free spells as much as possible (without pushing the lane). Remember that E costs more mana than Q.
Flat AP quints > HP quints on lane nunu. Consume and iceblast both scale 1-1 and you should never be low on hp as nunu anyways. I also get ap blues, yellows + meditiaon + passive allows for enough spamming. Also, getting gunblade for spell vamp is really bad. Sure you can heal a bit more from minions (this is a non-factor after laning phase) and healing off of your ulti is just ~_~. I've found that tank nunu is best (BB your carry, poke/slow champs, and aoe slow with your ulti) but ap nunu is OK.
On December 21 2010 21:56 cascades wrote: Is it after patch? Now that wards can be one-hit, doesn't seem as viable.
He has run this since the patch. He forgot about the 1 hit ward and it ended up getting eaten. But he ran up from the back and flashed over the wall to Q + smite steal. I don't know if he still runs this regularly or not anymore.
There probably are ways to improve it (like the others already mentioned), but the core tactic seems pretty solid. Q + Smite > any other junglers burst at lvl1, therefore Nunu has great potential for buff steals. The ward isn't really essential, sure it helps a fucktonne but with Flash as a summoner spell where there's a will there's a way.
On December 21 2010 23:38 HazMat wrote: Yea seriously. No way you can ward their blue without them 1 shooting it. Eski is a great plyer but does some really weird things, wouldn't recommend using this. Honestly, you should be able to push the other jungle off blue without warding. I'm thinking maybe go tp smite, ward their red, push them off blue, tp to your ward to steal their red. Still go 21 utility though. Gonna try this when I get over solo lane nunu pwnage.
Sounds like a good improvement to me, let us know how it goes.
I've been thinking a lot about nunu and tbh I'm surprised he isn't played like trundle, considering he can basically does the same thing but better - that is, trinity force into tank items. You play him as a tanky dps/disabler.
The thing that makes nunu awesome is that he has good stats in every direction. You can seriously build whatever you want on him and he'll be at least capable... this cookie cutter banshee's-every-time shit has got to stop. It's probably the most often correct build for him, not the strictly best one in any meaningful sense.
On December 05 2010 10:59 rwrzr wrote: Spell-Vamp nunu is quite strong. If you are looking to change things up.
On December 16 2010 13:35 rwrzr wrote: I shit you not spell vamp nunu after banshees is pretty silly.
On December 22 2010 04:17 ShoreT wrote: Screw Jungle Nunu, lane him. He is essentially the old malphite but better.
Mpen Reds // mp5pl blues and yellows (sub in cdr or mres if you want) // Health Quints
0/9/21 or you can throw more in defense tree if you want.
Summoners are can be pretty much anything, but Teleport, flash, ghost, smite and ignite are all viable options.
Skill order is: EQEWER - R > E > Q = W
If you need more Q, then get it, otherwise, just level W.
Items:
Ring +Pot -> boots -> Revolver -> Treads - > Banshee (you can throw Cata in eariler if you want) -> Gunblade -> Randuins
Why revolver / Gunblade?
In lane, Nunu's Q does 500 True damage to minions at level 1 and heals 125 health. With 15% vamp, it heals 125 + (.15) * 500 = 200. The full base healing with revolver (ignoring AP) is: Level 1: 125 + .15 * 500 = 200 Level 2: 180 + .15 * 600 = 270 Level 3: 235 + .15 * 700 = 340 Level 4: 290 + .15 * 800 = 410 Level 5: 345 + .15 * 900 = 480
If I wasn't too lazy to ignore AP (55 after ring + revolver) the totals would be even higher.
During teamfights, with 15% / 20% vamp, a single ult can heal him for 500+ HP as well.
Playstyle:
Harass with E as much as mana allows. Eat a minion when necessary and try to proc your free spells as much as possible (without pushing the lane). Remember that E costs more mana than Q.
Just asked Eski about his Nunu build, he's changed it up a bit cause of 1 hit wards. Last game he played he did what Hazmat was suggesting and warded the enemy red.
So what's the generally accepted jungle Nunu build at this point? I just tried something like this:
AS quints/reds, Armor yellows, MR/lvl blues 9/0/21 Open Doran's Shield + 1 pot
I didn't really have a good idea of what to buy so I just sorta bought things randomly. Went Boots -> Catalyst -> Merc treads -> BV -> Sunfire. Got the banshee's decently early because they had a really fed fiddle or else I probably would have bought some kind of armor item first. Is HoG/Randuin's worth it on him? Should I be buying some AP, like a RoA or Deathcap?
Banshee's is always going to be a good item to rush on Nunu. It can greatly increase his chances of getting off a full ult (Needless to say, a well placed full ult has a massive impact on teamfights).
AP Vs Tank depends on the team comps, go for whichever your team needs in the situation. In a recent game I played with Nunu I was able to get away with stacking AP and dealing in excess of 2k damage with my ult, but the enemy team was retarded to let me get my ult off.
I'm writing this as a bit of a pre-guide, while this build is good now it will become much better after Doran's change.
Solo top AP Nunu Very aggressive playstyle.
Runes: Flat AP Quints, mpen reds, MP5/lvl yellows, Flat or scaling AP blues. Masteries: 9/0/21 (spell pen from offense, good hands, greed, meditation. 1 point utility mastery. Skill order: E first. Depending on how the level 1 fight went will decide your second spell- Q if you came out at a disadvantage, W if you're ahead. If at any point lane becomes too hard get another level of consume on an even level. R>E>W>Q. Typically: EWEQER Summoner spells: Flash and Ignite are the only acceptable summoners. No exceptions. Initial buy: Doran's ring and mana potion (potion soon to be obsolete) Items: Usually your first trip to buy happens at level 4 or 5 or whenever the enemy leave lanes. First buy should be boots1 and a second Doran's ring. Boots stay at 1 unless there's a specific reason to upgrade them. The remainder of the items are flexible, just don't buy catalyst as first buy. Nunu is a fine candidate for Mejais+blue pot. Mid game aim for an item build similar to boots1+deathcap+banshees+another AP item(In any order)
Gameplay: Top lane is preferred. Lane Nunu's success hinges almost entirely on the first 3 levels in lane. Start by waiting in a brush until the enemy moves to last hit, once a creep is hit attack them with E. Reactions vary from opponent to opponent, but generally they will either move to tower or move to brush. If they move to tower, simply start denying exp and E if they approach. If they stay in experience range attack them, if you're cautious to not tank any minion aggro the combination of a 135 damage nuke on a 5 second CD and ignite should win every lane. At any point the enemy is gone and you have 1 point in bloodboil you are free to go buy.
Assuming you kill them or force them out of lane, the rest of the game is easy. Each time they return you should be able to quickly force them out of lane with leveled E and blood boil's movespeed. Once Nunu gains any level or item advantage his lane becomes unfarmable.
If lane is going well, around level 7 you should be able to afford mejais and a blue potion, at this point gank a lane. These timing ganks are incredibly powerful and most enemies should die easily.
While this build will beat most of the popular solo lanes, there's a few to keep note of: Sion- Vital you force him out of lane at level one. Consider opening blue elixir + 5 mana potions Nidalee- Force out of lane before 5. She's weak early. Gangplank- Immune to Nunu AD Udyr: Outdamages Nunu.
Fun lanes: Vlad, Akali, Annie, Renekton, melee champs in general.
edit: Not a theorycraft guide, here it is in action- http://i.imgur.com/0inNJ.jpg edit2: Once Nunu forces someone out of lane its effectively a 4v5 the rest of the game.
Skill order: E first. Depending on how the level 1 fight went will decide your second spell- Q if you can out at a disadvantage, W if you're ahead. If at any point lane becomes too hard get another level of consume on an even level. R>E>W>Q. Typically: EWEQER
i assume this is 'came', just a typo to fix
otherwise, looks great. i tried out solo nunu before and failed miserably, probably kus i did put any pressure until 6, at which point i started getting beat out of lane and was forced to level consume 2 extra points and ended up low on gold and zoned :[
I have found that nunu is splendidly fast at jungling in certain aspects, such as doing the blue/red buffs, but is atrocious in terms of finishing off the smaller creeps, relatively speaking. I.e. you're spending half a second killing the thing that gives you 80% of your exp, and wasting 8 seconds cleaning up the thing that gives you the rest.
What I would like to try out is maybe have someone like corki or sivir mid, so that I can just eat the big wraith and let the mid cleanup after me. It could also be ashe helping to speed up the clear time with a volley. It would speed up his clear time tremendously, and while it would give him slightly less exp overall, it would also give him a LOT more time to gank/counterjungle.
On February 18 2011 00:07 Juicyfruit wrote: I have found that nunu is splendidly fast at jungling in certain aspects, such as doing the blue/red buffs, but is atrocious in terms of finishing off the smaller creeps, relatively speaking. I.e. you're spending half a second killing the thing that gives you 80% of your exp, and wasting 8 seconds cleaning up the thing that gives you the rest.
What I would like to try out is maybe have someone like corki or sivir mid, so that I can just eat the big wraith and let the mid cleanup after me. It could also be ashe helping to speed up the clear time with a volley. It would speed up his clear time tremendously, and while it would give him slightly less exp overall, it would also give him a LOT more time to gank/counterjungle.
The biggest issue I see with this is that it makes it so that your first jungle clear leaves you at level 3, rather than giving you level 4. While that's technically "faster", it sort of limits the options you have with regard to what you can do once that clear is done.
Blue -> clear wolves -> eat wraith -> twins -> red -> eat big wolf -> gank OR counterjungle.
Since most junglers b at this point you get just enough clear speed to eat his big wraith and clear both twins before going back, or gank if you have a chance.
Assuming your teammates cleared the jungle for you, your own creeps will respawn again by the time you get back.
On February 18 2011 00:35 Juicyfruit wrote: Something like:
Blue -> clear wolves -> eat wraith -> twins -> red -> eat big wolf -> gank OR counterjungle.
You finish your first "clear" at ~3:50 (not much faster than a normal clear), but you wolves don't respawn till about 4:15. In addition to having to pass red to do smallgols first, and then double back, it's probably just faster to clear wraiths. Ice Blast really isn't that bad of a skill for clearing small camps.
Eat big wolf -> Get help clearing the other two (cleared before 1:52) -> Get to blue as it spawns -> Eat wraith -> twins -> red -> eat big wolf (respawned by 3:22) -> counterjungle
On February 18 2011 00:47 Juicyfruit wrote: Wolves respawn every minute no?
Anyways I made a mistake, I meant to say
Eat big wolf -> Get help clearing the other two (cleared before 1:52) -> Get to blue as it spawns -> Eat wraith -> twins -> red -> eat big wolf (respawned by 2:52) -> counterjungle
Respawn times on small minions is 100 seconds.
And I'm still pretty sure it doesn't save any time. A normal clear finishes by 4:00, as opposed to 3:50 if you don't bother to clear the small wraiths. It'll take more than 10 seconds for you to get back to the wolf camp to eat the big wolf again (even if it does respawn in time), so there's pretty much no gain.
You have to go through wolves to counterjungle their wraith and twins =o you're not wasting any time by doubling back.
Saving myself 10 seconds seems rather valuable, but that's just me. You start off by saving the 10 seconds it takes to kill wolves (because you kill it before blue respanws), and then another 10 seconds it would take to clear the three smaller wraiths. That's...maybe 20 seconds you just saved.
10 seconds is a rough estimate. I was giving a rough ballpark because when I tested it, I cleared a small wraith in addition to the big wraith before moving on and finished at 4 mins. Skipping that wraith probably wouldn't save a full 10 seconds.
On February 18 2011 00:55 Juicyfruit wrote: Saving myself 10 seconds seems rather valuable, but that's just me. You start off by saving the 10 seconds it takes to kill wolves (because you kill it before blue respanws), and then another 10 seconds it would take to clear the three smaller wraiths. That's...maybe 20 seconds you just saved.
You'd normally eat the big wolf before blue spawns anyway, and you eat the other small wolf when you come back--meaning that it takes like an Ice Blast and 2 autoattacks to kill the 3rd wolf. Definitely not 10 seconds saved.
And you don't save 10 seconds on the small wraiths since clearing small wraiths makes back some time because you hit level 3 for the next camp (and having 2nd rank Ice Blast speeds up your red/minigols clear).
On February 18 2011 01:11 TheYango wrote: 10 seconds is a rough estimate. I was giving a rough ballpark because when I tested it, I cleared a small wraith in addition to the big wraith before moving on and finished at 4 mins. Skipping that wraith probably wouldn't save a full 10 seconds.
On February 18 2011 00:55 Juicyfruit wrote: Saving myself 10 seconds seems rather valuable, but that's just me. You start off by saving the 10 seconds it takes to kill wolves (because you kill it before blue respanws), and then another 10 seconds it would take to clear the three smaller wraiths. That's...maybe 20 seconds you just saved.
You'd normally eat the big wolf before blue spawns anyway, and you eat the other small wolf when you come back--meaning that it takes like an Ice Blast and 2 autoattacks to kill the 3rd wolf. Definitely not 10 seconds saved.
And you don't save 10 seconds on the small wraiths since clearing small wraiths makes back some time because you hit level 3 for the next camp.
hmmm? Consume + smite instantly kills a stone golem which is your next target anyways. You'll be level 3 for the other one.
On February 18 2011 01:18 Juicyfruit wrote: hmmm? Consume + smite instantly kills a stone golem which is your next target anyways. You'll be level 3 for the other one.
Then you don't have smite for red. If you consider that OK, then you probably save slightly more time. I save smite for buffs during the first clear on principle (with exceptions for Big Wolf/Big Wraith smites on non-blue starts).
On February 18 2011 01:18 Juicyfruit wrote: hmmm? Consume + smite instantly kills a stone golem which is your next target anyways. You'll be level 3 for the other one.
Then you don't have smite for red. If you consider that OK, then you probably save slightly more time. I save smite for buffs during the first clear on principle.
It's generally considered futile to try and jack nunu's buffs, so pretty much no one tries anyways
But you actually want the entire wolf camp cleared before blue spawns. Get help from your team as long as they don't exp-jack the big one. That way you'll be eating a second big wolf on your way up after doing red.
On February 18 2011 01:21 Juicyfruit wrote: It's generally considered futile to try and jack nunu's buffs, so pretty much no one tries anyways
But you actually want the entire wolf camp cleared before blue spawns. Get help from your team as long as they don't exp-jack the big one. That way you'll be eating a second big wolf on your way up after doing red.
I know *your* path wants help clearing the wolf camp, but my point was that it saves very little time over a normal clear because a normal clear only really spends time on the last small wolf.
I guess the advantage of getting help to clear wolves BEFORE you do blue is that the wolves will respawn faster. How long does it take to do blue + walk to wolves? If you can make use of that earlier wolves respawn then you might save some time. Otherwise it doesn't seem too big of a deal.
On February 18 2011 01:38 Juicyfruit wrote: Saves about 15 seconds on wolf respawn?
Clearing blue takes about 10-15 seconds and walking over takes about 2-3
On a normal clear, the wolves will respawn before you get there. Particularly if you gank or bluepill first
Your whole path hinges on mid being able to find an opening to clear small wraiths--which may or may not happen in those first 3 levels. Not to mention that it's pretty unreasonable to expect someone to clear the small wolves (way too far from lane).
A normal clear is also slower by about 20 seconds..that's kinda the point =o to save a dozen seconds so that you can either
a) get to their wraith/stone golem respawn before them or b) catch enemy jungler doing red while you're double-buffed
Whether my mid clear the wolves is irrelevant if I can guarantee enemy jungler's wraiths and twins, which I am hoping that it would. And yes, it does hinge on mid clearing the wraiths, that's the basis for this route to begin with.
On February 18 2011 01:45 Juicyfruit wrote: A normal clear is also slower by about 20 seconds..that's kinda the point =o to save a dozen seconds so that you can either
a) get to their wraith/stone golem respawn before them or b) catch enemy jungler doing red while you're double-buffed
Whether my mid clear the wolves is irrelevant if I can guarantee enemy jungler's wraiths and twins, which I am hoping that it would. And yes, it does hinge on mid clearing the wraiths, that's the basis for this route to begin with.
You should be able to do A even if you do a normal clear and pill--and what jungler goes slow enough that your path makes B possible? Even if finish red at 3:40, you won't get to their red till past 4 minutes, at which point pretty much any reasonable jungler will be ganking/bluepilling.
On February 18 2011 01:45 Juicyfruit wrote: A normal clear is also slower by about 20 seconds..that's kinda the point =o to save a dozen seconds so that you can either
a) get to their wraith/stone golem respawn before them or b) catch enemy jungler doing red while you're double-buffed
Whether my mid clear the wolves is irrelevant if I can guarantee enemy jungler's wraiths and twins, which I am hoping that it would. And yes, it does hinge on mid clearing the wraiths, that's the basis for this route to begin with.
You should be able to do A even if you do a normal clear and pill--and what jungler goes slow enough that your path makes B possible?
On February 18 2011 01:45 Juicyfruit wrote: A normal clear is also slower by about 20 seconds..that's kinda the point =o to save a dozen seconds so that you can either
a) get to their wraith/stone golem respawn before them or b) catch enemy jungler doing red while you're double-buffed
Whether my mid clear the wolves is irrelevant if I can guarantee enemy jungler's wraiths and twins, which I am hoping that it would. And yes, it does hinge on mid clearing the wraiths, that's the basis for this route to begin with.
You should be able to do A even if you do a normal clear and pill--and what jungler goes slow enough that your path makes B possible?
Warwick =o
Warwick still doing red at 4 mins?
He's slow, but I'm pretty sure he'd be doing minigols by the time you got there.
On February 18 2011 01:45 Juicyfruit wrote: A normal clear is also slower by about 20 seconds..that's kinda the point =o to save a dozen seconds so that you can either
a) get to their wraith/stone golem respawn before them or b) catch enemy jungler doing red while you're double-buffed
Whether my mid clear the wolves is irrelevant if I can guarantee enemy jungler's wraiths and twins, which I am hoping that it would. And yes, it does hinge on mid clearing the wraiths, that's the basis for this route to begin with.
You should be able to do A even if you do a normal clear and pill--and what jungler goes slow enough that your path makes B possible?
Warwick =o
Warwick still doing red at 4 mins?
He's slow, but I'm pretty sure he'd be doing minigols by the time you got there.
Well that's what I am curious about. I have no idea how fast I can get to the enemy jungle but I would peg it at "pretty fast" when you open boots and have a speed steroid.
Also, if you're against a jungler you know is going to blue pill without taking red, you can definitely call mid or top over to take their red.
On February 21 2011 06:10 Phrost wrote: i like aspd red runes instead of armor pen because it lets his passive proc more often so you dont insta-lose if they steal your blue buff
I've played Nunu for about a month in. in normal and in ranked games, the best thing to start out with, is Boots + hp + ward, to spot for there red, or blue. which is very good for early game jungle ganks/steals. this has won me many games, stealing there red/blue and renedering there jungle pretty useless for the next five mins of the game, which opens alot that i can do around the map,
What is everyone's opinion on revolver? I recall seeing a nunu get it during dh. When is this a viable item to get? Is it simply a luxury item or does it depend on team comp? I've gotten a hextech a few times, but it rarely made an actual difference in the game (usually our team would be raping too hard at this point to lose)... just makes your sustainability that much greater. Iirc, the nunu actually got a hextech pretty early as well (around level 10 or 11).
I might as well share my limited knowledge of this champion by entering my build into this thread
smite/flash: might try teleport soon. a ward tp gank at level 4 or so must be pretty brutal. aspd/apen red, armor yellow, ms/hp quints, mr/lvl blues: self-explanatory (the ms might be redundant but i don't have full hp quints yet ) 1/8/21: though i played around with 1/21/8, i find the neutral buff duration and the significantly lower cd smite/flash to be really really helpful when countering the enemy jungle early on. Late-game, the usefulness definitely tapers off, but lategame nunu is just a slow/bb bot anyways. Building tank helps a lot more than the masteries. opening: boots, ward, hp: cloth armor is definitely an unnecessary item on nunu (doesn't need it for jungling and doesn't really build into something you need on nunu)
i always start off jacking enemy jungle. wraith if no one is around to help. blue if my team is up. wraiths->wolves->blue->gank if opportunity presents itself. i usually offer the first blue to mid lane if its a champion that can benefit well from it. otherwise, i take it for myself. blue->wraiths->wolves->blue (give to someone else)->gank.
nunu is such a solid jungler you really don't need a set order to kill creeps.
i usually level q e q w e r (level 2 consume makes your counterjungling ridiculous). with 21 utility, you have like a 40 sec timer on smite which means it'll be up almost everytime you need it.
i just gank fest during early and early mid game and transition into either mass wards + oracle or bv+hog if my farm is somehow decent (or if the support has that role on lockdown). regardless, i find halving the ward role with the support helps the support out greatly.
my 2 cents.
edit: countering a shaco is a little more difficult as they usually start near wraiths and sometimes even have a box up there.
Does this help the heal on his Q? if it does mabye get it vs a hemier so when you nom his turret during a Teamfight you get more hp. does anyone play heimer?
On July 07 2011 01:55 Trotske wrote: Does this help the heal on his Q? if it does mabye get it vs a hemier so when you nom his turret during a Teamfight you get more hp. does anyone play heimer?
It does help his Q. Revolver on Nunu is more geared towards a mid-late game WotA when you run a double AP comp. As TOO said in his interview by FakeSteve, junglers tend to play a support role in high elo games/tourneys. Nunu helps to flesh out that role by getting revolver into WotA, which will also help him deal a tiny bit more damage.
No one really plays heimer...he's really good at pushing down towers in lane...but that's about it. Unless you get fed. In which case grenade+rockets can hurt a shitton.
I'm going to add what I do with nunu at the 1600-1700 area on NA server. Support nunu works with 3 AD bot, vayne, trist, and sivir. You want auto heavy champions, but I haven't tried him with other powerful bot ad like corki, ez, graves, or kog. Nunu's good stats make him a safe choice for early oracle. His Snowball slows movement speed by 60%, and attack speed by 25% at all levels, meaning you're going to win almost all trades bottom lane (you need to burst against sustain bottom lanes, if someone steps too far, they die). His ulti also slows movement speed by 50%, and attack speed by 25%. With a lvl 6 full duration ult doing 600 damage, he has amazing zoning capabilities during teamfights, and if the enemy support every stupidly wastes all the interrupts. Bloodboil guarantee's your ad will get out of trades better than theirs giving 11-15% movement speed and 25-65% attack speed.
You have multiple start items, and I like CV and summoner heal. Standard faerie charm + wards, or cloth armor + wards etc. The better your ad scales into lategame, the better your bloodboil gets. I use almost any tanky runes, flat hp, armor and mr. I go an almost full support 0/5/25 or some variation.
I like to build whatever I feel like will help me in lane. Frozen heart is amazing, because of it's 20% attack speed reduction (then calculate in the 25% from E and 25% from ult). Merc treads and an early oracle if they enemy is warding a lot, and anything else you want, including gp5 items.
Nunu is similar to janna, in not being a sustain support, but also similar to alistar in that catching anything out of position is going to mean a swift unstoppable death. Think of back when janna's shield lasted a full 10 seconds. It got hit with the nerfbat. Nunu's bloodboil last a full 15 seconds, being refreshed as the cd comes off. Once you hit level 16, your ult does 1125 damage, for nothing other than having a long game.
Nunu is a free zeal and recurve bow, a free frozen heart on the champion of your choice, and a 1000 damage ulti which just begs to have cc used on you instead of someone more important than the support. He turns your carry into an uncatchable death machine on whatever the two of you want to rape.
So far my score with Nunu in ranked is 7-1. You would think that a sustain would beat nunu, but sustain is dependent on being able to trade and slowly whittle down the enemy. With nunu when you engage you go for the kill. The same goes for alistar. Nunu loves tanking damage, and anything that gets into melee range is going to lose most of their hp from snowballs plus your AD. I haven't played against a janna, however I expect her to do the best against someone like nunu.
What got me started playing nunu as a support was getting wrecked by one when I was playing soraka. He's a bigger bitch than alistar. Try him out if someone picks the right ad for him to support.
When do you grab a point in Consume? Can't use it to sustain while laning unless your AD isn't around, but is it useful to help with dragons or (if blue(?)) speeding up your AD farming double golems? Do you smack minions around in lane to charge your passive?
Most nunu's get consume at lvl 13. w and e too good. Was just thinking of what would be the best runes/masteries to run on nunu. hp5 regen quints, armor yellow, armor red, mr blue? I dont agree with arcbound on going 25utility. I would really like initiator on nunu, but ofc things can be different. Starting cloth wards pots seemed to be what most people did at kiev.
Nunu seems best when facing a sustain like vayne/soraka that just want to sit and farm, and seems to do well with many ads. With cait she has enough sustain and dominance where she doesnt really need the heal support, or someone like kog where you just steroid him up more so his w rapes.
A jungler friend of mine really loves consume leashes. That plus the ability to sustain myself and assist in smiting dragon makes me really like a level 1 consume and leave it there. Snowball obviously is far superior in level 1 fights though, so I hold off on taking any level 1 skill until we know if the other team is invading or we decide to invade the other team.
Oh and I run gp10 quints. I don't see a good reason not to.
Rugfeeder's pro solo top NuNu build Start: Dring or Null magic mantle (vs all magic lane, jungle) Boots + 0 or 2 Drings Spirit Visage/Revolver in either order NLR Deathcap Wota Banshee's/Frozen Heart
Skill/Mastery/Rune QEEW, R>E>Q>W Magic pen, Armor, CDR or AP/lvl, AP or magic pen 21/0/9 or 9/0/21
Gameplay: ICE BALL ICE BALL ICE BALL ICE BALL autoattack to push the lane, who cares consume whenever you can, try and use passive for free iceballz since it costs lots of mana, don't bother with W unless you need to chase or run away fight whenever you can, trade all the hits, buy wards and cover yourself, push the lane If a melee tries to fight you, iceballz and run Ult is great at chumping people 1v1 or 1v2. Bait out their flashes and their cc, then ult for doublekills. Suprez. Late game, just haste your carry and peel. Ult right next to your carry - not only is it a safe place to ult, but it forces them to choose between 100000 damage or running away.
I get consume first most of the time to eat enemy big wraith, then consumeleash blue buff.
On January 27 2012 17:13 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Why dont I see more jungle nunus?
Even after the buffs, he's too slow, at least in my opinion. OddOne, one of the most avid Nunu players, says he just falls off too hard in the new jungle because the way he counterjungles doesn't fit it all that well any more. I just don't see a reason to ever pick Nunu in the jungle when about everything that makes him useful works pretty much as good without any farm at all.
Nunu in his prime was powerful because consume allowed him to counterjungle extremely well and could secure anything with consume+smite. His bloodboil let him run away from the vast majority of junglers/avoid getting caught. Iceball was an insane slow at lvl 1 and could let you escape anyone and Nunu ganks were godly. Then came the nerfs.
Consume nerf meant he couldn't jungle/counter-jungle as safely. Iceball nerf meant he lost precious skill points in leveling it up enough for it to be a gank threat. With release of champs like Shyvana and Skarner, the previously unmatched mobility of bloodboil was gone and there were many champs that could catch Nunu out of position (and kill him) np. Then the jungle change screwed him over even more. Nunu was never very good/fast at clearing camps; he was godly at securing buffs and objectives, but his clear speed was always pretty slow. He can't even keep up with his own jungle's spawn time, not to mention the opponent's jungle.
For jungle Nunu to become even close to viable again, Riot needs to revert some, if not all, of the nerfs.
Also a few posts back someone said why not always run gp10? A lot of bots are starting to run more hp5 regen quints instead, just to be able to sustain a bit better vs ad's and just in general the opness of ad's now adays. Remember clg had a scrim with hotshot loco vs chauster doublelift and hotshot ran hp5regen and was able to harass a lot better.
I have been personally trying it out, it does slow down your ward and money acceleration but if you know those first few minutes down at bot lane are going to set the pace for the game it's worth it starting with a massive sustain bonus.
i have to say i was startled yesterday when i tried nunu out again by the difference the attack speed buff makes. Bloodboil is significantly stronger and the extra free spells help out with his mana and clear speed by a LOT. I had the good fortune to have the opposing jungler be a slow guy (malphite) and i don't think i've ever raped a jungle so hard. When i went back for the first time at 11 minutes and had enough for deathcap i knew i was pretty much committed to troll items and indeed deathfire grasp jungle nunu did carry the day. New favorite counterpick to gimmick junglers.
I'm playing nunu as a support at around 1400. And tbh i freaking love him!
But i can't decide which template to go. I have two and both are doing great, but can't find the BEST :D If you could help me
1st template: red : magic pen / yellow : armor / blue : mr quint : hp/5
0/7/23 with 3 points in vigor and strenght of spirit
so mass hp/5 with runes + masteries
2nd template
red : magic pen / yellow : armor / blue : mr quint : health
0/9/21 (normal masteries)
so mass early health.
I guess i can harass more with the first template, but if i get caught by early ganks, i won't survive a gank i would have survived with health. And with the second one i can survive more but i'm losing some sustain in lane. What do you think?
Do you think it'd be worth it to build nunu as a traditional bruiser? I don't mean full out ghostblade atma's but I just mean avoiding AP items and building a wriggles atmogs phage aegis negatron. Nunu already has the best(?) health scaling in the game and his bloodboil affects both him and another target. I feel like his E is used mostly for the slow effect though it can pick up clutch kills. In addition his ult is a bit too inconsistent to be worth considering as a 2.5 AP ratio skill. It's still very strong with no AP items.
Just realized too, that when I play morgana I should focus more on blackshielding allied nunus and katarinas in team fights.
Come to think of it.... M5 should really have ran Morgana mid if they were going to have a nunu support. WTF clear team synergy.
On February 16 2012 22:44 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Do you think it'd be worth it to build nunu as a traditional bruiser? I don't mean full out ghostblade atma's but I just mean avoiding AP items and building a wriggles atmogs phage aegis negatron. Nunu already has the best(?) health scaling in the game and his bloodboil affects both him and another target. I feel like his E is used mostly for the slow effect though it can pick up clutch kills. In addition his ult is a bit too inconsistent to be worth considering as a 2.5 AP ratio skill. It's still very strong with no AP items.
Just realized too, that when I play morgana I should focus more on blackshielding allied nunus and katarinas in team fights.
Come to think of it.... M5 should really have ran Morgana mid if they were going to have a nunu support. WTF clear team synergy.
Na, AP scales too well on him.
If you wanna take advantage of blood boil on yourself more, you need solo farm and the build is: dring boots revolver RoA finish with Triforce, Frozen Heart, FoN, and Gunblade as necessary.
It's janky and takes forever, but it's pretty hilarious when you're getting stupid amounts of farm. I just can't justify Warmog's over RoA as the primary source of HP on Nunu, the costs are too similar, and RoA just gives you the stats you want much better than Mog's does.
I still like the idea of bruiser nunu, but I've been having second thoughts on jungling nunu since his burst really isn't that great. I don't think I'll ever jungle him again.
I almost stopped reading after i read "don't be a noob and grab flash". I find this to be a truly pathetic guide in general that only covers 1 aspect (jungle) of nunu, and a very inefficient version of him in this role at that. Your skill priorities for jungling are all wrong, not a lot makes sense here :S This isn't intended as a personal attack agains the OP, just the guide (a very disapointing one...) It might just be personal opinion but I don't find nunu to be viable in any role except support (yes jungle can work in solo queue but there are just so many better junglers out there). The first post should've focused on support nunu with a side section on jungling and maybe another on solo trolling...
On February 26 2012 01:06 MyTHicaL wrote: I almost stopped reading after i read "don't be a noob and grab flash". I find this to be a truly pathetic guide in general that only covers 1 aspect (jungle) of nunu, and a very inefficient version of him in this role at that. Your skill priorities for jungling are all wrong, not a lot makes sense here :S This isn't intended as a personal attack agains the OP, just the guide (a very disapointing one...) It might just be personal opinion but I don't find nunu to be viable in any role except support (yes jungle can work in solo queue but there are just so many better junglers out there). The first post should've focused on support nunu with a side section on jungling and maybe another on solo trolling...
It was made 2 years ago, what do you expect?
Oh, didn't realise; then I guess I expect it to be updated ^_^;::
so, I tried AP nunu and failed pretty badly. Can't figure out how to play him and whats his role. Tank, off-tank, jungler, CC-er or support? Can someone give advice how should I build him, what do I do in teamfights? Yeah I know, W your carry, E their carry, R after they used their stun spells. But everytime everything seem to go wrong. Generally speaking, do you buy wards and go with your carries or you just focus on farming? Do you tank a lot of damage or do you just stay aside and help your team with spells? whats usual kda ratio on nunu? general advice would be appreciated. thanks.
Edit: nvm, it turns out tank Nunu (with 0/21/9) is the best. Use your ult to CC, not to damage, but if it does then its nice bonus. Get some CDR defense items like Frozen Heart and Randuin's shield, then proceed to spam abilities. Nunu has the best health scaling throughout the game and you can tank lots of damage. Buff your carry, nerf their carry, chase down enemies, overall very fun champ and everyone loves you in your team
On March 11 2012 14:42 bokeevboke wrote: so, I tried AP nunu and failed pretty badly. Can't figure out how to play him and whats his role. Tank, off-tank, jungler, CC-er or support? Can someone give advice how should I build him, what do I do in teamfights? Yeah I know, W your carry, E their carry, R after they used their stun spells. But everytime everything seem to go wrong. Generally speaking, do you buy wards and go with your carries or you just focus on farming? Do you tank a lot of damage or do you just stay aside and help your team with spells? whats usual kda ratio on nunu? general advice would be appreciated. thanks.
Edit: nvm, it turns out tank Nunu (with 0/21/9) is the best. Use your ult to CC, not to damage, but if it does then its nice bonus. Get some CDR defense items like Frozen Heart and Randuin's shield, then proceed to spam abilities. Nunu has the best health scaling throughout the game and you can tank lots of damage. Buff your carry, nerf their carry, chase down enemies, overall very fun champ and everyone loves you in your team
AP NuNu is basically a cheesy lane dominator that turns into a support late game who can also win teamfights if given the opportunity. If you want to play AP nunu, build Hextech -> WotA, Spirit Visage, and Deathcap in some order, then get tank items with any additional money you happen to get. Usual KDA is something like 5/3/1515135. Most of your kills come in lane, with a few from teamfights or ganks. Most of your deaths will be when you get ganked in lane or when you ult in teamfights. Your number one goal is to totally shut down their top laner. Your secondary goal is to shut down their mid. Run mid any time their top lane goes back, or any time you're pushed to near tower and can scare top off creeps. There are tons of cheesy tricks you can pull to threaten top and mid. You should also consider aggressively warding enemy jungle, so that you and your jungler can counterjungle if convenient.
I had some 1800+ games with jungle nunu. One getting stomped against one, one with him and him stomping, and two games where I stomp the enemy (unfortunately for the other team both times it was against a jungle alistar). Steal their big wraith at 1:40, take blue but not with smite. Steal their red with q+smite. Gank a lane. I start boots 3 pot, with my udyr runes (asp,armor,mr/lvl,movementspeed), and my amumu/rammus runes (0/21/9). Just build straight tank shit, philo, hog, kindlegem etc. CDR hp, since you have a free heal for all your ganks/jungling. He's pretty good now that they nerfed all the jungle camps hp, making autoing the small creeps after eating the big one a rather quick way to clear. With his movement speed and heal and slow he's a great candidate like udyr for an early oracles.
On March 30 2012 21:53 GhostOwl wrote: AD Tanky DPS nunu viable? If so, what items?
Bad idea, don't.
Well he has high base AD / tankyness, and he has a built-in super steroid with his W. How is it that bad?
You can if you want, no one stopping you but there is an issue about viability. None of Nunu's skills scale with AD. How is he going to be tanky when his Q has zero AP scaling? You'd literally be an autoattacker that has some slow. None of your abilities are going to do damage, so what DPS are we talking about?
Nunu has no ad scaling... His only DPS will come from his W-steroid. His ult makes him be in the middle of the fight and be focused down, when he ults he can't do his dps.
It's bad because he is not made to be tanky-dps.
Edit: I have to say tho, it can be fun to do this sometimes on your smurf or normals... just don't try to do this in ranked
Just do AP Nunu solo top. It's really really strong against some bruisers. He has infinite hp and his snowball has a crazy ratio. Especially if they have no proper CC or it's obvious engagement CC they just die. For example if you Nunu vs Irelia she can't really jump E you or you just ulti her and she's dead. I think people should experiment with that some more. Crazy buff for AD carry in the lategame.
In addition, he's one of the best carrydivers in the game. In teamfight flash -> snowball their AD and he's worthless.
I agree that building nunu as AD tanky dps is a bad idea. While it is true that his blood boil gives a very good steroid, you'd want to use it more to get in range for your ult with the extra MS. However if its blind pick and you find that the enemy has so much cc that you can never pull off a single ult, you might as well go ad which will most likely outdps a single ice ball.
I like playing against nunu support, but I don't really play against high level players so maybe this won't be true at high level. I usually counterpick him with ashe and harass all-day with frost arrow + 600 range if he comes near, he can't retaliate at all. When the enemy wants to force a fight we usually already have a big hp advantage.
Last time the opponent picked nunu against us, our last pick counterpicked him as fiddlestick support. They got zoned hard because they couldn't do anything against the hp drain.
Nunu support involves bloodboiling the AD carry and letting him do all the work in lane. He really just loafs around and use his spells reactionarily to enemy aggression or for gank assist. You AD carry should be the one doing the harassing and whatnot since he's the one with range, and your snowball just is there to discourage any form of retaliation. It's really strong but also pretty damn boring.
With speed advantage that tends not to be too much of an issue. Corki for instance has less range than ashe but he can still auto -> Q you easily if you are aiming to last hit. Nunu's there to help the disengage. Vayne's probably screwed. Graves doesn't care. Kogmaw also will be fine.
Start with consume and then level up the snowball for slows on ganks and max it first. Max Blood boil second. start with boots and a ward and hp pots, try to build philo and HoG quickly since nunu cant farm the jungle well.
Start from wolves-blue and then invade the enemy jungle, take either big wraith or bigger golem and ward the enemy red then gank the enemy jungler when hes taking the red and steal it.
On April 23 2012 11:58 AleKSei23 wrote: Again im sorry for bumping an old post, but then again im still looking for some info, and as always thanking tl.net community.
Still tryingo to get a hang on jungling what about Nunu? Skill order, common openings, items etc. Order of the creeps.
Sorry for asking such general question but OP is really really old so im not sure if im getting good advice or not
Item: Cloth Armor + 5x Pots to begin with. What you end up building at the end depends on the opposing team, but I typically go for something like the following:
Philosopher's Stone -> Merc/Ninja Boots -> Rylai's (if I am not fed, I would go for Hextech Resolver instead... but you DO need some AP) for core,
then tailor toward defense/health depending on who on the opposing team got fed. For the most part you will build some of the following: Randuin's Omen, Aegis, Abyssal Scepter, Zeke's, Frozen Heart, Thornmail, Force of Nature, Guardian Angel, Banshee's Veil. Again, depending on what you think you need.
For skills, go Q -> W -> E -> E -> E -> R -> E, after that follow R > E > W > Q.
For jungling path, I think you should go for wolf -> blue -> wraith -> golem -> red.
A few things that really help NuNu: Get your mid to clear the little wraiths for you (tell him he doesn't get blue if he can't do this for you). Lots of them will be happy to do it, you get to gank things faster, and everyone is happy. Get the enemy jungler (or enemy mid or even your mid) to clear the enemy's little wraiths for you. (You get the big one, of course.) This lets you counterjungle more easily and makes the enemy jungler mad, so everyone important is happy. Keep wards on the enemy's buffs and LEARN WHEN IT'S SAFE TO STEAL/CONTEST THEM. You particularly want to keep tabs on blue - if it's going to the enemy mid it's even easier to smitesteal. This is your most important job as Nunu and is the biggest thing you can do to make your midlaner's life easier. Drop a ward on their blue buff at about the 6:30 mark if the enemy jungler started blue. Practice your stealin' reflexes.
On April 23 2012 22:13 Tooplark wrote: A few things that really help NuNu: Get your mid to clear the little wraiths for you (tell him he doesn't get blue if he can't do this for you). Lots of them will be happy to do it, you get to gank things faster, and everyone is happy. Get the enemy jungler (or enemy mid or even your mid) to clear the enemy's little wraiths for you. (You get the big one, of course.) This lets you counterjungle more easily and makes the enemy jungler mad, so everyone important is happy. Keep wards on the enemy's buffs and LEARN WHEN IT'S SAFE TO STEAL/CONTEST THEM. You particularly want to keep tabs on blue - if it's going to the enemy mid it's even easier to smitesteal. This is your most important job as Nunu and is the biggest thing you can do to make your midlaner's life easier. Drop a ward on their blue buff at about the 6:30 mark if the enemy jungler started blue. Practice your stealin' reflexes.
Around level 1-2? Most AP cannot do that without taking significant damage.
Well, the idea is to consume the big one and then leave the three small wraiths up. Since nunu is slow as balls at clearing the small wraiths but is very fast at killing the big one, having someone like mid with an AoE spell clear the 3 small wraiths might be more efficient, though early levels, not really feasible because you'll waste too much mana and time doing it. After level 5~ish it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
After Philo and HoG and boots, what do you normally follow up with as support Nunu? Tried him out last night and got 3 kills in lane before the ten minute mark. I went and got Aegis next. Lane had snowballed at that point so I actually could afford a Catalyst. You can't always be in the situation but I was trying to think what my priorities would be if I got fed off assists. I was going for RoA in that game but maybe WotA? Had a Fiddle in jungle.
On April 27 2012 01:04 mordek wrote: After Philo and HoG and boots, what do you normally follow up with as support Nunu? Tried him out last night and got 3 kills in lane before the ten minute mark. I went and got Aegis next. Lane had snowballed at that point so I actually could afford a Catalyst. You can't always be in the situation but I was trying to think what my priorities would be if I got fed off assists. I was going for RoA in that game but maybe WotA? Had a Fiddle in jungle.
Reverie, aegis, zekes. It all depends on how the game progresses but you can't really go wrong with those 3 items. They're SO good, they boost your tankiness in team fights and provide plenty of utility for your team.
In all seriousness, I haven't played nunu as a jungler for over a year now because he's just so awful there. I feel like you have to take Flash or else you will never make it out alive if you get caught in their jungle, and Nunu is terrible at clearing his own jungle so he has to invade all the time. He is also probably one of the worst scaling champions in the game which basically forces him into a support role.
As a support he's pretty good. Consume for drag is p. nice and blood boil is OP. I feel like his utility though is heavily determined by the skill of the AD carry who can abuse blood boil. With an unknown AD I would prefer to play a herp derp support like Sona or Soraka.
Since I've hit plat playing almost exclusively jungle nunu I can tell people about anything. First runes, Attack speed reds, flat armor yellows, flat mr blues (since he's getting scaling mr/lvl base in the next patch), and movement speed quints. With a 0/21/9 build you hit flat 400 movement speed with boots 1. I start boots 3pot.
Steal their big wraith, or their big wolf if they invade your blue. Do blue without smiting, level snowball and steal their red. The build is normal 2 gp/10, starting either hog or philo doesn't matter. If you don't have blue, you'll only be snowballing when your passive gives you a free spell, but you can spam q and w as much as you want to clear the jungle.
You'll be building to shureliya's, merc treads and FH (prefering to hold that gp/10 as much as possible because you can't clear fast). Then you can build as you need. Skill order is r>e>w>q.
The most important part about nunu is knowing which junglers he beats, and which ones he loses to. Ban out anything you lose to, then proceed to outgank/objective the junglers you counter. Nunu straight loses to lee sin. Nunu goes about even with mundo (but because ganks produce more gold you'll be ahead compared to a farming mundo, and if mundo tries to gank you'll pull ahead because his ganks aren't that good). Nunu crushes any jungler that relies on movement speed and attack speed. Udyr, shyv, noct, alistar, jax, yi, shaco all lose hardcore to nunu, some more than others. Your job is to take damage (since your q heals), snowball people and w. Ult to phase or cc. With max cdr snowball is a permanent slow on the target of your choice, merc treads giving them about 3 seconds cc'd with 1.2 out. If anyone dives past you to get to your team, you ult, forcing them to either focus you, walk through the ult, or waste cc on you. Nunu is very gank heavy, and amazing counter ganker (considering how fast you move, over 450 movement speed pretty much everywhere).
Nunu's power comes from the fact that what you build, and his skills, are all after the fact cc. A 25% attack speed slow is always more powerful than a 25% attack speed increase. This means that nunu has natural scaling against teams as they get more items (very important), and it's why you see a support/tank jungler like maokai fall off so hard in the late game.
Jungle nunu has given me over 100 elo, and made me hit plat, so these aren't lucky or unskilled games by any margin. He beats all of the current common junglers, and is an excellent first pick because people will think you are supporting. Even if most junglers get ahead of nunu (which they very may will), they can't use their gold advantage because they have no way of getting to your team. The 65% movement slow keeps anything from engaging on you, but also makes you amazing at chasing.
100 1800 elo is worth a lot more to lower elo people, but I guess fear will keep people from playing him while I continue to get free elo (which I'm fine with).
the 'support nunu is weak in lane' argument is mostly void if you dont capitalize on that lane advantage to actually do something. if a nunu kog lane trades even farm against your graves+whatever, you're in for a pretty bad time later on assuming the kog's team has sufficient cover for him later on. maxed blood boil is seriously insane in terms of gold value and nunu provides pretty great distraction later on
You really have to play aggressive with Nunu support and utilize iceball harass and AS buff otherwise you will lose the lane and game. Can't really rely on Nunu ult to do anything, so he is pretty weak compared to other supports.
So, potential Nunu buff incoming with a reduced cooldown on Consume at all levels. Will this affect his viability in the jungle, or increase his toplane sustain to get occasionally picked as a counter/etc? Just watched Voyboy on AP Nunu get (silghtly) monstered by a Gangplank top in one of the featured games, heh.
There wasn't a whole lot of support Nunu play at MLG, as far as I can tell - only picked six times, three times by Nhat for TSM.Evo, twice by Pheilox for Fnatic, and once from TGF. Any reason why the drop in popularity? AFAIK the most common support picks for this tourney were Janna & Soraka (both of whom are kind've bad matchups for him), though there seemed to be a decent amount of Taric/Graves; I guess the classic Kog/Nunu combo doesn't work when all the Kog'Maws are AP. There's been a slight increase in AS-based tops/jungles (well, Jax/Nocturne), whom he'd be useful to debuff/peel, but OTOH there was a lot of Malphite picks to provide AS debuffs, possibly making him redundant.
I'm probably reaching here, but with the changes to Nunu, do you think there's such thing as a DRing jungle start for him? Maybe if you're playing a more aggressive style and constantly poking in with Snowball? The health is nothing to scoff at either, imo.
Probably not as strong as any other start, but just thinking of it.
On July 11 2012 04:45 Requizen wrote: I'm probably reaching here, but with the changes to Nunu, do you think there's such thing as a DRing jungle start for him? Maybe if you're playing a more aggressive style and constantly poking in with Snowball? The health is nothing to scoff at either, imo.
Probably not as strong as any other start, but just thinking of it.
What exactly are you trying to ask. Is it possible? Sure. You could start literally almost anything on jungle Nunu and it would be playable. Is it good? Probably not. What possible advantages could it have over any other start?
On July 11 2012 04:45 Requizen wrote: I'm probably reaching here, but with the changes to Nunu, do you think there's such thing as a DRing jungle start for him? Maybe if you're playing a more aggressive style and constantly poking in with Snowball? The health is nothing to scoff at either, imo.
Probably not as strong as any other start, but just thinking of it.
What exactly are you trying to ask. Is it possible? Sure. You could start literally almost anything on jungle Nunu and it would be playable. Is it good? Probably not. What possible advantages could it have over any other start?
Don't know, I'm just bored and spitballing. Stronger snowballs are nice for two reasons: since they are your only other damaging move aside from consume so it helps your clear, and it can let you semi-chunk a squishy lane when running in to gank. Plus, high health start which is nice against mixed damage teams. The Mp5 is kind of meh, since while farming you can abuse your passive to never run oom, but I guess it can help in ganks/skirmishes/teamfights where you're spamming W and E and use R.
It's probably not that good, but I'm just in a Nunu kind of mood.
With regard to the very small damage that you gain from AP on snowballs, they only help your clear speed insofar as they reduce the number of autoattacks it takes to kill a jungle minion. If such a breakpoint was attainable by the 15 AP from a DRing, then people would have figured it out by now and used runes to get that 15 AP.
As far as ganks, there's simply no start that can outweigh 50 extra base MS for ganking power.
So I've started playing nunu, just blind pick normals in jungle or top for now, and it's kinda fun.
I tend to do a lot better as jungler going for tank(-ish) than as Ap-heavy top though. It feels like building AP is really good for many lanes, but I just can't seem to make it work well after the laning phase.
Is this normal or am I doing it wrong? Compared to just about any other typical AP champ, the damage output from Nunu against multiple target seems very lackluster, simply because Q and W don't scale with AP, and E is single-target with significant cooldown. I rarely get any good ults off in team fights (though it's all the more satisfying when it does happen). e.g. I feel much stronger in team fights as Rumble or even Kennen, as far as sheer damage output is concerned.
Going for tank-ish builds seems much easier; the slow from E and buffs from W do not depend on AP, and being alive longer is useful because you can keep W and E up constantly. Also, the AP heal from consume isn't as useful in team fights because I can't always rely on having nearby minions to consume (in contrast to the laning phase).
I do want to play Nunu more; what are the typical builds that work for people?
For jungling, aspd runes seem great, and philo/hog make sense as they build into shurelyas/randuin's, both good items on Nunu (I think?). Beyond that, is RoA too late/expensive? I saw someone mention wit's end and wriggles, are those commonly built on Nunu? I can see wit's appeal more so than that of Wriggles; I typically have full health clears well into mid-game even with just boots. Wit's sounds good for the aspd (with Nunu's passive) and mres; lifesteal on wriggles doesn't sound as useful unless you build more AD.
I've still been running lifesteal quints, but that's because I was too lazy to change my Jax runepage. Move speed sounds like the best choice for jungling Nunu.
On July 11 2012 05:08 TheYango wrote: With regard to the very small damage that you gain from AP on snowballs, they only help your clear speed insofar as they reduce the number of autoattacks it takes to kill a jungle minion. If such a breakpoint was attainable by the 15 AP from a DRing, then people would have figured it out by now and used runes to get that 15 AP.
As far as ganks, there's simply no start that can outweigh 50 extra base MS for ganking power.
True, true, probably just one of those things that sounds better in my head than actually in practice.
the progames ive seen him jungle recently its been snowball first, blood boil last. and with triple gp5 into supp items so pretty standard as far as jungling goes.
Run flat CDR blues and quints, attackspeed reds. Boots -> SV -> revolver, then upgrade to wota if someone else on your team can use it; otherwise buy defensive items, particularly banshee's and ga. If you're doing really well, buy a mejai's huehuehue. Start enemy wraiths, then run top or mid. Don't take smite, you don't need it. And make sure to announce to your team that you're taking a solo, cos they'll assume you're jungling otherwise.
FDR blues and quints into SV, interesting, never thought of trying that before...
But is SV + revolver/WotA really worth it on AP Nunu?
You have a 1.0 ap ratio on Q's heal anyway, and E also scales with a 1.0 ratio. Is there any specific situation when you decide to go for spellvamp over pure ap items?
Unless you're having massive trouble sustaining yourself in lane, I'd have thought that building more AP helps you more than additional sustain from SV/Visage. And while CDR is nice, can you actually make use of it in lane? Even with the passive I usually have to watch my skill usage to avoid running out of mana.
On July 11 2012 09:22 bmn wrote: But is SV + revolver/WotA really worth it on AP Nunu?
You have a 1.0 ap ratio on Q's heal anyway, and E also scales with a 1.0 ratio. Is there any specific situation when you decide to go for spellvamp over pure ap items?
Buying revolver means you're spending 340g on spellvamp. This is 15 AP worth of gold - on a level 1 consume(which is presumably all you'll have in lane), 12% spell vamp is 4x as much healing as the AP would give you. That's super good value unless you're in some matchup where you don't need more than your baseline sustain.
Spirit visage I don't necessarily agree with as an early item - % healing and CDR are both multiplicative bonuses that are good on Nunu but better in midgame once you have high level snowball + other sources of AP and spell vamp.
Spirit Visage is a great early item. It's health and magic resist first, with bonus healing and cdr. If you're in a matchup where magic resist would be useful, you should 100% buy Spirit Visage.
I'm interested in Triforce nunu. Possibly from a top lane bild.
Furthermore, I saw a jungle nunu running onhiit (went something like vamp scep -> malady -> Madreds). I'm pretty sure the build is god awful, or at least ill conceived, but I haven't tried it out myself, so I thought I'd throw these couple ideas out there for improvement / critique.
Triforce just seems really alluring on top lane nunu, sheen proc from snowball or bloodboil, snowballing them means u def get to proc the sheen, and maybe phage as well, which is just gravy on top of your snowball. Undoubtedly it would have some problems come later game, and 'get triforce' isn't much of a build, so I'm not sure what else to put with it, tanky cdr i spose?
On July 12 2012 15:39 Seuss wrote: btw with a hard leash Nunu can hit level 3 with pretty much any Small Camp -> Buff -> Buff combo and be in a lane ganking by 2:55 game time.
I'd post a video but Sony Vegas is constantly crashing on startup.
This is what I've been doing and usually picking him vs mumu/malph/naut.
Wolves>blue>their red gank top or mid. If you're going too steal save smite and get a very good leash. If you don't get a good leash you might get caught. I know the window isn't very large like a few seconds, so the hard leash is vital.
0-21-9 full ms in both. Arp/as mixture. I haven't been going Cdr blues but will try it.
On July 11 2012 05:29 bmn wrote: So I've started playing nunu, just blind pick normals in jungle or top for now, and it's kinda fun.
I tend to do a lot better as jungler going for tank(-ish) than as Ap-heavy top though. It feels like building AP is really good for many lanes, but I just can't seem to make it work well after the laning phase.
Is this normal or am I doing it wrong? Compared to just about any other typical AP champ, the damage output from Nunu against multiple target seems very lackluster, simply because Q and W don't scale with AP, and E is single-target with significant cooldown. I rarely get any good ults off in team fights (though it's all the more satisfying when it does happen). e.g. I feel much stronger in team fights as Rumble or even Kennen, as far as sheer damage output is concerned.
Going for tank-ish builds seems much easier; the slow from E and buffs from W do not depend on AP, and being alive longer is useful because you can keep W and E up constantly. Also, the AP heal from consume isn't as useful in team fights because I can't always rely on having nearby minions to consume (in contrast to the laning phase).
I do want to play Nunu more; what are the typical builds that work for people?
For jungling, aspd runes seem great, and philo/hog make sense as they build into shurelyas/randuin's, both good items on Nunu (I think?). Beyond that, is RoA too late/expensive? I saw someone mention wit's end and wriggles, are those commonly built on Nunu? I can see wit's appeal more so than that of Wriggles; I typically have full health clears well into mid-game even with just boots. Wit's sounds good for the aspd (with Nunu's passive) and mres; lifesteal on wriggles doesn't sound as useful unless you build more AD.
I've still been running lifesteal quints, but that's because I was too lazy to change my Jax runepage. Move speed sounds like the best choice for jungling Nunu.
building AP Nunu is a bad idea. Tanky nunu does more damage and gives more utility, simply because he lives long enough. Suggested build: Philo(shurelya), heart of gold(randiuns), mercuries, frozen heart, aegis. End game/situational: force of nature, atmogs, sunfire cape, thornmail, banshee's veil. Game plan: stick to your carry/bruiser, give as much support as you can.
On July 12 2012 15:53 Sufficiency wrote: For CDR I think Shroud is better. Maybe it's just me. The extra armor obviously helps, too.
HURR YOU MEANT GLACIAL SHROUD I'M A GENIUS Yes glacial is a great item.
While AP Nunu is bad, picking up a few AP items, particularly supportish ones, is not a bad idea. If you don't already hit the CDR cap, you should strongly consider picking up a DFG or Morellos; Nunu's also one of the best candidates for an Abyssal Scepter or a WotA.
On July 12 2012 15:53 Sufficiency wrote: For CDR I think Shroud is better. Maybe it's just me. The extra armor obviously helps, too.
HURR YOU MEANT GLACIAL SHROUD I'M A GENIUS Yes glacial is a great item.
While AP Nunu is bad, picking up a few AP items, particularly supportish ones, is not a bad idea. If you don't already hit the CDR cap, you should strongly consider picking up a DFG or Morellos; Nunu's also one of the best candidates for an Abyssal Scepter or a WotA.
If you're looking at DFG, is Kage's a viable pick for support Nunu? Especially with the Philo/HoG nerfs coming.
On July 12 2012 15:53 Sufficiency wrote: For CDR I think Shroud is better. Maybe it's just me. The extra armor obviously helps, too.
HURR YOU MEANT GLACIAL SHROUD I'M A GENIUS Yes glacial is a great item.
While AP Nunu is bad, picking up a few AP items, particularly supportish ones, is not a bad idea. If you don't already hit the CDR cap, you should strongly consider picking up a DFG or Morellos; Nunu's also one of the best candidates for an Abyssal Scepter or a WotA.
If you're looking at DFG, is Kage's a viable pick for support Nunu? Especially with the Philo/HoG nerfs coming.
I dunno, since support is for chumps, but if you're winning your SOLO TOP LANE, then yes, Kage's is a great way to make up for the fact that you're zoning the other guy so hard that you're at his nexus tower and he's stuck in base. You can safely get it against anyone that you're really far ahead of, but if you think there's a chance the lane could turn around, then go for SV/Cata/Glacial -> WotA.
On July 12 2012 15:53 Sufficiency wrote: For CDR I think Shroud is better. Maybe it's just me. The extra armor obviously helps, too.
HURR YOU MEANT GLACIAL SHROUD I'M A GENIUS Yes glacial is a great item.
While AP Nunu is bad, picking up a few AP items, particularly supportish ones, is not a bad idea. If you don't already hit the CDR cap, you should strongly consider picking up a DFG or Morellos; Nunu's also one of the best candidates for an Abyssal Scepter or a WotA.
I been playing the shit out of top nunu and I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Unholy Grail and WotA are beast on Nunu. Slap on a glacial shroud and the enemy team better keep vision of baron at all times or you can solo that shit no problem.
Oh, I also discovered that if you're nunu vs. yorick, your team necessarily wins all poking engagements later in the game, as you can just frontline for your team and eat ghouls if yorick casts anything, which makes it impossible for the opposing team to get any damage to stick.
Honestly, if Nunu has creeps to nom, he withstands poking a lot harder than udyr does. Udyr gets a 200 point shield every 6 second base CD, whereas Nunu heals well over 500 every 8 seconds base CD (assuming 1 wota on your team, with double wota it's even stupider). The biggest problem is that if the opposing team doesn't have yorick, it's like, impossible to train your team to not instantly blow up every creep wave as it gets there.
When do you max Q on top nunu? Also you have to count the relative resist levels of a nunu versus an udyr typically it's gonig to be a lot more similar than you think although it's a shield not a heal.
On July 18 2012 00:32 Slayer91 wrote: When do you max Q on top nunu? Also you have to count the relative resist levels of a nunu versus an udyr typically it's gonig to be a lot more similar than you think although it's a shield not a heal.
Typically max Q after E, so by level 13, though I will max it first in certain lanes or if I'm getting camped. Also, Udyr will have slightly higher resists, but not by a ton, I'm typically looking at Frozen Heart, WotA, Unholy Grail as first 3 big ticket items followed by a negatron item with either mercs or tabi for boots. Off the same gold you're looking at like, Wit's + Randuins I guess, so that's an effective 75 extra armor from randuins if you're going balls out defensive spec on Udyr, but since we're talking on top of FH anyway, it's not as huge as it sounds I don't think. Also, nunu gets to participate in poking via iceballs while udyr has to sit back or full commit to Melee range to do anything offensive. *shrug*, just saying that a farmed Nunu is a defensive trump card in poking wars as long as he has consume targets.
Mogwai, do you also think AP nunu is flat-out bad, or can he be made to work post-laning phase? I guess you'd want to roam (or run teleport) to get fed early from ganks if you're going that route.
Incidentally, Nunu real good against Kennen top. Also real good if (like me) you tend to overlook approaching junglers; just E+W and run away npnp.
Do you always build athene's top or do you go FH first against AD bruisers?
nunu needs his resists to live. You can build dcap on top of grail/abyssal + FH/omen, but you do need big ticket defensive items if you want to be at all useful later on.
I guess there are probably stupider items you could build on him if you really tried... I mean, theoretically it makes some amount of sense, but in reality, you never hit enough gold for it to make sense. Wit's end may make sense as an MRes option in the 3rd/4th item slot, but MBR is still just too much gold for too little benefit on nunu.
Nunu gets all the gold he can in the laning phase and hopes to hit 3 items after his gold/10s. With these items you want Resists, CDR, enough mana to spam and enough AP/spell vamp to make your spells meaningful. If you know me, I'm a very firm believer in malleable builds that adapt to the situation at hand, but the items you need to properly fill Nunu's mid-late game niche are so specific that I build the exact same shit every game on him (boots, philo + pick, chalice, tabi/mercs, -> grail + FH + WotA).
On July 18 2012 00:32 Slayer91 wrote: When do you max Q on top nunu? Also you have to count the relative resist levels of a nunu versus an udyr typically it's gonig to be a lot more similar than you think although it's a shield not a heal.
Typically max Q after E, so by level 13, though I will max it first in certain lanes or if I'm getting camped. Also, Udyr will have slightly higher resists, but not by a ton, I'm typically looking at Frozen Heart, WotA, Unholy Grail as first 3 big ticket items followed by a negatron item with either mercs or tabi for boots. Off the same gold you're looking at like, Wit's + Randuins I guess, so that's an effective 75 extra armor from randuins if you're going balls out defensive spec on Udyr, but since we're talking on top of FH anyway, it's not as huge as it sounds I don't think. Also, nunu gets to participate in poking via iceballs while udyr has to sit back or full commit to Melee range to do anything offensive. *shrug*, just saying that a farmed Nunu is a defensive trump card in poking wars as long as he has consume targets.
I donno about Athene's though. By the time you get FH you shouldn't be having mana problems. If CDR is an issue, I will just get Morello's. It's cheap CDR/AP with a decent active.
On July 18 2012 00:32 Slayer91 wrote: When do you max Q on top nunu? Also you have to count the relative resist levels of a nunu versus an udyr typically it's gonig to be a lot more similar than you think although it's a shield not a heal.
Typically max Q after E, so by level 13, though I will max it first in certain lanes or if I'm getting camped. Also, Udyr will have slightly higher resists, but not by a ton, I'm typically looking at Frozen Heart, WotA, Unholy Grail as first 3 big ticket items followed by a negatron item with either mercs or tabi for boots. Off the same gold you're looking at like, Wit's + Randuins I guess, so that's an effective 75 extra armor from randuins if you're going balls out defensive spec on Udyr, but since we're talking on top of FH anyway, it's not as huge as it sounds I don't think. Also, nunu gets to participate in poking via iceballs while udyr has to sit back or full commit to Melee range to do anything offensive. *shrug*, just saying that a farmed Nunu is a defensive trump card in poking wars as long as he has consume targets.
I donno about Athene's though. By the time you get FH you shouldn't be having mana problems. If CDR is an issue, I will just get Morello's. It's cheap CDR/AP with a decent active.
People really need to stop telling me about how nunu doesn't have mana problems...
Grail was the missing piece that took my nunu from just another solo top nunu to king nunu. You guys don't need to believe me, but you can check my fucking history and see that it's 9 straight nunu wins, all with the same damn build that rushes grail and FH. The build is absurdly good and if you want to keep living in your world where you can't frontline during poking battles because you run yourself out of mana, go right ahead, but I'm trying to help here.
On July 18 2012 00:32 Slayer91 wrote: When do you max Q on top nunu? Also you have to count the relative resist levels of a nunu versus an udyr typically it's gonig to be a lot more similar than you think although it's a shield not a heal.
Typically max Q after E, so by level 13, though I will max it first in certain lanes or if I'm getting camped. Also, Udyr will have slightly higher resists, but not by a ton, I'm typically looking at Frozen Heart, WotA, Unholy Grail as first 3 big ticket items followed by a negatron item with either mercs or tabi for boots. Off the same gold you're looking at like, Wit's + Randuins I guess, so that's an effective 75 extra armor from randuins if you're going balls out defensive spec on Udyr, but since we're talking on top of FH anyway, it's not as huge as it sounds I don't think. Also, nunu gets to participate in poking via iceballs while udyr has to sit back or full commit to Melee range to do anything offensive. *shrug*, just saying that a farmed Nunu is a defensive trump card in poking wars as long as he has consume targets.
I donno about Athene's though. By the time you get FH you shouldn't be having mana problems. If CDR is an issue, I will just get Morello's. It's cheap CDR/AP with a decent active.
People really need to stop telling me about how nunu doesn't have mana problems...
Grail was the missing piece that took my nunu from just another solo top nunu to king nunu. You guys don't need to believe me, but you can check my fucking history and see that it's 9 straight nunu wins, all with the same damn build that rushes grail and FH. The build is absurdly good and if you want to keep living in your world where you can't frontline during poking battles because you run yourself out of mana, go right ahead, but I'm trying to help here.
Yeah morello's kinda bad, its like the ugly brother of dfg and athene.
Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
On July 18 2012 00:32 Slayer91 wrote: When do you max Q on top nunu? Also you have to count the relative resist levels of a nunu versus an udyr typically it's gonig to be a lot more similar than you think although it's a shield not a heal.
Typically max Q after E, so by level 13, though I will max it first in certain lanes or if I'm getting camped. Also, Udyr will have slightly higher resists, but not by a ton, I'm typically looking at Frozen Heart, WotA, Unholy Grail as first 3 big ticket items followed by a negatron item with either mercs or tabi for boots. Off the same gold you're looking at like, Wit's + Randuins I guess, so that's an effective 75 extra armor from randuins if you're going balls out defensive spec on Udyr, but since we're talking on top of FH anyway, it's not as huge as it sounds I don't think. Also, nunu gets to participate in poking via iceballs while udyr has to sit back or full commit to Melee range to do anything offensive. *shrug*, just saying that a farmed Nunu is a defensive trump card in poking wars as long as he has consume targets.
I donno about Athene's though. By the time you get FH you shouldn't be having mana problems. If CDR is an issue, I will just get Morello's. It's cheap CDR/AP with a decent active.
People really need to stop telling me about how nunu doesn't have mana problems...
Grail was the missing piece that took my nunu from just another solo top nunu to king nunu. You guys don't need to believe me, but you can check my fucking history and see that it's 9 straight nunu wins, all with the same damn build that rushes grail and FH. The build is absurdly good and if you want to keep living in your world where you can't frontline during poking battles because you run yourself out of mana, go right ahead, but I'm trying to help here.
Yeah morello's kinda bad, its like the ugly brother of dfg and athene.
It's cheap CDR with good AP. If you want Athene's, great, but there is a 700g difference here. Also Morello's has some mana regen too.
On July 27 2012 00:55 101toss wrote: Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
On July 27 2012 00:55 101toss wrote: Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
On July 27 2012 00:55 101toss wrote: Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
On July 27 2012 00:55 101toss wrote: Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
The thing is that I never get to 4th/5th item on nunu and when I do, it's typically selling off philo for a 2K-.2.5Kish item which is usually aegis, abyssal, or zeke's. I think MBR, Lichbane and Triforce are all reasonably good items on Nunu in theory, but you never hit the money for them. The realistic options for more damage on autos are gunblade (only if WotA really doesn't make sense for your team) since you're getting revolver anyway and Wit's End as a 4th item (haven't played with it yet, but it makes a good bit of sense if you need MRes and your team already has an aegis).
On July 27 2012 00:55 101toss wrote: Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
The thing is that I never get to 4th/5th item on nunu and when I do, it's typically selling off philo for a 2K-.2.5Kish item which is usually aegis, abyssal, or zeke's. I think MBR, Lichbane and Triforce are all reasonably good items on Nunu in theory, but you never hit the money for them. The realistic options for more damage on autos are gunblade (only if WotA really doesn't make sense for your team) since you're getting revolver anyway and Wit's End as a 4th item (haven't played with it yet, but it makes a good bit of sense if you need MRes and your team already has an aegis).
mbr does far more damage and is more efficient than wits, so as a last item it makes sense if you have magic pen.
On July 27 2012 00:55 101toss wrote: Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
The thing is that I never get to 4th/5th item on nunu and when I do, it's typically selling off philo for a 2K-.2.5Kish item which is usually aegis, abyssal, or zeke's. I think MBR, Lichbane and Triforce are all reasonably good items on Nunu in theory, but you never hit the money for them. The realistic options for more damage on autos are gunblade (only if WotA really doesn't make sense for your team) since you're getting revolver anyway and Wit's End as a 4th item (haven't played with it yet, but it makes a good bit of sense if you need MRes and your team already has an aegis).
mbr does far more damage and is more efficient than wits, so as a last item it makes sense if you have magic pen.
mbr is also far far far more expensive... not to mention 2/3 of mbr's components are relatively worthless on nunu. whereas wit's is cheap, and no part of it is worthless.
On July 27 2012 00:55 101toss wrote: Ok, so MBR is still shit (at least with the build you're running).
But how about sheen/lich (on your ap build) as a 5th/6th item? It's more mana, and more damage on CD while offering some mr/ms. It's pricey, but seems worth it imo
Edit: on morello's tome, you can use it as a counter to BV since the active pops spell shields
The thing is that I never get to 4th/5th item on nunu and when I do, it's typically selling off philo for a 2K-.2.5Kish item which is usually aegis, abyssal, or zeke's. I think MBR, Lichbane and Triforce are all reasonably good items on Nunu in theory, but you never hit the money for them. The realistic options for more damage on autos are gunblade (only if WotA really doesn't make sense for your team) since you're getting revolver anyway and Wit's End as a 4th item (haven't played with it yet, but it makes a good bit of sense if you need MRes and your team already has an aegis).
mbr does far more damage and is more efficient than wits, so as a last item it makes sense if you have magic pen.
you seem to be missing the point where I never have the money to complete it. Again, I have no problem with the theory behind MBR on Nunu, but in practice, I never have 3.8K to waste after my core and I see it as strictly inferior to Nunu's purpose as the rest of the core that I've put together.
How are you supposed to play AGAINST NunuTop? I've gotten crushed every time I've tried, as several characters - Riven, Kayle to name a few laners who I had previously considered "rather hard to lane counter"
Doesn't help that it's not obvious where nunu is going when he's picked.
On July 27 2012 02:31 sylverfyre wrote: How are you supposed to play AGAINST NunuTop? I've gotten crushed every time I've tried, as several characters - Riven, Kayle to name a few laners who I had previously considered "rather hard to lane counter"
Doesn't help that it's not obvious where nunu is going when he's picked.
You should faceroll him with shield maxing Riven, it's really frustrating as nunu.
Kayle gets hard countered by nunu, nothing you can do.
You can also sell your soul and start playing ramble.
On July 27 2012 02:31 sylverfyre wrote: How are you supposed to play AGAINST NunuTop? I've gotten crushed every time I've tried, as several characters - Riven, Kayle to name a few laners who I had previously considered "rather hard to lane counter"
Doesn't help that it's not obvious where nunu is going when he's picked.
You should faceroll him with shield maxing Riven, it's really frustrating as nunu.
Kayle gets hard countered by nunu, nothing you can do.
You can also sell your soul and start playing ramble.
It's k, ramble will be fixed soon and gandhi will lose the elos.
Unless, of course, he starts playing nunu top again (which, btw, we were theory crafting and figuring out 2 months ago, u 2 slow smash)
Neo and I were theorycrafting and testing solo top nunu since February, so yea, sorry, nope, you're still a ways behind us. We kinda gave up on it for a number of reasons, but Grail and the Nunu buffs were enough to get me back on the wagon and now I am king nunu.
On July 27 2012 02:31 sylverfyre wrote: How are you supposed to play AGAINST NunuTop? I've gotten crushed every time I've tried, as several characters - Riven, Kayle to name a few laners who I had previously considered "rather hard to lane counter"
Doesn't help that it's not obvious where nunu is going when he's picked.
You should faceroll him with shield maxing Riven, it's really frustrating as nunu.
Kayle gets hard countered by nunu, nothing you can do.
You can also sell your soul and start playing ramble.
Just keep putting points into shield until I'm ahead enough? I normally don't put more than like 2 points in the shield early, but that makes sense - absorb his mana-intensive harass and you're better at autos than he is, and can hop around to deal with being slowed.
On July 27 2012 03:11 EquilasH wrote: How early do you get the chalice against pure AD lanes, Smash?
depends how high their sustain is. if they have high sustain (riven, udyr, lee sin) or do a reasonable amount of magic damage (teemo, kayle, jax, udyr), I get it after ninja tabi, otherwise I get it after glacial shroud.
On July 27 2012 02:31 sylverfyre wrote: How are you supposed to play AGAINST NunuTop? I've gotten crushed every time I've tried, as several characters - Riven, Kayle to name a few laners who I had previously considered "rather hard to lane counter"
Doesn't help that it's not obvious where nunu is going when he's picked.
You should faceroll him with shield maxing Riven, it's really frustrating as nunu.
Kayle gets hard countered by nunu, nothing you can do.
You can also sell your soul and start playing ramble.
Just keep putting points into shield until I'm ahead enough? I normally don't put more than like 2 points in the shield early, but that makes sense - absorb his mana-intensive harass and you're better at autos than he is, and can hop around to deal with being slowed.
On July 27 2012 02:31 sylverfyre wrote: How are you supposed to play AGAINST NunuTop? I've gotten crushed every time I've tried, as several characters - Riven, Kayle to name a few laners who I had previously considered "rather hard to lane counter"
Doesn't help that it's not obvious where nunu is going when he's picked.
You should faceroll him with shield maxing Riven, it's really frustrating as nunu.
Kayle gets hard countered by nunu, nothing you can do.
You can also sell your soul and start playing ramble.
It's k, ramble will be fixed soon and gandhi will lose the elos.
Unless, of course, he starts playing nunu top again (which, btw, we were theory crafting and figuring out 2 months ago, u 2 slow smash)
lol that was more like 5 months ago. i used it in rank 5s and in the scrim vs navis team when we were spamming kogmaw games. nunu was op for the comp. also i wont lose elo from rumble nerf because i only played him in soloq once in the past 2 months gg.
hahaha, yea, especially since you frequently don't have to attack or anything, can just E, shift + 4, W, E, shift + 4 as you chase someone down and slowly kill them.
In the fourth game I tried to play Nunu top, I finally managed to. After the enemy team firstpicked Shen and I announced that I will play Nunu top, only 2 people asked if I'll be able to do well.(in the first 3 lobbies, the usual "omgtrollnoobuninstalldieincancer" guys told me to not do, so I didn't play him:'( ) Ended with 1/1/17, 1/0/4 and ~60 cs up after 15 mins. Smash's build works like a charm.
On July 27 2012 04:50 CeriseCherries wrote: wait so when you lane is it just hit creeps a lot and iceball whenever you can, q when you take damage?
what do you do in teamfights?
bloodboil your carry, ice ball their carry or their bruisers, charge ult after the initial cc exchange in an area that is advantageous for your team, find creeps to eat when you're low HP. The thing is, even if a fight ends with even exchanges, if your team still has nunu up, you get to take an objective because he's at full HP and no one else is because consume + max CDR + spellvamp is absurd.
speccing g/10 on your runes is greedy and dumb. You have two relevant 1:1 AP ratios and armor is crucial for laning. I go philo pick for items, but it's really really stupid to spec it beyond utility masteries in top lane IMO.
On July 27 2012 04:50 CeriseCherries wrote: wait so when you lane is it just hit creeps a lot and iceball whenever you can, q when you take damage?
what do you do in teamfights?
bloodboil your carry, ice ball their carry or their bruisers, charge ult after the initial cc exchange in an area that is advantageous for your team, find creeps to eat when you're low HP. The thing is, even if a fight ends with even exchanges, if your team still has nunu up, you get to take an objective because he's at full HP and no one else is because consume + max CDR + spellvamp is absurd.
yeah its funny how riot went on a massive nerf wave to get lifesteal items and sustainer champs under control. and then they buffed Nunus Q.
On July 27 2012 04:50 CeriseCherries wrote: wait so when you lane is it just hit creeps a lot and iceball whenever you can, q when you take damage?
what do you do in teamfights?
bloodboil your carry, ice ball their carry or their bruisers, charge ult after the initial cc exchange in an area that is advantageous for your team, find creeps to eat when you're low HP. The thing is, even if a fight ends with even exchanges, if your team still has nunu up, you get to take an objective because he's at full HP and no one else is because consume + max CDR + spellvamp is absurd.
yeah its funny how riot went on a massive nerf wave to get lifesteal items and sustainer champs under control. and then they buffed Nunus Q.
Not only that, Nunu is also an excellent distraction for the opposing team. When in team fight the other team is going after your AD carry, go start your ultimate. Not only does it slow them, the opposing team has to make a choice to either interrupt your ultimate (which is a potential CC on your AD carry used on you instead), take massive damage, or disperse and get kited by your AD carry.
The only thing that bothers me is that most people do not understand AP Nunu and wave clears way too fast... sometimes I don't get to Q and die
On July 27 2012 05:05 Mogwai wrote: MPen Reds Armor Yellows MRes Blues AP Quints
9/0/21 or 9/21/0, typically 9/0/21, but sometimes you gotta suck it up and run defensive masteries vs. rumble or yorick.
ignite/flash
Do you start boots/3? Then philo/pick into grail/fh/wota? Just trying to get a sense of the early game item order.
I recommend boots 3/4 depending on which side you are on and whether or not your jungler starts at red or blue (you want to Q first to help leashing, but doing so you won't get a 4th pot), with at least one blue pot. Go for Doran Ring x1 or 2 -> Revolver -> Glacial Shroud (assuming you are against an AD bruiser) -> WotA -> Frozen Heart for core. Mogwai seems to strongly prefer Athene's, but honestly I think Morello's or DFG is also fine (in general CDR is extremely strong on Nunu).
On July 27 2012 05:05 Mogwai wrote: MPen Reds Armor Yellows MRes Blues AP Quints
9/0/21 or 9/21/0, typically 9/0/21, but sometimes you gotta suck it up and run defensive masteries vs. rumble or yorick.
ignite/flash
Do you start boots/3? Then philo/pick into grail/fh/wota? Just trying to get a sense of the early game item order.
boots, 1 hp pot, 2 mana pots.
open Q and eat shit in opposing jangle (if blue, eat big wraith -> opposing small small gol) or your own small gols (if purple, to eat own small gols, hit big one twice, eat little one, then kite between hits on the big one to buy time for consume CD to eat it when it's back up, should leave you with like, -150-200 hp, but then you get to lane, chill out in a bush and then eat a creep to heal back up).
after boots -> philo pick, priorities vary from matchup to matchup, but it's typically boots 2 vs. chalice, then you get the other one, then you either get glacial or straight rush your grail, then you get FH and WotA as appropriate.
I wonder how smashs build and play style will work in lower elo ranges. I'm interested in trying it out, but games in lower Elo usually last a lot longer (albeit the cs scores are considerably worse). No idea if it will cause issue or not. I'll try out tomorrow and see for myself.
For a later game build (as games can often go 5 or 6 items at low elo) would you see yourself just doing philo into shurelias and Kage into dfg or whatever. As I'm asking this I'm realizing it really depends on how the game is going and team comps etc, main thing Im wondering is if ice ball stays relevant as a nuke with your usual build, or if it tapers off and just becomes a nice debuff. I spose like rabadons and void could work AT&T 5 and 6 for dmg, or ga omen bv fon for def
On July 27 2012 12:51 Dgiese wrote: I wonder how smashs build and play style will work in lower elo ranges. I'm interested in trying it out, but games in lower Elo usually last a lot longer (albeit the cs scores are considerably worse). No idea if it will cause issue or not. I'll try out tomorrow and see for myself.
For a later game build (as games can often go 5 or 6 items at low elo) would you see yourself just doing philo into shurelias and Kage into dfg or whatever. As I'm asking this I'm realizing it really depends on how the game is going and team comps etc, main thing Im wondering is if ice ball stays relevant as a nuke with your usual build, or if it tapers off and just becomes a nice debuff. I spose like rabadons and void could work AT&T 5 and 6 for dmg, or ga omen bv fon for def
I wouldn't buy anything with CDR on it because I'm already maxed with this build. I'd typically be looking at some combination of aegis, wit's, abyssal, dcap, hourglass, and void staff for those last items I guess.
On July 27 2012 13:18 Dgiese wrote: A'ight I'll bear that in mind. I don't spose nunu ult works with his ult like tf's ult used to. Man, that'd be insane if it did.
Man I hate autocorrect
it does not. you still have to be wise about ult usage to make it count. it's still the biggest beating in the game if you pull it off though.
im just sad that Nunu's probably going to get nerfed in the next patch :[ Nunu's exceeds pre-nerf Udyr in terms of sustain and general assholery in lane. Here's to hoping Riot doesn't overdo it.
Is Nunu in the same category as the terror tops like Malphite and Olaf? The two of them lose to pretty much no melee champs, and mages are the ones that destroy them the most. Just don't see how Nunu would do that well vs Kennen.
the build is really weak actually me and my friend tested it alot and the nunu top has problems vs champions that go top because sometimes if there is no jungle on other team you cant hold them off 1v2
On July 27 2012 16:18 taLbuk wrote: the build is really weak actually me and my friend tested it alot and the nunu top has problems vs champions that go top because sometimes if there is no jungle on other team you cant hold them off 1v2
The vast majority of champions are balanced around 1v1 top. 2v1 top is a completely different story from 1v1. 2v1, most people can reasonably expect to farm under tower at best.
On July 27 2012 16:18 taLbuk wrote: the build is really weak actually me and my friend tested it alot and the nunu top has problems vs champions that go top because sometimes if there is no jungle on other team you cant hold them off 1v2
Not only is it not relevant to talk about playing the game with no jungler on a team, nunu is probably the best champion to 2v1 because he has a huge heal that also gives him a cs. Next we'll see posts about how x champion isn't good because tri lane beats them.
On July 27 2012 16:18 taLbuk wrote: the build is really weak actually me and my friend tested it alot and the nunu top has problems vs champions that go top because sometimes if there is no jungle on other team you cant hold them off 1v2
two top is rather uncommen, even in normal games... and if so your jungler has to gank top more often which is always succesful because you have a higher level
On July 27 2012 16:18 taLbuk wrote: the build is really weak actually me and my friend tested it alot and the nunu top has problems vs champions that go top because sometimes if there is no jungle on other team you cant hold them off 1v2
Its not meant for 1v2'ing. Its assuming standard play, 1v1 top with jungles. Either way, not a lot of champions can do 1v2 with success.
On July 27 2012 16:15 Cloud9157 wrote: Is Nunu in the same category as the terror tops like Malphite and Olaf? The two of them lose to pretty much no melee champs, and mages are the ones that destroy them the most. Just don't see how Nunu would do that well vs Kennen.
On July 27 2012 16:18 taLbuk wrote: the build is really weak actually me and my friend tested it alot and the nunu top has problems vs champions that go top because sometimes if there is no jungle on other team you cant hold them off 1v2
We're talking beyond lvl 15 here -.-
Nunu solo is such a douche move man . That shit is so annoying to deal with, zzz.
Is Nunu still a valid choice against warwick? I got destroyed some weeks ago by Nunu and thought i'd counter the ww firstpick next time. Didn'tgo so well though. At the first levels, i was able to bully him a bit, but after lvl 6 his sustain beat my harass. Still don't understand how this worked. At first, i only wanted to harass when my passive stacks were up, so i probably didn't trade enough, then i was oom any time i was longer as a minute in lane. Guess your build counters that by building enough mana /manareg to just spam and whittle anyone down.
On July 27 2012 17:52 Broetchenholer wrote: Is Nunu still a valid choice against warwick? I got destroyed some weeks ago by Nunu and thought i'd counter the ww firstpick next time. Didn'tgo so well though. At the first levels, i was able to bully him a bit, but after lvl 6 his sustain beat my harass. Still don't understand how this worked. At first, i only wanted to harass when my passive stacks were up, so i probably didn't trade enough, then i was oom any time i was longer as a minute in lane. Guess your build counters that by building enough mana /manareg to just spam and whittle anyone down.
dont do long trades with ww, no one can win long trades against ww. mostly its about harassment with snowball. but both are heavy sustain laners so its hard to push either one out of lane
On July 27 2012 16:15 Cloud9157 wrote: Is Nunu in the same category as the terror tops like Malphite and Olaf? The two of them lose to pretty much no melee champs, and mages are the ones that destroy them the most. Just don't see how Nunu would do that well vs Kennen.
Nunu's the single strongest answer I've found to Kennen, Kayle and Teemo. All of them harass with chip damage and nunu simply wins all trades with E -> Q -> peace out, thereby controlling the exchanges and severly outsustaining them.
On July 27 2012 17:52 Broetchenholer wrote: Is Nunu still a valid choice against warwick? I got destroyed some weeks ago by Nunu and thought i'd counter the ww firstpick next time. Didn'tgo so well though. At the first levels, i was able to bully him a bit, but after lvl 6 his sustain beat my harass. Still don't understand how this worked. At first, i only wanted to harass when my passive stacks were up, so i probably didn't trade enough, then i was oom any time i was longer as a minute in lane. Guess your build counters that by building enough mana /manareg to just spam and whittle anyone down.
If WW doesn't get Chalice you can win the lane. If he does, it's a wash and whoever gets ganks wins the lane, but not by a ton. Pretty stupid matchup.
On July 27 2012 17:52 Broetchenholer wrote: Is Nunu still a valid choice against warwick? I got destroyed some weeks ago by Nunu and thought i'd counter the ww firstpick next time. Didn'tgo so well though. At the first levels, i was able to bully him a bit, but after lvl 6 his sustain beat my harass. Still don't understand how this worked. At first, i only wanted to harass when my passive stacks were up, so i probably didn't trade enough, then i was oom any time i was longer as a minute in lane. Guess your build counters that by building enough mana /manareg to just spam and whittle anyone down.
dont do long trades with ww, no one can win long trades against ww. mostly its about harassment with snowball. but both are heavy sustain laners so its hard to push either one out of lane
Warwick's sustain also is just as mana intensive as your harass. If you get that chalice and he doesn't, you'll win the battle of mana regen pretty convincingly. If you both get chalice, it's significantly more useful for you later in the game than it is for him. Lane might turn into farmfest this way, try not to let him initiate for a jungle gank with his ulti, though.
Nunu is much more valuable on lower amounts of farm too, so if you make it a stupid farmfest without kills on either side, that's typically a win for your team, but the laning phase is REALLY boring.
On July 27 2012 16:15 Cloud9157 wrote: Is Nunu in the same category as the terror tops like Malphite and Olaf? The two of them lose to pretty much no melee champs, and mages are the ones that destroy them the most. Just don't see how Nunu would do that well vs Kennen.
Nunu's the single strongest answer I've found to Kennen, Kayle and Teemo. All of them harass with chip damage and nunu simply wins all trades with E -> Q -> peace out, thereby controlling the exchanges and severly outsustaining them.
Yeah, I've been very surprised to find that Nunu does really well against Kennen, to the point where I'd actually look forward to face Kennen (which I can't say of many other heroes). Kennen's q is blocked by minions and a skillshot, your e has neither of those limitations. If he misses a q or tries to AA you, chunk him with e and he'll have to back off -- he can't trade AAs with you because you'll just heal your damage back whenever you want.
I've had trouble dealing with GP yesterday -- he opened wriggles and boots of lucidity, and he rarely seemed to AA, focusing on being a jerk with his parley instead. I narrowly lost the first exchange (I was OOM before him) and he managed to zone me for a bit; he later won fights by saving his ult until I was committed to a 1v1. Parley + oranges seemed to beat my e+q in sustained trades in terms of mana efficiency (and cooldowns).
Would you go glacial before Athene's in situations like these? I'm not sure how the CDR+mana reg compare to armor+flat mana, but I'd intuitively think that the armor matters more here.
sorta. level Q as you need it. If you get behind from ganks, just power level Q to assure your farm and wait until grail to try to exert lane dominance. But yea, general plan is a point in W around level 4 or 8 and then E > Q > W.
this is a good build and nunu is a good top but i wouldn't be worried about him getting nerfed any time soon nunu has 7 stat-abilities that don't scale at all with farm - the damage on his Q (not technically true, but it does no damage to other champs so i'm counting it), the attack speed buff on his W, the movespeed buff on his W, the attack speed slow on his E, the movespeed slow on his E, and the stats debuff on his ult (same as his E).
so essentially by getting farm, you improve: the heal on your Q, the damage on your E, and the damage on your ult
when you compare all the things that nunu does without farm (the first list) compared to what he does WITH farm (the second list), i think it's pretty logical to see that he won't become a fotm/competitive top laner. unless his laning is so incredibly dominant that he completely shuts out other laners, the benefit just simply isn't enough for a real team to put him top.
so while this is going to be a great solo queue build and you should abuse it while you can, i don't see riot nerfing what is essentially a glorified support hero, when his bot lane placement is a lot more limited than other popular supports
On July 28 2012 04:04 gtrsrs wrote: this is a good build and nunu is a good top but i wouldn't be worried about him getting nerfed any time soon nunu has 7 stat-abilities that don't scale at all with farm - the damage on his Q (not technically true, but it does no damage to other champs so i'm counting it), the attack speed buff on his W, the movespeed buff on his W, the attack speed slow on his E, the movespeed slow on his E, and the stats debuff on his ult (same as his E).
so essentially by getting farm, you improve: the heal on your Q, the damage on your E, and the damage on your ult
when you compare all the things that nunu does without farm (the first list) compared to what he does WITH farm (the second list), i think it's pretty logical to see that he won't become a fotm/competitive top laner. unless his laning is so incredibly dominant that he completely shuts out other laners, the benefit just simply isn't enough for a real team to put him top.
so while this is going to be a great solo queue build and you should abuse it while you can, i don't see riot nerfing what is essentially a glorified support hero, when his bot lane placement is a lot more limited than other popular supports
It would be a pretty crusher top lane to put in a Protect-the-koggles comp though.
Just read the posts. Boots/3 -> Pick/Philo -> Chalice/Glacial/Revolver -> WotA/FH/Grail. Get the three base in whatever order and build them to full in whatever order.
As far as late game goes, what do you all think about making Pick into DFG? DFG use + Snowball real terror burst late game.
DFG isn't really a priority. Noonoo is not meant to me a burst AP. If you manage to get into late game and farmed enough to buy a DFG, sure. But their are better items you ought to be getting first.
On July 28 2012 04:04 gtrsrs wrote: this is a good build and nunu is a good top but i wouldn't be worried about him getting nerfed any time soon nunu has 7 stat-abilities that don't scale at all with farm - the damage on his Q (not technically true, but it does no damage to other champs so i'm counting it), the attack speed buff on his W, the movespeed buff on his W, the attack speed slow on his E, the movespeed slow on his E, and the stats debuff on his ult (same as his E).
so essentially by getting farm, you improve: the heal on your Q, the damage on your E, and the damage on your ult
when you compare all the things that nunu does without farm (the first list) compared to what he does WITH farm (the second list), i think it's pretty logical to see that he won't become a fotm/competitive top laner. unless his laning is so incredibly dominant that he completely shuts out other laners, the benefit just simply isn't enough for a real team to put him top.
so while this is going to be a great solo queue build and you should abuse it while you can, i don't see riot nerfing what is essentially a glorified support hero, when his bot lane placement is a lot more limited than other popular supports
You discount any item that doesn't provide AP as worthless, why? Mogwai isn't suggesting building pure AP Nunu.
Pretty much nobody other than Galio/Malphite have skills that scale in damage output with the stats provided by a Guardian Angel, but it's still a useful item. A top lane nunu can afford far more survivability items (and also more AP) than a support Nunu ever will. None of Nunu's skills scale in any unique way with the stats that Frozen Heart provides, but it's still an item that makes Nunu much stronger.
(As somewhat different example, Trist doesn't have *any* skills that scale with AD, AFAICT, but she's still a viable bot lane AD carry. Ratios don't say everything about a hero.)
On July 27 2012 16:15 Cloud9157 wrote: Is Nunu in the same category as the terror tops like Malphite and Olaf? The two of them lose to pretty much no melee champs, and mages are the ones that destroy them the most. Just don't see how Nunu would do that well vs Kennen.
Nunu's the single strongest answer I've found to Kennen, Kayle and Teemo. All of them harass with chip damage and nunu simply wins all trades with E -> Q -> peace out, thereby controlling the exchanges and severly outsustaining them.
On July 27 2012 17:52 Broetchenholer wrote: Is Nunu still a valid choice against warwick? I got destroyed some weeks ago by Nunu and thought i'd counter the ww firstpick next time. Didn'tgo so well though. At the first levels, i was able to bully him a bit, but after lvl 6 his sustain beat my harass. Still don't understand how this worked. At first, i only wanted to harass when my passive stacks were up, so i probably didn't trade enough, then i was oom any time i was longer as a minute in lane. Guess your build counters that by building enough mana /manareg to just spam and whittle anyone down.
If WW doesn't get Chalice you can win the lane. If he does, it's a wash and whoever gets ganks wins the lane, but not by a ton. Pretty stupid matchup.
Very interesting. Kennen running an MR page wouldn't be much more of a concern I'm assuming? I run a page for the times I face other APs top as Kennen that lets me come to lane with 55 mr myself. After revolver I usually grab a negatron for an abyssal later on.
I think the thing that would kill Kennen the most is Nunu's iceball. Damn thing has no CD and hurts like hell at later ranks. His sustain is also retarded strong too. Blegh, just a really lame champion to face top with everyone.
On July 28 2012 04:04 gtrsrs wrote: this is a good build and nunu is a good top but i wouldn't be worried about him getting nerfed any time soon nunu has 7 stat-abilities that don't scale at all with farm - the damage on his Q (not technically true, but it does no damage to other champs so i'm counting it), the attack speed buff on his W, the movespeed buff on his W, the attack speed slow on his E, the movespeed slow on his E, and the stats debuff on his ult (same as his E).
so essentially by getting farm, you improve: the heal on your Q, the damage on your E, and the damage on your ult
when you compare all the things that nunu does without farm (the first list) compared to what he does WITH farm (the second list), i think it's pretty logical to see that he won't become a fotm/competitive top laner. unless his laning is so incredibly dominant that he completely shuts out other laners, the benefit just simply isn't enough for a real team to put him top.
so while this is going to be a great solo queue build and you should abuse it while you can, i don't see riot nerfing what is essentially a glorified support hero, when his bot lane placement is a lot more limited than other popular supports
You discount any item that doesn't provide AP as worthless, why? Mogwai isn't suggesting building pure AP Nunu.
Pretty much nobody other than Galio/Malphite have skills that scale in damage output with the stats provided by a Guardian Angel, but it's still a useful item. A top lane nunu can afford far more survivability items (and also more AP) than a support Nunu ever will. None of Nunu's skills scale in any unique way with the stats that Frozen Heart provides, but it's still an item that makes Nunu much stronger.
(As somewhat different example, Trist doesn't have *any* skills that scale with AD, AFAICT, but she's still a viable bot lane AD carry. Ratios don't say everything about a hero.)
Well I think Trist is a rather bad example because of her massive attack speed steroid. But anyway, I think I agree with the sentiment that you can't just look at the item-scaling of a champion's abilities to determine whether it's competitive. For example, if Nautilus's AP ratios were completely removed I don't think that would really affect how competitive of a pick he is. Not that Nunu and Nautilus have comparable kits, but Nunu can still benefit from items in ways other than his AP ratios.
On July 28 2012 07:35 goldenkrnboi wrote: question though. why ignite/flash? are you supposed to be looking for kills as nunu top? :O
You will get kills as nunu top. You will whittle them down, and if they stay round you can poke them until diving range with e. Maybe something like a TP might work... but that's taking away from the focus of shutting down your lane. Ghost isnt really necessary with W.
So I finally got to try out my first game of nunu top with smash's build. It totally wrecks. Had a teammate trash talking me all through champ select for first picking nunu top... oh well, carry him anyway. Got camped lvl 1 by for jax... managed to not die and not lose too much HP, once noct left I started raining snowballs down on jax, he got fed up with the harass and tried to all in me.... which failed miserably as I had q up and a few hundred hp on him. Fast forward 15 mins, jax 15 cs, me 115 and another kill.
I'm guessin nunu is just really good against jax, but god damn, it felt insanely powerful. Trade trade trade, back up, q, full hp while they are on half. Mp pots are really helpful for starting items, as smash suggests, boots 1 hp 2mp. the mana from the pots lets you q, which heals you more than an hp pot anyway. I followed the build to the letter, although I felt like I didn't really need the revolver (although I'd probably feel differently if the lane was at all close).
Also, the playstyle and mindset that smash described, it just wrecks. Pretty much any engagement can be disengaged from, and then nunu heals back up to full instantly while the other team are stuck low HP and can't respond to whatever you feel like doing.
Next thing I wanna try out is soloing baron / duoing baron with jungle relatively near the 15 min mark.
On July 28 2012 04:04 gtrsrs wrote: this is a good build and nunu is a good top but i wouldn't be worried about him getting nerfed any time soon nunu has 7 stat-abilities that don't scale at all with farm - the damage on his Q (not technically true, but it does no damage to other champs so i'm counting it), the attack speed buff on his W, the movespeed buff on his W, the attack speed slow on his E, the movespeed slow on his E, and the stats debuff on his ult (same as his E).
so essentially by getting farm, you improve: the heal on your Q, the damage on your E, and the damage on your ult
when you compare all the things that nunu does without farm (the first list) compared to what he does WITH farm (the second list), i think it's pretty logical to see that he won't become a fotm/competitive top laner. unless his laning is so incredibly dominant that he completely shuts out other laners, the benefit just simply isn't enough for a real team to put him top.
so while this is going to be a great solo queue build and you should abuse it while you can, i don't see riot nerfing what is essentially a glorified support hero, when his bot lane placement is a lot more limited than other popular supports
You discount any item that doesn't provide AP as worthless, why? Mogwai isn't suggesting building pure AP Nunu.
Pretty much nobody other than Galio/Malphite have skills that scale in damage output with the stats provided by a Guardian Angel, but it's still a useful item. A top lane nunu can afford far more survivability items (and also more AP) than a support Nunu ever will. None of Nunu's skills scale in any unique way with the stats that Frozen Heart provides, but it's still an item that makes Nunu much stronger.
(As somewhat different example, Trist doesn't have *any* skills that scale with AD, AFAICT, but she's still a viable bot lane AD carry. Ratios don't say everything about a hero.)
as with most people in most arguments on this forum, you're trying to compare 2 things but you're doing them poorly and in an illogical way
i was trying to compare nunu WITH farm, to nunu WITHOUT farm
you seem to be comparing nunu without farm to tristana without farm or something. do i even need to go into this? tristana has one major advantage over nunu that she also has over any other melee champ in the game... range. she doesn't need *skills* that scale off AD because her main *skill* is her passive - immense auto range. no AD in the game relies on skills lategame except for repositioning or peeling.
the whole point of my post was directed at people that think nunu is going to get nerfed now because he's *too strong.* yes, he's a strong laner, even a very strong laner. yes, past early-game he does his intended job (protects his own carry) just as well when farmed as when underfarmed. my point is to go forth, use this build, don't worry about it becoming fotm, nunu's not going to be getting significant nerfs.
On July 28 2012 04:04 gtrsrs wrote: this is a good build and nunu is a good top but i wouldn't be worried about him getting nerfed any time soon nunu has 7 stat-abilities that don't scale at all with farm - the damage on his Q (not technically true, but it does no damage to other champs so i'm counting it), the attack speed buff on his W, the movespeed buff on his W, the attack speed slow on his E, the movespeed slow on his E, and the stats debuff on his ult (same as his E).
so essentially by getting farm, you improve: the heal on your Q, the damage on your E, and the damage on your ult
when you compare all the things that nunu does without farm (the first list) compared to what he does WITH farm (the second list), i think it's pretty logical to see that he won't become a fotm/competitive top laner. unless his laning is so incredibly dominant that he completely shuts out other laners, the benefit just simply isn't enough for a real team to put him top.
so while this is going to be a great solo queue build and you should abuse it while you can, i don't see riot nerfing what is essentially a glorified support hero, when his bot lane placement is a lot more limited than other popular supports
You discount any item that doesn't provide AP as worthless, why? Mogwai isn't suggesting building pure AP Nunu.
Pretty much nobody other than Galio/Malphite have skills that scale in damage output with the stats provided by a Guardian Angel, but it's still a useful item. A top lane nunu can afford far more survivability items (and also more AP) than a support Nunu ever will. None of Nunu's skills scale in any unique way with the stats that Frozen Heart provides, but it's still an item that makes Nunu much stronger.
(As somewhat different example, Trist doesn't have *any* skills that scale with AD, AFAICT, but she's still a viable bot lane AD carry. Ratios don't say everything about a hero.)
as with most people in most arguments on this forum, you're trying to compare 2 things but you're doing them poorly and in an illogical way
i was trying to compare nunu WITH farm, to nunu WITHOUT farm
you seem to be comparing nunu without farm to tristana without farm or something. do i even need to go into this? tristana has one major advantage over nunu that she also has over any other melee champ in the game... range. she doesn't need *skills* that scale off AD because her main *skill* is her passive - immense auto range. no AD in the game relies on skills lategame except for repositioning or peeling.
the whole point of my post was directed at people that think nunu is going to get nerfed now because he's *too strong.* yes, he's a strong laner, even a very strong laner. yes, past early-game he does his intended job (protects his own carry) just as well when farmed as when underfarmed. my point is to go forth, use this build, don't worry about it becoming fotm, nunu's not going to be getting significant nerfs.
I think Nunu's going to get nerfed because he exhibits all the telltale signs of laning Riot hates. Extreme sustain and practically free harass. Every time there's a champion like that, Riot whacks it with the nerf bat. Nunu's level of sustain and harass is on par or surpasses pre-nerf Udyr.
Been playing lots of top Nunu (and one mid Nunu), overall it does feel pretty strong and I felt very powerful lategame no matter how laning went.
Some problems I ran into: -Darius. I probably misplayed it but with the E ranges being the same you can't really harass + he can force a trade when you CS. Post-6 there's a pretty big threat of him one-comboing you with Ignite to mitigate Consume. -Rumble. Fuck that guy. Shield to absord snowballs, Flamespitter to shove me to tower, and a very strong all-in that's hard to avoid. -No wave clear and no AD makes me end up with garbage CS relative to me playing other top laners. What do I do when there are 10+ minions pushing to my tower and there's somewhere else I need to be in the immediate future?
On July 28 2012 11:28 Sufficiency wrote: I always feel that Nunu is weak against ranged champion though, because you can't get free hits on minions for passive stacks... maybe it's just me.
Nunu hard counters Kayle and Nidalee and does quite well against kennen. It's hard to outtrade the snowball and you sustain so hard with your own Q.
I've decided that WW is going to be my "counter" to nunu tops for now - you can trade Q for snowball fine, but yes you'll need chalice or ideally philo+chalice. (build to match his gp10s and neither of you will EVER DIE.) You'll probably end up farming a lot under tower a lot, and missing CS because you have like 0.2 AS when he snowballs you, but you won't die, and when he pushes you the threat of ganks against him (especially laneganks) is high because you hold him down with your Ulti while the jungler approaches. He also can't slow BOTH of you.
My Anti-nunu Warwick Item order went something like: Early - Boots, Philo, Chalice, HoG Mid - Merc Treads, Glacial, Wit's end Late - FH, Shurelia, whatever else (you want these two for CDR cap)
You end up serving much the same role late game as nunu - AS buff for team, Super-sustain damage sponge during poke wars, and neutralize the enemy carry.
-No wave clear and no AD makes me end up with garbage CS relative to me playing other top laners. What do I do when there are 10+ minions pushing to my tower and there's somewhere else I need to be in the immediate future?
On July 28 2012 11:54 Alzadar wrote: Been playing lots of top Nunu (and one mid Nunu), overall it does feel pretty strong and I felt very powerful lategame no matter how laning went.
Some problems I ran into: -Darius. I probably misplayed it but with the E ranges being the same you can't really harass + he can force a trade when you CS. Post-6 there's a pretty big threat of him one-comboing you with Ignite to mitigate Consume. -Rumble. Fuck that guy. Shield to absord snowballs, Flamespitter to shove me to tower, and a very strong all-in that's hard to avoid. -No wave clear and no AD makes me end up with garbage CS relative to me playing other top laners. What do I do when there are 10+ minions pushing to my tower and there's somewhere else I need to be in the immediate future?
You do have a wave clear, it's your ultimate. Use with care.
On July 28 2012 07:35 goldenkrnboi wrote: question though. why ignite/flash? are you supposed to be looking for kills as nunu top? :O
Last Nunu top I played, I was 9-2-10. Totally carried my team. I expect him to get nerfed... way too OP at the moment.
Like everyone this thread is making me extremely curious. I laned the new build first time last night, vs darius. I felt I played the matchup pretty poorly, a number of mistakes I made:
- Tried to trade with autos... I'm now convinced this is wrong, I should have leaned on iceball 100%. - Built a pick. - Revolver way late. This should have been a priority.
Ultimately he died to ganks but still ended up ahead on CS because his lane presence was just so dominant. The fact I wasn't crushing even though he was getting camped pretty much meant our other lanes got screwed for nothing. I'm not sure I like the idea of nunu in matchups where just trading an auto is really dangerous. I'm inclined to think I would have come out ahead if I'd known how to play the matchup but it seems like you really need to obliterate your lane with snowball cheese for this to be worth it.
Thanks smash, this is great. Nunu was the first champ I really played starting at lvl 14 all the way up until his massive nerfs in season one.
Man this build really does wreck. My only game so far was against rumble. Thought damn, one of the tough lanes smash was talking about np. I got forced back early of course, but had enough for philo, ward, and a mana pot. As soon as I got back, I was able to force him back and even the lane out again. More farming and trading and finally got forced back again. Picked up pick/chalice and some wards and bam I was in complete control now even with his revolver. Rumble would try to trade and I'd just run, then snowball when shield was down and Q up dat health. Ended up freezing the lane at my tower and making rumble take their jungle from riven to attempt to keep up. All 3 of my ganks by olaf got counter ganked by Riven. All 3 of them ended very badly for riven and rumble. I died only once in the 3 ganks, but olaf got 4 kills out of them and riven died every single time.
Went straight for Grail and just dominated from there.
Rumble was like 50 cs behind at that time. Picked up Shroud next into FH and where rumble was so far behind we killed it in team fights. I ended with mercs/philo/grail/fh/pick and rumble had mercs/revolver/rylai at 30 minutes...... mission accomplished.
On July 28 2012 13:14 UniversalSnip wrote: Like everyone this thread is making me extremely curious. I laned the new build first time last night, vs darius. I felt I played the matchup pretty poorly, a number of mistakes I made:
- Tried to trade with autos... I'm now convinced this is wrong, I should have leaned on iceball 100%. - Built a pick. - Revolver way late. This should have been a priority.
Ultimately he died to ganks but still ended up ahead on CS because his lane presence was just so dominant. The fact I wasn't crushing even though he was getting camped pretty much meant our other lanes got screwed for nothing. I'm not sure I like the idea of nunu in matchups where just trading an auto is really dangerous. I'm inclined to think I would have come out ahead if I'd known how to play the matchup but it seems like you really need to obliterate your lane with snowball cheese for this to be worth it.
Trading with autoattacks is fine, trading while he has 5 stacks on you is NOT fine.
I think you should forego Kage's and focusing on getting Revolver + Glacial Shroud first. GP10 is useless if you can barely stand in your lane... this is especially true for Nunu who is a snowballry laner - his sustain requires him to be near enemy minions; if he gets zoned, he gets zoned HARD. Since you do so little damage yourself, if you are behind, it's difficult to come back (you + jungler typically will have a hard time killing the opposing laner if he is already ahead).
On July 28 2012 13:14 UniversalSnip wrote: Like everyone this thread is making me extremely curious. I laned the new build first time last night, vs darius. I felt I played the matchup pretty poorly, a number of mistakes I made:
- Tried to trade with autos... I'm now convinced this is wrong, I should have leaned on iceball 100%. - Built a pick. - Revolver way late. This should have been a priority.
Ultimately he died to ganks but still ended up ahead on CS because his lane presence was just so dominant. The fact I wasn't crushing even though he was getting camped pretty much meant our other lanes got screwed for nothing. I'm not sure I like the idea of nunu in matchups where just trading an auto is really dangerous. I'm inclined to think I would have come out ahead if I'd known how to play the matchup but it seems like you really need to obliterate your lane with snowball cheese for this to be worth it.
Trading with autoattacks is fine, trading while he has 5 stacks on you is NOT fine.
I think you should forego Kage's and focusing on getting Revolver + Glacial Shroud first. GP10 is useless if you can barely stand in your lane... this is especially true for Nunu who is a snowballry laner - his sustain requires him to be near enemy minions; if he gets zoned, he gets zoned HARD. Since you do so little damage yourself, if you are behind, it's difficult to come back (you + jungler typically will have a hard time killing the opposing laner if he is already ahead).
Also abuse the fact that grab is like 20 second CD, while snowball is... not. You don't have to trade autos, but you might as well (even 1 point in blood boil, plus the MASSIVE AS slow you're giving them, means that you should be ok with giving them 2 autos, taking like 1, and backing off before your slow wears off)
I think the most satisfying part of nunu is not being a dick in top lane. Nor is it the satisfaction of knowing that you're the most immovable prick in the world. It's the ability to EMPIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!! and kill the enemy laner in a single combo.
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
You having 70% winrate for Nunu is VERY DIFFERENT from the server having 65% winrate for Rumble though. I have 100% winrate for Soraka, Soraka is OP, right? Oh wait, I only played one game with Soraka...
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
You having 70% winrate for Nunu is VERY DIFFERENT from the server having 65% winrate for Rumble though. I have 100% winrate for Soraka, Soraka is OP, right? Oh wait, I only played one game with Soraka...
snk's been advocating nunu since before his most recent buffs. he has a lot of nunu games played
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
The buffs were pretty much just QoL, but that does count for a lot IMHO. The clunkier parts of Nunu were smoothed out nicely with this patch and it does feel a lot better than before. Might not be a huge deal in the jungle, but in lane he's definitely noticeably better (though I can't tell exactly how much of it was figuring out grail vs. the buffs since both were integral parts of my nunu game leveling up).
Hm, just lost against a Teemo. Well, "lost". I went 1-5-2 and he only died twice, but I was camped all game long by an Eve that came something like 8-9 times in 20 minutes, but I would have probably crushed him without that (fail on my part when I didn't rush mercs to catch up since his Q range > Iceball, and he wasn't that good at last hitting, but it's comforting to know that Nunu can do well against teh midget).
On July 28 2012 11:52 Ryuu314 wrote: I think Nunu's going to get nerfed because he exhibits all the telltale signs of laning Riot hates. Extreme sustain and practically free harass. Every time there's a champion like that, Riot whacks it with the nerf bat. Nunu's level of sustain and harass is on par or surpasses pre-nerf Udyr.
Pretty much this.
It doesn't even matter how good the champion is. If the kit is skewed in a way that Riot doesn't like the gameplay it creates, they'll nerf the hero. This is somewhat sensible, and somewhat silly at the same time. On the one hand, nerfing the hero makes it so people are less likely to play him, and therefore the problems with him creating "unfun" gameplay are avoided by virtue of them not getting played. On the other hand, because nobody's playing the hero, it's hard to get a good grasp on how to FIX the hero with no data to work with.
Though I think Riot's figured out the way to get around this by giving cursory QoL buffs to get people to play those heroes that they want more gameplay data on.
On July 28 2012 11:52 Ryuu314 wrote: I think Nunu's going to get nerfed because he exhibits all the telltale signs of laning Riot hates. Extreme sustain and practically free harass. Every time there's a champion like that, Riot whacks it with the nerf bat. Nunu's level of sustain and harass is on par or surpasses pre-nerf Udyr.
Pretty much this.
It doesn't even matter how good the champion is. If the kit is skewed in a way that Riot doesn't like the gameplay it creates, they'll nerf the hero. This is somewhat sensible, and somewhat silly at the same time. On the one hand, nerfing the hero makes it so people are less likely to play him, and therefore the problems with him creating "unfun" gameplay are avoided by virtue of them not getting played. On the other hand, because nobody's playing the hero, it's hard to get a good grasp on how to FIX the hero with no data to work with.
Though I think Riot's figured out the way to get around this by giving cursory QoL buffs to get people to play those heroes that they want more gameplay data on.
Right.
Right now Nunu is brain-dead laning. The only thing you need to know how to do is to last hit. You don't really care about anything your lane opponent does or anything, just last hit, zone, and infinite sustain/harass through his passive.
just wanted to say thanks to Mogwai haha. After his Wukong build got me a couple of pentas and many easy wins now his nunu build turns out to be hilariously broken op and I'm soloing barons at 19 minutes.
I've done that matchup twice and both times I lost it. First time it was misplay on my part that led to snowballing, but the second time... :[ I found that I can easily beat rumble in trades levels 1-4. But once he hits 5+ I have a hard time. If I go up to last hit he combos me. I can heal it up np with Consume while iceballing him away, but it essentially means I can only go last hit when my consume is off cd.
On July 29 2012 14:53 Ryuu314 wrote: How do you lane Nunu v. Rumble?
I've done that matchup twice and both times I lost it. First time it was misplay on my part that led to snowballing, but the second time... :[ I found that I can easily beat rumble in trades levels 1-4. But once he hits 5+ I have a hard time. If I go up to last hit he combos me. I can heal it up np with Consume while iceballing him away, but it essentially means I can only go last hit when my consume is off cd.
Admittedly I haven't played the matchup. But early chalice into revolver, I foresee 0 problems against rumble. You can't last hit? Because of flame spitter, right? Flame spitter pushes hard, and nunu is excellent at tanking creeps in order to freeze. It's like, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, rumble denying u last hits should put him severely at risk to jungle ganks, which nunu has execellent support for. An offensive flash on nunu should always yield a kill against a pushed opponent.
Other than that, if he hits free harpoons, then yeah, it's annoying and sucks. But I feel like there are definite counter play options, and if rumble misses harpoon, then nunu ditactes disengagement with e and w.
On July 29 2012 14:53 Ryuu314 wrote: How do you lane Nunu v. Rumble?
I've done that matchup twice and both times I lost it. First time it was misplay on my part that led to snowballing, but the second time... :[ I found that I can easily beat rumble in trades levels 1-4. But once he hits 5+ I have a hard time. If I go up to last hit he combos me. I can heal it up np with Consume while iceballing him away, but it essentially means I can only go last hit when my consume is off cd.
Admittedly I haven't played the matchup. But early chalice into revolver, I foresee 0 problems against rumble. You can't last hit? Because of flame spitter, right? Flame spitter pushes hard, and nunu is excellent at tanking creeps in order to freeze. It's like, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, rumble denying u last hits should put him severely at risk to jungle ganks, which nunu has execellent support for. An offensive flash on nunu should always yield a kill against a pushed opponent.
Other than that, if he hits free harpoons, then yeah, it's annoying and sucks. But I feel like there are definite counter play options, and if rumble misses harpoon, then nunu ditactes disengagement with e and w.
That's how I did it, but I got chalice after philo. I think it was philo first trip back and then pick/chalice. I went straight for grail and mercs after and just froze the lane. I also got a second lvl Q at lvl 5. If rumble pushes the lane. You can just freeze it. Get your jungle to gank, because he'll have a hard time getting away from snowball.
Ya, philo into grail, pick probably not too useful. Early mercs sounds nice to dodge his harpoon and flame, and mr will mean you should out sustain him hard. Maybe then like, pick revolver shroud. Abyssal aegis could be possibilities as smash suggested in his standard build, but I'd be wary of fucking with grail revolver shroud, seems like smash put a bunch of thought into it. Depends on how cdr / extra sustain affects the matchup, iunno without playing it.
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
Consume Damage increased to 500/600/700/800/900 from 400/525/650/775/900 Damage dealt to Dragon and Baron increased to 100% from 50% Cooldown reduced to 16/14/12/10/8 seconds from 18/16/14/12/10 seconds
Also, consume + Spell Vamp is pretty sick too.
Range doesn't completely fuck with nunu, unless you also have sustain to compete with his.
Sivir might be an exception because she can allin nunu when her spell shield is up but most range will get snowballed once and never get another auto attack off. Nunu hard counters Kayle and does really well against kennen. How is ranged OP against her, exactly? You snowball them, last hit that minion you were wanting to last hit, run into bush. They can't respond very well with autos, they have no AS left. You'll take damage early but not a lot. Besides, it's more than possible to put up with being at a disadvantage when it's only til level 2 or 3, and let whoever push you towards your turret.
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
Consume Damage increased to 500/600/700/800/900 from 400/525/650/775/900 Damage dealt to Dragon and Baron increased to 100% from 50% Cooldown reduced to 16/14/12/10/8 seconds from 18/16/14/12/10 seconds
Also, consume + Spell Vamp is pretty sick too.
Range doesn't completely fuck with nunu, unless you also have sustain to compete with his.
Sivir might be an exception because she can allin nunu when her spell shield is up but most range will get snowballed once and never get another auto attack off. Nunu hard counters Kayle and does really well against kennen. How is ranged OP against her, exactly? You snowball them, last hit that minion you were wanting to last hit, run into bush. They can't respond very well with autos, they have no AS left. You'll take damage early but not a lot. Besides, it's more than possible to put up with being at a disadvantage when it's only til level 2 or 3, and let whoever push you towards your turret.
The problem is that Nunu's E has 6 seconds CD and Sivir's E is 20 seconds.
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
Consume Damage increased to 500/600/700/800/900 from 400/525/650/775/900 Damage dealt to Dragon and Baron increased to 100% from 50% Cooldown reduced to 16/14/12/10/8 seconds from 18/16/14/12/10 seconds
Also, consume + Spell Vamp is pretty sick too.
Range doesn't completely fuck with nunu, unless you also have sustain to compete with his.
Sivir might be an exception because she can allin nunu when her spell shield is up but most range will get snowballed once and never get another auto attack off. Nunu hard counters Kayle and does really well against kennen. How is ranged OP against her, exactly? You snowball them, last hit that minion you were wanting to last hit, run into bush. They can't respond very well with autos, they have no AS left. You'll take damage early but not a lot. Besides, it's more than possible to put up with being at a disadvantage when it's only til level 2 or 3, and let whoever push you towards your turret.
The problem is that Nunu's E has 6 seconds CD and Sivir's E is 20 seconds.
Down to 10 when leveled. Auto-attack reset on W provides a bit of resistant to AS debuff as well.
Pure theory-craft but I feel a Bloodthirster Sivir with E/W max would do well against Nunu.
On July 28 2012 16:49 Kouda wrote: Jesus christ. Nunu with WotA is broken. -_____________-
Yep. What was Riot thinking? He is going to get reverted to Pre-Jayce.
Nunu's buffs were q does more damage, his ult now doesn't have completely retarded time/damage scaling, and his passive isn't almost 2 years old anymore. Nunu was barely buffed. Barely. He doesn't do more damage, he doesn't heal more. He gets more free spells, and his ult does more damage when cancelled. Nunu was always as strong in lane as he was previously. Salce would ap nunu mid month ago. Ranged completely fucks with nunu at level one, you can push him out of the lane, or force him to eat creeps and push. Go like sivir top against nunu, see what happens.
With jungle nunu I have an almost 70% win rate, and people are saying rumble is OP with a 65% win rate, so you should consider that (but I had an almost 70% win rate before the nunu buffs).
Consume Damage increased to 500/600/700/800/900 from 400/525/650/775/900 Damage dealt to Dragon and Baron increased to 100% from 50% Cooldown reduced to 16/14/12/10/8 seconds from 18/16/14/12/10 seconds
Also, consume + Spell Vamp is pretty sick too.
Range doesn't completely fuck with nunu, unless you also have sustain to compete with his.
Sivir might be an exception because she can allin nunu when her spell shield is up but most range will get snowballed once and never get another auto attack off. Nunu hard counters Kayle and does really well against kennen. How is ranged OP against her, exactly? You snowball them, last hit that minion you were wanting to last hit, run into bush. They can't respond very well with autos, they have no AS left. You'll take damage early but not a lot. Besides, it's more than possible to put up with being at a disadvantage when it's only til level 2 or 3, and let whoever push you towards your turret.
The problem is that Nunu's E has 6 seconds CD and Sivir's E is 20 seconds.
Down to 10 when leveled. Auto-attack reset on W provides a bit of resistant to AS debuff as well.
Pure theory-craft but I feel a Bloodthirster Sivir with E/W max would do well against Nunu.
My point was more that sivir can chase so hard, and ~9 seconds without being able to put a slow on her might be too much for nunu to stop from dying to an allin from someone who has significantly more damage than him, and better early chasing power.
On July 30 2012 04:18 Alzadar wrote: Auto-attack reset on W provides a bit of resistant to AS debuff as well.
How do autoattack resets have any influence on the effectiveness of AS slows?
From what I understand of attack speed mechanics, having an auto-attack reset allows you to get off two auto-attacks in a constant amount of time, independent of your attack speed.
I highly doubt sivir would do much to nunu. Glacial shroud early would wreck her shit. And have you tried all inning nunu? It's doesn't work. Q is a huge heal and e and w mean nunu can just walk away if he doesn't like how the fight is going.
Level 1 sivir e is a long ass cool down, it gets shorter when level led, but if she levels e she either goes without levels in q or w, not scary at all. Glacial means you get lIke 4 second e's and a tonne of armor to fuck her damage. Not to mention a sivir will push the lane, and will have to blow ult or flash to escape jungle ganks.
On July 30 2012 04:40 Alzadar wrote: From what I understand of attack speed mechanics, having an auto-attack reset allows you to get off two auto-attacks in a constant amount of time, independent of your attack speed.
I don't get it. You still need to perform the attack animation up until the cast point, and the amount of time that takes is scaled by your attack speed exactly the same way your attack cooldown is.
Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
The thing about Nunu is that he was not designed to be a support champion. He was more like bruiser turned into support due to power creep.
how to convince people to give me nunu top if i'm not first pick.....
also, is nunu vs yorick really that hard? i went against like 3 yoricks in a row, and i pretty much smashed all of them. i will say that these games were normals, as i was still trying finalize my playstyle with him. but. i feel like if you get a little bit of jungle pressure early on, then you can build a ridiculous advantage over him. just as long as you save your consume for his red ghosts. what am i missing in this matchup?
On July 31 2012 08:15 goldenkrnboi wrote: how to convince people to give me nunu top if i'm not first pick.....
also, is nunu vs yorick really that hard? i went against like 3 yoricks in a row, and i pretty much smashed all of them. i will say that these games were normals, as i was still trying finalize my playstyle with him. but. i feel like if you get a little bit of jungle pressure early on, then you can build a ridiculous advantage over him. just as long as you save your consume for his red ghosts. what am i missing in this matchup?
I just pick Nunu and tell people that I am going top. No one has ever questioned me before.
Neither did anyone question me playing Evelynn mid nor Caitlyn mid. I guess in my normal Elo range no one cares xD
On July 31 2012 08:15 goldenkrnboi wrote: how to convince people to give me nunu top if i'm not first pick.....
also, is nunu vs yorick really that hard? i went against like 3 yoricks in a row, and i pretty much smashed all of them. i will say that these games were normals, as i was still trying finalize my playstyle with him. but. i feel like if you get a little bit of jungle pressure early on, then you can build a ridiculous advantage over him. just as long as you save your consume for his red ghosts. what am i missing in this matchup?
What? Nunu fucking smashes yorick. I dc'd and came to lane lvl 2 against lvl 6 yorick, and he couldn't kill me. Multiple people saying nunu destroys yorick.
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
First there are good top lanes against nunu, and good mids. People just aren't playing them. Second you can't nerf lane nunu, unless you make him worse than he was before. You can't nerf his lane sustain without hitting his jungling. You can't hit his poke without destroying his late game.
Warwick does quite fine vs nunu top. Only catch is you MUST respond to his chalice with a chalice of your own. Then you both sustain the fuck out of each other until a gank comes, you press R and nunu dies.
On July 31 2012 08:15 goldenkrnboi wrote: how to convince people to give me nunu top if i'm not first pick.....
also, is nunu vs yorick really that hard? i went against like 3 yoricks in a row, and i pretty much smashed all of them. i will say that these games were normals, as i was still trying finalize my playstyle with him. but. i feel like if you get a little bit of jungle pressure early on, then you can build a ridiculous advantage over him. just as long as you save your consume for his red ghosts. what am i missing in this matchup?
Same deal as Sufficiency for me in ranked (1500-1600, currently 1614 elo). I ask for top lane and pick Nunu if they're okay with me going top. A few people have probably looked at the pick funny and I've gotten questions like "lol nunu?" but no one's dodged or anything.
I had only one guy freak out about me going Nunu top but halfway through the game when I smashed an Irelia 4-0 he was just too confused to even complain. Nunu es best.
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
I'm not sure it's so much that they have a problem with supports playing another role as it was supports being just plain OP. Supports are designed to function with 0 farm, but when Riot made all the old supports they also made their kits super strong with farm. Hence why you had Taric/Soraka with crazy AP ratios on everything. Lulu was also just broken for solo laning since her ratios were quite high and her poke esp against melee was insane.
If Nunu gets nerfed I expect it to be due to his ridiculous sustain and basically free poke.
I spectated Shurelia a lot the last a few weeks. She is not totally amazing (1500 Elo is not bad for my standard), but she likes to play Leona mid. Initially I thought this is ridiculous since Leona has terrible ratios for AP and terrible kit for bruiser; but the way she plays Leona is that she just go roam and gank other lanes until they snowball like crazy. As Leona, you don't even need damage to gank... since she has 3 CCs out of 4 abilities and her other ability is a defense steroid that does damage.
If you think about it carefully, CCs scare harder than anything else in the game. A single CC can prevent tons of damage on yourself and/or do tons of damage on an opponent. This is why supports are broken.
On July 31 2012 11:22 Sufficiency wrote: Supports are OP.
I spectated Shurelia a lot the last a few weeks. She is not totally amazing (1500 Elo is not bad for my standard), but she likes to play Leona mid. Initially I thought this is ridiculous since Leona has terrible ratios for AP and terrible kit for bruiser; but the way she plays Leona is that she just go roam and gank other lanes until they snowball like crazy. As Leona, you don't even need damage to gank... since she has 3 CCs out of 4 abilities and her other ability is a defense steroid that does damage.
If you think about it carefully, CCs scare harder than anything else in the game. A single CC can prevent tons of damage on yourself and/or do tons of damage on an opponent. This is why supports are broken.
I think Leona is a really great champ in general. 3 CCs are no laughing matter. I never go Vayne/ADC unless I see a Leona support on my team.
Leona can initiate with her reach-stun, then stun while I'm rushing to the target, and then I will connect it with a condemn-stun. By this time the opponent is almost dead. Leona still has her Ult to use incase the opponent flashes or something.
On July 31 2012 08:15 goldenkrnboi wrote: how to convince people to give me nunu top if i'm not first pick.....
also, is nunu vs yorick really that hard? i went against like 3 yoricks in a row, and i pretty much smashed all of them. i will say that these games were normals, as i was still trying finalize my playstyle with him. but. i feel like if you get a little bit of jungle pressure early on, then you can build a ridiculous advantage over him. just as long as you save your consume for his red ghosts. what am i missing in this matchup?
What? Nunu fucking smashes yorick. I dc'd and came to lane lvl 2 against lvl 6 yorick, and he couldn't kill me. Multiple people saying nunu destroys yorick.
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
First there are good top lanes against nunu, and good mids. People just aren't playing them. Second you can't nerf lane nunu, unless you make him worse than he was before. You can't nerf his lane sustain without hitting his jungling. You can't hit his poke without destroying his late game.
They will be fine destroying Nunu's late game. They are fine with Taric having a terrible lategame.
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
I'm not sure it's so much that they have a problem with supports playing another role as it was supports being just plain OP. Supports are designed to function with 0 farm, but when Riot made all the old supports they also made their kits super strong with farm. Hence why you had Taric/Soraka with crazy AP ratios on everything. Lulu was also just broken for solo laning since her ratios were quite high and her poke esp against melee was insane.
If Nunu gets nerfed I expect it to be due to his ridiculous sustain and basically free poke.
Supports are not OP, particularly in lane. They just provide utility with mediocre damage. The "non-support-support" like soraka/lulu/janna lane only works because AD Carries are ridiculously OP if they have enough Peels.
On July 31 2012 08:15 goldenkrnboi wrote: how to convince people to give me nunu top if i'm not first pick.....
also, is nunu vs yorick really that hard? i went against like 3 yoricks in a row, and i pretty much smashed all of them. i will say that these games were normals, as i was still trying finalize my playstyle with him. but. i feel like if you get a little bit of jungle pressure early on, then you can build a ridiculous advantage over him. just as long as you save your consume for his red ghosts. what am i missing in this matchup?
What? Nunu fucking smashes yorick. I dc'd and came to lane lvl 2 against lvl 6 yorick, and he couldn't kill me. Multiple people saying nunu destroys yorick.
On July 31 2012 07:59 cLutZ wrote:
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
First there are good top lanes against nunu, and good mids. People just aren't playing them. Second you can't nerf lane nunu, unless you make him worse than he was before. You can't nerf his lane sustain without hitting his jungling. You can't hit his poke without destroying his late game.
They will be fine destroying Nunu's late game. They are fine with Taric having a terrible lategame.
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
I'm not sure it's so much that they have a problem with supports playing another role as it was supports being just plain OP. Supports are designed to function with 0 farm, but when Riot made all the old supports they also made their kits super strong with farm. Hence why you had Taric/Soraka with crazy AP ratios on everything. Lulu was also just broken for solo laning since her ratios were quite high and her poke esp against melee was insane.
If Nunu gets nerfed I expect it to be due to his ridiculous sustain and basically free poke.
Supports are not OP, particularly in lane. They just provide utility with mediocre damage. The "non-support-support" like soraka/lulu/janna lane only works because AD Carries are ridiculously OP if they have enough Peels.
Your original post was saying that Riot nerfs supports who can play roles other than support. I'm saying that's not true. Supports got nerfed across the board because there was a short period of time where people realized supports were ridiculously good with farm. Solo mid Soraka was on the verge of fotm before they nerfed her ratios (she used to have 1.0 AP ratio on heal and something like 0.7 on her E) and cooldowns. Solo top Taric was gaining popularity as well (he used to have 1.0 or near 1.0 AP ratio on freaking everything). Those guys were nerfed hard because they were simply ridiculous with farm. Sona was nerfed because she was OP period. Lulu was nerfed because her ratios and damages were too high and could dominate melees.
These guys were nerfed because their kits were broken in some way or another; not because they were supports who could play other roles. If anything, Riot would prefer supports who can play other roles as they've repeatedly said they dislike (or at least didn't intend for) the AD/Support bot lane meta.
On July 31 2012 08:15 goldenkrnboi wrote: how to convince people to give me nunu top if i'm not first pick.....
also, is nunu vs yorick really that hard? i went against like 3 yoricks in a row, and i pretty much smashed all of them. i will say that these games were normals, as i was still trying finalize my playstyle with him. but. i feel like if you get a little bit of jungle pressure early on, then you can build a ridiculous advantage over him. just as long as you save your consume for his red ghosts. what am i missing in this matchup?
What? Nunu fucking smashes yorick. I dc'd and came to lane lvl 2 against lvl 6 yorick, and he couldn't kill me. Multiple people saying nunu destroys yorick.
On July 31 2012 07:59 cLutZ wrote:
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
First there are good top lanes against nunu, and good mids. People just aren't playing them. Second you can't nerf lane nunu, unless you make him worse than he was before. You can't nerf his lane sustain without hitting his jungling. You can't hit his poke without destroying his late game.
They will be fine destroying Nunu's late game. They are fine with Taric having a terrible lategame.
On July 31 2012 10:41 Ryuu314 wrote:
On July 31 2012 07:59 cLutZ wrote:
On July 30 2012 10:02 sylverfyre wrote: Anyone with that much point-and-click ranged harass (especially since its a slow so you can't respond to it "correctly" on many champs) AND sustain hits problem mode pretty easily. GP was in this spot in the past before getting nerfed. I'm not sure the 'correct' way to hit nunu for this without making his support or jungle weaker (because they're pretty fine)
Well, Riot's standard process goes like this:
1. Is it a support champ? 2. If yes, is it capable of performing in another role? 3. If yes, nerf.
Whether Nunu gets changed significantly is not a real question. The question is which role they nerf him out of.
I'm not sure it's so much that they have a problem with supports playing another role as it was supports being just plain OP. Supports are designed to function with 0 farm, but when Riot made all the old supports they also made their kits super strong with farm. Hence why you had Taric/Soraka with crazy AP ratios on everything. Lulu was also just broken for solo laning since her ratios were quite high and her poke esp against melee was insane.
If Nunu gets nerfed I expect it to be due to his ridiculous sustain and basically free poke.
Supports are not OP, particularly in lane. They just provide utility with mediocre damage. The "non-support-support" like soraka/lulu/janna lane only works because AD Carries are ridiculously OP if they have enough Peels.
Your original post was saying that Riot nerfs supports who can play roles other than support. I'm saying that's not true. Supports got nerfed across the board because there was a short period of time where people realized supports were ridiculously good with farm. Solo mid Soraka was on the verge of fotm before they nerfed her ratios (she used to have 1.0 AP ratio on heal and something like 0.7 on her E) and cooldowns. Solo top Taric was gaining popularity as well (he used to have 1.0 or near 1.0 AP ratio on freaking everything). Those guys were nerfed hard because they were simply ridiculous with farm. Sona was nerfed because she was OP period. Lulu was nerfed because her ratios and damages were too high and could dominate melees.
These guys were nerfed because their kits were broken in some way or another; not because they were supports who could play other roles. If anything, Riot would prefer supports who can play other roles as they've repeatedly said they dislike (or at least didn't intend for) the AD/Support bot lane meta.
"Support with farm" = Support playing another role. I don't necessarily think its bad that these chars can't carry a game or faceroll in lane, what I don't like is if you get a kill in lane, it feels like and accident and a waste.
Nunu is not OP, but a Nunu top + Janna Support = a team that is nearly impossible to engage on, or disengage from. That is why they stopped Soraka mid, not because soraka was pentakilling fools, but because you can't kill an ADC with a fed soraka healing him + another support buffing/peeling.
Ever since Kennen was first released I've hated him with a passion. I zoned a Kennen so hard he only had 20 CS at 10 minutes. So glad that Nunu is OP right now.
On July 31 2012 11:28 GhostOwl wrote: How do you guys build/mastery/rune the new Nunu?
I've found that using CDR boots, Doran rings, and other mana regen lets me completely E spam the fuck outta my lane opponent.
What about masteries and runes?
Smashes build is on like page 10, but I'll post it here as well.
mpen red, armor yellows, flat mr blues, ap quints 9-0-21 or 9-21 (vs hard lanes like rumble yorick) boots health pot 2xmana pot Philo/pick/chalice/grail/fh/wota (Mercs or Tabi) R>E>W>Q lvl q if you have too early against hard lanes.
I have dominated my elo so far with this and only 1 game have I not been told nunu sucks top, so useless late game, or some other none sense. Yet, I have a 9/1 kda so far out of 4 games and beat rumble, shen, irelia, and gp top. Rumble was by far the hardest lane for me so far, but after chalice/merc it got easy. Shen was laughable easy. Irelia was annoying, but I was never in danger and zoned her out easily. All 4 games the top lane was forced to take the jungle to keep up. The GP game I gave first blood at lvl 1 to an ali gank : /. I forced him out of lane right when I got back and snowballed him from there even though he got first.
It's hilarious because every game the other player thinks they can take you. Then when they realize they can't trade with you. They stay far away and go jungle when the lane is pushed.
Edit... Yeah, seems people are catching on. A few OP threads on the lol forums, but they both were locked and downvoted into oblivion xD.
Brees told me that Morde wins the matchup tonight, which may or may not be true, I'd need to play it. I actually think I might rush Wit's End vs. Morde and try to hit him in the face with my mighty Yeti paws. IDK, need to playtest I think.
So I just tried the Nunu top build, I was against a Darius. I got FB on him then a second kill not long after. After that the lane was pretty much over for him. Its a Craaazy strong build wowee. I 2 manned baron with the jungler at like 19 mins then soloed him 7 minutes later -_- was nuts.
On July 31 2012 20:44 Sufficiency wrote: As far as I know, his weak match ups are: Nidalee, Irelia, Yorick.
Eh. Really? Nidalee can't really out-harass Nunu's consume. Nunu can disengage and heal up from Irelia pretty easily. I just played against a Yorick. Beginning can be a bit rough 'cause of mana constraints but if you run 9/21/0 and defensive runes you should be able to do pretty well. Once you get Chalice it's a farmfest.
On July 31 2012 20:55 Antyee wrote: I don't think Yorick is a bad matchup. More ghouls, more free consume.
Yorick is like the easiest matchup for nunu lol. Counters him through out the entire game.
Ghouls are apparently rather delicious.
Champs with high sustain and/or spammable shields and/or mobility that doesn't depend on walking are nunu's bane. Riven does ok (put 2-3 points in shield early to suck up snowball harass, eventually nunu has mana problems pre-chalice and you don't),
udyr and warwick do well (WW needs a chalice to keep up with the mana costs, but you can GP10+chalice just like nunu)
I haven't played the matchup, but I imagine lee sin will do well vs nunu too. Again, it's about shielding the snowballs, and sustaining off any damage that gets through.
Merc treads are particularly nice, as well as MR in general (since you're playing a sustain/shield champ, RIGHT?) You'll probably want a Hexdunker/wit's end early (whichever is appropriate for your choice of champ) - once you have some decent MR and are outsustain/shielding the snowball harass, you should be free to push your lane a bit and roam a bit - nunu needs to use his ult to clear super fast. Since you probably can't kill nunu (maybe warwick can lock him down long enough for a gank to kill him) just go try to make shit happen elsewhere on the map.
If Riven get ahead at all it feels like the lane is over because once she zones you from minions post 6 she can stun/all-in at any time and either kill you or force you to back. Every other lane seems manageable.
On July 31 2012 23:10 RuskiPanda wrote: If Riven get ahead at all it feels like the lane is over because once she zones you from minions post 6 she can stun/all-in at any time and either kill you or force you to back. Every other lane seems manageable.
Yeah warwick just turns it into a farmfest, though his presence means you need to fear ganks massively - his ult is so good at letting a ganker come in and beat you up. Once that happens, you can only slow one of them. Udyr ignores all the snowballs you ever throw at him, and those tiger swipes HURT so you have to kite him and he can zone you. He's not very scary when he has no movespeed, but you can't exactly walk up to him and cs standing next to him, either.
I imagine lee sin would be threatening in the same way as riven - threaten to allin you with combos that snowball won't prevent.
Riven and Rumble are the only matchups I've had trouble with. Brees tells me Morde wins vs. Nunu, but Morde top is so easy to gank, I can't imagine that's actually true with real janglers in the game.
Warwick with double gold/10 -> chalice is worse than Nunu with double gold/10 -> chalice, so I consider that a win for Nunu even though it is technically a farmfest. I've crushed the Lees and Udyrs I've run into, but I THINK they should both be farm fests if the opponent is good (yet, again, probably a win for the Nunu team because Nunu is better lategame than both of them IMHO).
You need 21 defensive for the early levels vs. Yorick, but once you figure out how to eat the red ghoul, he's pretty helpless vs. you.
I haven't run into a Riven yet, but I just can't do anything against Rumble. For the first few levels I can bully him pretty darn hard with E+autos, but after like level 4 it just gets so painful. A good Rumble would just shield the snowballs then turn on Q if you try to harass or last hit. Rumble pushes like mad, but with good warding nothign short of your jungler literally camping 24/7 can do much I find. I found that I could really only go cs when I had both Q and E up. E to keep him from chasing me and Q to heal up the flamespitter I'm guaranteed to take when I cs.
On August 01 2012 00:17 Ryuu314 wrote: I haven't run into a Riven yet, but I just can't do anything against Rumble. For the first few levels I can bully him pretty darn hard with E+autos, but after like level 4 it just gets so painful. A good Rumble would just shield the snowballs then turn on Q if you try to harass or last hit. Rumble pushes like mad, but with good warding nothign short of your jungler literally camping 24/7 can do much I find. I found that I could really only go cs when I had both Q and E up. E to keep him from chasing me and Q to heal up the flamespitter I'm guaranteed to take when I cs.
On July 27 2012 05:05 Mogwai wrote: MPen Reds Armor Yellows MRes Blues AP Quints
9/0/21 or 9/21/0, typically 9/0/21, but sometimes you gotta suck it up and run defensive masteries vs. rumble or yorick.
ignite/flash
Thanks, I didn't realize they were hyperlinked.
On August 01 2012 00:17 Ryuu314 wrote: I haven't run into a Riven yet, but I just can't do anything against Rumble. For the first few levels I can bully him pretty darn hard with E+autos, but after like level 4 it just gets so painful. A good Rumble would just shield the snowballs then turn on Q if you try to harass or last hit. Rumble pushes like mad, but with good warding nothign short of your jungler literally camping 24/7 can do much I find. I found that I could really only go cs when I had both Q and E up. E to keep him from chasing me and Q to heal up the flamespitter I'm guaranteed to take when I cs.
Top lanes can by pink wards too, doesn't just have to be support. And an overextended rumble has a hard time retreating even with shield (courtesy of snowball, blood boil, and ult). If he's pushing super hard, and you've frozen the creeps just outside your tower like you should, then rumble should have to blow flash to avoid a gank, which depending on the jungle doesn't even ensure safety if you offensive flash as well. He also has no hard CC to break your ult, which can be really useful in supporting a gank.
On August 01 2012 00:17 Ryuu314 wrote: I haven't run into a Riven yet, but I just can't do anything against Rumble. For the first few levels I can bully him pretty darn hard with E+autos, but after like level 4 it just gets so painful. A good Rumble would just shield the snowballs then turn on Q if you try to harass or last hit. Rumble pushes like mad, but with good warding nothign short of your jungler literally camping 24/7 can do much I find. I found that I could really only go cs when I had both Q and E up. E to keep him from chasing me and Q to heal up the flamespitter I'm guaranteed to take when I cs.
Ban rumble, he's OP.
On August 01 2012 00:19 HazMat wrote: Also I'm pretty sure Darius beats Nunu.
I've only crushed them thus far. I don't see how he can ever get more than E -> Q -> W on you if you just snowball him, and at that point, you eat a creep and it's k.
About darius, don't trade autos with him (get 5 stacks and it's a sad day). Outside of that I think you should be fine, you'll poke him back. Just get a gank and darius can't escape anyways with that e slow.
So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
na, I want them to camp me. a camped nunu is still stronk as balls, as long as your team doesn't faceplant 4v3 elsewhere, you win the game by getting camped.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
Except Fizz continually eats snowballs, while Nunu just munches a minion to shrug off the harass. Fizz would also run OOM way faster than Nunu in this case.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
Except Fizz continually eats snowballs, while Nunu just munches a minion to shrug off the harass. Fizz would also run OOM way faster than Nunu in this case.
How would fizz eat snowballs when he can dodge with e? Not to mention the reduction to healing is huge against nunu, especially sinec nunu's cooldown are long in early game. Yeah, i could see fizz going oom first, but I could also see fizz forcing nunu back by the time a fizz runs oom. Fizz wins against vlad matchup~, and vlad has no mana issues.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
Except Fizz continually eats snowballs, while Nunu just munches a minion to shrug off the harass. Fizz would also run OOM way faster than Nunu in this case.
How would fizz eat snowballs when he can dodge with e? Not to mention the reduction to healing is huge against nunu, especially sinec nunu's cooldown are long in early game. Yeah, i could see fizz going oom first, but I could also see fizz forcing nunu back by the time a fizz runs oom. Fizz wins against vlad matchup~, and vlad has no mana issues.
Snowball is also on a shorter cooldown than Playful/Trickster at all ranks, especially at low ranks. If I were playing Nunu, I'd Snowball once to force the Playful, run before he can Trickster in range, then go back to doing the normal thing.
On the other hand, I almost never see Fizz outside of mid, and even that was like once in the past two months, so I don't know him that well.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
Except Fizz continually eats snowballs, while Nunu just munches a minion to shrug off the harass. Fizz would also run OOM way faster than Nunu in this case.
How would fizz eat snowballs when he can dodge with e? Not to mention the reduction to healing is huge against nunu, especially sinec nunu's cooldown are long in early game. Yeah, i could see fizz going oom first, but I could also see fizz forcing nunu back by the time a fizz runs oom. Fizz wins against vlad matchup~, and vlad has no mana issues.
Fizz vs Vlad is way different than Fizz vs Nunu
Nunu's snowballs are wayyyyy more spammable than Fizz's pole. Mana-wise AND cdr-wise. Honestly, I haven't faced a nunu with my fizz yet but Vlad is easy to face because Vlad's healing is reduced through Fizz's w.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
Early game/Mid game, Fizz without blue can only perform E Q W combo 2 or 3 times before he goes completely oom. Nunu 's Q will allow him to stay in lane and wait for Fizz to run outta mana.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
Except Fizz continually eats snowballs, while Nunu just munches a minion to shrug off the harass. Fizz would also run OOM way faster than Nunu in this case.
How would fizz eat snowballs when he can dodge with e? Not to mention the reduction to healing is huge against nunu, especially sinec nunu's cooldown are long in early game. Yeah, i could see fizz going oom first, but I could also see fizz forcing nunu back by the time a fizz runs oom. Fizz wins against vlad matchup~, and vlad has no mana issues.
Fizz vs Vlad is way different than Fizz vs Nunu
Nunu's snowballs are wayyyyy more spammable than Fizz's pole. Mana-wise AND cdr-wise. Honestly, I haven't faced a nunu with my fizz yet but Vlad is easy to face because Vlad's healing is reduced through Fizz's w.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
I could see fizz being a good counterpick against nunu~, but no concrete evidence of it. This is how i could see the matchup go. Fizz E's the snowball, then Q-W combo on nunu, then runs away. nunu can't really do anything to retaliate
Early game/Mid game, Fizz without blue can only perform E Q W combo 2 or 3 times before he goes completely oom. Nunu 's Q will allow him to stay in lane and wait for Fizz to run outta mana.
Well, fizz doesn't always need to do a full eqw trade. I think Fizz's w trade is stronger than nunu's E-Q trade, and if fizz wants to go all in on a pre-6 kill on a nunu, his eqw trade will completely out trade nunu.
Haha that's funny so am I wei2cool.. i'll be on tonight and we can play the matchup if you want though (just for fun, friendly ofc). I need more practice on nunu anyway
On August 01 2012 02:03 Perplex wrote: Haha that's funny so am I wei2cool.. i'll be on tonight and we can play the matchup if you want though (just for fun, friendly ofc). I need more practice on nunu anyway
, i still can't, i didn't bring my computer home~ essentially this summer I'm living in 2 different places. half the week I'm in SD, interning, and the other half, in Riverside, just studying mcats, I've been leaving my computer in Rside.~
Finally lost 1 game : / Team face checked early and gave yorick first. Then jungle derps and gives him a 2nd kill while I'm back. Yet, I still out cs'd him, but whole team was derp : /.
Fizz can't beat nunu, if he goes pure ap, he can't burst sufficiently to kill him in one go, and if he goes bruiser, nunu's e rapes his damage output. Fizz also has no sustain, and horrifying mana issues, nunu has the exact opposite.
Generally when you run out of item slots. The rule of thumb is ~12minutes is how long you have to hold your gp10 to of had them pay off if you sell them.
I typically don't sell them until I can sell them and immediately buy a completed item, usually aegis, abyssal or wit's end, typically after at least glacial + revolver, if not the full FH + WotA.
On August 01 2012 03:12 Mogwai wrote: I typically don't sell them until I can sell them and immediately buy a completed item, usually aegis, abyssal or wit's end, typically after at least glacial + revolver, if not the full FH + WotA.
Protip: upgrade philo to elesias then sell elesias for bonus 10 gold
On August 01 2012 03:21 101toss wrote: I find it silly they kept that profit in even after nerfing elesia cost
Agreed, but it went down from 40 to 10, so it's pretty negligible atm. It's tough because you don't want to make regen + tenacity so expensive that no one buys it... Though I guess no one buys it now anyway so lol, w/e.
On August 01 2012 03:37 AsnSensation wrote: llooool why u make a thread on reddit, now i gotta ban nunu
I still think we have a few days left at least until he's first pick/first ban in solo que. I thought we'd have a good 2 weeks but now that ~2000 people are gonna try it from reddit it will spread FAST. It was inevitable either way, but tbh i'm just gonna brush up on my riven tonight and it should be fine
Dammit Smash, now I have to babysit tops even harder when jungling >:\
Edit: speaking of which, do you think that this build can work in the jungle as well? Obviously it's super strong top, but 9/21/0 is normal jungle masteries and 9/0/21 isn't too bad either, plus going Philo/Kage could easily fit a jungle champ. Or do you think Chalice/Shroud is too expensive for a jungler to build most games?
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
Riot will respond to the whines.
I don't know if nunu is any different now than before but when I ran nunu top I felt like I fell off hard even though my build was still chalice frozen heart. A pantheon with less than 30 cs and tons of mana regen when I had over 100 ended up going 5-0 by leaving lane and ganking elsewhere. He still lost because... no cs.
I've always had troubles with nunu but felt he fell off compared to even kayle. You can play other dicks like sion or yi if you dont want to farm under tower in lane though.
On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote: Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf?
Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day.
You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole.
I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth.
rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek.
GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming.
GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid.
As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even.
This is just math but 360 life every 18 seconds isn't enough to heal all of panth's spears. If panth hits for 180 damage on each spear, and he throws two spears every 8 seconds then he can eat through the heal in 8 seconds. Yeah gp can sit out of spear range, but as long as panth doesn't run out of mana, he can trade effectively enough such that one of them has to leave lane.
Nunu heals for 345 every 10 seconds for 60 mana. I've beaten panth as max Q nunu but he brought me pretty low too, and with chalice and mana regen runes on both sides the fight probably comes down to skill rather than defensiveness being stronger.
At the very least it isn't that clear who wins in lane, especially with jungler intervention.
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
Riot will respond to the whines.
I don't know if nunu is any different now than before but when I ran nunu top I felt like I fell off hard even though my build was still chalice frozen heart. A pantheon with less than 30 cs and tons of mana regen when I had over 100 ended up going 5-0 by leaving lane and ganking elsewhere. He still lost because... no cs.
I've always had troubles with nunu but felt he fell off compared to even kayle. You can play other dicks like sion or yi if you dont want to farm under tower in lane though.
The problem is you're trying to compare 2 very different top styles. Nunu's ability in lategame is much different than kayles.
similar to the soraka mid, vs other ap mids, the lategame usage is different. Or comparing nautilus to shyvanna. Nunu's main ability lategame is an anti-carry, while being a support/tank. Kayles late game ability is off/semi-carry, along w/ that ulti.
It was maybe just me being bad, but I had huge problems against a darius who got FB on invade. Only around lvl 9-11 i felt like I could match him, but still. :-/
On August 01 2012 01:20 Perplex wrote: So i've yet to come across a losing lane when I play this... I'm rushing to figure out a viable counterpick before this goes FoTM. Considering I main top, I need an answer to Nunu besides banning him :p
edit: As this becomes more popular and junglers start thinking "nunu is op, let's camp him", would you consider starting boots 3 and a ward using gold from the utility mastery? You'd be ungankable in your most vulnerable state
Riot will respond to the whines.
I don't know if nunu is any different now than before but when I ran nunu top I felt like I fell off hard even though my build was still chalice frozen heart. A pantheon with less than 30 cs and tons of mana regen when I had over 100 ended up going 5-0 by leaving lane and ganking elsewhere. He still lost because... no cs.
I've always had troubles with nunu but felt he fell off compared to even kayle. You can play other dicks like sion or yi if you dont want to farm under tower in lane though.
On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote: Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf?
Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day.
You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole.
I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth.
rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek.
GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming.
GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid.
As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even.
This is just math but 360 life every 18 seconds isn't enough to heal all of panth's spears. If panth hits for 180 damage on each spear, and he throws two spears every 8 seconds then he can eat through the heal in 8 seconds. Yeah gp can sit out of spear range, but as long as panth doesn't run out of mana, he can trade effectively enough such that one of them has to leave lane.
Nunu heals for 345 every 10 seconds for 60 mana. I've beaten panth as max Q nunu but he brought me pretty low too, and with chalice and mana regen runes on both sides the fight probably comes down to skill rather than defensiveness being stronger.
At the very least it isn't that clear who wins in lane, especially with jungler intervention.
A post from a while ago.
well for one I think kayle scales pretty decently late game since you can basically build her like an AD carry, and have 2x AD carries in end game.
regarding nunu vs panth: That math is fine, if you only consider that panth is the only an aggressor and that nunu is only a defender in a sort of vacuum. Panth spear range is comparable to iceball range (600 vs 550), which means that in all likelihood, you are taking an iceball for most spears thrown. Nunu's iceball also has comparable damage to panth spearshot (I think it ends up being slightly less around the midgame due to scaling, but figuring it out is not something i'm interested in doing). Now what you're looking at is that nunu really only has to heal at minimum the difference in damage output of spear vs iceball, which I think consume is quite capable of doing.
now, in practice, I have no idea how nunu vs pantheon goes, but strictly comparing nunu's consume regen to panth's spear dmg output doesn't really give the full picture.
edit: another thing to consider in the gp & nunu vs panth situation is that parley is blocked by path shield, and panth can reasonably block a significant chunk of them with minimal effort. That's why gp can literally almost never be the aggressor vs pantheon and you can actually more directly compare gp healing to panth spearshot dmg. Iceball isn't affected by shield.
edit2: unrelated to above, but i had some issues vs a darius who rushed exe's calling and used it to cockblock my consumes. Ofc, that same game I also had MCMilo's olaf completely wrecking both myself and the rest of my team and eventually diving me every 5 minutes, so that might have contributed to my issues as well
Sorry, I think my post got buried, mind if I ask again?
I know you play it top, but do you think this can serve in the jungle? Double GP10 with defenses and 9/21 mastery is pretty jungle standard, and 9/0/21 can even work since his jungle is already super safe and strong. Don't know if you can do Grail and Glacial Shroud out of jungle, though.
I feel like, if so, it can make Nunu a super duper flexible pick, filling 3 roles (4, if you include mid lulzy shit).
I think it could work, but I have a hard time jungling with nunu because I tend to just hurdedur farm in the jungle when my ult is on CD due to my recent mumu spamming.
Yeah, I just never liked my general jungle build on him (mixture of Shurelya, FH, Wit's, and Aegis depending on teams), and figured if I could make this work, he might be my third pick for jungle behind Skarner and Naut.
On August 01 2012 05:29 wei2coolman wrote: Smash, what's your whole opinion on the nunu vs fizz matchup, have you had a chance to play against it?
I played it once, if you build enough MR that he can't combo you, lane is over for him because you can sit there, snowball and auto him whenever he comes for CS, and outheal his harass(only consume without the heal debuff)
I've played irelia twice now and kinda got dumped on twice. One time, granted, I fed fb to a jungler dive, but second game she'd just wqe me and take like 30% of my hp away between consume cooldowns. This was around level 7 and I hadn't backed by then (she had but only had tabi and pots). I tried to snowball her as soon as I saw her run to me but stun would go through and she'd whack me twice or three times with true damage while I was running away. It got easier when I got chalice and shroud but even then trading was impossible so I just resorted to snowballing on cd and farming as safely as I could.
I've tried Nunu top a few times now. It's absolutely hilarious and a lot more fun than expected. Thanks for a great build.
I laned against a swain who last picked after he saw our team comp. This was ridiculously hard. We had jungle ali who never came top but post-6 I think swain could 2v1 us anyway. Am I playing wrong or swain just an odd pick that wrecks me?
On August 01 2012 06:52 goldenkrnboi wrote: i wonder how long it's gonna take until nunu starts getting banned hahaha this is so ridiculous
Isn't banning Nunu just a really smart and safe play? Think about it this way:
You Get First Pick and pick: Nunu. This tells the opposing team absolutely nothing about your plan. He can go in 3 spots (at least).
They will probably play it safe with an 1. AD/Support Combo, or 2. Support + a jungle (who better not be bad vs. nunu), 3. or sup + a safe mid. In any case, at this point during picks/bans you have a huge advantage because next you can do a lot of things.
1. Counter their bot lane with a ADC + Support, leaving you with the ability to counterpick top/jungle + mid hard. 2. Pick a jungler that counters their jungle (who could go top still in most cases) + a support or ADC. 3. Do whatever you pleases. All the time there is always the threat of Nunu going support, or top, or jungle still.
Then they finish their team, they can't pick any top lane that nunu can crush, so that severely limits their champ selection, you might be able to Counterpick top or mid.
This is exactly why they nerfed other Support's ratios. Not saying I like it, but its how it is.
On August 01 2012 08:13 AsnSensation wrote: wingsofdeathx stream he plays renekton vs ... guess who NUNU TOP it's on. always ban nunu from next tomorrow on.
Noobs like doomtrobo are just making Nunu top seem weaker than it is so we're okay.
OK since i dont know about the high elo NA scene i'll take your word but voyboy also is playing top nunu in his stream atm and just 2 man'ed baron with an alistar, fanboys going crazy in iirc.
On August 01 2012 12:15 gtrsrs wrote: i just feel like nunu can't carry no matter what you do you are still gonna be reliant on your teammates not being complete derps it sucks
When you guys go for jungle nunu how do you play him? I've been opening boots 1 ward/pot and warding a buff really early and looking to get way ahead of their jungle. I've been copying smashs build with 9/21/0, is this alright or do I need to change what I'm doing? Just feels really hit and miss relying on counterjungling so much.
On August 01 2012 12:44 schmutttt wrote: When you guys go for jungle nunu how do you play him? I've been opening boots 1 ward/pot and warding a buff really early and looking to get way ahead of their jungle. I've been copying smashs build with 9/21/0, is this alright or do I need to change what I'm doing? Just feels really hit and miss relying on counterjungling so much.
I build my Jungle nunu full retard, because it's always fun to see how people react to it.
I start boots 3 pot. 9/21/0, or 9/13/8(ms), runes are mpen/armor/mrflat/AS quints. First item should be philostone, 2nd item kage's pick (or hog). Then I build bilgewater cutlass, then hextech revolver, gunblade. Triforce (or lichbane), Abyssal, frozen heart etc etc.
On August 01 2012 12:15 gtrsrs wrote: i just feel like nunu can't carry no matter what you do you are still gonna be reliant on your teammates not being complete derps it sucks
Yeah, I get that feeling as well, but as long as your teammates have half a brain, you basically have a free win because you're won lane as fuck and the enemy top is worthless. And you can chunk people pretty well with Snowball, so there's that.
On August 01 2012 12:44 schmutttt wrote: When you guys go for jungle nunu how do you play him? I've been opening boots 1 ward/pot and warding a buff really early and looking to get way ahead of their jungle. I've been copying smashs build with 9/21/0, is this alright or do I need to change what I'm doing? Just feels really hit and miss relying on counterjungling so much.
That's just Nunu's niche, though. He's a control jungler and a counter jungler. Your ganks are good but not great, since it relies on the enemy to be susceptible to slow ganks (no blink/dash, pushed far forward), and your laner has to be able to take advantage of AS/MS (less useful on mids, for example). Your job as a jungler when playing Nunu is to just make sure the enemy jungler is useless, and then show up to countergank. You're not a primary ganker like Shaco or Naut.
smash, if i may, i was doing random lolking surfing and i looked you up. why is there 5 losses in a row as nunu? is there something flawed with nunu top or is it just one of those soloqueue drops?
On August 01 2012 14:59 goldenkrnboi wrote: smash, if i may, i was doing random lolking surfing and i looked you up. why is there 5 losses in a row as nunu? is there something flawed with nunu top or is it just one of those soloqueue drops?
On August 01 2012 14:59 goldenkrnboi wrote: smash, if i may, i was doing random lolking surfing and i looked you up. why is there 5 losses in a row as nunu? is there something flawed with nunu top or is it just one of those soloqueue drops?
No, I saw some of those games on his stream. Can't carry everything :\
After now actually using it myself, this build is even more bullshit. Makes me sad, I'm going to be playing Nunu top for free wins instead of Jayce top for fun :\
I played smash's build from the jungle yesterday. After losing blue to an invade and a horribly coordinated team, I ended up going 4-0-2 and getting grail in 16 minutes. Then our Ashe whined that I never went bot (they were always pushed, were doing fine, and top needed my help a lot more - also did I mention I was 4-0-2?) Ended up like 9-5-17 or something after she decided to just jungle all game, effectively making it a 4v5. Took over an hour, ended up with a full build (Grail, FH, WotA, Deathcap, Void Staff, sell boots for RoA and spam W) and carried to victory. Nunu too stronk. I'd recommend running the same build out of the jungle if you're mid-low elo and someone else calls top.
Man, I saw Doomtorobo running nunu top on some streams, he makes nunu look so weak lol. Smash's build seems so much better than his triple dorans and gp10 build lol.
Boot 1 hp 2 mana pots is so important for early power plays. If this wasn't mentioned earlier I'd still be running boots 3hp pots like a chump.
I also liked starting purple side. The blog post mentioned taking golems early, I wouldn't have thought of it despite mainly jungling and knowing that most junglers don't take golems for quite some time. That extra exp and early gold so good.
On August 01 2012 14:59 goldenkrnboi wrote: smash, if i may, i was doing random lolking surfing and i looked you up. why is there 5 losses in a row as nunu? is there something flawed with nunu top or is it just one of those soloqueue drops?
Eh, it happens.
Loss 1 was our Varus being tiny and their Amumu being absolutely huge. I had to lane vs. Lee which is somewhat tough, but the lane was kinda a wash except that mumu kept getting away with blowing his ults and flashes to kill me top without my team being able to pull ahead in laning from that. Loss 2 was Jungle Ali camping until Darius had a lead, which is just GG because Darius with a lead will 1 combo anyone. Why the fuck wouldn't you ban Ali!?!?!? Also our Volibear was a dick who ruined moral by bitching everyone out for the stupidest shit. He kept bitching at me for not snowballing Darius when Darius was standing like 1100 range away, it was absurd. Loss 3 was me picking Nunu into Vlad, which wasn't smart when our jungle was Malphite and theirs was Nautilus. Malphite didn't bother coming vs. Vlad on my tower with his double buff and exhaust up and instead went mid and got picked off for first blood, which ultimately left us with no jungle control. Nunu vs. Vlad requires jungle control, if Vlad doesn't have to worry about ganks at all, he wins. Loss 4 was like 27/3/14 Draven or some crazy shit like that, can't remember the last time I saw a bot lane get killed that many times. Also, jungle Ali again, how fucking hard is it to ban cow? Loss 5 was our Cass getting shit on by Morde and just generally being terrible.
It was just a bad streak of games, I should've dodged tbh, but I don't like dodging when I'm streaming. (Britney Laces, BRANDINO and Sloth Fetish are all dodges for me when I'm not streaming)
Just saw Smash on Nunu as one of the featured games go 90cs and three levels up on a Rumble toplane. Guess the matchup's a bit easier with the Rumble nerfs, or was it just his double GP/5/no-revolver-rush build?
On August 02 2012 05:10 Haasts wrote: Just saw Smash on Nunu as one of the featured games go 90cs and three levels up on a Rumble toplane. Guess the matchup's a bit easier with the Rumble nerfs, or was it just his double GP/5/no-revolver-rush build?
Dat build just made a solo q teammate of mine cry for an entire game. Was fuckin retarded. Fuckin hated listening to him just whine all game about how its impossible to stop and shit.
Also, if you get warned, lemme know who did it so I can go complain about shitty moderation.
I like how people are all surprised about this. Nunu's entire kit is around being an uncatchable asshole with good ranged harass and some of the stupidest sustain in the game. Then Smash goes "well I'll build gp10s and Chalice and just be as asshole top", and people suddenly realize it's bullshit.
Sometimes the most obvious solutions are the funniest.
On August 02 2012 05:54 Requizen wrote: I like how people are all surprised about this. Nunu's entire kit is around being an uncatchable asshole with good ranged harass and some of the stupidest sustain in the game. Then Smash goes "well I'll build gp10s and Chalice and just be as asshole top", and people suddenly realize it's bullshit.
Sometimes the most obvious solutions are the funniest.
well, if it's so damn obvious, why was I the only one abusing it in high level games after 3 weeks of remade nunu?
EDIT: I mean, sure, in retrospect, it's a straightforward solution to nunu's problems, but I dunno if saying it's obvious is necessarily fair.
On August 02 2012 05:54 Requizen wrote: I like how people are all surprised about this. Nunu's entire kit is around being an uncatchable asshole with good ranged harass and some of the stupidest sustain in the game. Then Smash goes "well I'll build gp10s and Chalice and just be as asshole top", and people suddenly realize it's bullshit.
Sometimes the most obvious solutions are the funniest.
well, if it's so damn obvious, why was I the only one abusing it in high level games after 3 weeks of remade nunu?
EDIT: I mean, sure, in retrospect, it's a straightforward solution to nunu's problems, but I dunno if saying it's obvious is necessarily fair.
Hey man rainmong played nunu top way before you, he da best cuz he build a rylais on nunu. Gotta have moar slow. How does vlad do against nunu with all his sustain and all his pushing?
On August 02 2012 05:54 Requizen wrote: I like how people are all surprised about this. Nunu's entire kit is around being an uncatchable asshole with good ranged harass and some of the stupidest sustain in the game. Then Smash goes "well I'll build gp10s and Chalice and just be as asshole top", and people suddenly realize it's bullshit.
Sometimes the most obvious solutions are the funniest.
well, if it's so damn obvious, why was I the only one abusing it in high level games after 3 weeks of remade nunu?
EDIT: I mean, sure, in retrospect, it's a straightforward solution to nunu's problems, but I dunno if saying it's obvious is necessarily fair.
Hey man rainmong played nunu top way before you, he da best cuz he build a rylais on nunu. Gotta have moar slow. How does vlad do against nunu with all his sustain and all his pushing?
Depends highly on junglers. Can really go either way, probably small edge to vlad, but idk, I've never played the matchup without the jungle being something stupidly lopsided like Ali for Vlad and Voli for me .
Not saying it's obvious to figure out, nor that I could have done it on my own, just that it shouldn't be surprising. People know super sustainable champs are stupid top (Udyr, WW top picks, Vlad and other mana-less mages to an extent), and Nunu has that + ranged harass and a "don't gank me bro" steroid.
Like, I look at that kit plus the items you build, and after 3 seconds of thinking realize "oh yeah, that's actually bullshit". But apparently most people don't believe it until they get fucked with it, which makes me laugh a bit.
I'm still having trouble sometimes where I'm technically winning the lane (narrowly), but I feel like I can't really push my advantage much with Nunu because I can't commit to 1v1s against bursty opponents. So if they attack, I snowball, walk away, wait for e to get off cooldown; is that the best I can do?
I had trouble with GP and Darius like this. GP was a stalled lane for a few levels, but eventually he'd always force a longer trade if I tried to snowball (he'd eat oranges and just right-click me). Darius got an early invade kill and is lane he just zoned me from farming. Is there any replay on what the right play style with Mogwai's build is? (Some lanes are ridiculously easy -- Jax in particular looks incredibly frustrating for the other player.)
I'm still having trouble sometimes where I'm technically winning the lane (narrowly), but I feel like I can't really push my advantage much with Nunu because I can't commit to 1v1s against bursty opponents. So if they attack, I snowball, walk away, wait for e to get off cooldown; is that the best I can do?
I had trouble with GP and Darius like this. GP was a stalled lane for a few levels, but eventually he'd always force a longer trade if I tried to snowball (he'd eat oranges and just right-click me). Darius got an early invade kill and is lane he just zoned me from farming. Is there any replay on what the right play style with Mogwai's build is? (Some lanes are ridiculously easy -- Jax in particular looks incredibly frustrating for the other player.)
You're forgeting to nom creeps
and darius snowballs hard. If they try to hard engage, just kite. You're nunu.
I can't see Daruis being too strong vs him. No range, no speed, no dash = EW and laugh all day. Even if he pulls you, you should never be far from the wave to eat something.
GP sounds like it'd be a deadlock lane. You both have speed, he'll orange your snowball, you'll consume his Qs. Nunu should win by GP running oom first, though.
Vlad? Dunno, I have no idea how to counter that guy or even how he works. He's like some kind of voodoo witch doctor who eats your butt.
On August 02 2012 05:54 Requizen wrote: I like how people are all surprised about this. Nunu's entire kit is around being an uncatchable asshole with good ranged harass and some of the stupidest sustain in the game. Then Smash goes "well I'll build gp10s and Chalice and just be as asshole top", and people suddenly realize it's bullshit.
Sometimes the most obvious solutions are the funniest.
well, if it's so damn obvious, why was I the only one abusing it in high level games after 3 weeks of remade nunu?
EDIT: I mean, sure, in retrospect, it's a straightforward solution to nunu's problems, but I dunno if saying it's obvious is necessarily fair.
I think it's more apt to say that if more than 0.01% of the best players actually experimented with non-standard stuff, these sorts of builds or OP champions would be discovered far faster.
On August 02 2012 08:17 Slusher wrote: well it's over now, between streams and my own games, Nunu top has been in like 75% of the games I've seen today.
So laned a Darius, wasn't even close, you harass him quite a bit before he is level 3, and he can't damage you until he is level 3 at least, even then if he pulls you, just BB+iceball him, q away his q, he lost the trade. Once you hit 6, when he pulls you, you just ult and he dies in a fire... or rather freezes to death. At the least it burns his flash.
GP was a bit hard, you outharass him early, but he is still able to farm acceptably, and when you get ganked, if the jungler isn't an autoattacking one, your ice ball just is not that handy. Still think you have an advantage, though.
Vlad might be an issue, but I think you can manage to break his sustain, or at least mess with his farm.
Irelia was a bit of a problem for me, with her built in cc reduction, and high health regen she was able to stack MR (2 mantles in 1 game, negatron in game 2, but perhaps I was just not warding well, one of the games I died to a Riven gank and then my team folded to riven ganks while I outlaned Irelia for a while. Other game I was playing too cocky and trying to fight ire with her w going. But I'm still not sure if it was just the lack of any jungle intervention (pass up on free kills) that caused me to have an even lane.
vs Vlad I've noticed that you either out poke him or out cs him, but never both like you do in all the other lanes. It still takes a good jungler to win the lane, but you never really lose it if you don't try to both fight AND cs
Laning against Yorick is pretty funny. You outsustain him, but dps on both sides is pretty low. He bought chalice first though, which delayed the inevitable getting pushed out of lane. Took me ages to run him out of mana, even when spamming everything on CD.
On August 02 2012 12:42 bobbob wrote: All you do is save consume for the sustain ghoul. Then he just doesnt sustain enough.
He doesn't sustain enough, but when he's sitting under tower, it takes quite a while for the snowball vs healing ghoul to dps him down, even eating the ghoul =(
Isn't farming equally against nunu a win for vlad? I haven't faced one yet, but I wouldn't pick nunu against him. Even when I've romped in lane I don't feel that much like superman (just super-support man). Its still a win, ofc because you either force a jungle camp, or lategame is a 4v5. Doing something wrong or working as intended?
On August 02 2012 06:30 Requizen wrote: GP sounds like it'd be a deadlock lane. You both have speed, he'll orange your snowball, you'll consume his Qs. Nunu should win by GP running oom first, though.
Also, his oranges have a far longer cd then your e, so even if he oranges the first e, that gives you a 15 second window where he can't orange it again. I think it should be possible to zone him pretty hard just by throwing snowballs at him whenever he comes close to cs, and you don't really ever have to commit to a fight unless you want to, even if he oranges a snowball and directly runs at you, he should not even reach you before snowball comes off cd again. So in the worst case scenario you will get hit by a q, which you should simply be able to shrug off by eating stuff. He can never force a fight onto you, and you outsustain his harass, while he can't outsustain yours if he wants to cs and thus gets lots of snowballs to his face.
Depends. You have to cs too, you're melee, and he'll have his E for passive MS boost. Well, you've got BB, but how do you use it? I tend to only use it when they become hard to catch (hi Teemo) or I know I'll get ganked often, so I don't have the perma-MS buff.
On August 02 2012 12:16 Amui wrote: Laning against Yorick is pretty funny. You outsustain him, but dps on both sides is pretty low. He bought chalice first though, which delayed the inevitable getting pushed out of lane. Took me ages to run him out of mana, even when spamming everything on CD.
Doesn't Yorick get 2-3 sustain ghouls in the time consume is on cooldown? I mean, if you do it perfectly, eating every third ghoul is a big hit to his sustain, but it doesn't stop him.
On August 02 2012 12:16 Amui wrote: Laning against Yorick is pretty funny. You outsustain him, but dps on both sides is pretty low. He bought chalice first though, which delayed the inevitable getting pushed out of lane. Took me ages to run him out of mana, even when spamming everything on CD.
Doesn't Yorick get 2-3 sustain ghouls in the time consume is on cooldown? I mean, if you do it perfectly, eating every third ghoul is a big hit to his sustain, but it doesn't stop him.
At low levels it's 16 vs 10. But consume gets -2sec per level, Omen only gets -1 sec per level. Even at the start he only gets 1 sustain ghoul while consume is on CD, and by the time you have a few points into Q, he only gets that if the timing is just right and he uses it immediately.
On August 02 2012 23:39 Alaric wrote: He maxes E first and you only level consume second, though. So you're at around 14s until level 8 (or 12.5 if you skip BB).
Pretty sure in the majority of matchups you want to skip bloodboil until lvl 8. There are a couple where the movespeed seems really key (watching smash play vs cho top made me think bloodboil @ 4 is really good in that matchup), but I think for the most part it's unnecessary.
On August 02 2012 23:39 Alaric wrote: He maxes E first and you only level consume second, though. So you're at around 14s until level 8 (or 12.5 if you skip BB).
Pretty sure in the majority of matchups you want to skip bloodboil until lvl 8. There are a couple where the movespeed seems really key (watching smash play vs cho top made me think bloodboil @ 4 is really good in that matchup), but I think for the most part it's unnecessary.
You're also opening 10% CDR, so like 11sec at level 4. That's not that bad vs his 9sec E CD at that level. You should be able to kite the ghoul (it's going to chase you around if you're visible) or dive into the bush (they nerfed its sustain from attacking minions) if consume is down. Just don't leave it whacking you when you're going for serious trades, and don't let him hit you with E without snowballing him.
Besides, even if the lane is a draw or a slight win for Yorick (i don't see how it could be a major win for yorick even with jungle involvement unless you're playing really badly - he should seriously be doing nearly no damage to you in lane that you can't nom off) Yorick is so useless in later teamfights because he makes you heal for like 900 every 5 seconds. And if you nom his ult and the clone zombie dies (let's say it's a 1.5k hp ad carry... nom + snowball is most of that.) then no res will happen for his ult target.
On August 02 2012 23:39 Alaric wrote: He maxes E first and you only level consume second, though. So you're at around 14s until level 8 (or 12.5 if you skip BB).
Pretty sure in the majority of matchups you want to skip bloodboil until lvl 8. There are a couple where the movespeed seems really key (watching smash play vs cho top made me think bloodboil @ 4 is really good in that matchup), but I think for the most part it's unnecessary.
You're also opening 10% CDR, so like 11sec at level 4. That's not that bad vs his 9sec E CD at that level. You should be able to kite the ghoul (it's going to chase you around if you're visible) or dive into the bush (they nerfed its sustain from attacking minions) if consume is down. Just don't leave it whacking you when you're going for serious trades, and don't let him hit you with E without snowballing him.
Besides, even if the lane is a draw or a slight win for Yorick (i don't see how it could be a major win for yorick even with jungle involvement unless you're playing really badly - he should seriously be doing nearly no damage to you in lane that you can't nom off) Yorick is so useless in later teamfights because he makes you heal for like 900 every 5 seconds. REDACTED
On August 02 2012 23:39 Alaric wrote: He maxes E first and you only level consume second, though. So you're at around 14s until level 8 (or 12.5 if you skip BB).
Pretty sure in the majority of matchups you want to skip bloodboil until lvl 8. There are a couple where the movespeed seems really key (watching smash play vs cho top made me think bloodboil @ 4 is really good in that matchup), but I think for the most part it's unnecessary.
You're also opening 10% CDR, so like 11sec at level 4. That's not that bad vs his 9sec E CD at that level. You should be able to kite the ghoul (it's going to chase you around if you're visible) or dive into the bush (they nerfed its sustain from attacking minions) if consume is down. Just don't leave it whacking you when you're going for serious trades, and don't let him hit you with E without snowballing him.
Besides, even if the lane is a draw or a slight win for Yorick (i don't see how it could be a major win for yorick even with jungle involvement unless you're playing really badly - he should seriously be doing nearly no damage to you in lane that you can't nom off) Yorick is so useless in later teamfights because he makes you heal for like 900 every 5 seconds. And if you nom his ult and the clone zombie dies (let's say it's a 1.5k hp ad carry... nom + snowball is most of that.) then no res will happen for his ult target.
On August 03 2012 01:57 nosliw wrote: nunu vs zyra? Nom plants and EQ to win mid lane?
dunno, again, I watched smash on this one (so he prob has a better answer), but it looked like the slow on the melee plants + some misjudgment of zyra's damage looked like a real problem. Plus it's very easy for zyra to put up 2 plants at any given time, and I think noms don't actually kill the plants in 1 go (at least early on).
On August 03 2012 01:57 nosliw wrote: nunu vs zyra? Nom plants and EQ to win mid lane?
dunno, again, I watched smash on this one (so he prob has a better answer), but it looked like the slow on the melee plants + some misjudgment of zyra's damage looked like a real problem. Plus it's very easy for zyra to put up 2 plants at any given time, and I think noms don't actually kill the plants in 1 go (at least early on).
noms always take 2 bars from zyra's plants, so you still need to attack to kill them. BBing yourself and running around like an idiot made the matchup really easy, but when I tried to just trade and eat her damage, I ended up behind. It is really easy to dodge all her shit if your BBed though, so once I figured that out, it was EZPZ.
On August 03 2012 01:57 nosliw wrote: nunu vs zyra? Nom plants and EQ to win mid lane?
dunno, again, I watched smash on this one (so he prob has a better answer), but it looked like the slow on the melee plants + some misjudgment of zyra's damage looked like a real problem. Plus it's very easy for zyra to put up 2 plants at any given time, and I think noms don't actually kill the plants in 1 go (at least early on).
noms always take 2 bars from zyra's plants, so you still need to attack to kill them. BBing yourself and running around like an idiot made the matchup really easy, but when I tried to just trade and eat her damage, I ended up behind. It is really easy to dodge all her shit if your BBed though, so once I figured that out, it was EZPZ.
I get the impression that BB is actually best vs champs that work at range. Just having a billion movespeed and running around in circles, punching ppl actually makes it challenging to hit nunu.
On August 03 2012 01:57 nosliw wrote: nunu vs zyra? Nom plants and EQ to win mid lane?
dunno, again, I watched smash on this one (so he prob has a better answer), but it looked like the slow on the melee plants + some misjudgment of zyra's damage looked like a real problem. Plus it's very easy for zyra to put up 2 plants at any given time, and I think noms don't actually kill the plants in 1 go (at least early on).
noms always take 2 bars from zyra's plants, so you still need to attack to kill them. BBing yourself and running around like an idiot made the matchup really easy, but when I tried to just trade and eat her damage, I ended up behind. It is really easy to dodge all her shit if your BBed though, so once I figured that out, it was EZPZ.
I get the impression that BB is actually best vs champs that work at range. Just having a billion movespeed and running around in circles, punching ppl actually makes it challenging to hit nunu.
Well, that and skillshots in general. Your "sprint speed" should make it all but impossible for her to hit you with anything but plants and maybe the first portion of her ult. Same goes for any other skillshot-focused champ.
Should make him decent vs Kennen, I guess. You should never get stunned unless he blows ult, dodge shuriken and slow/run from ball of cocaine.
On August 03 2012 01:57 nosliw wrote: nunu vs zyra? Nom plants and EQ to win mid lane?
dunno, again, I watched smash on this one (so he prob has a better answer), but it looked like the slow on the melee plants + some misjudgment of zyra's damage looked like a real problem. Plus it's very easy for zyra to put up 2 plants at any given time, and I think noms don't actually kill the plants in 1 go (at least early on).
noms always take 2 bars from zyra's plants, so you still need to attack to kill them. BBing yourself and running around like an idiot made the matchup really easy, but when I tried to just trade and eat her damage, I ended up behind. It is really easy to dodge all her shit if your BBed though, so once I figured that out, it was EZPZ.
Once people start taking more move speed against Zyra, I'm sure they'll complain less. She's all skill shots (granted her ult radius is a bit too big), and it's a real pain in the ass trying to hit fast targets. If you get rooted, you take a ton of damage, but the exact same goes for shit like Morg and Ahri.
On August 03 2012 01:57 nosliw wrote: nunu vs zyra? Nom plants and EQ to win mid lane?
dunno, again, I watched smash on this one (so he prob has a better answer), but it looked like the slow on the melee plants + some misjudgment of zyra's damage looked like a real problem. Plus it's very easy for zyra to put up 2 plants at any given time, and I think noms don't actually kill the plants in 1 go (at least early on).
noms always take 2 bars from zyra's plants, so you still need to attack to kill them. BBing yourself and running around like an idiot made the matchup really easy, but when I tried to just trade and eat her damage, I ended up behind. It is really easy to dodge all her shit if your BBed though, so once I figured that out, it was EZPZ.
Once people start taking more move speed against Zyra, I'm sure they'll complain less. She's all skill shots (granted her ult radius is a bit too big), and it's a real pain in the ass trying to hit fast targets. If you get rooted, you take a ton of damage, but the exact same goes for shit like Morg and Ahri.
Not that this is the thread to talk about it, but I think the best counter to Zyra will be getting in her face after dodging E and Q. If all you're taking is plant damage, you should be able to out-trade her. Going off of your examples, you can't get close to Morg because of her ult and Black Shield, and Ahri will just dash away and use Fox Fire to murder you. Zyra's lack of natural defenses leave her as one of the more open AP mids if you can get close, imo.
On topic, this should actually make Nunu mid a decent counter to her, at least. Any time she gets too far forward, BB to dodge everything and then Snowball her to death. Ulting will make her blow her flash or force out her own ult, which you should be able to tank with Merc's/Chalice no problem.
Eh, are you sure that taking only plant damage lets you out-trade her? If her plants are behind you, you'll take considerable damage once she decides to pull back and you need to walk past the plants again. If they are in front of you, you'll take considerable damage just walking to her (...and then they'll be behind you). Killing them first gives her enough time to avoid more than one snowball. She also never *needs* to come into range if she's behind and just wants to cs.
I actually played Nunu vs Zyra yesterday. It worked better than I thought (bloodboil really does help), and I wouldn't mind playing that lane again, but it was nowhere as easy as many other lanes are (e.g. Kennen), and she's bursty enough to kill you if you do mess up.
I just don't see how you will "snowball her to death" in mid lane. She can harrass you from a much greater range thanks to plants, her cooldowns aren't very long, and her tower isn't that far if she does need to retreat. You can slowly outharrass her, but I'd not really say she's particularly vulnerable to Nunu.
On August 03 2012 03:16 bmn wrote: Eh, are you sure that taking only plant damage lets you out-trade her? If her plants are behind you, you'll take considerable damage once she decides to pull back and you need to walk past the plants again. If they are in front of you, you'll take considerable damage just walking to her (...and then they'll be behind you). Killing them first gives her enough time to avoid more than one snowball. She also never *needs* to come into range if she's behind and just wants to cs.
I actually played Nunu vs Zyra yesterday. It worked better than I thought (bloodboil really does help), and I wouldn't mind playing that lane again, but it was nowhere as easy as many other lanes are (e.g. Kennen), and she's bursty enough to kill you if you do mess up.
I just don't see how you will "snowball her to death" in mid lane. She can harrass you from a much greater range thanks to plants, her cooldowns aren't very long, and her tower isn't that far if she does need to retreat. You can slowly outharrass her, but I'd not really say she's particularly vulnerable to Nunu.
Well, if you are dodging all her spells with BB, and only end up taking plant damage, I would think you could get near enough to punish her missing with snowballs, and you can consume to heal back the damage from plants. I haven't played the lane personally, but Zyra is very punishable, you just need to trade intelligently, which the vast majority of people have yet to really learn.
While you are taking a lot of hits from the plants, they're basically health vending machines for your Consume. You're not going to instanom them, but the heal (especially once you get Revolver) should allow you to more or less ignore their damage. And again, the plants are magic damage, so stacking some MR (Chalice, Merc Treads, maybe defensive tree if you really want) makes them much less scary.
It's not easy, I'm sure, and if you get rooted bad things will happen, but he's probably one of the better champions against her at the moment.
I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
Do you just do that in the first few levels or do you keep punching people while trading after level ~6 or so?
I'm always worried that my AD doesn't scale well enough to risk eating an additional spell especially after people get their ultimate and have a lot more burst.
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
You don't really itemize ad, so hybrids don't feel as good as compared to, say, jungle cow. Nunu also does so much dmg he scales much harder on mpen.
On August 03 2012 04:49 bmn wrote: Do you just do that in the first few levels or do you keep punching people while trading after level ~6 or so?
I'm always worried that my AD doesn't scale well enough to risk eating an additional spell especially after people get their ultimate and have a lot more burst.
Smash is a real man. Punch EVERYTHING at EVERYTIME. this is why he plays JARMAN da 4th, and MANTHEON. Smash's ability to punch anyone in the face, at any time makes him #1 MAN.
In all seriousness, yeti arms pretty stronk w/ blood boil. Also even post 6, your consume should still out heal the dmg she can do to you after you punch her a couple times in the face
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
You don't really itemize ad, so hybrids don't feel as good as compared to, say, jungle cow. Nunu also does so much dmg he scales much harder on mpen.
Also, don't try punching Darius
Jungle Cow should use AS like everyone else because AS is king.
And like, are you really going to miss 3.42 MPen enough to pass up on 9 ArPen? idk, the more I think about it, the more I think I should be running split pen reds.
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
You don't really itemize ad, so hybrids don't feel as good as compared to, say, jungle cow. Nunu also does so much dmg he scales much harder on mpen.
Also, don't try punching Darius
Jungle Cow should use AS like everyone else because AS is king.
And like, are you really going to miss 3.42 MPen enough to pass up on 9 ArPen? idk, the more I think about it, the more I think I should be running split pen reds.
Hybrid runes too expensive, need to spend IP on champs.
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
You don't really itemize ad, so hybrids don't feel as good as compared to, say, jungle cow. Nunu also does so much dmg he scales much harder on mpen.
Also, don't try punching Darius
Jungle Cow should use AS like everyone else because AS is king.
And like, are you really going to miss 3.42 MPen enough to pass up on 9 ArPen? idk, the more I think about it, the more I think I should be running split pen reds.
Hybrid runes too expensive, need to spend IP on champs.
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
You don't really itemize ad, so hybrids don't feel as good as compared to, say, jungle cow. Nunu also does so much dmg he scales much harder on mpen.
Also, don't try punching Darius
Jungle Cow should use AS like everyone else because AS is king.
And like, are you really going to miss 3.42 MPen enough to pass up on 9 ArPen? idk, the more I think about it, the more I think I should be running split pen reds.
Hybrid runes too expensive, need to spend IP on champs.
I already have them though, sup wit it?
Psh, flash your fat stacks of IP cash more, why don't you.
I see everyone here saying he works great vs Darius... But I have faced 2 and just got tooled on. I feel like trading ice balls 24/7 works great early but he just gets to the point where he QEautoW ignite bursts you down and if you dont have flash and consume up you fucked.
On August 03 2012 05:15 Bladeorade wrote: I see everyone here saying he works great vs Darius... But I have faced 2 and just got tooled on. I feel like trading ice balls 24/7 works great early but he just gets to the point where he QEautoW ignite bursts you down and if you dont have flash and consume up you fucked.
amidoinitwrong
Yes, you're getting close enough for him to use his abilities on you. Snowball, run, and laugh. Works best with Nunu Bot.
On August 03 2012 05:37 Mogwai wrote: ok, w/e, this has gone on long enough, no one cares, let's stop plz.
K.
So how about that Nunu? Did Smash build in the jungle yesterday, can't carry retard top and mid hard enough. Was able to 1v2 every time I showed up, though.
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
You don't really itemize ad, so hybrids don't feel as good as compared to, say, jungle cow. Nunu also does so much dmg he scales much harder on mpen.
Also, don't try punching Darius
Jungle Cow should use AS like everyone else because AS is king.
And like, are you really going to miss 3.42 MPen enough to pass up on 9 ArPen? idk, the more I think about it, the more I think I should be running split pen reds.
Hybrid runes too expensive, need to spend IP on champs.
I have hybrid runes
I also have 46% crit damage for jungle shaco cheese
I also own like 20 champions (2 6300s)
Btw smash, you should test rune setups instead of theorycraft. I dunno about hybrid nunu, but it seems situational at best.
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
What about spell vamp quints? Starting out with getting like +50 health on your consume seems pretty good too.
On August 03 2012 03:42 Mogwai wrote: I mean, a lot of what happened when I figured the matchup out involved punching her in the face with my mighty yeti paws. Enough matchups are turning out like this that I find myself contemplating split pen Marks.
What about spell vamp quints? Starting out with getting like +50 health on your consume seems pretty good too.
2% spell vamp/quint, 6% spell vamp, 30 extra HP at level 1 consume.
5 AP/quint, 15 AP, 15 extra HP at level 1 consume and 15 extra damage on Snowball.
I dunno, AP seems better with this comparison, though I suppose spell vamp probably scales harder. idk, I think I still like AP better.
On August 03 2012 05:15 Bladeorade wrote: I see everyone here saying he works great vs Darius... But I have faced 2 and just got tooled on. I feel like trading ice balls 24/7 works great early but he just gets to the point where he QEautoW ignite bursts you down and if you dont have flash and consume up you fucked.
amidoinitwrong
Yes, you're getting close enough for him to use his abilities on you. Snowball, run, and laugh. Works best with Nunu Bot.
Snowball range isn't so much higher that darius cant use his abilities :/
The 2 Darius' I faced sat in the minions meaning I either had to snowball and run and not CS or Snowball and CS only when consume was off CD. Idk just seems like a hard matchup I would need to see it
On August 03 2012 07:08 goldenkrnboi wrote: vs. chogath. can it be anything other than a farmfest?
Depends on the Elo. At low levels you just kind of shit on him once you take BB at level 4. Dodge every rupture/Spikes AA, spam snowball to out-dps, consume to outheal.
fuck fuck fuck fuck me. i believe i have what i now call the doubting mogwai curse. i called him out on 5 dropped games as nunu, and now i have 3 in a row losses as nunu (4 in a row total) cause bot fed like 10-2 all 3 games. herp derp. here's to hoping i don't drop a 5th
so that this isn't a complete rage post: i kind of don't like how nunu top is so reliant on bot not completely fucking up. like, am i just playing mid-late game nunu wrong?
no, you are reliant on your bot lane not feeding uncontrollably. That's happened my last two games too and it sucks but what are you gonna do? It's not like any top lane can really overcome that shit.
On August 03 2012 07:08 goldenkrnboi wrote: vs. chogath. can it be anything other than a farmfest?
Depends on the Elo. At low levels you just kind of shit on him once you take BB at level 4. Dodge every rupture/Spikes AA, spam snowball to out-dps, consume to outheal.
Eventually i think chogaths gonna hit a point where you wont be able to kill him and he can ignore you(like he can almost every top)
On August 03 2012 05:15 Bladeorade wrote: I see everyone here saying he works great vs Darius... But I have faced 2 and just got tooled on. I feel like trading ice balls 24/7 works great early but he just gets to the point where he QEautoW ignite bursts you down and if you dont have flash and consume up you fucked.
amidoinitwrong
Yes, you're getting close enough for him to use his abilities on you. Snowball, run, and laugh. Works best with Nunu Bot.
Snowball range isn't so much higher that darius cant use his abilities :/
The 2 Darius' I faced sat in the minions meaning I either had to snowball and run and not CS or Snowball and CS only when consume was off CD. Idk just seems like a hard matchup I would need to see it
How is Darius able to do anything? All you do is throw an ice ball, if he pulls you, you immediately eat a creep, blood boil, walk away. He has now dealt like 50 damage to you from the bleed, and took like 150 damage from your ice ball. You can farm as long as he is slowed, which is like all of the time. All you have to do is make sure you are at full or almost full health. Once you hit 6, if he pulls you, just ult, you will outdamage him or force his flash.
On August 03 2012 07:08 goldenkrnboi wrote: vs. chogath. can it be anything other than a farmfest?
Depends on the Elo. At low levels you just kind of shit on him once you take BB at level 4. Dodge every rupture/Spikes AA, spam snowball to out-dps, consume to outheal.
Eventually i think chogaths gonna hit a point where you wont be able to kill him and he can ignore you(like he can almost every top)
This is true of the one game I played cho against nunu top in an inhouse. Even with a chalice+philo on nunu, if cho can last hit well, for nunu to push cho out of lane is pretty much impossible. If nunu snowballs cho constantly, as long as cho has some semblance of MR, just last hitting is enough to sustain him. If nunu wants to try autoattacking cho, silence + rupture and the damage from E means that nunu generally will come out behind and eventually will run oom consuming+snowballing on cooldown, even with his passive.
On August 03 2012 07:08 goldenkrnboi wrote: vs. chogath. can it be anything other than a farmfest?
Depends on the Elo. At low levels you just kind of shit on him once you take BB at level 4. Dodge every rupture/Spikes AA, spam snowball to out-dps, consume to outheal.
Eventually i think chogaths gonna hit a point where you wont be able to kill him and he can ignore you(like he can almost every top)
This is true of the one game I played cho against nunu top in an inhouse. Even with a chalice+philo on nunu, if cho can last hit well, for nunu to push cho out of lane is pretty much impossible. If nunu snowballs cho constantly, as long as cho has some semblance of MR, just last hitting is enough to sustain him. If nunu wants to try autoattacking cho, silence + rupture and the damage from E means that nunu generally will come out behind and eventually will run oom consuming+snowballing on cooldown, even with his passive.
I think I was that Nunu. Did you get some godly lee ganks? Even though I was behind and sucked at dodged screams/grabbing CS, around lvl 4 and lvl 7 I was able to whittle you down still and force you out of CS/XP range before lee or katarina would come to kill me. You had a super early glacial and negatron too.
I think between two players of equal caliber it should be in Nunu's favor early, and if he can deny Cho XP he should be able to outlevel snowball over Cho's passive sustain. Punches also trade favorably with Vorpal because of the AS buff/debuff. After Chalice I never had any mana issues either.
OK, Riven is legitimately pretty hard. Shield harass, never get off an ult, slow means nothing to 4 dashes and a stun. Their Udyr jungler never got near me, but Riven was a bitch. Once I got Athene/Glacial, it was a lot easier since I took little damage and Consumed always, but the very early game was a bitch.
Edit: Not that it mattered, though. Come late game you're rather tanky, and all you need to do is slow/BB/ult everything and you already are boss mode. Riven couldn't stick to our Ezreal, BB'd him for a penta. Goal!
On August 03 2012 05:15 Bladeorade wrote: I see everyone here saying he works great vs Darius... But I have faced 2 and just got tooled on. I feel like trading ice balls 24/7 works great early but he just gets to the point where he QEautoW ignite bursts you down and if you dont have flash and consume up you fucked.
amidoinitwrong
Yes, you're getting close enough for him to use his abilities on you. Snowball, run, and laugh. Works best with Nunu Bot.
Snowball range isn't so much higher that darius cant use his abilities :/
The 2 Darius' I faced sat in the minions meaning I either had to snowball and run and not CS or Snowball and CS only when consume was off CD. Idk just seems like a hard matchup I would need to see it
How is Darius able to do anything? All you do is throw an ice ball, if he pulls you, you immediately eat a creep, blood boil, walk away. He has now dealt like 50 damage to you from the bleed, and took like 150 damage from your ice ball. You can farm as long as he is slowed, which is like all of the time. All you have to do is make sure you are at full or almost full health. Once you hit 6, if he pulls you, just ult, you will outdamage him or force his flash.
Ah what are you smoking where Darius trade with pull is 50 damage from bleed?
Pull auto QW is 3 stacks of bleed and a bunch of damage
You can heal off most of that damage with Consume (never trade without minions around), and since he has nothing outside of pull and your slow > his, he shouldn't be able to stick to you. Plus, if he uses pull, just hit Ult. Outside of Apprehend, he has nothing which can disrupt it, so just start ulting on his face if he pulls you, guaranteed flash or fuckton of damage.
Shouldn't you lose to shen, or at the very least turn it into a farmfest? He can just shield off all your harass, you can consume his Q, he can freely ult because you can't really push etc(unless you'd run promote).
Yesterday i had one o those games against darius, he got completely zoned for the first 5 levels, then got a gank and dodged the kill in return to my death. From then on, he just destroyed me. As i mostly mess up to consume in the fights, i usually do bad in close duels, so that was my bad, but the stomp that resulted was very unpleasent. Problem i see is, you can bully them, but most other champs can far mso much better then you. Nunu does so little aa-damage that i miss a lot of cs early while harassing and champs like Darius can just aoe the whole wave. Same problem with farming under turret, if they manage to push you somehow (mostly due to you dieing) you lose so many cs, it hurrrrts.
If Darius wants to AoE clear the whole wave, let him, it puts him into dangerous ground given the fact that he has no escape skills vs someone who can permaslow him, as well as outrun him.
Darius is a lane where you take a second level of Q at 4, but really given the start of small golems or wraith little golem, you start roughly half a level up. This means you hit 2 first, so you can chunk him decently before he is level 2. For that matter, he deals no damage until level 3, since you can just consume a minion. Him using Q pushes the wave harder than you eating a minion. You should be able to establish an HP lead over Darius early because of the XP lead you have. Until his Q is level 3, consume outheals his Q. While his Q has a shorter cooldown, your E outranges his Q, and your Q definately outdoes the cooldown on his E. Therefore, if he wants to pull you, your consume will be ready way before he can pull you again. When he uses Q, you can simply freeze the lane, E when he gets close. If he pushes the advantage (and is practically diving someone with a permaslow), then what is your jungler doing? In general, you can just get aggressive with your E's when you have full health. Just never engage him (if his e is up) with less than full/almost full health post 6 (nom a jungle creep if needed)
On August 03 2012 16:21 JackDino wrote: Shouldn't you lose to shen, or at the very least turn it into a farmfest? He can just shield off all your harass, you can consume his Q, he can freely ult because you can't really push etc(unless you'd run promote).
i've only gone up against one shen and I beat him pretty decisively for like levels 1-6. His shield cooldown is pretty high until he gets it to level 4 or 5, so you can still harass him pretty darn hard.
On August 03 2012 16:21 JackDino wrote: Shouldn't you lose to shen, or at the very least turn it into a farmfest? He can just shield off all your harass, you can consume his Q, he can freely ult because you can't really push etc(unless you'd run promote).
i've only gone up against one shen and I beat him pretty decisively for like levels 1-6. His shield cooldown is pretty high until he gets it to level 4 or 5, so you can still harass him pretty darn hard.
I've only played him once as well, but this is pretty close to how my game went. He also, tried trading a lot early, which I felt I won pretty handily. I got philo/chalice first and he really just couldn't do anything. If the lane was pushed he would die and after like lvl 8/9 I was able to 1v1 him easily. I also took teleport. This was one of the games that I snowballed hard after 1 kill and carried with a ww jungle. Even without the kill I was winning in cs and I'm not su
Like i said, i had no problem playing vs the darius for the first levels, he was so zoned most of the time, that i could just farm the wave and be happy. But then he got a gank, my wave pushed into my turret and suddenly he was in even cs out of nowhere. From lvl 6 on, he traded quite well and then he could simply all in me.
I feel like top Nunu is very similar to Yorick, but even more annoying. You'll usually win lane, but you're highly reliant on your bot lane not getting destroyed during lane phase. As long as that happens, you win the game.
On August 03 2012 22:02 jcarlsoniv wrote: I feel like top Nunu is very similar to Yorick, but even more annoying. You'll usually win lane, but you're highly reliant on your bot lane not getting destroyed during lane phase. As long as that happens, you win the game.
Except slightly better, as BB is up way more than Yorick ult.
As to the Lee matchup, I haven't tried it yet, but I don't think he chunks nearly as hard as Riven does with her combo, and you can somewhat counter his passive AS bonus with Snowball. Plus, he only really has Q to get in range (well, E as well if you're on top of creeps I suppose, which is slightly less mobile than Riven's quadra-dash, especially if you dodge the skillshot. His sticking power is also tied to his slow, which BB + Snowball should let you get away a bit easier.
I can't imagine it's an easy matchup, but I don't see him as nearly as hard of a lane, imo.
Does Nunu's ult still go off if he diess? (i.e. does it count as an interrupt)
I've been trying to find the legit build because I'm doing Boots + 3 -> Philo -> Chalice / WOTA and it's fine, but I feel like it could be optimized some. I guess I can skip Philo with Chalice now that I think about -_- Anyone know what the best build is?
On August 03 2012 22:02 jcarlsoniv wrote: I feel like top Nunu is very similar to Yorick, but even more annoying. You'll usually win lane, but you're highly reliant on your bot lane not getting destroyed during lane phase. As long as that happens, you win the game.
Except slightly better, as BB is up way more than Yorick ult.
As to the Lee matchup, I haven't tried it yet, but I don't think he chunks nearly as hard as Riven does with her combo, and you can somewhat counter his passive AS bonus with Snowball. Plus, he only really has Q to get in range (well, E as well if you're on top of creeps I suppose, which is slightly less mobile than Riven's quadra-dash, especially if you dodge the skillshot. His sticking power is also tied to his slow, which BB + Snowball should let you get away a bit easier.
I can't imagine it's an easy matchup, but I don't see him as nearly as hard of a lane, imo.
You're GOING to be in the creeps if you want to CS, though, and it seems like he can use E to land a short-range Q. Also, lee putting a few points into W has a pretty ridiculous amount of sustain, plus he can possibly pick up sustain from items too if that's not enough. I think the real problem comes that he can outpush you, though (and not be afraid of snowballs being tossed at him) and then go roam. Lee's roam is pretty strong, after all.
The GP10s for nunu come at a timing that you're probably not going to kill your lane opponent outright, but aren't threatened by them either. For this reason, unless the lane is atypical for some reason, you'll have plenty of time for them to pay themselves off before you need "real items" (chalice glacial->grail FH)
If you're dying in lane, or a small boost in CDR/mana regen would let you kill your opponent (aka you're going even instead of making them completely miserable) then you can skip 1 or both GP10s in favor of getting your core earlier. A WW lane seems like a good example - once you have your chalice, you can drive him out of lane until he gets his, though I don't think you'd ever have the mana to beat his Qtrading without the chalice.
Smash, what do you think about going codex before chalice in lanes where you don't need as much mana? (like, their trading ability is shut down by snowballs, so you don't need to consume for health as often.) Still gives some mana, but you get earlier AP and CDR than chalice first.
I'm trying to go with 9/21/0 masteries vs the though matchups (Riven, XZ, Yorick). If they're still hard, maybe swapping the quints for Armor/MR instead of flat AP.
On August 03 2012 22:53 jacosajh wrote: Does Nunu's ult still go off if he diess? (i.e. does it count as an interrupt)
I've been trying to find the legit build because I'm doing Boots + 3 -> Philo -> Chalice / WOTA and it's fine, but I feel like it could be optimized some. I guess I can skip Philo with Chalice now that I think about -_- Anyone know what the best build is?
Looks like my Nunu games are just cursed, whenever I pick him lately (after going 16-8 with him) our bot lane decides to feed hard (typically around 0/6 at 7 minutes), and in team fights I simply have no target worth blood boiling, which really hurts our total damage output.
I also tend to not get many kills as Nunu even when I win the lane hard. Some of this is probably because I always take teleport/flash instead of ignite/flash. Does everyone think ignite/flash is a lot better? I always use teleport for an early back to get a quick item advantage without missing any waves; if the opponent didn't have to back already, he will after that, and I'm usually at a slight level advantage when he gets back. And later I often get to pick up (or at least secure) kills when bot is ganked or there is a dragon fight. But perhaps ignite really would be better.
Also, solo/duo baron with nunu is ridiculously fun.
On August 03 2012 23:08 jacosajh wrote: Discussed to death is exactly what I don't want. I wanted Smash's original build, and didn't know about that website. Thanks though.
It would be nice if OP was updated but discussion is good for understanding Plus someone asks that question every few pages.
Ignite/Flash is what I run, really helpful for picking up kills and trading vs sustain-y people like WW. However, you shouldn't expect a bunch of kills in lane. You don't really have the killing potential of other champs, but you will harass and out-sustain them to the point where they're useless later in the game. If you get kills, great, but you should win hard without them.
One thing a singed did to me when I was playing normals as teemo months ago was he just kept pushing the lane as I attacked him, headed back, and then came to lane before I'd had the chance to push it again. Play like a noob. You don't have to always freeze the lane. Lots of champs can (some need a few levels) push the wave to tower before nunu breaks through their health bar.
Ward cautiously and ask mid to ward their part if you're afraid of ganks.
On August 04 2012 01:29 obesechicken13 wrote: One thing a singed did to me when I was playing normals as teemo months ago was he just kept pushing the lane as I attacked him, headed back, and then came to lane before I'd had the chance to push it again. Play like a noob. You don't have to always freeze the lane. Lots of champs can (some need a few levels) push the wave to tower before nunu breaks through their health bar.
Ward cautiously and ask mid to ward their part if you're afraid of ganks.
Push lane, keep tabs on the jungler, and nom jungle creeps
Edit: SV on nunu? Cdr seems wasted if built last, but damn dat heal, mr , health is all good
I don't think I can play nunu top anymore. Recently my teams just rage too hard in champ select, it's like an auto loss. Like last game I had a duo q who didn't like the pick, so they decided to come top with me (ap trist and jax?) so I had to 2v1 bot lane. I ended up winning it against ashe / ali, cause nunu is a fuckin beast, but the damage was already done in the hearts and minds of my team mates. So iunno, i might stick to more well known tops until the world see's nunu's greatness as self evident it's pretty lame getting called a mother f-ing C*** and told to rot in hell in champ select, just for pickin nunu.
I'm only at ~1300 myself, but it has never been this bad. I usually get something like "nunu top? really?" or "i think nunu sucks top", but haven't seen any real trolling/raging yet save for some snarky comments when I don't do particularly well. The only people that really tilted were on the other team :-)
On August 04 2012 10:33 bmn wrote: Out of curiosity, at what ELO is this?
I'm only at ~1300 myself, but it has never been this bad. I usually get something like "nunu top? really?" or "i think nunu sucks top", but haven't seen any real trolling/raging yet save for some snarky comments when I don't do particularly well. The only people that really tilted were on the other team :-)
this was like 1300 elo. iunno man, teammates just seem to freak the fuck out.
On August 04 2012 10:33 bmn wrote: Out of curiosity, at what ELO is this?
I'm only at ~1300 myself, but it has never been this bad. I usually get something like "nunu top? really?" or "i think nunu sucks top", but haven't seen any real trolling/raging yet save for some snarky comments when I don't do particularly well. The only people that really tilted were on the other team :-)
In my normal Elo people just let me play Nunu top, no questions asked.
Man, if you thought Nunu with WotA was broken... Double WotA with Nunu and Vlad. Easiest duo baron ever, neither of us ever got below ~90%hp. Also pretty fun poking engagements at towers.
On August 04 2012 22:55 bmn wrote: Man, if you thought Nunu with WotA was broken... Double WotA with Nunu and Vlad. Easiest duo baron ever, neither of us ever got below ~90%hp. Also pretty fun poking engagements at towers.
You can solo baron once you complete your wota anyways
On August 04 2012 22:55 bmn wrote: Man, if you thought Nunu with WotA was broken... Double WotA with Nunu and Vlad. Easiest duo baron ever, neither of us ever got below ~90%hp. Also pretty fun poking engagements at towers.
You can solo baron once you complete your wota anyways
Can do it with just the revolver if you have your 40% CDR and a good amount of armor (like Tabi or FH complete)
How do you play against kayle? I had a lot of trouble and it might have just been the scenario. She got an early gank which kind of screwed me healthwise and I got zoned. Then my jungle came and I gave first for a 1 and 1. After that I just really couldn't do anything. So far this is the only game I've really had problems holding top down except for ww -_-.
Against Kayle if you're finding that you can't out-sustain her harass you might be better off 1. maxin consume over snowball and/or 2. getting glacial before finishing your grail (grab chalice then glacial then finish grail).
Generally though, I haven't had a problem with Kayle since spamming snowballs practically on cooldown along with consume means I outlast her. Trick is to spam mana pots instead of hp pots. Until you get your chalice/grail, every time you back don't be afraid to buy 1~2 mana pots or more. Also, you can always duck into the jungle and consume a few jungle creeps for regen.
Also make sure you're running the right runes. Mpen reds, flat armor yellows, flat mres blues, AP quints. If you're having trouble go 9/21/0, otherwise 9/0/21 is better.
On August 04 2012 22:55 bmn wrote: Man, if you thought Nunu with WotA was broken... Double WotA with Nunu and Vlad. Easiest duo baron ever, neither of us ever got below ~90%hp. Also pretty fun poking engagements at towers.
You can solo baron once you complete your wota anyways
Can do it with just the revolver if you have your 40% CDR and a good amount of armor (like Tabi or FH complete)
All you need is Grail, Glacial, Revolver and lvl 13. Don't even need blue lol.
On August 05 2012 02:28 101toss wrote: Nunu wins lane, loses game
I'm sad
Nunu wins games if your AD isn't a retard.
Unfortunately since this is league, odds are your ad is a retard :s
Also, I do run tp situationally (ie vs Shen), but usually I prefer fire hands just to win lane harder, and if your opponents aren't retarded (unlikely), soloing baron is risky as it is with wards and whatnot.
I think solo baron only applies if they were aced and you're the last man standing, or if wards are cleared and you know where they are while split pushing. In other words, above bronze elo, gl soloing baron whenever. Better to 2man it with your jungler anyways if you are sneaking it.
I was stomping Irelia hard in lane so she switched with Udyr and I wasn't able to experience playing vs Udyr at the earliest levels.
But he could just shrug off snowballs with his Tutle and ignore me, though he couldn't ever kill me either, except in one case where I was a little too careless and got bear->phage proc.
Does it just turn into a farm fest? Because Udyr farms much easier/faster than Nunu.
I was stomping Irelia hard in lane so she switched with Udyr and I wasn't able to experience playing vs Udyr at the earliest levels.
But he could just shrug off snowballs with his Tutle and ignore me, though he couldn't ever kill me either, except in one case where I was a little too careless and got bear->phage proc.
Does it just turn into a farm fest? Because Udyr farms much easier/faster than Nunu.
You shit on him. It's hard to farm with such a large as/ms debuff which also hurts udyr's sustain.
Also if udyr flash bears you (he won't bear you by running unless you fuck up hard), you can start ulting, and then he will be dead (or you can just nom, iceball, and kite)
If he maxes turtle he can handle your E, but he won't be a threat at all. You can just push lane and nom his jungle.
I'd also like to reconsider vamp quints on nunu. Smash argues that ~30 Hp on consume is not as good as 15 dmg on iceball and 15hp on consume. While there may be an early game advantage, mid-late game scales really hard, with 54 Hp off Q as well as his other abilities, as opposed to the flat 15.
It might be harder to kill people, but hey, you become harder to kill too. Playtesting I hope will tell me which is better, but as of now I'm not sure which quints are better.
On August 05 2012 05:17 Slayer91 wrote: You should rune for early game, the effect later is much smaller than early game and early game advantage eaisly makes up for a slight weakness later.
On August 05 2012 05:17 Slayer91 wrote: You should rune for early game, the effect later is much smaller than early game and early game advantage eaisly makes up for a slight weakness later.
So I should swap out mr/lvl for flat mr?
I run flat MR top lane vs magic poke, but for most other matchups you don't expect to take a lot of magic damage until MR/lvl has outscaled the flat MR.
On August 05 2012 05:17 Slayer91 wrote: You should rune for early game, the effect later is much smaller than early game and early game advantage eaisly makes up for a slight weakness later.
So I should swap out mr/lvl for flat mr?
I run flat MR top lane vs magic poke, but for most other matchups you don't expect to take a lot of magic damage until MR/lvl has outscaled the flat MR.
The question was more rhetorical, saying that the mid/late advantage outweighs the early game and as such mr/lvl is commonly used.
Of course it's all situational. Vs rumble or vlad I would run flat mr, just as how I would run vamp quints in farmy/sustain matchups or hybrid reds in matchups where I can trade with autos (ie not Darius). Except for armor yellows. Always flat armor yellows.
Well, it shouldn't be hard to win with Nunu after laning phase. Just stick to your AD carry, snowball whoever gets in his way and ulti when there's more than one person diving for him. And Bloodboil. He gotta be ultra-retarded to lose like that.
On August 05 2012 07:23 necrosed wrote: Well, it shouldn't be hard to win with Nunu after laning phase. Just stick to your AD carry, snowball whoever gets in his way and ulti when there's more than one person diving for him. And Bloodboil. He gotta be ultra-retarded to lose like that.
I usually win these games
The games I lose are either people getting caught or bot lane going 0-8 in around 10 minutes
I've played about 15 Nunu games now, and the only ones I've not dominated lane were against Shen running teleport, who although I bullied and harassed him hard stayed within 10 cs, and Vlad, who got tons of jungle support early and then turned the lane into a farmfest after 9. I did go Abyssal instead of Frozen that game, which helped come back from the jungle pressure, and when your jungle is someone like malph or Ali who wants Frozen, I like it as an alternative.
On August 05 2012 07:57 upperbound wrote: I've played about 15 Nunu games now, and the only ones I've not dominated lane were against Shen running teleport, who although I bullied and harassed him hard stayed within 10 cs, and Vlad, who got tons of jungle support early and then turned the lane into a farmfest after 9. I did go Abyssal instead of Frozen that game, which helped come back from the jungle pressure, and when your jungle is someone like malph or Ali who wants Frozen, I like it as an alternative.
You'll need to itemize 40 Cdr in some way. I'm thinking of SV/blue pot to get that, but then you're short an armor item (could buy an aegis with the saved money though). Either that or finish pick->dfg
On August 05 2012 07:57 upperbound wrote: I've played about 15 Nunu games now, and the only ones I've not dominated lane were against Shen running teleport, who although I bullied and harassed him hard stayed within 10 cs, and Vlad, who got tons of jungle support early and then turned the lane into a farmfest after 9. I did go Abyssal instead of Frozen that game, which helped come back from the jungle pressure, and when your jungle is someone like malph or Ali who wants Frozen, I like it as an alternative.
You should be able to beat shen until he gets significant amount of levels in his shield and shields your harass. Early levels of shield won't block snowballs completely and has a pretty long cd. Nunu should absolutely crush Vlad; if you get camped then well, you won't win any lane, but your team should be able to take advantage of that.
I've been skipping Kage's in a lot of games lately and I like the results of a faster core. Philo-Chalice-Shroud vs most AD and Philo-Chalice-Revolver/Codex vs AP. I don't miss the AP early since mana regen is damage and health for Nunu, and I haven't missed the income much either since there is a stronger early game without the 2nd GP10.
On August 05 2012 05:17 Slayer91 wrote: You should rune for early game, the effect later is much smaller than early game and early game advantage eaisly makes up for a slight weakness later.
The thing is, spellvamp is hard to itemize for when you're already getting a WOTA and are wanting even more vamp. Thing is, Nunu doesn't seem like he cares about more vamp post-WotA, so I'm not thinking the vamp quints are necessary. You already get LITERALLY 50% of your max health from 1 Q.
On August 06 2012 06:45 necrosed wrote: I love bloodboiling siege minions to push.
Promote and bloodboil = to push towers. Since it was kinda obvious I thought somebody already tried this. Can you promote the plants and turrets from zyra and heimer?
Yeah, Nunu is one of the few champs that Promote is actively a good idea on, as that BB'd minion dishes out the pain, feeds you money, and pushes that turret hard.
On August 05 2012 18:14 NovaTheFeared wrote: I've been skipping Kage's in a lot of games lately and I like the results of a faster core. Philo-Chalice-Shroud vs most AD and Philo-Chalice-Revolver/Codex vs AP. I don't miss the AP early since mana regen is damage and health for Nunu, and I haven't missed the income much either since there is a stronger early game without the 2nd GP10.
I've been playing with double dring in place of Philo/Pick recently and I like it in certain lanes. I think if you're not going double gold/10, you're probably best off just going double dring for early game strength.
On August 06 2012 23:04 Chexx wrote: had the same Idea a couple of days ago.
Promote and bloodboil = to push towers. Since it was kinda obvious I thought somebody already tried this. Can you promote the plants and turrets from zyra and heimer?
On August 06 2012 23:28 Rathwirt wrote: Yeah, Nunu is one of the few champs that Promote is actively a good idea on, as that BB'd minion dishes out the pain, feeds you money, and pushes that turret hard.
I don't know about using the quantifier 'good' here. Maybe 'not quite as bad' is better.
I played against a Darius today that seemed to really understand this matchup, and it made the lane really, really hard.
He walked past my ranged minions so that none of his minions were in the area, then pulled me and started to trade. His EWQ cancelled out the movespeed from my BB, so he got another auto in despite the bloodboil. I ran back to the creep wave, but then he came and just started attacking me and Q'd again in the creepwave before I had to just back because I would have died to another trade. He then pushed the lane hard into my tower and I hit 6 second, just barely escaping when he misjudged his ult damage (lol) and getting first blood when he tried to dive.
Except he came back to lane again and did the same thing, and still outtraded me despite my 400 gold advantage, and I lost the lane. After he got Merc Treads and I was forced to go Tabi, it also got even harder because his W slow was even outstripping snowball.
I used to think that this was a hard counter, but if you don't get early jungle help (say if your blue side, no level 2 gank) it becomes a really hard matchup to do well in.
On August 07 2012 00:35 upperbound wrote: I played against a Darius today that seemed to really understand this matchup, and it made the lane really, really hard.
He walked past my ranged minions so that none of his minions were in the area, then pulled me and started to trade. His EWQ cancelled out the movespeed from my BB, so he got another auto in despite the bloodboil. I ran back to the creep wave, but then he came and just started attacking me and Q'd again in the creepwave before I had to just back because I would have died to another trade. He then pushed the lane hard into my tower and I hit 6 second, just barely escaping when he misjudged his ult damage (lol) and getting first blood when he tried to dive.
Except he came back to lane again and did the same thing, and still outtraded me despite my 400 gold advantage, and I lost the lane. After he got Merc Treads and I was forced to go Tabi, it also got even harder because his W slow was even outstripping snowball.
I used to think that this was a hard counter, but if you don't get early jungle help (say if your blue side, no level 2 gank) it becomes a really hard matchup to do well in.
yea, this is one of my new dring matchups. Tabi + 2 drings asap, then chalice -> glacial.
I also am doing drings vs. vlad and renek, been thinking of using them vs. riven rumble too. I feel bad making nunu popular because it's drawing the really obnoxious top laners back out of the woodwork . At least he crushes Yorick though.
So i've been spamming nunu games today, and i'm really surprised by how easy it is to 2/3 man baron with just like glacial and chalice. even easiier if your jungler makes good use of BB. See enemy jungle bot? call your jungler and mid to baron np np.
Why would you build a lantern? I'd think that if you want the combination of damage + armor, glacial would be both cheaper and better, and fit your overall build far better, too. I doubt that prolonged trades vs renek/riven are a particularly good idea.
On August 07 2012 01:14 Simberto wrote: Why would you build a lantern? I'd think that if you want the combination of damage + armor, glacial would be both cheaper and better, and fit your overall build far better, too. I doubt that prolonged trades vs renek/riven are a particularly good idea.
Punching creeps for health, cost-effective armor and ward, and better counterjungling
On August 07 2012 01:00 101toss wrote: Vs vlad and rumble, y not spirit visage?
Vs renek/riven you could go dodge boots->lantern, although if you know it's riven top you could just switch to support nunu
because spirit visage is for treading water, you're still not going to be hurting those guys spending 1500 on no AP. rushing grail after double dring is better for making them respect you in lane.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who found Darius a hard lane, makes me feel a little less incompetent. :-)
Does anyone mind summarizing other lanes that are relatively bad for Nunu?
Besides Darius, I know that Riven isn't fun, I'd guess Renek isn't either. I suspect Xin might be a bad, but I wan't eager to try it when I had a chance to.
it's just another one of those matchups that goes really hard one way or the other. it's totally winnable, but a gank one way or the other tends to send the lane spiraling out of control.
could very likely be i'm just playing bad darius's, but whenever I did that matchup I'd just chug mana pots like candy and chuck snowballs at him every time they're off cd. If he tries to zone me from creeps I just snowball and run. He's got no sustain so after a while you're goin to wear him down. If I'm purple side, I'll just go to jungle and eat the golems for sustain if I'm getting zoned from creep too hard.
I wish wolves weren't so far from the lane when I'm playing blue side nunu. Easier to go eat an enemy golem, but that's so scary - not even feasible if they warded tri unless jungler like, shows up bot lane.
On August 07 2012 02:28 sylverfyre wrote: I wish wolves weren't so far from the lane when I'm playing blue side nunu. Easier to go eat an enemy golem, but that's so scary - not even feasible if they warded tri unless jungler like, shows up bot lane.
If they ward tri and converge on you, you can empire them from a jungle bush
On August 07 2012 04:06 Cloud9157 wrote: How would Swain fare against Nunu top? Just from an overlook of it, Swain actually seems like he could compete with Nunu from lvl 1 onward.
Nunu crushes him 6 ways from sunday pre-6. Post 6 it's a bit of a tossup but I find Nunu will outsustain and wear Swain down eventually but hot damn that bird heals a lot with his ult.
Oh, btw, this past weekend I had two games in which I had teammates go "nunu top is so bad" or something to that effect. This was at ~1950. I think your secret is safe for now.
A friend of mine likes Nunu a lot and plays him as support or mid usually. Incidentally, he started using Nunu top too, if he has to play top, but didn't have a refined build before. He "improved" dramatically after i told him about Mogwai's build. :D
Finally got to play vs a Yorick. I was so excited! But them their entire team decided to also be in my lane. First, Shaco ganks me, got killed. Second, Support Shen TP's top early to prevent me from double-killing Shaco and Yoroick (got Yorick though). Third, Shen Ults to save Yorick while Yorick kills me. After that, I forget exactly what happened in what order, but basically: Lane ruined 3 times by Shen, 4 Shaco ganks, 2 TF Ults on me all together. I even managed to push Yorick back when he was ahead of me, which cost me.
Also, that red ghosts CD is friggen ridiculous. Started to max Q after level 3 E to bring down my CD, which helped a lot, but was not enough since Yorick was worlds ahead of me by getting a silly amount of help from his team....
Still pissed off about this.. But at least me, Kog, and Blitz doom pushed vs their entire team through bot lane, causing a surrender. BB on Kog so good.
On August 07 2012 16:32 VashTS wrote: I'm so angry.
Finally got to play vs a Yorick. I was so excited! But them their entire team decided to also be in my lane. First, Shaco ganks me, got killed. Second, Support Shen TP's top early to prevent me from double-killing Shaco and Yoroick (got Yorick though). Third, Shen Ults to save Yorick while Yorick kills me. After that, I forget exactly what happened in what order, but basically: Lane ruined 3 times by Shen, 4 Shaco ganks, 2 TF Ults on me all together. I even managed to push Yorick back when he was ahead of me, which cost me.
Also, that red ghosts CD is friggen ridiculous. Started to max Q after level 3 E to bring down my CD, which helped a lot, but was not enough since Yorick was worlds ahead of me by getting a silly amount of help from his team....
Still pissed off about this.. But at least me, Kog, and Blitz doom pushed vs their entire team through bot lane, causing a surrender. BB on Kog so good.
Shaco, TF and Shen ouch. Never safe in the top lane
I am looking forward to trying Promote nunu for the lawls.
On August 07 2012 16:32 VashTS wrote: I'm so angry.
Finally got to play vs a Yorick. I was so excited! But them their entire team decided to also be in my lane. First, Shaco ganks me, got killed. Second, Support Shen TP's top early to prevent me from double-killing Shaco and Yoroick (got Yorick though). Third, Shen Ults to save Yorick while Yorick kills me. After that, I forget exactly what happened in what order, but basically: Lane ruined 3 times by Shen, 4 Shaco ganks, 2 TF Ults on me all together. I even managed to push Yorick back when he was ahead of me, which cost me.
Also, that red ghosts CD is friggen ridiculous. Started to max Q after level 3 E to bring down my CD, which helped a lot, but was not enough since Yorick was worlds ahead of me by getting a silly amount of help from his team....
Still pissed off about this.. But at least me, Kog, and Blitz doom pushed vs their entire team through bot lane, causing a surrender. BB on Kog so good.
Against Yorick I start Q and max Q first, that's the only way I've found that lets me reliably deal with his red ghouls without being pushed back. (Also, our jungler will love you if you help him get blue with Q.) Starting E instead of Q gets me too low on health and allows Yorick to zone me early on. (He can then deny cs while pushing the lane, and you'll miss cs if you have a large wave under tower, and he can still harrass you there.)
It's usually a stalemate until my first back -- if done right, Yorick should run out of mana a bit before you, giving you a cs advantage. Once I get challice (I skip gp10 here) I can start pushing Yorick back, once I get my first CDR item I can bully him, and once I get Athene's there's nothing Yorick can do in lane anymore. That's my experience anyway.
I also like using my ult rather often in this matchup. Yorick can't interrupt it, so any time when he's in melee range and there's creeps around I'll usually ult; if he doesn't flash he'll lose too much health to trade with you (he can't rely on red ghoul), and if he farms the pushed wave under tower you can keep harassing him or roam for a bit.
People tend to camp the lanes that are getting crapped on the hardest. If you're doing your job right as Nunu, the enemy jungler should be spending quite a bit of time top, and perhaps even the mid. If your jungler/mid is paying attention, they should come top to help, or get a free turret or Dragon out of the deal.
The difference with Nunu as opposed to other tops is, you're pretty damn fine when being camped. I mean, no one does well against 3v1 dives, but between Consume, Snowball, and Chalice, you can shrug off the occasional gank or harass easier than nearly anyone else, aside from maybe Riven's mobility or WW sustain. And because of how your kit works, even if you're camped and behind farm, you still bring a lot to the late game with Snowball and BB.
Meanwhile, while you're getting camped, your jungle/mid are free to take objectives or crush bot/mid lane. There are very few other tops that can boast both lane dominance and gold-independence in the way Nunu can.
Gotta love your team.. I fb jax on red lvl 2 and get all his buffs ( i mean first three reds and blues he wasn't really good at smiting ;D ) and then when i fail to steal baron due to taric stun, 3 premades flame me in chat " report nunu so bad its so easy to steal "
On August 08 2012 01:55 Requizen wrote: People tend to camp the lanes that are getting crapped on the hardest. If you're doing your job right as Nunu, the enemy jungler should be spending quite a bit of time top, and perhaps even the mid. If your jungler/mid is paying attention, they should come top to help, or get a free turret or Dragon out of the deal.
The difference with Nunu as opposed to other tops is, you're pretty damn fine when being camped. I mean, no one does well against 3v1 dives, but between Consume, Snowball, and Chalice, you can shrug off the occasional gank or harass easier than nearly anyone else, aside from maybe Riven's mobility or WW sustain. And because of how your kit works, even if you're camped and behind farm, you still bring a lot to the late game with Snowball and BB.
Meanwhile, while you're getting camped, your jungle/mid are free to take objectives or crush bot/mid lane. There are very few other tops that can boast both lane dominance and gold-independence in the way Nunu can.
On August 08 2012 01:55 Requizen wrote: People tend to camp the lanes that are getting crapped on the hardest. If you're doing your job right as Nunu, the enemy jungler should be spending quite a bit of time top, and perhaps even the mid. If your jungler/mid is paying attention, they should come top to help, or get a free turret or Dragon out of the deal.
The difference with Nunu as opposed to other tops is, you're pretty damn fine when being camped. I mean, no one does well against 3v1 dives, but between Consume, Snowball, and Chalice, you can shrug off the occasional gank or harass easier than nearly anyone else, aside from maybe Riven's mobility or WW sustain. And because of how your kit works, even if you're camped and behind farm, you still bring a lot to the late game with Snowball and BB.
Meanwhile, while you're getting camped, your jungle/mid are free to take objectives or crush bot/mid lane. There are very few other tops that can boast both lane dominance and gold-independence in the way Nunu can.
Nunu gets ganked
Double kill
That's the power of the empire
Oh dude, it's the best. Bait out CCs, eat a creep, channel ult. Snowball and kill everything. Sion lane was fun, I'd eat his stun, Shy has no CC, ult both and double kill.
i found AD sion the hardest matchup so far tbh his ult cooldown is on a low enough cooldown and shield is strong enough base that he can block every snowball and heal up the ones he does
and then in the end it's AD sion v AP nunu, so both champs are of only relative strength anyways. so that's okay i guess
i'm feeling a slight rework of nunu to keep his "stronger" feel but relegate him from "overpowered" status. i think they will turn snowball into a nuke-only skill and move the -AS/-MS to bloodboil. bloodboil will then work like infuse, where it can give +stats to an ally or -stats to an enemy. i think this will retain his strength but take away some of his ridiculous unchaseability
I doubt we'll see that drastic of a change in the near future.
I didn't really feel that bad vs Sion. Then again, I never straight engaged unless Ignite was up for his Ult, so I always won trades. Shield is 12-18 seconds base (depending on how long you hold it vs exploding it) against 6 second base snowball, and you build CDR unlike him. Plus, the shield isn't too big as AD, so popping it isn't a big deal. I just spammed E at him and ate when he stun-shield-auto combo'd me.
If he tries to force you to fight, ignite him after his ult and start ulting, he can't do anything about it.
i just run hybrid reds anyway for punching people in the face. sheen delays your core even more in 2 ways (costs more and doesn't generate income), so I don't think it's a good idea.
On August 07 2012 16:32 VashTS wrote: I'm so angry.
Finally got to play vs a Yorick. I was so excited! But them their entire team decided to also be in my lane. First, Shaco ganks me, got killed. Second, Support Shen TP's top early to prevent me from double-killing Shaco and Yoroick (got Yorick though). Third, Shen Ults to save Yorick while Yorick kills me. After that, I forget exactly what happened in what order, but basically: Lane ruined 3 times by Shen, 4 Shaco ganks, 2 TF Ults on me all together. I even managed to push Yorick back when he was ahead of me, which cost me.
Also, that red ghosts CD is friggen ridiculous. Started to max Q after level 3 E to bring down my CD, which helped a lot, but was not enough since Yorick was worlds ahead of me by getting a silly amount of help from his team....
Still pissed off about this.. But at least me, Kog, and Blitz doom pushed vs their entire team through bot lane, causing a surrender. BB on Kog so good.
Against Yorick I start Q and max Q first, that's the only way I've found that lets me reliably deal with his red ghouls without being pushed back. (Also, our jungler will love you if you help him get blue with Q.) Starting E instead of Q gets me too low on health and allows Yorick to zone me early on. (He can then deny cs while pushing the lane, and you'll miss cs if you have a large wave under tower, and he can still harrass you there.)
It's usually a stalemate until my first back -- if done right, Yorick should run out of mana a bit before you, giving you a cs advantage. Once I get challice (I skip gp10 here) I can start pushing Yorick back, once I get my first CDR item I can bully him, and once I get Athene's there's nothing Yorick can do in lane anymore. That's my experience anyway.
I also like using my ult rather often in this matchup. Yorick can't interrupt it, so any time when he's in melee range and there's creeps around I'll usually ult; if he doesn't flash he'll lose too much health to trade with you (he can't rely on red ghoul), and if he farms the pushed wave under tower you can keep harassing him or roam for a bit.
Yeah, I always start Q but max E first, but this game we invaded (which means I had to go E first) nabbing FB for myself and an assist from another kill. I thought I would shit on Yorick. Welp...
Didn't realize I needed to max Q until level 6, which is was a bit late by then.
On August 08 2012 14:15 Mogwai wrote: i just run hybrid reds anyway for punching people in the face. sheen delays your core even more in 2 ways (costs more and doesn't generate income), so I don't think it's a good idea.
Maybe sheen IS core on nunu, perhaps like jungle cow
Something just feels good when you iceball->sheen punch for even better trading, and none of the stats are wasted. Maybe it's a win moar item :s Of course I'll have to do more playtesting, but for now it doesn't seem completely retarded
On August 08 2012 14:15 Mogwai wrote: i just run hybrid reds anyway for punching people in the face. sheen delays your core even more in 2 ways (costs more and doesn't generate income), so I don't think it's a good idea.
Maybe sheen IS core on nunu, perhaps like jungle cow
Something just feels good when you iceball->sheen punch for even better trading, and none of the stats are wasted. Maybe it's a win moar item :s Of course I'll have to do more playtesting, but for now it doesn't seem completely retarded
What would you even remove from the current core, though?
On August 08 2012 14:15 Mogwai wrote: i just run hybrid reds anyway for punching people in the face. sheen delays your core even more in 2 ways (costs more and doesn't generate income), so I don't think it's a good idea.
Maybe sheen IS core on nunu, perhaps like jungle cow
Something just feels good when you iceball->sheen punch for even better trading, and none of the stats are wasted. Maybe it's a win moar item :s Of course I'll have to do more playtesting, but for now it doesn't seem completely retarded
What would you even remove from the current core, though?
I axed lucky pick (not really core though). You still get Grail and FH if no one else is.
On August 08 2012 15:04 VashTS wrote: Separate post for this:
Nunu wrecks Diana in lane.
Not surprised. Diana can't jump back out after going in, so she can't end a trade after tossing a bit of burst on Nunu. Nunu can extend the trades long enough to pop the shield, and Diana's shield is very mana hungry and not short enough CD (10 seconds CD counted from after the balls explode and refresh the shield or expire) Meanwhile the slows (both types) mean that diana will have a hard time getting much out of her passive.
Yeah i'm aware (read it more than once, ty smash), but wouldn't it be better to have that in the OP instead of the outdated old build? It gets confusing for new people trying to read that build and following the discussion currently going on in this thread.
Reporting in from 1300 elo EUW and I can say that the secret is safe, I fp'ed nunu top and managed to convince someone not to go ad kass but to take vayne. Went to check this thread and then someone took jungle veigar -.- Dodged.
IIRC, Smash uses hybrid reds (Destruction?) in a "Nunu vs mages" page, and the standard MPen in a "Nunu vs bruisers" page, as you don't really want to be trading autos with Darius or Xin or w/e. That said, it's always nice to get some cheeky autos in to prevent Malph or Garen passives from refreshing, huehue.
On August 09 2012 12:41 nosliw wrote: ok... What is the minimal item needed to solo baron? I had grail, revolver and glacial, and still died...
all you should really need is grail glacial and max level consume. revolver makes it safer since spellvamp on consume is just silly. frozen heart and wota/gunblade shouldn't be necessary.
On August 09 2012 12:41 nosliw wrote: ok... What is the minimal item needed to solo baron? I had grail, revolver and glacial, and still died...
all you should really need is grail glacial and max level consume. revolver makes it safer since spellvamp on consume is just silly. frozen heart and wota/gunblade shouldn't be necessary.
I must have not been max consume then... I tried this last night as well. I'm not sure if Baron bugged but he went berserk and was chunking my health for literally 6 seconds. Usually it takes you to half, then you consume and wait for it to come off cd but he just kept going and going. I had grail, glacial, revolver and i think a cloth and level 13 I think.
I tried Nunu top today and somehow i sucked TT. I start with Q then E (E>Q). But somehow I cant get far enough ahead. Maybe its a hero that does not fit me.
On August 09 2012 22:00 Chexx wrote: I tried Nunu top today and somehow i sucked TT. I start with Q then E (E>Q). But somehow I cant get far enough ahead. Maybe its a hero that does not fit me.
Nunu is braindead laning. If you can tell us what you're doing in lane I'm pretty sure I can tell you what needs fixin
On August 09 2012 12:41 nosliw wrote: ok... What is the minimal item needed to solo baron? I had grail, revolver and glacial, and still died...
all you should really need is grail glacial and max level consume. revolver makes it safer since spellvamp on consume is just silly. frozen heart and wota/gunblade shouldn't be necessary.
I must have not been max consume then... I tried this last night as well. I'm not sure if Baron bugged but he went berserk and was chunking my health for literally 6 seconds. Usually it takes you to half, then you consume and wait for it to come off cd but he just kept going and going. I had grail, glacial, revolver and i think a cloth and level 13 I think.
You have to kite around and avoid getting knocked up (don't stand on the green bubbles). Other than that, all I've ever needed is 40% CDR (usually from grail+glacial) and revolver. I feel like I could get away with it without revolver but I'm not completely sure.
Nidalee gave me some trouble tonight, though I think that had more to do with my positioning being bad. Also, I'm pretty sure she had a full AD page, becuase she had like, 125 AD with just Wriggles. That doesn't seem right to me, but it chunked the fuck out of my health.
On August 08 2012 14:15 Mogwai wrote: i just run hybrid reds anyway for punching people in the face. sheen delays your core even more in 2 ways (costs more and doesn't generate income), so I don't think it's a good idea.
Hybrid penetration runes are garbage IMO. They give 60% as much ArPen as ArPen runes and 60% as much Mpen as Mpen runes, only
a) ArPen and Mpen have increasing returns so getting a little bit of both is dumb, and b) Nunu deals so much more magic damage than physical damage vs. champions that even without the increasing returns consideration you'd want to take Mpen anyway.
I'd take 40% less flat MPen if it made my last hitting and auto harassing in lane easier, no contest. It's not like they do much late game anyway, they help your early game by quite a bit.
On August 10 2012 13:42 Requizen wrote: I'd take 40% less flat MPen if it made my last hitting and auto harassing in lane easier, no contest. It's not like they do much late game anyway, they help your early game by quite a bit.
The first 6 waves of minions have 0 armor, so your 9 ArPen are wasted against them. The next 6 waves have 2 armor for the melee minions and 1.25 armor for the ranged ones, so most of your Arpen is still wasted against them. The armor values for the next 6 waves are 4 and 2.5 for melee and ranged respectively, and beyond this we're at 10 mins of game time and the ArPen will be making very little difference for last-hitting anyway. I guess one or two hybrid marks (1 to 2 points of ArPen) could help for last hitting the minions that spawn between 4:30 and 7:00, but more than that is simply not that helpful vs. minions and you're far better off with pure Mpen vs. champions.
Trading 3mpen for 9arpen seems worth it unless you are against a Darius or something especially if you have ad/sheen in your build. You aren't playing nunu right if you aren't punching mages if you get the chance
It's a small difference, mpen reds are cool if you can't afford the hybrids
On August 08 2012 14:15 Mogwai wrote: i just run hybrid reds anyway for punching people in the face. sheen delays your core even more in 2 ways (costs more and doesn't generate income), so I don't think it's a good idea.
Hybrid penetration runes are garbage IMO. They give 60% as much ArPen as ArPen runes and 60% as much Mpen as Mpen runes, only
a) ArPen and Mpen have increasing returns so getting a little bit of both is dumb, and b) Nunu deals so much more magic damage than physical damage vs. champions that even without the increasing returns consideration you'd want to take Mpen anyway.
uh, well, yes and no. It actually depends a lot on the matchup whether you need to punch them a lot or not, but for instance, vs. Vlad, hybrid pen make a BIG difference in your effectiveness at making damage stick to him early in lane (which especially in that matchup is really important). I run hybrid on my nunu page that has flat MRes and Mpen on my page that has scaling MRes, as bruiser matchups rarely involve yeti fists, where mage matchups involve a furious flurry of yeti fists raining down upon them.
I have to say, jungle nunu with mobility boots and janna passive is stupidly fast. Literally just lane ganks bottom lane over and over since if you're at halfway or so, he'll get a snowball you before you can get anywhere near your tower. He's also about as annoying to catch as a jungle singed is. Tanky, fast and slows his pursuers.
On August 12 2012 06:51 VashTS wrote: Do you think the OP's build is efficient for jungling with Nunu?
It's outdated and comes from when hp quints were broken and jungle creeps were stronger
Flat hp quints? meh
How about the item build? That's more what I meant. I should have specified, sorry.
Oddone just played jungle nunu in IPL. Build was 3 gp10 into aegis/shurelia/zeke for aurabot nunu. That seems like an efficient build for the lower farm you get out of jungle compared to top lane.
On August 12 2012 06:51 VashTS wrote: Do you think the OP's build is efficient for jungling with Nunu?
It's outdated and comes from when hp quints were broken and jungle creeps were stronger
Flat hp quints? meh
How about the item build? That's more what I meant. I should have specified, sorry.
Oddone just played jungle nunu in IPL. Build was 3 gp10 into aegis/shurelia/zeke for aurabot nunu. That seems like an efficient build for the lower farm you get out of jungle compared to top lane.
He also does a semivariant of the Smash build, but with Shurelia instead of anything chalice related, thus costing less money. (jungle nunu isn't trying to harass someone out of lane, so he's not as ridiculously mana hungry.)
2-3 GP10s -> Glacial + Shurelia + Aegis -> FH.
Doesn't do the revolver/wota, but I think it'd be great if you can afford a wota after the FH.
On August 12 2012 06:51 VashTS wrote: Do you think the OP's build is efficient for jungling with Nunu?
It's outdated and comes from when hp quints were broken and jungle creeps were stronger
Flat hp quints? meh
How about the item build? That's more what I meant. I should have specified, sorry.
Oddone just played jungle nunu in IPL. Build was 3 gp10 into aegis/shurelia/zeke for aurabot nunu. That seems like an efficient build for the lower farm you get out of jungle compared to top lane.
I'm not sure about aegis on Nunu if your support is picking it up already. Double aegis seems only efficient if you push objectives with your team the moment you finish it, and that is hard to coordinate in soloq.
Kindlegems are amazing though, and let you tower dive all day.
On August 12 2012 06:51 VashTS wrote: Do you think the OP's build is efficient for jungling with Nunu?
It's outdated and comes from when hp quints were broken and jungle creeps were stronger
Flat hp quints? meh
How about the item build? That's more what I meant. I should have specified, sorry.
Oddone just played jungle nunu in IPL. Build was 3 gp10 into aegis/shurelia/zeke for aurabot nunu. That seems like an efficient build for the lower farm you get out of jungle compared to top lane.
I'm not sure about aegis on Nunu if your support is picking it up already. Double aegis seems only efficient if you push objectives with your team the moment you finish it, and that is hard to coordinate in soloq.
Kindlegems are amazing though, and let you tower dive all day.
I'd rather the jungler finish Aegis at 15-20 mins than wait for a 25-30 minute support Aegis.
On August 12 2012 06:51 VashTS wrote: Do you think the OP's build is efficient for jungling with Nunu?
It's outdated and comes from when hp quints were broken and jungle creeps were stronger
Flat hp quints? meh
How about the item build? That's more what I meant. I should have specified, sorry.
Oddone just played jungle nunu in IPL. Build was 3 gp10 into aegis/shurelia/zeke for aurabot nunu. That seems like an efficient build for the lower farm you get out of jungle compared to top lane.
He also does a semivariant of the Smash build, but with Shurelia instead of anything chalice related, thus costing less money. (jungle nunu isn't trying to harass someone out of lane, so he's not as ridiculously mana hungry.)
2-3 GP10s -> Glacial + Shurelia + Aegis -> FH.
Doesn't do the revolver/wota, but I think it'd be great if you can afford a wota after the FH.
I've seen people do this on alot of jungles before anyone even thought of playing nunu top, with the smash build. Glacial first could prob be substituted for a negatron or something if AP was getting fed tho
On August 12 2012 06:51 VashTS wrote: Do you think the OP's build is efficient for jungling with Nunu?
It's outdated and comes from when hp quints were broken and jungle creeps were stronger
Flat hp quints? meh
How about the item build? That's more what I meant. I should have specified, sorry.
Oddone just played jungle nunu in IPL. Build was 3 gp10 into aegis/shurelia/zeke for aurabot nunu. That seems like an efficient build for the lower farm you get out of jungle compared to top lane.
He also does a semivariant of the Smash build, but with Shurelia instead of anything chalice related, thus costing less money. (jungle nunu isn't trying to harass someone out of lane, so he's not as ridiculously mana hungry.)
2-3 GP10s -> Glacial + Shurelia + Aegis -> FH.
Doesn't do the revolver/wota, but I think it'd be great if you can afford a wota after the FH.
I've seen people do this on alot of jungles before anyone even thought of playing nunu top, with the smash build. Glacial first could prob be substituted for a negatron or something if AP was getting fed tho
I'd just like to say, Teemo is one of the biggest bags of shit I've had the pleasure of laning against. It's k, I just farmed and was more useful later on, but annoying nonetheless.
On August 15 2012 10:57 101toss wrote: I don't think nunu will be nerfed for a while
a lot of people I see playing Nunu top have terribad builds. just the other day I saw a guy get RoA as their second item after SV -.-;
I'd be surprised if Nunu goes untouched for a long time tho.
Yeh, I don't like RoA on Nunu top.
I do really like gp/10s into frozen heart, and then shurelya + raduin's gives 40cdr. I've noticed a lot of people going chalice, but I don't really experience much mana issues.
my laning phase as nunu basically consists of last hitting and spamming snowballs on cooldown. a big part of why Nunu is so good top is because he can spam snowballs that not only hit hard, but prevent the other guy from trading and is on a ridiculously low cd. in order to spam snowballs though, you need chalice.
If solo top Nunu has one core item, it'd be Grail.
On August 15 2012 19:21 Bladeorade wrote: Then your doing it wrong. Also teemo is ezpz. Spam snow balls til he low flash at him press r.
I dunno man, I was, and then he just started autoing me and did so much damage my level 2 Consume couldn't keep up. Dat poison scary, but I think it was just a cheese rune/mastery setup to have a fuckton of damage or something.
On August 12 2012 06:51 VashTS wrote: Do you think the OP's build is efficient for jungling with Nunu?
It's outdated and comes from when hp quints were broken and jungle creeps were stronger
Flat hp quints? meh
How about the item build? That's more what I meant. I should have specified, sorry.
Oddone just played jungle nunu in IPL. Build was 3 gp10 into aegis/shurelia/zeke for aurabot nunu. That seems like an efficient build for the lower farm you get out of jungle compared to top lane.
He also does a semivariant of the Smash build, but with Shurelia instead of anything chalice related, thus costing less money. (jungle nunu isn't trying to harass someone out of lane, so he's not as ridiculously mana hungry.)
2-3 GP10s -> Glacial + Shurelia + Aegis -> FH.
Doesn't do the revolver/wota, but I think it'd be great if you can afford a wota after the FH.
I've seen people do this on alot of jungles before anyone even thought of playing nunu top, with the smash build. Glacial first could prob be substituted for a negatron or something if AP was getting fed tho
grail has mr... Grail+Mercs is usually sufficient magic resist to survive fights np, especially since Nunu has one of the highest base hp in the game and consume gives you some more EHP if there are minions around.
haypot plays a lot of jangle nunu and he runs some like, BoM, Philo, Oracles, HoG opening into Aegis/FH/Wit's option with BV/Randuin's/Locket finishes.
so no X-man claws, spending too much on too little that actually halps nunu. the reason Wit's is useful is because of the lack of good MRes options, with Wriggle's, he has too many good armor options to go for it (plus the sustain is redundant).
On August 15 2012 19:21 Bladeorade wrote: Then your doing it wrong. Also teemo is ezpz. Spam snow balls til he low flash at him press r.
I spam snowball off CD but still do not run out of mana... I auto-attack the wave down like a boss though, and my mid wards river so I'm safe vs. most junglers. Had some bad experiences with Malphites who walk up to me from lane like a boss and R my face, but generally you can play like that.
On August 15 2012 19:21 Bladeorade wrote: Then your doing it wrong. Also teemo is ezpz. Spam snow balls til he low flash at him press r.
I spam snowball off CD but still do not run out of mana... I auto-attack the wave down like a boss though, and my mid wards river so I'm safe vs. most junglers. Had some bad experiences with Malphites who walk up to me from lane like a boss and R my face, but generally you can play like that.
On August 15 2012 19:21 Bladeorade wrote: Then your doing it wrong. Also teemo is ezpz. Spam snow balls til he low flash at him press r.
I spam snowball off CD but still do not run out of mana... I auto-attack the wave down like a boss though, and my mid wards river so I'm safe vs. most junglers. Had some bad experiences with Malphites who walk up to me from lane like a boss and R my face, but generally you can play like that.
Gandhi won't allow me to play any other jungler than Nunu atm.
I go full tank out of the jungle. I rather enjoy Sunfire, but Aegis and Frozen Heart (Glacial Shroud) are both really strong early buys. Tank Nunu doesn't get much out of CDR past lane phase, but he has really high base HP so FH and Aegis both go well on him. Sunfire gives you a bit of added damage since you can stay glued pretty easily to a priority target, but struggle to do much with it.
That said, you spend much of the time just playing peeler for your carries, so Sunfire's usefulness is often diminished.
I've tried Wits and MBR but neither really did much for me.
Banshee Veil can be really useful on Nunu as you can double the amount of CC they need to waste to block your ult, making it that much harder to reach your carries. It also helps you to run up and slow something and set up a strong follow-up or counter-initiate.
Given general team comps I usually just end up with Mercs + Aegis + Scaling MR runes for my MR and then FH and Randuins.
Worry mostly about maximizing the damage your carries do / minimizing what they receive rather than trying to do the sick deeps with your ult.
On August 15 2012 10:57 101toss wrote: I don't think nunu will be nerfed for a while
a lot of people I see playing Nunu top have terribad builds. just the other day I saw a guy get RoA as their second item after SV -.-;
I'd be surprised if Nunu goes untouched for a long time tho.
Yeh, I don't like RoA on Nunu top.
I do really like gp/10s into frozen heart, and then shurelya + raduin's gives 40cdr. I've noticed a lot of people going chalice, but I don't really experience much mana issues.
Also, hooray for solo baron.
Don't need randuin, get the last few % from masteries. (do you really need ANOTHER AS slow? If so, you can still get randuin i guess.)
What is the best way to do double golems as nunu top?
I feel that on blue side, its rather simple to run through their jungle and eat at least the big wraith, and maybe the small golem, too. On purple side, i appear to fail pretty hard at doing doubles and end up at about 50% hps afterwards, which can not be good.
So far, i usually hit small one twice, eat big one, try to kite and hit the small one a bit, eat big one again, then finish the small one off. But i think i am just to bad at kiting them. Probably need to learn how far i can go without them resetting.
You should end up @ like 75-80% HP. Attack the large one twice, consume the small one, attack the big one a bit, but spend a lot of time kiting, you only want to eat as many hits as you need to eat in order to hit it enough to get it to just under 500 HP for your consume. So then you show up on lane before any creeps are dead, last hit 2 melee minions, eat then last melee minion, ding 2 and smack the opponent with your formidable yeti paws and snowballs.
On August 21 2012 04:45 Mogwai wrote: You should end up @ like 75-80% HP. Attack the large one twice, consume the small one, attack the big one a bit, but spend a lot of time kiting, you only want to eat as many hits as you need to eat in order to hit it enough to get it to just under 500 HP for your consume. So then you show up on lane before any creeps are dead, last hit 2 melee minions, eat then last melee minion, ding 2 and smack the opponent with your formidable yeti paws and snowballs.
I also drink my health pot to keep myself over half health when I get to lane, maybe I'm doing it wrong?
After some training, i, too, am able to finish at about 75% health
You just need to know how far you can run with the golem without resetting it. It is pretty far in the direction of you lane, and not very far in the other direction. Punching big and consuming small also works better then punching small and consuming big.
So if we're purple then I'll just do small golems at level 1, and if I'm blue and their jungler starts blue then I take big wraith and small golem (as with the guide, etc etc). What do you guys do when you're blue side and their jungler starts red?
On August 22 2012 04:30 OnceKing wrote: So if we're purple then I'll just do small golems at level 1, and if I'm blue and their jungler starts blue then I take big wraith and small golem (as with the guide, etc etc). What do you guys do when you're blue side and their jungler starts red?
You might be able to sneak to small golem, or have your team come with you if you want the wraith (maybe even red)
On August 22 2012 04:30 OnceKing wrote: So if we're purple then I'll just do small golems at level 1, and if I'm blue and their jungler starts blue then I take big wraith and small golem (as with the guide, etc etc). What do you guys do when you're blue side and their jungler starts red?
I have balls the size of watermellons so I take their small gols =3.
Because your jungler will hate you. Also, killing the big one is not significantly faster then killing both of them. You cant stand there and tank them and punch them, especially with both of them alive. So you will always need a second consume, and in that case, you might as well consume the small one first so you only have to deal with one of them for those 15 seconds. And if you are talking about the enemy golems, same problem. You can just run up and eat the small one instantly, and you probably don't want to stay in their jungle for ages kiting their golems back and forth waiting for consume to come of cd to eat the big one a second time.
On August 22 2012 05:08 Bladeorade wrote: just faced diana mid as nunu. she got tooled on
the best is at 6 she comes to do her combo, act like your running away, eat a creep, press R.
She just kind of stood there like... oh shit now what do I do. Then she got 1 shot.
Interesting, I thought this would be a hard match up for Nunu - because Diana is tanky and can survive quite a few snowballs, and she can shove the lane 24/7
Nidalee's total bullshit so I just max Q first and outsustain her. I can't really seem to make her budge and pounce just destroys your ult, so yea, I just treat it as a free farm lane now.
She was annoying as fuck the one time I laned v her. Max consume, realize that you'll never catch her, and try not to let her all-in you, or you're dead.
On August 21 2012 04:45 Mogwai wrote: You should end up @ like 75-80% HP. Attack the large one twice, consume the small one, attack the big one a bit, but spend a lot of time kiting, you only want to eat as many hits as you need to eat in order to hit it enough to get it to just under 500 HP for your consume. So then you show up on lane before any creeps are dead, last hit 2 melee minions, eat then last melee minion, ding 2 and smack the opponent with your formidable yeti paws and snowballs.
How do you kite melee vs melee? It's not like you can get free hits on the golem.
On August 21 2012 04:45 Mogwai wrote: You should end up @ like 75-80% HP. Attack the large one twice, consume the small one, attack the big one a bit, but spend a lot of time kiting, you only want to eat as many hits as you need to eat in order to hit it enough to get it to just under 500 HP for your consume. So then you show up on lane before any creeps are dead, last hit 2 melee minions, eat then last melee minion, ding 2 and smack the opponent with your formidable yeti paws and snowballs.
How do you kite melee vs melee? It's not like you can get free hits on the golem.
You only need to get the Golem below 500 HP, so you don't need to constantly smack the golem or get free hits on it. Just hit it/get hit by it just enough to get it to 500 HP, run around when you don't need to hit it, so it doesn't get to hit you, and then eat it when Consume comes off CD, that's what he means by kiting it.
I just did 2 games in a row solo top vs. Xin Zhao using Mogwais build and I have to say it wasn't very fair. In the first game I had a pretty consistent 50 CS lead over Xin, and in the second game after Xin died the third time he ragequit and I apologized to his team.
Point being, Mogwais build works v. well. That grail really makes the build, it lets you grab the chalice early to solve your mana issues and turn it into something powerful late game.
On August 21 2012 04:45 Mogwai wrote: You should end up @ like 75-80% HP. Attack the large one twice, consume the small one, attack the big one a bit, but spend a lot of time kiting, you only want to eat as many hits as you need to eat in order to hit it enough to get it to just under 500 HP for your consume. So then you show up on lane before any creeps are dead, last hit 2 melee minions, eat then last melee minion, ding 2 and smack the opponent with your formidable yeti paws and snowballs.
How do you kite melee vs melee? It's not like you can get free hits on the golem.
I just kite the golem from far left to far right within it's leash distance, striking the golem once each time I change direction. This results in taking no dmg for over 2 seconds each pass and leaves you extremely healthy like 80%+ after the consume and golem heal.
On August 23 2012 13:51 Ketara wrote: I just did 2 games in a row solo top vs. Xin Zhao using Mogwais build and I have to say it wasn't very fair. In the first game I had a pretty consistent 50 CS lead over Xin, and in the second game after Xin died the third time he ragequit and I apologized to his team.
Point being, Mogwais build works v. well. That grail really makes the build, it lets you grab the chalice early to solve your mana issues and turn it into something powerful late game.
Not surprising. Nunu top ruins almost any melee-ranged autoattackers - especially if he is unprepared mechanically and mentally. He does have some weak match ups, such as Vladimir.
On August 23 2012 13:51 Ketara wrote: I just did 2 games in a row solo top vs. Xin Zhao using Mogwais build and I have to say it wasn't very fair. In the first game I had a pretty consistent 50 CS lead over Xin, and in the second game after Xin died the third time he ragequit and I apologized to his team.
Point being, Mogwais build works v. well. That grail really makes the build, it lets you grab the chalice early to solve your mana issues and turn it into something powerful late game.
Not surprising. Nunu top ruins almost any melee-ranged autoattackers - especially if he is unprepared mechanically and mentally. He does have some weak match ups, such as Vladimir.
I wouldn't consider Vlad a bad matchup tbh. You can shit on him pretty damn hard before lvl 7 and get quite a sizable lead by the time Vlad is anywhere near a threat to you. Even if you somehow misplay/get camped, maxing Q gives you just as much if not more sustain than Vlad.
On August 23 2012 23:26 Shiragaku wrote: Is the Ice Blast nerf going to make Nunu unviable for competitive play? I honestly doubt it, but I am curious nonetheless.
Nunu still very good. The nerf just makes it so you can't maintain Ice Blast debuff with max cdr.
Nunu's competitive viableness comes from infinite sustain in lane + being a big fucking dick with enough mana regen, being able to give a lategame AD carry a free PD, and being able to (almost) maintain a massive move and attack speed slow on any target. He also has massive damage potential from his ult, making him a big cc magnet.
On August 24 2012 00:19 Ketara wrote: You think the split pen marks are better than pure mpen?
depends on the matchup. vs. most bruisers, you don't want to be in their face, so split pen doesn't do shit, but vs. mages @ top lane, you frequently end up way ahead @ level 4 by Ice Blasting and beating them down with blood boil. you'll notice that I have 2 nunu pages that I use these days, 1 with flat MRes glyphs and SplitPen marks and 1 with scaling MRes glyphs and MPen marks.
I've been experimenting with blasting wand instead of kage's pick, then building a GRB after chalice. The jury's still out on it, but once every 6 months I look at the stat efficiency on max stack GRB and I can't help but try to make the damn thing work.
On August 25 2012 05:39 Mogwai wrote: I've been experimenting with blasting wand instead of kage's pick, then building a GRB after chalice. The jury's still out on it, but once every 6 months I look at the stat efficiency on max stack GRB and I can't help but try to make the damn thing work.
On August 25 2012 05:39 Mogwai wrote: I've been experimenting with blasting wand instead of kage's pick, then building a GRB after chalice. The jury's still out on it, but once every 6 months I look at the stat efficiency on max stack GRB and I can't help but try to make the damn thing work.
I had wondered the same, but after some research into what builds out of a blasting wand, it apparently is Guinsoos Rageblade. Why you'd want to build that on nunu, i have no idea. Though i also don't really like getting most GP10s on him, since none of them build into stuff you want, at least as top nunu. You will be getting your CDR from chalice and frozen heart, so you don't want philo or kages, since you don't want additional CDR from Shurelyas or DFG.
HoG might be interesting if you want even more armor and annoyingness for AD carries from Randuins, but then general consensus appears to be that HoG usually sucks, even if you want randuins. I am not a fan of building GP10s that you won't build into something lateron.
You get it really early (I try to get it first back), the 25 AP helps top lane early game, and it's not like you're gonna be 6 slots full of items until really late game, and that doesn't happen very often. By the time I need to put something high tier in that item slot the pick has already paid for itself, and I'll probably sell it for an Abyssal Scepter or something.
The question is, is that pick worth it to delay your core? When you can afford that pick, you can nearly afford a chalice, too, which then solves all your manaproblems forever. Or you could get part of a glacial shrowd or the fiendish codex, which would both increase your damage through the CDR they give. I am just not convinced that 25 AP is worth delaying that core. Of course, if you are already completely winning your lane, you could get it, to get some additional money, but then you could also use that money to get more immediately useful items for teamfights.
I think you need pretty extraordinary circumstances too make gp10 items that you never plan to upgrade into something worth it. You are giving up some immediate strength for a few hundred gold later down the line when you sell that item. Thus, you would need a situation where you can't get any benefit out of those additional stats for a prolongued period of time, and are reasonably sure of that. I doubt that happens too often. If you get it on your first back, and can't afford a chalice in addition to that, you suddenly increase the time where you are mana-constrained by a lot, which can be problematic.
I don't see the problem in getting gp10s in that they block a slot, it is that they delay your core and need a much longer time to pay off if you don't plan to build them into something else. If you want something they build into, the gp10 is just an added bonus that you get for some time until you finish that item. But if you don't want anything they build into, you must keep them in your inventory for quite some time to even break even, and then some more for it to be worth it. During all this time, you use a subpar item just for it to maybe pay off lateron, and i doubt that very often you could not have had more effects from having a better item to start with.
But i won't act like i am any sort of expert, others have a lot more experience with this then i do. These are just my thoughts.
Well, you get Philo and Pick for the midgame income. Nunu has issues with midgame farming since he doesn't really have AoE wave clearing, since most midgame farm comes from quickly hitting a pulling lane, blowing it up fast and getting back to your team, which nunu can't do. I mean, I never do worse than breaking even on philo/pick, and typically I'm selling philo after it's earned me 600-700 gold, which is a net +210-310 gold, whereas selling say a dring hits you for -237 gold.
GRB experiment is going really well actually, it's sick for soloing people. It's leaving me with low CDR at weird timing though, so I'm still figuring out when I want to get it, but it's really good in skirmishes and cleaning up teamfights + it's a huge buff to his tower pushing.
See, that's the thing. Nobody ever feels like having a Ruby Crystal's worth of extra gold is a huge deal lategame, but having a Kage's pick vs. real items in lane feels very significant.
I have been skipping Philo and Kages for a while, Grail/Glacial/WotA 1600 gold sooner is better, dont need philo for sustain, dont need kages for anything. If i really want early AP I'd rather get an amp tome and sit on it until i can get revolver, but generally chalice is enough for all things sustain.
I do like 1 or 2 drings depending on when I back/how much gold I have as an extra HP buffer for when consume is on cooldown. Every stat is what Nunu needs early game.
I find the stronger early game of dorans might give you enough advantage to outweigh the gold you get from GP10 tbh. You also don't want shurelias since you're already capped on CDR and you don't want DFG for the same reason. Getting Kages and Philo just for the gold doesn't seem to outweigh the stronger laning phase.
I'm 26-7 with Nunu top (or mid) since July 31st running 9/21 (and 9/15/6 for a short while at the start) masteries and buildwise: 2dring -> FH or 2dring -> Chalice -> FH.
I tried Smash's build initially (went 0-3 with it ) but I got fucked a lot early game since I didn't realize how squishy Nunu is with that build. After that I tried some 9/15/6 build getting mana regen, but after talking to Smash (where he said something to the effect of "might as well run 9/21") I've been doing 9/21 ever since. This setup is definitely beastly as fuck in lane (you can essentially go man-mode on anyone) and is good for lazy people who can't be bothered chipping people down slowly over time (I just auto people 24/7 + press E). Also, maxing Q first vs hard lanes like Riven/Lee really really helps no matter what build you run.
edit: And you can 2 man (with jungle) baron once you have FH (easily).
Do you think nunu is like a counter to yorick? When I say counter I don't mean "turns into farmfest". AP yi can turn top lane into a farmfest. I mean nunu's consume can eat yorick's orange minion effectively shutting down most of his sustain.
Try it with some guy who plays yorick, and report your findings back. But i think this debate was here in this thread before, and the problem is that his ghuls have less cd then your consume for a long period of the earlygame unless you max it first, which would stop him from needing any sustain since you can't do anything except eat stuff.
Yorick isn't a huge problem if you just focus down his healing ghouls and spam snowballs, I found. The other ones hurt, but you can juke them and harass him back, eventually he'll have to go back.
I got forced to play jungle Nunu in a game. Things went ok :\
It's not quite the same as making the enemy top completely useless the entire game, but whatever.
On August 27 2012 01:44 obesechicken13 wrote: Do you think nunu is like a counter to yorick? When I say counter I don't mean "turns into farmfest". AP yi can turn top lane into a farmfest. I mean nunu's consume can eat yorick's orange minion effectively shutting down most of his sustain.
Nunu counters yorick but it takes a little while to get to the point where you really get to beat on him. I typically start QEQWQ vs. yorrick before starting to max E.
On August 27 2012 01:47 Simberto wrote: Try it with some guy who plays yorick, and report your findings back. But i think this debate was here in this thread before, and the problem is that his ghuls have less cd then your consume for a long period of the earlygame unless you max it first, which would stop him from needing any sustain since you can't do anything except eat stuff.
That's what I was worried about. Ah well top lane farmfest it is.
But yeah, GRB is fucking amazing on him. Snowball/BB win every trade ever and punch shit like a man.
Edit: Irelia has to be the easiest fucking lane I've faced. Maybe bad Irelias, but the last few I've been up 2 kills and 60 farm ezpz. She really can't do much about Snowball to the face since her sustain relies on autoattacks. The last 2 just gave up and sat at tower.
On August 27 2012 01:44 obesechicken13 wrote: Do you think nunu is like a counter to yorick? When I say counter I don't mean "turns into farmfest". AP yi can turn top lane into a farmfest. I mean nunu's consume can eat yorick's orange minion effectively shutting down most of his sustain.
Nunu counters yorick but it takes a little while to get to the point where you really get to beat on him. I typically start QEQWQ vs. yorrick before starting to max E.
Don't you only need 2 points in Q to insta-nom his ghouls until mid-lategame?
i disagree pretty heavily requizen, i think irelia is probably nunu's hardest lane besides maybe riven you can't trade with her because even if you pop snowball, she can activate W, get a Q on you (which procs W) then either try to continue fighting with true damage (you have no stun to stop her) or E and walk away if you're on top. it's a really delicate lane and i'd give the advantage pretty heavily to irelia.
On August 27 2012 03:24 gtrsrs wrote: i disagree pretty heavily requizen, i think irelia is probably nunu's hardest lane besides maybe riven you can't trade with her because even if you pop snowball, she can activate W, get a Q on you (which procs W) then either try to continue fighting with true damage (you have no stun to stop her) or E and walk away if you're on top. it's a really delicate lane and i'd give the advantage pretty heavily to irelia.
Um, if Irelia presses W, you snowball her and run away. Not very hard.
On August 27 2012 02:40 Requizen wrote: But yeah, GRB is fucking amazing on him. Snowball/BB win every trade ever and punch shit like a man.
Edit: Irelia has to be the easiest fucking lane I've faced. Maybe bad Irelias, but the last few I've been up 2 kills and 60 farm ezpz. She really can't do much about Snowball to the face since her sustain relies on autoattacks. The last 2 just gave up and sat at tower.
Irelia is very difficult to play against due to her true damage and innate sustain. I think Nunu's 4 greatest foes are (in this order): Vladimir, Irelia, Yorick, Nidalee.
On August 27 2012 02:40 Requizen wrote: But yeah, GRB is fucking amazing on him. Snowball/BB win every trade ever and punch shit like a man.
Edit: Irelia has to be the easiest fucking lane I've faced. Maybe bad Irelias, but the last few I've been up 2 kills and 60 farm ezpz. She really can't do much about Snowball to the face since her sustain relies on autoattacks. The last 2 just gave up and sat at tower.
Irelia is very difficult to play against due to her true damage and innate sustain. I think Nunu's 4 greatest foes are (in this order): Vladimir, Irelia, Yorick, Nidalee.
Vladimir and nidalee are no match for hybrid rune yeti fists, I'm dead fucking serious
On August 27 2012 03:24 gtrsrs wrote: i disagree pretty heavily requizen, i think irelia is probably nunu's hardest lane besides maybe riven you can't trade with her because even if you pop snowball, she can activate W, get a Q on you (which procs W) then either try to continue fighting with true damage (you have no stun to stop her) or E and walk away if you're on top. it's a really delicate lane and i'd give the advantage pretty heavily to irelia.
Hm, entirely likely, but I've had nothing but success with it. It probably has a lot with people wasting Q, as long as I know it's down (she uses it to get to me instead of to a low minion nearby to reset the CD), I have no issue WE and walking away safely. As soon as she uses Equilibrium, I feel free to consume and ult without her being able to do anything about it. I also run Ignite to trade with her a bit easier, though it doesn't help that much.
On August 27 2012 03:24 gtrsrs wrote: i disagree pretty heavily requizen, i think irelia is probably nunu's hardest lane besides maybe riven you can't trade with her because even if you pop snowball, she can activate W, get a Q on you (which procs W) then either try to continue fighting with true damage (you have no stun to stop her) or E and walk away if you're on top. it's a really delicate lane and i'd give the advantage pretty heavily to irelia.
Um, if Irelia presses W, you snowball her and run away. Not very hard.
On August 27 2012 02:40 Requizen wrote: But yeah, GRB is fucking amazing on him. Snowball/BB win every trade ever and punch shit like a man.
Edit: Irelia has to be the easiest fucking lane I've faced. Maybe bad Irelias, but the last few I've been up 2 kills and 60 farm ezpz. She really can't do much about Snowball to the face since her sustain relies on autoattacks. The last 2 just gave up and sat at tower.
Irelia is very difficult to play against due to her true damage and innate sustain. I think Nunu's 4 greatest foes are (in this order): Vladimir, Irelia, Yorick, Nidalee.
Vladimir and nidalee are no match for hybrid rune yeti fists, I'm dead fucking serious
Vladimir doesn't even need to trade against Nunu. He just needs to sustain himself and push the lane 24/7.
On August 27 2012 02:40 Requizen wrote: But yeah, GRB is fucking amazing on him. Snowball/BB win every trade ever and punch shit like a man.
Edit: Irelia has to be the easiest fucking lane I've faced. Maybe bad Irelias, but the last few I've been up 2 kills and 60 farm ezpz. She really can't do much about Snowball to the face since her sustain relies on autoattacks. The last 2 just gave up and sat at tower.
Irelia is very difficult to play against due to her true damage and innate sustain. I think Nunu's 4 greatest foes are (in this order): Vladimir, Irelia, Yorick, Nidalee.
Vladimir and nidalee are no match for hybrid rune yeti fists, I'm dead fucking serious
Vladimir doesn't even need to trade against Nunu. He just needs to sustain himself and push the lane 24/7.
I dunno, but around 1600 elo I haven't lost a nunu vs vlad lane yet
You only beat Irelia if they're stupid and carelessly use their E before you use your ult. Like you'll run into Irelias that have no idea how to play against Nunu and think they can beat you from lvl 7-9 and on and engage with W on and stunning you, etc. like how you would against anyone else. But if an Irelia engages on you and uses E early, you can then just promptly iceball them and channel your ult and they either have to flash out of it or they'll die immediately (with ignite and another follow up iceball). But if the Irelia is smart then you'll never ever get your ult off on them and consequently be incapable of beating them out of lane. And if it settles into a farm lane then Irelia > Nunu.
On August 27 2012 12:29 koreasilver wrote: You only beat Irelia if they're stupid and carelessly use their E before you use your ult. Like you'll run into Irelias that have no idea how to play against Nunu and think they can beat you from lvl 7-9 and on and engage with W on and stunning you, etc. like how you would against anyone else. But if an Irelia engages on you and uses E early, you can then just promptly iceball them and channel your ult and they either have to flash out of it or they'll die immediately (with ignite and another follow up iceball). But if the Irelia is smart then you'll never ever get your ult off on them and consequently be incapable of beating them out of lane. And if it settles into a farm lane then Irelia > Nunu.
That's actually exactly why I kept winning, just baiting out equilibrium strikes. So yeah, 1200 Irelias are bad.
Edit: Hmm, need more practice vs Jax. Thought it'd be an easy win, but he sure as fuck does hurt :\ Probably should have gotten Tabi earlier.
On August 27 2012 12:29 koreasilver wrote: You only beat Irelia if they're stupid and carelessly use their E before you use your ult. Like you'll run into Irelias that have no idea how to play against Nunu and think they can beat you from lvl 7-9 and on and engage with W on and stunning you, etc. like how you would against anyone else. But if an Irelia engages on you and uses E early, you can then just promptly iceball them and channel your ult and they either have to flash out of it or they'll die immediately (with ignite and another follow up iceball). But if the Irelia is smart then you'll never ever get your ult off on them and consequently be incapable of beating them out of lane. And if it settles into a farm lane then Irelia > Nunu.
That's actually exactly why I kept winning, just baiting out equilibrium strikes. So yeah, 1200 Irelias are bad.
Edit: Hmm, need more practice vs Jax. Thought it'd be an easy win, but he sure as fuck does hurt :\ Probably should have gotten Tabi earlier.
I always find Jax vs Nunu an easy-medium match up for Jax. I played this match up about 5-6 times already I think, and I won most of them. I believe without jungler interference Jax will eventually win.
All Jax needs to do is to get Executioner's Calling. Once he gets it it's all over for Nunu. However, Jax has a lot of tools that will allow him to keep up the pressure and survive until he can actually get this item.
On August 27 2012 12:29 koreasilver wrote: You only beat Irelia if they're stupid and carelessly use their E before you use your ult. Like you'll run into Irelias that have no idea how to play against Nunu and think they can beat you from lvl 7-9 and on and engage with W on and stunning you, etc. like how you would against anyone else. But if an Irelia engages on you and uses E early, you can then just promptly iceball them and channel your ult and they either have to flash out of it or they'll die immediately (with ignite and another follow up iceball). But if the Irelia is smart then you'll never ever get your ult off on them and consequently be incapable of beating them out of lane. And if it settles into a farm lane then Irelia > Nunu.
That's actually exactly why I kept winning, just baiting out equilibrium strikes. So yeah, 1200 Irelias are bad.
Edit: Hmm, need more practice vs Jax. Thought it'd be an easy win, but he sure as fuck does hurt :\ Probably should have gotten Tabi earlier.
I always find Jax vs Nunu an easy-medium match up for Jax. I played this match up about 5-6 times already I think, and I won most of them. I believe without jungler interference Jax will eventually win.
All Jax needs to do is to get Executioner's Calling. Once he gets it it's all over for Nunu. However, Jax has a lot of tools that will allow him to keep up the pressure and survive until he can actually get this item.
every time i've seen smash play nunu vs jax, he's dunked the jax pretty hard unless enemy jungler camps him
edit: also, exe's calling is not that great of a buy on jax, so in that sense, forcing jax to buy it is a good thing for nunu. Jax typically doesn't itemize for crit past trinity force since empower, leap and the passive part of his ult don't mesh well with it.
On August 27 2012 12:29 koreasilver wrote: You only beat Irelia if they're stupid and carelessly use their E before you use your ult. Like you'll run into Irelias that have no idea how to play against Nunu and think they can beat you from lvl 7-9 and on and engage with W on and stunning you, etc. like how you would against anyone else. But if an Irelia engages on you and uses E early, you can then just promptly iceball them and channel your ult and they either have to flash out of it or they'll die immediately (with ignite and another follow up iceball). But if the Irelia is smart then you'll never ever get your ult off on them and consequently be incapable of beating them out of lane. And if it settles into a farm lane then Irelia > Nunu.
That's actually exactly why I kept winning, just baiting out equilibrium strikes. So yeah, 1200 Irelias are bad.
Edit: Hmm, need more practice vs Jax. Thought it'd be an easy win, but he sure as fuck does hurt :\ Probably should have gotten Tabi earlier.
I always find Jax vs Nunu an easy-medium match up for Jax. I played this match up about 5-6 times already I think, and I won most of them. I believe without jungler interference Jax will eventually win.
All Jax needs to do is to get Executioner's Calling. Once he gets it it's all over for Nunu. However, Jax has a lot of tools that will allow him to keep up the pressure and survive until he can actually get this item.
I think eventually is the key word there. Both champs can put out pressure (constant snowballs, Jax burst), but unless you completely shove Jax out of the lane altogether, he's going to go Jax mode if he gets an even amount of farm, while you're still Nunu in the late game.
I think my issue was using ult against him in lane. Every time I did, I'd wait for the stun then hit R, but he'd just Ignite me and lay down damage, then kill me and get away with <200 health. I think it's one of those matchups where you have to play like an asshole with snowball harass, because fighting him straight up at all is a pretty bad idea.
On August 27 2012 12:05 101toss wrote: So when it comes to building GRB, I think the order should be philo/dring->chalice->GRB
This is since you really need the mana to keep up the 8 stacks effectively
you can auto attack to keep it up you know
If you want to kill them you'll need the mp5 or you'll go oom in 6 seconds
Also it's hard to get punches in a Darius or some bully lane
You shouldn't get a GRB in a lane where you're getting bullied though.... like, a lot of the cost is spent on AD, if you can't trade autos anyway, you shouldn't be getting GRB. Better off just getting Grail/Shroud/Revolver for attritioning down bully lanes.
On August 27 2012 12:05 101toss wrote: So when it comes to building GRB, I think the order should be philo/dring->chalice->GRB
This is since you really need the mana to keep up the 8 stacks effectively
you can auto attack to keep it up you know
If you want to kill them you'll need the mp5 or you'll go oom in 6 seconds
Also it's hard to get punches in a Darius or some bully lane
You shouldn't get a GRB in a lane where you're getting bullied though.... like, a lot of the cost is spent on AD, if you can't trade autos anyway, you shouldn't be getting GRB. Better off just getting Grail/Shroud/Revolver for attritioning down bully lanes.
GRB seems fine vs rumble, but I would still prioritize chalice IMO
...I agree, but there are still a lot of lanes where you can actually just go Philo -> GRB and gg them out of the lane. The point is that if it's at the point where you can't auto-attack stuff a lot, you shouldn't get GRB, but once you can auto-attack stuff, GRB is really efficient and strong and even if that's before chalice, the fact that you're auto-attacking stuff means that proper management of your passive should let you bully and keep stacks up when you need them just fine.
asdfg Nidalee. Someone explain this matchup to me, I seem to continually fuck it up. Her harass and sustain seem to equal mine if not better, and then somehow her Cat form burst chunks me for 1/2 my health without a second thought.
Is nunu supposed to win vs darius, or do I just play against extraordinarily bad players when doing normals with friends? "Nunu, you make me hate myself" - darius last game.
I just wanna know how that matchup would go in a ranked game against people at my skill level (currently slightly below 1700).
darius eats nunu. he's impossible to trade autos with and you go oom if you try to only iceball without hitting creeps to get passive. but if you go into creeps to get passive up he eats you alive. really really tough matchup imo. one of the few that nunu struggles with
Okay thanks, I've played the matchup a few times, but only against pretty low elo people in normals, so I don't really want to count on the experience i've gotten from those games being accurate.
So you go 2 drings -> chalice with tabi somewhere in there, or do you go glacial before chalice? It seems like chalice could actually benefit you more than some armor in that matchup. He does so much magic/true damage anyways, and chalice lets you spam snowballs.
I went Tabi + Chalice and spamed snowballs. If he hooks you, eat a creep and snowball him, then just walk away from him. Other than that, he shouldn't get THAT many chances to hit you really. If he's slowed, you can lasthit with melee and he shouldn't be able to punish you without using hook.
Is there any vod of Smash (or someone else, for that matter) playing this matchup, so I can get a better understanding of how higher ELO darius' play it out?
You can also wait for the hook then consume -> ult, but there's also the chance that he can just burst you to death during the channel. If you have the armor, though, he has to flash or eat the full ult.
Yorick: Lol. Rumble: FUCK. Bullshit damage, harass, shield, everything about this champion is dumb and I hate him. Darius: Rolled him so hard that he lane switched with Brand. I ran my defense page out of fear, but I don't think it was necessary. Consume and yeti fists give you good early trades, and then snowballs until he dies.
Edit:
Lee was so much of a fucking joke it wasn't even funny. Again, low ELO so he may have just sucked, but I won so hard his children will feel it. Like, to the tune of 2-0 and 50 CS to 12.
I played one game against him and it felt pretty evenish. Later on I felt like I could slowly edge him out of lane, but tt seemed that, Singed + Jungle ganks > Nunu + Jungle ganks.
Also, what about Nunu vs Malphite?
I felt like I had an advantage, but late game malphite ults are pretty good. Early on I felt like I couldn't iceball him out of lane because of mana issues and his shield. Later on he got blue buff because their jungle and mid didn't need it and we were trading evenly (I didn't have blue buff, just chalice lol). Still felt like his late game was like mine except his AOE ult was a knockup and mine was not.
nunu stomps malphite, get rageblade, administer beats, gg. Malphite can never keep up with your sustain and you crush him in lane. yes, his ult is a gamechanger later, but if you can pressure and force him to stay top or lose towers, you can end up far enough ahead to crush him.
singed is a win for you, but don't get rageblade. you can never punch him, just rush grail and spam snowballs until he dies.
Feel like my ability to administer beats is fairly limited when I attack once every two seconds after malph's aspd debuff Do you go DR => GRB?
Vs Singed do you go double DR => grail or philo/pick => grail? I was spamming snowballs against singed but it felt like he could push lane, take some snowballs, recall, then TP / run back supah fast and not miss too much cs.
Gp5 vs DRing decision comes down to whether you're just farming and zoning, or you're shit-stomping them. No reason to get DRings in lane if all you're doing is getting CS and not roaming/fighting, imo.
I know the GP10 discussion has been done a million times, but I really can't see how it is a wise choice to trade laning power for extra late game gold versus Darius. Both philo and kages are pretty lackluster when it comes to laning vs darius, while earlier defenses (dorans, tabi, glacial) or CDR (fiendish codex, glacial) could help quite a lot to actually win the lane.
Going GP10 versus darius and try to mostly farm just ends up with you dying to his stupid damage, so you end up behind even though you have GP10.
I just saw you lose lane vs a darius Smash, mostly due to a early shaco gank + no help what so ever from mummy, but do you think that going GP10 when behind vs him is the best route?
Im kinda lost here or missed it, but what exactly is the hybrid pen runpage? thx in advance, great success with nunu top so far, gotta love when they walk into your brush while you channel your ult for 2500dmg.
On September 01 2012 08:43 AsnSensation wrote: Im kinda lost here or missed it, but what exactly is the hybrid pen runpage? thx in advance, great success with nunu top so far, gotta love when they walk into your brush while you channel your ult for 2500dmg.
I think it just involves using the hybrid pen marks/quints.
On September 01 2012 08:43 AsnSensation wrote: Im kinda lost here or missed it, but what exactly is the hybrid pen runpage? thx in advance, great success with nunu top so far, gotta love when they walk into your brush while you channel your ult for 2500dmg.
The more I play Nunu top the more I wonder how people haven't caught on to it yet. It's so abusive. Fairly easy to reach 40cdr and 300+ armor. Mass bloodboils on your AD while iceballing/randuining the enemy carry (with a frozen heart on you for good measure).
He is so punishing when people make mistakes, too. Was laning against a Jayce, he smacked me away so I iceballed him, flashed onto him (he had no flash) and made him eat a full channel ult + ignite, with another iceball to finish the job.
What? You're aware that slows stack poorly right? You'd get like... 65% slow instead of 60% ~_~ the Rylai slow is at 1/3 effectiveness and multiplied onto the remaining movespeed after snowball.
What, are you going to slow monsters with consume?
I can't see Rylai's being any good on Nunu at all. The HP is pretty wasted due to the efficiency of consume, the slow is pointless because your two damaging spells already slow and slows stack only multiplicatively and at lowered percentages. Really the only reason is the AP and there are a whole lot of options that are better than 80 AP for 3.1k
On September 09 2012 16:33 the p00n wrote: I knew it stacked poorly but not that poorly... in the Cho'Gath topic people suggest rushing Rylai's on him, so I figured why not on Nunu.
The only ability of chogaths that slows is rupture though. He can hit an entire team with vorpal spikes/scream and slow them all. Nunu already has a built in aoe slow, and while he cant snowball an entire team thats still a slow in its own right.
Rylai's was suggested on Cho in great deal because that applying a slow to someone makes them much easier to hit with Rupture, which he's pretty much reliant on to output most of damage/disrupt/keep himself from being kited. With Nunu you have no such skillshots to worry about -- just point and click, or charging ult.
On September 10 2012 06:17 samthesaluki wrote: wait darius hard lane wtf he is easy unless you mess up, he has no sustain you just snowball him till he has to leave gg
At lvls 1-3 you can't really stand near creeps because he will just kill you.
Darius has no mana costs. Consume and snowball actually cost mana.
I think the point about rylais is that it is a tanky AP item. When compared to RoA, Rylais gives you 500 hp and 80 Ap, while a fully stacked RoA gives you 80 AP, 630 health and 750 mana. Both cost nearly the same amount of money, so if you don't profit from that additional mana, which a nunu with chalice, or a cho, usually don't do at all, if you would want to build RoA, you might as well build Rylais and grab that slow. But i think that in the case of Nunu, it would be way better to just split that off in 2 items and grab a tanky item and an AP item (if you want that combination of stats) since he does not really profit from the slow, either.
But in general, if you want to build RoA, you should usually look very closely if you'd not rather build Rylais. Unless you really want that mana, it's probably the better choice. If Mana is irrelevant for your champion at that point, i don't see why anyone would ever build RoA over Rylais.
On September 10 2012 06:17 samthesaluki wrote: wait darius hard lane wtf he is easy unless you mess up, he has no sustain you just snowball him till he has to leave gg
At lvls 1-3 you can't really stand near creeps because he will just kill you.
Darius has no mana costs. Consume and snowball actually cost mana.
lolwut
Utilize passive, trade autos with him. If he ever stands and fights in creeps, eat something and laugh at him.
On September 10 2012 06:47 xes wrote: Maybe its because I'm running 9/0/21 still instead of 9/21/0 but I've found I can't bully Darius hard until rank 2 consume and rank 3 snowball.
I rarely run 9/0/21 anymore at all. Using Yeti paws too tempting, and don't need gold masteries when you just kill everything and win lane.
On September 10 2012 06:17 samthesaluki wrote: wait darius hard lane wtf he is easy unless you mess up, he has no sustain you just snowball him till he has to leave gg
At lvls 1-3 you can't really stand near creeps because he will just kill you.
Darius has no mana costs. Consume and snowball actually cost mana.
lolwut
Utilize passive, trade autos with him. If he ever stands and fights in creeps, eat something and laugh at him.
I would love to see you beat a Darius in 1v1 at lvl 2 with Nunu. I don't think it's possible.
So if you guys are on blue team and really brave and your opponents are bad and have a jungler that starts at blue, you can run vamp quints and cdr blues and steal big wraith-> red at level 1 while still having a decent health pool remaining (drink health pot tho)
Also, don't punch darius. It's been stated before in this thread.
On September 10 2012 23:00 101toss wrote: So if you guys are on blue team and really brave and your opponents are bad and have a jungler that starts at blue, you can run vamp quints and cdr blues and steal big wraith-> red at level 1 while still having a decent health pool remaining (drink health pot tho)
Also, don't punch darius. It's been stated before in this thread.
I'm sure you could probably do just Red without changing runes, maybe run 2 red pots 1 blue or 3 red if you want to be extra safe.
And I'll do what I want. I run 9/21 against him anyway, I generally feel tanky enough to slap his shit.
Pretty sure vs. Darius you throw snowballs and kite. If he grabs you, snowball his face and do your best to walk away (even if he slows you, his slow is weaker) and then continue snowballing while his LONGASS GRAB COOLDOWN isn't available. 2 or 3 free snowballs later, all with no potential for him grabbing you and fighting + you consuming off the damage, you should be winning the "trade." Darius has no built-in sustain, so you don't try to win the quick trades, you try to end them ASAP and outlast him.
Mighty yeti paws are more for ranged or AP opponents who can't hit back very effectively in melee when their cooldowns are off.
I beat Darius by playing super passive until he attempts a pull and misses it (yay free damage time) or hits it (fck run away run away, ok now I get 2 free snowballs).
I lose to Darius whenever I try to go for yeti paws, even when his hook is on CD. He doesn't rely on autos that much to trade damage as W is a reset and Q puts stacks on you. With 4 stacks of bleed you've lost the trade unless you're way ahead of him already.
Your Q is 16 seconds at rank 1 which is forever vs Darius' short CDs and low mana costs.
On September 10 2012 23:00 101toss wrote: So if you guys are on blue team and really brave and your opponents are bad and have a jungler that starts at blue, you can run vamp quints and cdr blues and steal big wraith-> red at level 1 while still having a decent health pool remaining (drink health pot tho)
Also, don't punch darius. It's been stated before in this thread.
As blue with nunu, i find it nearly impossible to not successfully steal red at lvl 2. I'm pretty sure like 0/100 people ward red now, and nunu can't die even if hes caught, mostly.
On September 10 2012 08:05 Ketara wrote: Have you guys thought about running split pen quints at all for top Nunu?
Do like mpen reds, armor yellows, mr/level blues, split pen quints.
Damage on snowball is so high base, might be more efficient.
Problem with any kind of penetration quints for Nunu is that AP quints A) have a better stat-conversion rate, B) AP also increases the amount you heal via consume. By a lot.
On September 10 2012 08:05 Ketara wrote: Have you guys thought about running split pen quints at all for top Nunu?
Do like mpen reds, armor yellows, mr/level blues, split pen quints.
Damage on snowball is so high base, might be more efficient.
Problem with any kind of penetration quints for Nunu is that AP quints A) have a better stat-conversion rate, B) AP also increases the amount you heal via consume. By a lot.
I mean, the second point is moot compared to vamp quints, but 15 damage on iceball AND 15 heal on Q is too good to give up
Has anyone tried using exhaust on top nunu? I think it might be nice because it makes it harder for people to get out of ults. I think it's way more useful in teamfights since I usually just try to keep the carries alive.
So, I've been trying out exhaust/ignite top; while I'm not playing real good players (I'm ~1600s), I feel super strong fighting pretty much anyone. If jungler comes, exhaust can help escapes too. Maybe exhaust/flash might be nice?
On September 16 2012 11:11 affinity wrote: Has anyone tried using exhaust on top nunu? I think it might be nice because it makes it harder for people to get out of ults. I think it's way more useful in teamfights since I usually just try to keep the carries alive.
So, I've been trying out exhaust/ignite top; while I'm not playing real good players (I'm ~1600s), I feel super strong fighting pretty much anyone. If jungler comes, exhaust can help escapes too. Maybe exhaust/flash might be nice?
On September 16 2012 11:11 affinity wrote: Has anyone tried using exhaust on top nunu? I think it might be nice because it makes it harder for people to get out of ults. I think it's way more useful in teamfights since I usually just try to keep the carries alive.
So, I've been trying out exhaust/ignite top; while I'm not playing real good players (I'm ~1600s), I feel super strong fighting pretty much anyone. If jungler comes, exhaust can help escapes too. Maybe exhaust/flash might be nice?
Snowball > Ult does the same thing Exhaust would. You're better off having flash to catch someone, ignite to better dive someone, or TP to aid team fights.
so i just got owned by a yorick when i was doing smashgizmos build. i know that i'm supposed to own yoricks but i got stomped. i did the standard, level e and gp/10s into chalice. he just went manamune and stomped me. what did i do wrong?
You should have mixed in leveling Q instead of just straight maxing E. The cdr reduction on Q that you get from leveling it is pretty important for laning against Yorick.
On September 23 2012 05:43 LeeDawg wrote: so i just got owned by a yorick when i was doing smashgizmos build. i know that i'm supposed to own yoricks but i got stomped. i did the standard, level e and gp/10s into chalice. he just went manamune and stomped me. what did i do wrong?
Against yorick you level Q, otherwise it's not particularly easy. He might be one of the candidates to go 2x dring instead of gp10, iunno tho, i think just leveling q is fine, you might not need to max q, but a couple levels before e max is helpful.
Smash mentioned as early as page 10-ish that you run 21 defense for tougher lanes such as Yorick. Also, the skill order suggested vs Yorick is QEQWQR, R>E>Q>W (basically 3 in Q for CDR first then max E).
Well I got my first empire, was a 3's game and we were going to win anyways, but w/e. Went doran's->hourglass+athene's and fullchannel ulted the enemy team. Nobody died instantly, but one snowball to the face of two of them finished them, and the third got cleaned up by the rest of my team.
The feeling when you know everybody is going to get hit by a full channel nunu ulti, is quite possibly the best one in the world.
On August 31 2012 10:56 Seiuchi wrote: Today in ranked we won a game because we forced our top to play Nunu with Smash build. Even though he never played it he beat Yorick np, thanks Smash.
On September 23 2012 07:28 Amui wrote: Well I got my first empire, was a 3's game and we were going to win anyways, but w/e. Went doran's->hourglass+athene's and fullchannel ulted the enemy team. Nobody died instantly, but one snowball to the face of two of them finished them, and the third got cleaned up by the rest of my team.
The feeling when you know everybody is going to get hit by a full channel nunu ulti, is quite possibly the best one in the world.
On September 23 2012 07:28 Amui wrote: Well I got my first empire, was a 3's game and we were going to win anyways, but w/e. Went doran's->hourglass+athene's and fullchannel ulted the enemy team. Nobody died instantly, but one snowball to the face of two of them finished them, and the third got cleaned up by the rest of my team.
The feeling when you know everybody is going to get hit by a full channel nunu ulti, is quite possibly the best one in the world.
what the hell is an empire?
empire = old m5 at the time they were relatively unknown and nunu support was considered semi-troll they also used malphite in the same game when malphite was considered semi-troll and people were like woah malphite has burst
Question about top nunu: I do really well in the laning phase, but I am at a lost when I kill top tower and laning phase *ends* What do I do when team fights start? I can't be like an olaf or jax or ire and charge their backline. Do I play like a support and be next to your ad?
On September 25 2012 14:00 nosliw wrote: Question about top nunu: I do really well in the laning phase, but I am at a lost when I kill top tower and laning phase *ends* What do I do when team fights start? I can't be like an olaf or jax or ire and charge their backline. Do I play like a support and be next to your ad?
Yeah, pretty much snowball people who try to dive your carry while blood boiling him and start charging your ult after the first round of CC has been used or to peel.
On September 25 2012 14:00 nosliw wrote: Question about top nunu: I do really well in the laning phase, but I am at a lost when I kill top tower and laning phase *ends* What do I do when team fights start? I can't be like an olaf or jax or ire and charge their backline. Do I play like a support and be next to your ad?
Yeah, pretty much snowball people who try to dive your carry while blood boiling him and start charging your ult after the first round of CC has been used or to peel.
Also protip: if someone on the enemy team dies, rush baron asap
Edit: Err, apparently I was replying to an old post. D'oh.
On September 23 2012 05:43 LeeDawg wrote: so i just got owned by a yorick when i was doing smashgizmos build. i know that i'm supposed to own yoricks but i got stomped. i did the standard, level e and gp/10s into chalice. he just went manamune and stomped me. what did i do wrong?
I'm no expert, but my intuition would be that you did everything wrong :-)
I'd skip gp10 vs Yorick and go straight for chalice, you need the mana (and later the CDR) quickly. Also I'd level Q, not E, max E doesn't help you if yorick just heals it back.
Your Q cooldowns decrease by 2s per level; his red ghoul cooldowns decrease by 1s per level. If you max Q and he maxes E, after a few levels you'll be close enough to eat most (not all) of his red ghouls right as they spawn. You'll come ahead mana-wise thanks to your passive and health-wise because you leveled Q (it hurts his sustain and increases yours at the same time). You'll be able to push him out of lane after a while, but you need those items (chalice towards athene's).
If you go gp10 while he goes straight for tear, and you max E instead of Q, I'd fully expect Yorick to bully you out of lane with no trouble at all.
Movement speed is always nice, and probably much better then 2 hp5. Its probably also better then 2 MR if you are in a physical lane, or 2 AR when you are in a magic lane. Scaling CDR is usually good, but probably not on Nunu since you are going for 35 CDR on your items anyways. Though 2 points in it might be worth it during that long time you don't have your Frozen Heart completed yet.
Total scrub here. When Im using Smash's build, I usually win my lane pretty nicely. But it seems even when I'm like 5-0 that I cant really carry team fights. Should my first goal be to try to protect the AD carry instead of getting a good ult of, even when I'm 5-0? Im not sure...
On October 15 2012 01:52 Arnovic wrote: Total scrub here. When Im using Smash's build, I usually win my lane pretty nicely. But it seems even when I'm like 5-0 that I cant really carry team fights. Should my first goal be to try to protect the AD carry instead of getting a good ult of, even when I'm 5-0? Im not sure...
Yes. In fact, a "good ult" for Nunu is one that makes the enemy team stay away from the carry. Bloodboil carry, snowball anyone trying to dive carry, channel ult somewhere where the enemy team has to eat it to get to the carry. Eat something. Snowball something. Congrats, you have done your job as Nunu.
As AP top laner Nunu, babysitting your AD carry is a secondary goal. If you waste ult just to stop one bruiser from closing the distance then you probably lose the team fight through lack of damage. You have to remember that the jungler and support generally do very little damage, so if the top laner also does no damage then you have an extreme reliance on the other 2 people to do a lot of work.
You have to pick your moments where its both disruptive and gets damage done on some priority targets.
You can peel for your carries with W + E and then wait for CC to get used in the course of a team fight so that you can then ult for an extended period. You can also wait for fights to pull toward bushes or walls that you can ult over while obstructed.
Also movement speed on Udyr and Nunu is almost apples and oranges. Udyr needs it because it's the only way for him to close a gap and then stay on a target. Bear only provides short bursts and triggering it forces you out of your other stances -- you can end up wasting damage or shielding just to toggle movespeed for maintaining range while E proc is on CD). Nunu can maintain 100% uptime on W and slows the shit out of something from range + continually reapplies said slow, which devalues extra movement speed pickups (i.e. things beyond boots). You don't really need to stack movement speed on Nunu (and you frankly shouldn't, as there are superior alternatives for every role he's used in).
just went 7/0 as nunu vs a gp. everytime their ww came to gank i just killed both of them. it was awesome. big thanks to smashgizmo for his awesome build
So guys Nunu top in season 3, with the jungle start. Since the HP values on jungle camps got buffed I found the blue side start where you steal their wraiths is a little more risky since you have to auto the big wraith now (can't instagib it with Q), but still entirely doable whereas if you want to take doubles instead it's much the same since consume still 1shots the small golem. Anybody have ideas on possible new directions to build, possibly with the new kindlegem items and the fact that you can't get your CDR from the defensive tree anymore?
So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Sounds like you're going fairly heavily towards AP. Do you find that your damage is enough to actually kill people on your own later in the game, e.g. if your AP mid failed terribly?
One reason I've switched towards other laners top is because I found it hard to carry as hard as I'd want to in the games where I did very well (and the other lanes didn't). Kayle/Jax seem much stronger that way, but maybe I was playing Nunu wrong. He definitely offers a ton of team fight utility, his aspd debuff and blood boil increase your team's damage output immensely.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Sounds like you're going fairly heavily towards AP. Do you find that your damage is enough to actually kill people on your own later in the game, e.g. if your AP mid failed terribly?
One reason I've switched towards other laners top is because I found it hard to carry as hard as I'd want to in the games where I did very well (and the other lanes didn't). Kayle/Jax seem much stronger that way, but maybe I was playing Nunu wrong. He definitely offers a ton of team fight utility, his aspd debuff and blood boil increase your team's damage output immensely.
Your lategame is not your damage output. It is: 1. Your w scaling off your ad. 2. Huge baron threat 3. Massive peel from e and r 4. Your ult means they have to save and use cc on you or else they get blown up.
Nunu can't carry per se, but he most certainly doesn't fall off. He is also like old garen, who's late game scaling was to deny the other opponent the late game. His damage is good, but it isn't frontloaded excluding his ult, so he's not very good at killing people fast, he wears them down.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
The problem with dring starts on most champions is that they don't have sustain, so lack of potions > the 80 health on dring. However, since nunu q is sustain (that scales 1:1 off the dring), it's suitable for him. Bonus for getting mana on creep kill.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
Yeah bottle doesn't seem good on Nunu at all. Consume > health pots, so it would be more logical to just start with some mana pots (as pre-patch), rather than bottle. I'm sure some quick math could be done to check the health that could be regen'd with bottle health + mana, vs a mana pot and consumes, but I think it would come out in favour of the mana pots.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
Yeah bottle doesn't seem good on Nunu at all. Consume > health pots, so it would be more logical to just start with some mana pots (as pre-patch), rather than bottle. I'm sure some quick math could be done to check the health that could be regen'd with bottle health + mana, vs a mana pot and consumes, but I think it would come out in favour of the mana pots.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
Yeah bottle doesn't seem good on Nunu at all. Consume > health pots, so it would be more logical to just start with some mana pots (as pre-patch), rather than bottle. I'm sure some quick math could be done to check the health that could be regen'd with bottle health + mana, vs a mana pot and consumes, but I think it would come out in favour of the mana pots.
Yes but you dont get mana pot + dring.
With 21 utility you can + get a biscuit, however I don't see myself running 21 utility outside of lanes I can be greedy against, like singed.
Dring is essentially a mana potion anyways that amplifies your heal on nom. You could call it a greedy opening, but I think it's fine.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
Yeah bottle doesn't seem good on Nunu at all. Consume > health pots, so it would be more logical to just start with some mana pots (as pre-patch), rather than bottle. I'm sure some quick math could be done to check the health that could be regen'd with bottle health + mana, vs a mana pot and consumes, but I think it would come out in favour of the mana pots.
Yes but you dont get mana pot + dring.
Yeah, I'll explain the point I was trying to make more clearly below.
bottle = 225g (100hp, 40mp, x3) for each back mana potion = 35g (100mp)
consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp
So theoretically, a bottle gives 3(100)+2(125/180/235) = 300+(250/360/470) = 550-770hp
2 mana potions (70g) gives 3(125/180/235) = 375-705hp 3 mana potions (105g) gives 5(125/180/235) = 625-1175hp
I think the conclusion to be had here is that 3 mana potions give more hp than bottle, while costing about half the price. I doubt that you'll be getting more than 6 mana potions in two backs, or before you get chalice or some other mana item (after which mana is more or less irrelevant). Also, starting with just a few mana potions gives you the option of starting with a better item early game, allowing for better lane control early on. Nunu has never been short on sustain, and I don't think there's any reason to get bottle on him.
Edit: this argument is just about how bottle is bad on Nunu, I'm not sure about optimal item right now -- I'd be interested in doing some math behind different openings soon.
On December 06 2012 06:57 mr_tolkien wrote: Excuse my French but HOLY FUCK. Iceborn Gauntlet is insanely retarded on Nunu :o
It's pretty damn expensive and would probably replace FH in the build, not to mention in team fights you won't be able to get off too many sheen procs.
I'll look into it though, I'm a fan of more slows and stronger yeti fists.
When it comes to the bottle debate, health potions aren't necessary except for those awkward moments when you are low and can't safely nom. Generally though, potions are inefficient on Nunu given proper management, and while mana pots are generally better than health pots, a dring can replace mana pots at level 1.
On December 06 2012 06:57 mr_tolkien wrote: Excuse my French but HOLY FUCK. Iceborn Gauntlet is insanely retarded on Nunu :o
It's pretty damn expensive and would probably replace FH in the build, not to mention in team fights you won't be able to get off too many sheen procs.
I'll look into it though, I'm a fan of more slows and stronger yeti fists.
When it comes to the bottle debate, health potions aren't necessary except for those awkward moments when you are low and can't safely nom. Generally though, potions are inefficient on Nunu given proper management, and while mana pots are generally better than health pots, a dring can replace mana pots at level 1.
Yeah instead of FH. I've been running Graal -> Gauntlet as my core. Then it's either Banner of command/Ohmwrecker if I want to finish the game with strong pushing or the more standard "asshole nunu" with a revolver and more resists.
Serisouly, gauntlet is friggin stupid on Nunu. Nobody can touch your backlane anymore, you have more mana, ap, and armor, and you deal a very strong burst to squishies... He just wrecks any melee-reliant team.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
Yeah bottle doesn't seem good on Nunu at all. Consume > health pots, so it would be more logical to just start with some mana pots (as pre-patch), rather than bottle. I'm sure some quick math could be done to check the health that could be regen'd with bottle health + mana, vs a mana pot and consumes, but I think it would come out in favour of the mana pots.
Yes but you dont get mana pot + dring.
Yeah, I'll explain the point I was trying to make more clearly below.
bottle = 225g (100hp, 40mp, x3) for each back mana potion = 35g (100mp)
consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp
So theoretically, a bottle gives 3(100)+2(125/180/235) = 300+(250/360/470) = 550-770hp
2 mana potions (70g) gives 3(125/180/235) = 375-705hp 3 mana potions (105g) gives 5(125/180/235) = 625-1175hp
I think the conclusion to be had here is that 3 mana potions give more hp than bottle, while costing about half the price. I doubt that you'll be getting more than 6 mana potions in two backs, or before you get chalice or some other mana item (after which mana is more or less irrelevant). Also, starting with just a few mana potions gives you the option of starting with a better item early game, allowing for better lane control early on. Nunu has never been short on sustain, and I don't think there's any reason to get bottle on him.
Edit: this argument is just about how bottle is bad on Nunu, I'm not sure about optimal item right now -- I'd be interested in doing some math behind different openings soon.
Interesting. My point, in general was that I think I might still go boots + mana pots opening, even though boots kinda suck, because I feel dumb with dring openings.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
Yeah bottle doesn't seem good on Nunu at all. Consume > health pots, so it would be more logical to just start with some mana pots (as pre-patch), rather than bottle. I'm sure some quick math could be done to check the health that could be regen'd with bottle health + mana, vs a mana pot and consumes, but I think it would come out in favour of the mana pots.
Yes but you dont get mana pot + dring.
Yeah, I'll explain the point I was trying to make more clearly below.
bottle = 225g (100hp, 40mp, x3) for each back mana potion = 35g (100mp)
consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp
So theoretically, a bottle gives 3(100)+2(125/180/235) = 300+(250/360/470) = 550-770hp
2 mana potions (70g) gives 3(125/180/235) = 375-705hp 3 mana potions (105g) gives 5(125/180/235) = 625-1175hp
I think the conclusion to be had here is that 3 mana potions give more hp than bottle, while costing about half the price. I doubt that you'll be getting more than 6 mana potions in two backs, or before you get chalice or some other mana item (after which mana is more or less irrelevant). Also, starting with just a few mana potions gives you the option of starting with a better item early game, allowing for better lane control early on. Nunu has never been short on sustain, and I don't think there's any reason to get bottle on him.
Edit: this argument is just about how bottle is bad on Nunu, I'm not sure about optimal item right now -- I'd be interested in doing some math behind different openings soon.
Interesting. My point, in general was that I think I might still go boots + mana pots opening, even though boots kinda suck, because I feel dumb with dring openings.
I just tried some games with dring, it seems really strong.
Let's take a look at boots/2 mana pot/health pot vs dring.
mana pot: 100mp boots: ehanced movement health pot: 150hp
Once again,
Consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp
Based on sustain,
potions: 3(125/180/235) + 150 = 525-855hp
So approximately four consumes will equal that, or 240mp worth.
Lets say you kill minions at the conservative linear rate of 4minions/min,
4*5mp / 60s = 0.33mp/s
Our regen rate is now:
240mp / (0.6+0.33)mp/s =~ 240s =~ 4min.
Conclusion:
Conservatively, the new dring equals the sustain of 2mpot+hpot in ~4min. Boots aren't especially useful (although they may be necessary in certain lanes?), however the potions are, in general, more useful regeneration than the dring. As an example, after a drawn out engagement against a Nidalee we were both really low, I had lots of mana left, but couldn't go for a consume because she could burst me down. This is a situation where you would really benefit from a health pot. Also, in a crunch mana pots are really useful if you get low on mana (don't have to slowly wait for regen).
However, the dring gives an extra 80hp, which is very effective on Nunu because you will often be full health because of consume. In addition the extra AP adds to both consume (+15hp/consume) and to snowball damage.
For a lot of other champ to stay even in power they need to start with a dorans item, thereby sacrificing sustain from potions. Whereas Nunu actually gains sustain from starting with a dring, and is stronger as well. So either way your presence should be increased against most champions.
So really the argument is down to whether or not you need the regen in a crunch. If you don't find yourself in a situation where you absolutely need potions then in my opinion the dring is a better choice. Also, armed with the knowledge that a dring gives better sustain I argue that you should be able to avoid such scenarios in the first place (ie. you can be a lot less conservative with your consumes now -- a mistake I made laning against the Nidalee).
Anyways, I think dring is a really strong start on Nunu atm.
On December 05 2012 14:54 101toss wrote: So for top nunu: Masteries are 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 or 21/9/0, matchup dependent
Open dring->chalice->t2boots->Grail (it's still very strong)->FH or Spirit Visage depending on their damage->wota->GA->hat/voidstaff/whatever6thitemyouneed
I've tried liandry's torment, but it's very pricey and it doesn't actually offer much damage. Manamune is a trap as well, it takes about a year to get the muramana and doesn't offer any survivability.
The patch has been out for a day, so this is subject to change
S2 plat top yeti player if it means anything
Edit: 2k post wat
Have you tried bottle start? I always default to nunu when I see certain champs. But I haven't had a good Dring start on any champ since the patch.
Yeah bottle doesn't seem good on Nunu at all. Consume > health pots, so it would be more logical to just start with some mana pots (as pre-patch), rather than bottle. I'm sure some quick math could be done to check the health that could be regen'd with bottle health + mana, vs a mana pot and consumes, but I think it would come out in favour of the mana pots.
Yes but you dont get mana pot + dring.
Yeah, I'll explain the point I was trying to make more clearly below.
bottle = 225g (100hp, 40mp, x3) for each back mana potion = 35g (100mp)
consume: -60mp, +125/180/235/... hp
So theoretically, a bottle gives 3(100)+2(125/180/235) = 300+(250/360/470) = 550-770hp
2 mana potions (70g) gives 3(125/180/235) = 375-705hp 3 mana potions (105g) gives 5(125/180/235) = 625-1175hp
I think the conclusion to be had here is that 3 mana potions give more hp than bottle, while costing about half the price. I doubt that you'll be getting more than 6 mana potions in two backs, or before you get chalice or some other mana item (after which mana is more or less irrelevant). Also, starting with just a few mana potions gives you the option of starting with a better item early game, allowing for better lane control early on. Nunu has never been short on sustain, and I don't think there's any reason to get bottle on him.
Edit: this argument is just about how bottle is bad on Nunu, I'm not sure about optimal item right now -- I'd be interested in doing some math behind different openings soon.
Interesting. My point, in general was that I think I might still go boots + mana pots opening, even though boots kinda suck, because I feel dumb with dring openings.
Doran openings are dumb when everyone has +50ms boots, including junglers, and potions while playing a champ with 0 built in sustain
Now that boots are only +25 and junglers are generally pigeonholed into buying the machete, dring is generally safe since you actually have retarded sustain that synergizes well with the doran stats.
^also, I read your post, and you don't really like to have drawn out engagements unless you are sure you can bait out their cc and escape and then follow up with an ult. The way the yeti plays is to just wear them down because you have retarded sustain and a disengaging tool. Of course this doesn't mean to not throw in yeti fists here and there, but pretty often you should try to top off your health.
I was just talking speculatively mostly. I've been playing mostly Olaf both jungle and top until i get the hang of him. Nunu is just a pocket pick vs. Jax and some others that I want to have ready.
On December 06 2012 11:56 cLutZ wrote: I was just talking speculatively mostly. I've been playing mostly Olaf both jungle and top until i get the hang of him. Nunu is just a pocket pick vs. Jax and some others that I want to have ready.
Or you could play nunu against everyone that isn't riven, and if it's riven, you switch to support/jungle
On December 06 2012 15:21 jaybrundage wrote: How does nunu do vs jax and irlelia?
Nunu stomps Jax really hard and performs well against Irelia though the latter lane can sustain better against you -- the Irelia lane is about outplaying each other's Es
On December 06 2012 15:21 jaybrundage wrote: How does nunu do vs jax and irlelia?
Nunu stomps Jax really hard and performs well against Irelia though the latter lane can sustain better against you -- the Irelia lane is about outplaying each other's Es
Also baiting Irelia Q when she can't stun you for a full channel ult.
On December 06 2012 15:30 Craton wrote: Nunu jungle right now can full clear and only use 1-2 HP pots, for those who were wondering.
If you take janky masteries and runes you can do it with a dring start, nothing else, and without smite (this means 9/0/21 focusing on ap, vamp quints and cdr blues). Not very practical, but maybe something could be done with it.
So, smash was loving Rageblade on Nunu before. Now it gets 10% spell vamp when you're below half... giving you a silly amount of extra health from Nom. Win?
On December 06 2012 15:30 Craton wrote: Nunu jungle right now can full clear and only use 1-2 HP pots, for those who were wondering.
If you take janky masteries and runes you can do it with a dring start, nothing else, and without smite (this means 9/0/21 focusing on ap, vamp quints and cdr blues). Not very practical, but maybe something could be done with it.
Could be interesting, but what would you take instead? Laner will probably have Ignite, you don't need Exhaust with Snowball, I guess you could take Teleport for lulganks. But your team would still be short a Smite for Baron/Dragon/buff control.
On December 07 2012 05:09 sylverfyre wrote: So, smash was loving Rageblade on Nunu before. Now it gets 10% spell vamp when you're below half... giving you a silly amount of extra health from Nom. Win?
Rageblade is kind of dumb now. You like, can't die if you go under 50%.
On December 06 2012 15:30 Craton wrote: Nunu jungle right now can full clear and only use 1-2 HP pots, for those who were wondering.
If you take janky masteries and runes you can do it with a dring start, nothing else, and without smite (this means 9/0/21 focusing on ap, vamp quints and cdr blues). Not very practical, but maybe something could be done with it.
Could be interesting, but what would you take instead? Laner will probably have Ignite, you don't need Exhaust with Snowball, I guess you could take Teleport for lulganks. But your team would still be short a Smite for Baron/Dragon/buff control.
On December 07 2012 05:09 sylverfyre wrote: So, smash was loving Rageblade on Nunu before. Now it gets 10% spell vamp when you're below half... giving you a silly amount of extra health from Nom. Win?
Rageblade is kind of dumb now. You like, can't die if you go under 50%.
The jungling comment was purely speculation. While nunu can technically play without smite (that nom is 900 damage) at rank 5, still safer to have smite for a massive buffer. Although, at 1200- elo, not using smite could be good
Only problem I feel with rageblade rush (this applied to the old build as well) was that if you didn't build up enough resists/health, you would just blow up even with all the stats. Also the new rageblade is a bit more pricey, so you're going to be stuck with a pickaxe for a bit longer. Still has retarded cost-efficiency though, combined with me leaning towards 21 offense now.
On a side note, hybrid runes buffed (in terms of slot efficiency, now ~70% of the main runes instead of ~66%)
edit: ok, new rageblade is retarded, almost as retarded as new spirit visage
After 2 weeks of playtesting, here's the new build for top yeti: 21/9/0 for most lanes, 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 are situational Items marked with a (u) indicate utility/tank oriented, while (d) indicates damage/sustain
dring->defensive boots->chalice->crucible(u)/grail(d)->gauntlet(d)/FH(u)->revolver (build this into the appropriate item for your comp)->abyssal(d)/SV(u)->Void Staff(d)/GA(u)
throw in drings as you want, and of course this is only an outline, it's always best to build given the ingame situation
Have you tried a flask opening? Flask, 2 hp pots, 3 mana pots, ward. It's really nice on blue side. Ward red and steal wraith at 1:40. Works really well against the typical weak early junglers like amumu. You'd obviously want a lee/shyv/Mundo on your team.
On December 15 2012 09:57 101toss wrote: After 2 weeks of playtesting, here's the new build for top yeti: 21/9/0 for most lanes, 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 are situational Items marked with a (u) indicate utility/tank oriented, while (d) indicates damage/sustain
dring->defensive boots->chalice->crucible(u)/grail(d)->gauntlet(d)/FH(u)->revolver (build this into the appropriate item for your comp)->abyssal(d)/SV(u)->Void Staff(d)/GA(u)
throw in drings as you want, and of course this is only an outline, it's always best to build given the ingame situation
I don't think I've ever even thought about getting a chalice for nunu, a philo stone always seems sufficient. I've never tried going top with nunu though (mb chalice is needed to keep up with enemy top laner). Can you actually get away with that kind of offensive build? Seems like he would be too squishy. I pretty much always build my nunu into a full tank, eventually getting items like sunfire and/or warmogs. Maybe I'm playing him too safe though...
Auto it some, it doesn't take much longer. Alternately you can just start at double golems all the time since consume still kills the small one in one hit.
On December 15 2012 09:57 101toss wrote: After 2 weeks of playtesting, here's the new build for top yeti: 21/9/0 for most lanes, 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 are situational Items marked with a (u) indicate utility/tank oriented, while (d) indicates damage/sustain
dring->defensive boots->chalice->crucible(u)/grail(d)->gauntlet(d)/FH(u)->revolver (build this into the appropriate item for your comp)->abyssal(d)/SV(u)->Void Staff(d)/GA(u)
throw in drings as you want, and of course this is only an outline, it's always best to build given the ingame situation
I don't think I've ever even thought about getting a chalice for nunu, a philo stone always seems sufficient. I've never tried going top with nunu though (mb chalice is needed to keep up with enemy top laner). Can you actually get away with that kind of offensive build? Seems like he would be too squishy. I pretty much always build my nunu into a full tank, eventually getting items like sunfire and/or warmogs. Maybe I'm playing him too safe though...
The last like 10+ pages of this thread are discussing top Nunu.
On December 15 2012 09:57 101toss wrote: After 2 weeks of playtesting, here's the new build for top yeti: 21/9/0 for most lanes, 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 are situational Items marked with a (u) indicate utility/tank oriented, while (d) indicates damage/sustain
dring->defensive boots->chalice->crucible(u)/grail(d)->gauntlet(d)/FH(u)->revolver (build this into the appropriate item for your comp)->abyssal(d)/SV(u)->Void Staff(d)/GA(u)
throw in drings as you want, and of course this is only an outline, it's always best to build given the ingame situation
I don't think I've ever even thought about getting a chalice for nunu, a philo stone always seems sufficient. I've never tried going top with nunu though (mb chalice is needed to keep up with enemy top laner). Can you actually get away with that kind of offensive build? Seems like he would be too squishy. I pretty much always build my nunu into a full tank, eventually getting items like sunfire and/or warmogs. Maybe I'm playing him too safe though...
He has the highest health in the game and you get sunfire and warmogs? Wut.
In other news, support Nunu is so ridiculously good. Yeti paws op.
On December 15 2012 09:57 101toss wrote: After 2 weeks of playtesting, here's the new build for top yeti: 21/9/0 for most lanes, 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 are situational Items marked with a (u) indicate utility/tank oriented, while (d) indicates damage/sustain
dring->defensive boots->chalice->crucible(u)/grail(d)->gauntlet(d)/FH(u)->revolver (build this into the appropriate item for your comp)->abyssal(d)/SV(u)->Void Staff(d)/GA(u)
throw in drings as you want, and of course this is only an outline, it's always best to build given the ingame situation
I don't think I've ever even thought about getting a chalice for nunu, a philo stone always seems sufficient. I've never tried going top with nunu though (mb chalice is needed to keep up with enemy top laner). Can you actually get away with that kind of offensive build? Seems like he would be too squishy. I pretty much always build my nunu into a full tank, eventually getting items like sunfire and/or warmogs. Maybe I'm playing him too safe though...
He has the highest health in the game and you get sunfire and warmogs? Wut.
In other news, support Nunu is so ridiculously good. Yeti paws op.
Highest health in the game?? I didn't know that ;o Maybe it's because I'm still relatively new to the game that I often just think of survivability first when buying items - usually my #1 priority is to die as little as possible. I will try getting some more offensive items though next time my yeti is unleashed... abyssal scepter seems like it would fit him well.
Nunu has a heal that you can pretty much consider "flat" and big pool of HP so he likes resists better than HP when you want to build defensive stuff. It's also the reason why CDR is good on him: he has good utility and base damage on all his abilities, but they're all kinda underwhelming taken by themselves (no real damage combo, consume eats a creep to heal, nothing more defensive than that, etc.) so being able to use them more often does a lot for him.
Ok I read over a lot more pages of this thread now (lol), I had thought my nunu was pretty good but now I realize I haven't been using him to his full potential (even though I would often come out of the game with zero deaths). GRB and Iceborn Gauntlet sound particularly intriguing, especially the new passive on GRB, holy shit.
101toss did you ever try out GRB during your testing? I notice you have gauntlet and revolver in your build but no GRB? It would certainly be a pretty big investment for a nunu, I think it would have to be saved for the late game as you'll be relatively useless until you finish building it.
On December 19 2012 11:18 rhs408 wrote: Ok I read over a lot more pages of this thread now (lol), I had thought my nunu was pretty good but now I realize I haven't been using him to his full potential (even though I would often come out of the game with zero deaths). GRB and Iceborn Gauntlet sound particularly intriguing, especially the new passive on GRB, holy shit.
101toss did you ever try out GRB during your testing? I notice you have gauntlet and revolver in your build but no GRB? It would certainly be a pretty big investment for a nunu, I think it would have to be saved for the late game as you'll be relatively useless until you finish building it.
Hey guys, back from a 2 week trip to disneyland
I did test GRB, and while the stats it provides is absurdly strong, it offers 0 resists and health and as a result you're likely to die in teamfights. If you're 5/0 or something you could probably get it to put in the dagger, but I wouldn't call it core.
Right now I'm testing a more ap oriented build since defensive stats are worse and mpen is op. It goes something like this: dring->defensive boots+chalice->chalice upgrade->glacial->voidstaff->glacial upgrade->zhonya's->abyssal/wota/sv/ga
Note how I axed revolver/wota from the core build; it turns out void staff and zhonya's will offer enough vamp on their own (+170), as well as zhonya's offering more of that hard-to-get armor. If your comp really could benefit from wota, then you could use the older build, but in a league where resistances generally suck, that 35% pen really helps.
As for the flask/pot/ward opening, there's no reason to do that. Just don't push, play safely, and outsustain/bully with the d ring start. D ring goes a lot further than that consumable opening.
you lose: 500 more gold 5 armor 300 mana 5cdr build potential into fh/fists
and get: 10hp/5 425hp (it's more than a fucking health belt) dat active
If you really need dat cdr blue pot should get you to ~40. With chalice/grail mana isn't a problem anyways, and fists are probably better on ezreal anyways as of the current patch.
While nunu does have high base stats, the pen changes and resist nerfs make armor stacking kinda suck compared to leaning towards health.
Tried to farm, he'd zone me with snowball/consume. Asked for ganks, he'd snowball and bb away. Tried to all in, got out-traded any time he was near a creep.
On January 16 2013 17:11 Mondeezy wrote: How do you deal with this pain in the ass mid?
Tried to farm, he'd zone me with snowball/consume. Asked for ganks, he'd snowball and bb away. Tried to all in, got out-traded any time he was near a creep.
Wat do.
Shove lane and go gank bottom, or just ditch mid and camp bot.
Well be careful/safe until you've got enough AP and levels in Q to instaclear the wave, then go gank elsewhere as he won't have the range to touch you and can't push by himself without expanding high amounts of mana (using his passive for "free" pushing makes him kill stuff slowly because he casts less).
On January 16 2013 22:53 Alaric wrote: Well be careful/safe until you've got enough AP and levels in Q to instaclear the wave, then go gank elsewhere as he won't have the range to touch you and can't push by himself without expanding high amounts of mana (using his passive for "free" pushing makes him kill stuff slowly because he casts less).
the last bit isn't 100% true - blood boil gives you enough attack speed to cast consume and blood boil on cd. This still doesn't amount to much pushing power, however. In general, the ways to beat solo lane Nunu are to shove the wave super hard and roam, to harass him off creeps with something spammable that outranges ice ball, or to all-in him before he can wear you down.
He went like Morrelo.-> Guise into generally more AP iirc.
I still follow the S2 Chalice -> Glacial -> Athenes -> into more utility/auras/team based items. Also Rageblade is surprisingly effective on Nunu. Really catches people off-guard at how well you are able to brawl.
Dorans > Morello is fine if you're not in significant need of the MR and can actually autoattack creeps consistently in the matchup. Grail has lost a lot of power since S2 (-30 AP is a big deal for nunu) and Morello provides similar stats and stuff.
If you guys really want to ruin someone's day, play Nunu bot lane Dominion. Bloodboil your big creep, consume their big creep, throw snowballs, the end.
On April 21 2013 14:37 Juicyfruit wrote: If you guys really want to ruin someone's day, play Nunu bot lane Dominion. Bloodboil your big creep, consume their big creep, throw snowballs, the end.
Man I miss S2 Promote. So ridic. how well you can push lane by just BB'ing Promoted minion while you go to town with snowballs.
So good spawning blue side, since you always have minions at their turret, can counter-jungle their Golems/Wraiths too.
On April 20 2013 15:22 sylverfyre wrote: Dorans > Morello is fine if you're not in significant need of the MR and can actually autoattack creeps consistently in the matchup. Grail has lost a lot of power since S2 (-30 AP is a big deal for nunu) and Morello provides similar stats and stuff.
The power you get from Liandry's is pretty dumb.
grail may have lost its sheer ap but it now has 20% cdr and is cheaper to boot
more often than not i find myself buying grail anyways since it gives infinite ammo and armguard/dodge boots is enough in the armor department anyways
I just rush Revolver -> Spirit Visage every game. I generally prefer picking up aura items rather than getting more damage. Also Funblade is solid, if a bit trolly. Works well with Rageblade if you're really rollin.
SV is good vs certain comps, otherwise the mr gets wasted. Revolver/WotA feels kinda meh since you don't heal much from non-Q damage anyways and buying ap instead of vamp offers much more power at the expense of some situational sustain.
Liandries sounds good on paper, but if you've actually tried it, it's very disappointing, and I'd rather have an abyssal scepter/void/visage/pretty much anything else. I guess if you ended up buying a guise and had nothing else to buy...
rage/funblade are both lulzy things to have, but generally make you a liability
cookiecutter build for me is: dring/assload of potions+wards -> chalice/armguard -> defensive boots -> nomicon/grail -> locket/SV -> void staff/abyssal->manduins/zhonyas->some situational item, use blue pots as needed to achieve 40cdr
I'm interested in replacing with the locket slot with the golem stone, since you pay 150 more for 200 health, tenacity, and increased dragon/baron damage (q does not scale off this) for 35 armor and aoe shield.
btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Uh... Iceball has excellent base damage, extremely good scaling, and low cooldown. With 20% spellvamp it's healing you for 80+ every 6s once you've got it maxed, even shorter with CDR.
On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote: btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath?
Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one.
also revolver adds 100-148 hp restored to each Q, and adds 40 damage and 15-45 hp restored to each E. plus now your ult is even better in full minion waves
On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote: btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath?
Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one.
Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)?
Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold.
On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote: btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath?
Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one.
Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)?
Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold.
Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued.
On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote: btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath?
Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one.
Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)?
Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold.
Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued.
Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor):
1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items.
2. Armor offers no protection vs magic damage, but health gives you well-needed surivivability against burst. This is especially important since the yeti's true weakness is getting bursted down before he can eat something.
3. You don't need all that mana. Grail and its components are enough to cover cdr and mana issues.
4. There are better, cheaper midgame alternatives. Dodge boots + armguard provide sufficient early armor while adding to sustain (effective health)/damage, whereas with glacial you get 10 cdr and some mana (mana isn't a problem in lane before chalice if you use passive properly). For 500 more gold than glacial, locket offers a non-trivial team shield, 300 health, and some regen as opposed to 300 mana (about as useful as the regen) and 10 armor. Also the glacial vs locket buildpath is no contest: kindlegem and shirt is much more useful than a chainvest and fucking MANA CRYSTAL. 10 armor vs 300 health and a shield? Obvious decision here. In fact, locket is good enough for you to just sit on that as the midgame armor item as you add in AP items. Blue pot+locket also offers 20% cdr, meaning it is a much cheaper way to achieve max cdr compared to FH (you won't even need 40 since with standard masteries you'll be at 33% which is good enough).
5. For that big armor item slot, Randuin's is better for various reasons. You could argue the AS debuff won't be those not attacking you, but considering nunu is typically best played as a tanky front liner, you will be the focus of a lot of things and in the heat of the battle, and Randuin's offers much more in these scenarios than FH would. Not to mention you don't need to pay for mana...
6. Nunu needs to buy more ap/pen to do the same amount of damage as before due to the flat pen reductions and grail nerf. Locket is over 1.1k cheaper than FH, meaning you can make great progress towards another item (you can get a bwand+blue pot, guise parts, armguard, lots of things really). You can sit on a locket for a long time and buy ap, but you definitely can't sit on a glacial shroud unless you are already ahead (I guess you should be if you are playing top nunu).
This is S3, things have changed. Sheer resistances are out, health mixed in with decent resistance numbers is in. Mana cost buffs on nunu and chalice/grail price reduction mean flat mana is painful to buy.
On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote: btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath?
Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one.
Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)?
Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold.
Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued.
Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor):
1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items.
This is very much not true, you are misleading yourself.
Everyone seems to have latched on to the fact that armor penetration is done in a different order while simultaneously ignoring the fact that all armor penetration values were tweaked so that the end result is the same.
Armor penetration is only stronger now than in S2 if you have both flat and percentage penetration and your opponent has less than ~190 armor, and it is only stronger by a few points.
I've done the calculation before for MR, so a bit of re-use:
Take Haunting Guise, Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff.
S2: 20+20 Flat Pen, 40%Pen: 100 MR reduced to 60 by Flat Pen - 60 reduced to 36 by %Pen 200 MR reduced to 160 by Flat Pen - 160 reduced to 96 by %Pen
S3: 15+15 Flat Pen, 35 %Pen: 100 MR reduced to 65 by %Pen - 65 reduced to 35 by Flat Pen 200 MR reduced to 130 by %Pen - 130 reduced to 100 by Flat Pen
On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote: btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath?
Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one.
Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)?
Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold.
Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued.
Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor):
1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items.
This is very much not true, you are misleading yourself.
Everyone seems to have latched on to the fact that armor penetration is done in a different order while simultaneously ignoring the fact that all armor penetration values were tweaked so that the end result is the same.
Armor penetration is only stronger now than in S2 if you have both flat and percentage penetration and your opponent has less than ~190 armor, and it is only stronger by a few points.
I've done the calculation before for MR, so a bit of re-use:
Take Haunting Guise, Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff.
S2: 20+20 Flat Pen, 40%Pen: 100 MR reduced to 60 by Flat Pen - 60 reduced to 36 by %Pen 200 MR reduced to 160 by Flat Pen - 160 reduced to 96 by %Pen
S3: 15+15 Flat Pen, 35 %Pen: 100 MR reduced to 65 by %Pen - 65 reduced to 35 by Flat Pen 200 MR reduced to 130 by %Pen - 130 reduced to 100 by Flat Pen
If you buy FH and tabi you'll easily exceed over 200 armor assuming nunu has 90 base armor w/ standard runes and masteries, and you'll have 0 bonus health to boot. No bulwark/aegis/taric factored in. Congratulations, you just paid more gold for fewer defensive stats (which was the point of s3 obviously).
You get better value out of multiple lower armor items (locket, dodge boots, armguard) than you do with buying a frozen heart, especially since the smaller armor items offer a lot more than just armor. Passive/cdr is nice, but randuin's is generally better anyways if you really need that armor.
FH slows the opposing team's AS by 20% and caps your CDR... it's pretty darn good in this Nunu build. Idk, you can doubt and mathcraft all you like, it's certainly been good to me in practice over a huge sample size of Nunu games.
On April 27 2013 07:16 Mogwai wrote: FH slows the opposing team's AS by 20% and caps your CDR... it's pretty darn good in this Nunu build. Idk, you can doubt and mathcraft all you like, it's certainly been good to me in practice over a huge sample size of Nunu games.
to each his own i suppose
i have a pretty big sample size of nunu as well with my midgame oriented build
then again you could probably build sunfire cape on top nunu and do fine by nature of the champ
On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote: btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor
Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath?
Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one.
Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)?
Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold.
Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued.
Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor):
1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items.
This is very much not true, you are misleading yourself.
Everyone seems to have latched on to the fact that armor penetration is done in a different order while simultaneously ignoring the fact that all armor penetration values were tweaked so that the end result is the same.
Armor penetration is only stronger now than in S2 if you have both flat and percentage penetration and your opponent has less than ~190 armor, and it is only stronger by a few points.
I've done the calculation before for MR, so a bit of re-use:
Take Haunting Guise, Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff.
S2: 20+20 Flat Pen, 40%Pen: 100 MR reduced to 60 by Flat Pen - 60 reduced to 36 by %Pen 200 MR reduced to 160 by Flat Pen - 160 reduced to 96 by %Pen
S3: 15+15 Flat Pen, 35 %Pen: 100 MR reduced to 65 by %Pen - 65 reduced to 35 by Flat Pen 200 MR reduced to 130 by %Pen - 130 reduced to 100 by Flat Pen
If you buy FH and tabi you'll easily exceed over 200 armor assuming nunu has 90 base armor w/ standard runes and masteries, and you'll have 0 bonus health to boot. No bulwark/aegis/taric factored in. Congratulations, you just paid more gold for fewer defensive stats (which was the point of s3 obviously).
You get better value out of multiple lower armor items (locket, dodge boots, armguard) than you do with buying a frozen heart, especially since the smaller armor items offer a lot more than just armor. Passive/cdr is nice, but randuin's is generally better anyways if you really need that armor.
Maybe if the other team had 5 borks...
You misread: once you go over ~190 armor, penetration is weaker in S3 than it was in S2.
Between Nunu having the highest base health in the game and his absurd healing from Consume, health is extremely devalued for him.
how do u nunu top? was playing normal mirror top nunu and i got pwn bloody hard,i kept eating his iceball and when i go for cs he just bloodboil and AA me then i just die at 6 ult ignite.
On April 27 2013 07:16 Mogwai wrote: FH slows the opposing team's AS by 20% and caps your CDR... it's pretty darn good in this Nunu build. Idk, you can doubt and mathcraft all you like, it's certainly been good to me in practice over a huge sample size of Nunu games.
I think the biggest issue with Frozen heart in Season 3 is the nerf of the CDR on Glacial Shroud aswell as the overall increased cost for the item. The stats itself on Frozen heart is pretty darn good for Nunu, but with stuff like locket being released into the game i can understand that sometimes you'd rather want a build that focuses more towards the mid-game. Frozen heart screams for that late-game utility it provides with the 20% AS reduction, but it's rare to see those heavy AA-based late comps nowadays.
Some o_O PBE changes to Nunu's Consume (which have then been rolled back, FWIW):
Nunu Consume ( Q ) now gains bonuses for 120/150/180/210/240 seconds based on the type of creep he has consumed. Golems - 10% maximum health and 10% size. Lizard - Your attack deal an additional 1% of your maximum health as magic damage. Wolves / Wraiths - 15% bonus movement speed on kill for 3 seconds. Consume ( Q ) damage increased to 600/700/800/900/1000 from 500/600/700/800/900. Consume ( Q ) now heals for 90/130/170/210/250 + .75 AP down from 125/180/235/290/345 + 1.0 AP. Consume's ( Q ) cooldown has been increased to 17/15/13/11/9 from 16/14/12/10/8.
I just tried the original build yesterday but I ran into the (first world) problem of capping CDR way too easily. I want Athene's, FH and Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, which along with masteries put me at a whopping 60% cdr. Even locket has 10% CDR. Any ideas?
(For the record it was hilarious playing nunu top again. People have no idea how to deal with it, and the baron rush is so unexpected lol).
He's pretty beast in the jungle now. Tried a custom and managed a 3.50 time for lvl 4. His counter-jungling potential seems rather high since you can QE the big minions rather easily and very early on.
So, as it turns out, keeping the core build intact has been more successful, rather than not. If you really need sustain, wraith stone fills in the gap more than enough from the sustain nerf. I also still buy health items especially now that nunu gets a magic atma's and 10% bonus health.
On a side note, not sure who thought giving nunu 10% bonus health (the champ with highest base health @ 18), shureyla's on minion kill, and magic atma's was a good idea, especially since lane nunu can abuse them after early game. 1000 damage on Q also makes it really hard to miss early baron/dragon attempts.
On May 18 2013 19:22 101toss wrote: So, as it turns out, keeping the core build intact has been more successful, rather than not. If you really need sustain, wraith stone fills in the gap more than enough from the sustain nerf. I also still buy health items especially now that nunu gets a magic atma's and 10% bonus health.
On a side note, not sure who thought giving nunu 10% bonus health (the champ with highest base health @ 18), shureyla's on minion kill, and magic atma's was a good idea, especially since lane nunu can abuse them after early game. 1000 damage on Q also makes it really hard to miss early baron/dragon attempts.
Could you please go into a little into your build path? I find myself building random parts of the core since I fail to prioritize what's important.
You can probably not run smite on jungle Nunu since he has so much sustain. Getting smite means you take less damage from the camps so your Q isn't even healing you anymore since you're already full.
On May 18 2013 19:22 101toss wrote: So, as it turns out, keeping the core build intact has been more successful, rather than not. If you really need sustain, wraith stone fills in the gap more than enough from the sustain nerf. I also still buy health items especially now that nunu gets a magic atma's and 10% bonus health.
On a side note, not sure who thought giving nunu 10% bonus health (the champ with highest base health @ 18), shureyla's on minion kill, and magic atma's was a good idea, especially since lane nunu can abuse them after early game. 1000 damage on Q also makes it really hard to miss early baron/dragon attempts.
Could you please go into a little into your build path? I find myself building random parts of the core since I fail to prioritize what's important.
I'll try to answer for 101toss, hope you're ok with that :p
Mainly you should be getting a core of spirit of the spectral wraith, Locket and Runic with either boots5/mercs/tabi. Get boots5 in those situations where you wanna keep high pressure with an early lead.
Get spirit asap if you're snowballing, otherwise keep it as a spirit stone and get either locket or runic first. Since you'll only have 20% cdr (assuming 0/21/9 which is arguably the best masteries for jungle nunu) with locket and spectral, you can opt for either Spirit Visage, Grail or Frozen Heart as luxury item. Most games will be decided before you finish your luxury items, so any additional items beyond this point is situational.
On May 18 2013 19:22 101toss wrote: So, as it turns out, keeping the core build intact has been more successful, rather than not. If you really need sustain, wraith stone fills in the gap more than enough from the sustain nerf. I also still buy health items especially now that nunu gets a magic atma's and 10% bonus health.
On a side note, not sure who thought giving nunu 10% bonus health (the champ with highest base health @ 18), shureyla's on minion kill, and magic atma's was a good idea, especially since lane nunu can abuse them after early game. 1000 damage on Q also makes it really hard to miss early baron/dragon attempts.
Could you please go into a little into your build path? I find myself building random parts of the core since I fail to prioritize what's important.
I'll try to answer for 101toss, hope you're ok with that :p
Mainly you should be getting a core of spirit of the spectral wraith, Locket and Runic with either boots5/mercs/tabi. Get boots5 in those situations where you wanna keep high pressure with an early lead.
Get spirit asap if you're snowballing, otherwise keep it as a spirit stone and get either locket or runic first. Since you'll only have 20% cdr (assuming 0/21/9 which is arguably the best masteries for jungle nunu) with locket and spectral, you can opt for either Spirit Visage, Grail or Frozen Heart as luxury item. Most games will be decided before you finish your luxury items, so any additional items beyond this point is situational.
Sure, thanks! Are you talking about nunu top, though? I always figured rushing chalice (or getting at least some of mana regen) was vital to being a huge asshole in lane. With the sustain nerfs, I figured building tabis or revolver might be situationally better, though.
On May 19 2013 06:07 obesechicken13 wrote: When does nunu not snowball?
When he gets camped or when you misplay vs an all-in and die early. This is easily resolved by just farming under tower and taking a few more points in Q early (early revolver works well). Unless you were talking about the literal sense, in which harhar, never heard that one before.
On May 18 2013 19:22 101toss wrote: So, as it turns out, keeping the core build intact has been more successful, rather than not. If you really need sustain, wraith stone fills in the gap more than enough from the sustain nerf. I also still buy health items especially now that nunu gets a magic atma's and 10% bonus health.
On a side note, not sure who thought giving nunu 10% bonus health (the champ with highest base health @ 18), shureyla's on minion kill, and magic atma's was a good idea, especially since lane nunu can abuse them after early game. 1000 damage on Q also makes it really hard to miss early baron/dragon attempts.
Could you please go into a little into your build path? I find myself building random parts of the core since I fail to prioritize what's important.
I'll try to answer for 101toss, hope you're ok with that :p
Mainly you should be getting a core of spirit of the spectral wraith, Locket and Runic with either boots5/mercs/tabi. Get boots5 in those situations where you wanna keep high pressure with an early lead.
Get spirit asap if you're snowballing, otherwise keep it as a spirit stone and get either locket or runic first. Since you'll only have 20% cdr (assuming 0/21/9 which is arguably the best masteries for jungle nunu) with locket and spectral, you can opt for either Spirit Visage, Grail or Frozen Heart as luxury item. Most games will be decided before you finish your luxury items, so any additional items beyond this point is situational.
Sure, thanks! Are you talking about nunu top, though? I always figured rushing chalice (or getting at least some of mana regen) was vital to being a huge asshole in lane. With the sustain nerfs, I figured building tabis or revolver might be situationally better, though.
He's talking about jungle nunu. Rushing chalice is fine vs ap, but vs ad, you usually want to build armguard/dodge boots before getting chalice/grail. Add drings as needed. Grail/locket are your core if you're getting 10 cdr from another source, otherwise you can have grail/locket/wraithstone or grail/SV depending on the enemy comp.
Anyone with some support Nunu tips for builds/playstyle etc? Support is my weakest role and I can't seem to get much consistency with anyone other than Soraka, who feels really weak vs all the Thresh/Lulu/Janna picks in my bracket range. I thought Nunu might be worth trying, but so far it feels really weird playing him without any AP items.
Looking at nunu's base hp, 437, plus his per level bonus's, 108, plus the 108 and 30 from masteries, and the golem buff, puts his "base" hp at lvl 18 at 2770. The eHp charts are all based around 3000 hp, so nunu doesn't really need to buy hp. With nunu's w duration nerf, he really needs cdr, so spirit golem + FH extremely good items. I was getting razor, because nunu's clear time went into the toilet, but with leveling q over w it stays super fast.
Also, the two small guys are blue camp are lizards, so you can get both the good buffs from one camp.
yes but you're not going to reach level 18 in any reasonable timeframe if you're jungle/support and most good cdr items build from kindlegem anyway (barring frozen heart, i guess).
this is kind of hilarious and its something that i dont think most people take advantage of, but nunu heals a stupid amount with his ult with spectral wraith. i've had absolutely stupid bushwhack ults where i"get caught" run into a bush with like 10% hp and ult, and all of a sudden me and the enemy team swap hp bars.
So i finally got the time, to try out some games with Nunu jungle and so far the result has been a success. 0/21/9, as marks, armor seals, mres/lvl glyphs and MS quints with locket -> spectral wraith -> runic as a core. I typically go QWEE, R > E > Q > W but if i were to invade at enemy red i'd go QEEW cus you'll have a much higher chance at killing or forcing a flash on the enemy jungle, should you be successful in your steal.
Also yay reached plat 3 going 2-0. Gonna abuse the hell out of Nunu before people realize and he's gonna get banned every game.
What do you guys think about support Nunu? Is support Nunu still viable? It seems like the latest patch was a bit of a nerf to a support Nunu who already is a bit on the weak side of things since his earlier nerfs.
On May 23 2013 02:02 KevinIX wrote: What do you guys think about support Nunu? Is support Nunu still viable? It seems like the latest patch was a bit of a nerf to a support Nunu who already is a bit on the weak side of things since his earlier nerfs.
I dislike him from playing him, having him, and playing against him. He's boring to lane with/as, because he just turns every lane into a farm fest (you can't really fight someone with a Nunu). Late game, he's really just kind of boring since he's a W bot with some slows. Overshadowed by most supports, imo. More fun jungle/top :3
On May 21 2013 12:01 xes wrote: How are people skilling new Nunu?
It used to be E>W>Q which gave you pretty good ganks and then by midgame you have enough pts in W to just make your ADC awesome.
Q>E>W now? Just 3 pts in Q then E>W (gives an extra 2 pts in W for midgame)
Q, W, E all have great scaling with levels in the skill no more 1 pt wonders D:
W's scaling is horrible. You used to get 10% as per level, now you're getting 5%. The differences in MS is about 16. After the support nunu nerfs my r>e>w>q led to many losses because my teams were fucking terrible. You really need the faster jungling as far as I'm concerned. Q scales super well now instead of being completely worthless after the first point, and useful at the last point.
If the jungle camp spawn changes go to 1:55 like on the PBE, red invades all fucking day, just like in S2. I need to get in more games though, going -16 in just a week or two because of complete retards is really frustrating.
On May 21 2013 12:01 xes wrote: How are people skilling new Nunu?
It used to be E>W>Q which gave you pretty good ganks and then by midgame you have enough pts in W to just make your ADC awesome.
Q>E>W now? Just 3 pts in Q then E>W (gives an extra 2 pts in W for midgame)
Q, W, E all have great scaling with levels in the skill no more 1 pt wonders D:
W's scaling is horrible. You used to get 10% as per level, now you're getting 5%. The differences in MS is about 16. After the support nunu nerfs my r>e>w>q led to many losses because my teams were fucking terrible. You really need the faster jungling as far as I'm concerned. Q scales super well now instead of being completely worthless after the first point, and useful at the last point.
If the jungle camp spawn changes go to 1:55 like on the PBE, red invades all fucking day, just like in S2. I need to get in more games though, going -16 in just a week or two because of complete retards is really frustrating.
agreed that you should be maxing q for jungle yeti, you clear massively and there's also a lot of utility on it
i've been running a health stack oriented build: start philo parts/3, rush philo into warmogs, then locket, bulwark, shurelyas, and randuins or sv.
can easily break 5k hp, and once you finish warmogs you can tower dive all day. bonus points if you are ahead enough to convert the philo into ohmwrecker for moar lulz
Hi, I've picked up nunu as he is rather cheap and played some jungle games. I feel like he is really strong early game with sick ganks, but you fall off massively lategame.
I feel like I do no damage and even with a ton of defences or hp you die pretty quickly. Doesnt help that you only have one offensive spell and your ult is a giant "pls cc me" sign.
On May 23 2013 18:38 OmegaKnetus wrote: Hi, I've picked up nunu as he is rather cheap and played some jungle games. I feel like he is really strong early game with sick ganks, but you fall off massively lategame.
I feel like I do no damage and even with a ton of defences or hp you die pretty quickly. Doesnt help that you only have one offensive spell and your ult is a giant "pls cc me" sign.
Any tips on being usefull later on?
BB your ADC and be a tanky nunu but your goal should get your lane to snowball so late game is a piece of cake =]
On May 23 2013 18:38 OmegaKnetus wrote: Hi, I've picked up nunu as he is rather cheap and played some jungle games. I feel like he is really strong early game with sick ganks, but you fall off massively lategame.
I feel like I do no damage and even with a ton of defences or hp you die pretty quickly. Doesnt help that you only have one offensive spell and your ult is a giant "pls cc me" sign.
Any tips on being usefull later on?
BB your ADC and be a tanky nunu but your goal should get your lane to snowball so late game is a piece of cake =]
With a Nunu lane, there's always a snowball
Edit: as far as damage, spectral wraith goes a long way. The new Nunu consume incentivizes building spellvamo even more, and even a small bit of ap helps a lot on snowball and ult damage due to the ratios. The next priority is CDR so you can be disrupting their autoattacker and buffing yours with as close to 100% uptime as possible.
On May 21 2013 12:01 xes wrote: How are people skilling new Nunu?
It used to be E>W>Q which gave you pretty good ganks and then by midgame you have enough pts in W to just make your ADC awesome.
Q>E>W now? Just 3 pts in Q then E>W (gives an extra 2 pts in W for midgame)
Q, W, E all have great scaling with levels in the skill no more 1 pt wonders D:
W's scaling is horrible. You used to get 10% as per level, now you're getting 5%. The differences in MS is about 16. After the support nunu nerfs my r>e>w>q led to many losses because my teams were fucking terrible. You really need the faster jungling as far as I'm concerned. Q scales super well now instead of being completely worthless after the first point, and useful at the last point.
If the jungle camp spawn changes go to 1:55 like on the PBE, red invades all fucking day, just like in S2. I need to get in more games though, going -16 in just a week or two because of complete retards is really frustrating.
agreed that you should be maxing q for jungle yeti, you clear massively and there's also a lot of utility on it
i've been running a health stack oriented build: start philo parts/3, rush philo into warmogs, then locket, bulwark, shurelyas, and randuins or sv.
can easily break 5k hp, and once you finish warmogs you can tower dive all day. bonus points if you are ahead enough to convert the philo into ohmwrecker for moar lulz
I feel that if you max Q your ganks are gonna be weak. His E is the strongest in his kit at the moment (aside from the buffs you get from jungle). Nunu's main issue in the jungle is not so much the bigger creeps as the smaller ones, and maxing Q does not solve the problem. With his passive you should be able to get 1-2 free ice blasts off on most jungle camps anyways.
Why don't you wanna get spectral wraith? I feel like the spirit stone upgrades are a must on most junglers, though more than often you won't be allowed to rush it asap, since it'll make you too squishy, but the passive gains is a must-have for mid/late-game imo.
On May 21 2013 12:01 xes wrote: How are people skilling new Nunu?
It used to be E>W>Q which gave you pretty good ganks and then by midgame you have enough pts in W to just make your ADC awesome.
Q>E>W now? Just 3 pts in Q then E>W (gives an extra 2 pts in W for midgame)
Q, W, E all have great scaling with levels in the skill no more 1 pt wonders D:
W's scaling is horrible. You used to get 10% as per level, now you're getting 5%. The differences in MS is about 16. After the support nunu nerfs my r>e>w>q led to many losses because my teams were fucking terrible. You really need the faster jungling as far as I'm concerned. Q scales super well now instead of being completely worthless after the first point, and useful at the last point.
If the jungle camp spawn changes go to 1:55 like on the PBE, red invades all fucking day, just like in S2. I need to get in more games though, going -16 in just a week or two because of complete retards is really frustrating.
agreed that you should be maxing q for jungle yeti, you clear massively and there's also a lot of utility on it
i've been running a health stack oriented build: start philo parts/3, rush philo into warmogs, then locket, bulwark, shurelyas, and randuins or sv.
can easily break 5k hp, and once you finish warmogs you can tower dive all day. bonus points if you are ahead enough to convert the philo into ohmwrecker for moar lulz
I feel that if you max Q your ganks are gonna be weak. His E is the strongest in his kit at the moment (aside from the buffs you get from jungle). Nunu's main issue in the jungle is not so much the bigger creeps as the smaller ones, and maxing Q does not solve the problem. With his passive you should be able to get 1-2 free ice blasts off on most jungle camps anyways.
Why don't you wanna get spectral wraith? I feel like the spirit stone upgrades are a must on most junglers, though more than often you won't be allowed to rush it asap, since it'll make you too squishy, but the passive gains is a must-have for mid/late-game imo.
I also misread that, he didn't say to max q first (which is what I read even though he didn't say that), but that you should max q now.
I used to do the HP stack on nunu, but I would always get fucking destroyed, especially with people incorrectly going botrk first item. With people going back to tanky junglers, I've returned to anti carry build, I go play with their ad carry and push him out of the fight while he does no damage to me. At the same time I almost always pull their support and someone else, while their jungler and possibly top lane gets to deal with a bb ad.
I also have no interest in getting spectral wraith. Nunu doesn't have sustain problems, only mana problems. And he needs to get tanky asap because he isn't that disruptive with cc in teamfights. After snowball, and if your ult is interrupted, you have nothing to do for 4-6 seconds depending on your cdr. And this happens whenever your snowball is on cd.
On May 21 2013 12:01 xes wrote: How are people skilling new Nunu?
It used to be E>W>Q which gave you pretty good ganks and then by midgame you have enough pts in W to just make your ADC awesome.
Q>E>W now? Just 3 pts in Q then E>W (gives an extra 2 pts in W for midgame)
Q, W, E all have great scaling with levels in the skill no more 1 pt wonders D:
W's scaling is horrible. You used to get 10% as per level, now you're getting 5%. The differences in MS is about 16. After the support nunu nerfs my r>e>w>q led to many losses because my teams were fucking terrible. You really need the faster jungling as far as I'm concerned. Q scales super well now instead of being completely worthless after the first point, and useful at the last point.
If the jungle camp spawn changes go to 1:55 like on the PBE, red invades all fucking day, just like in S2. I need to get in more games though, going -16 in just a week or two because of complete retards is really frustrating.
agreed that you should be maxing q for jungle yeti, you clear massively and there's also a lot of utility on it
i've been running a health stack oriented build: start philo parts/3, rush philo into warmogs, then locket, bulwark, shurelyas, and randuins or sv.
can easily break 5k hp, and once you finish warmogs you can tower dive all day. bonus points if you are ahead enough to convert the philo into ohmwrecker for moar lulz
I feel that if you max Q your ganks are gonna be weak. His E is the strongest in his kit at the moment (aside from the buffs you get from jungle). Nunu's main issue in the jungle is not so much the bigger creeps as the smaller ones, and maxing Q does not solve the problem. With his passive you should be able to get 1-2 free ice blasts off on most jungle camps anyways.
Why don't you wanna get spectral wraith? I feel like the spirit stone upgrades are a must on most junglers, though more than often you won't be allowed to rush it asap, since it'll make you too squishy, but the passive gains is a must-have for mid/late-game imo.
I also misread that, he didn't say to max q first (which is what I read even though he didn't say that), but that you should max q now.
I used to do the HP stack on nunu, but I would always get fucking destroyed, especially with people incorrectly going botrk first item. With people going back to tanky junglers, I've returned to anti carry build, I go play with their ad carry and push him out of the fight while he does no damage to me. At the same time I almost always pull their support and someone else, while their jungler and possibly top lane gets to deal with a bb ad.
I also have no interest in getting spectral wraith. Nunu doesn't have sustain problems, only mana problems. And he needs to get tanky asap because he isn't that disruptive with cc in teamfights. After snowball, and if your ult is interrupted, you have nothing to do for 4-6 seconds depending on your cdr. And this happens whenever your snowball is on cd.
Health-stacking has its uses (especially if enemy AD gets fed and rushes BT, and they don't have other bork users on the team), but i'm still leaning towards aura-bot with spectral wraith as my only source of damage. The spellvamp with your ult is too retarded to pass up.
On May 24 2013 04:19 xes wrote: The scaling buff duration on Q is really good, I think you want at least 3 or 4 pts in it by lvl 13.
You should have it maxed by 13, don't bother shoving extra points into your W early, it has become a late game utility spell, you'll get much more from just skilling into Q and E.
I haven't tried it myself, but in theory it should be pretty good, especially if you get boots5. I'm just such a huge fan of locket, that i never felt the need to try it out.
Darius, Renekton, Riven are probably the best matchups you can pick at the moment. Rushing tons of MR on Nasus and Irelia can also work, though they admittedly both have a rough time pre-7. People who push crazy fast are also generally good vs. Nunu, guys like Singed and Mordekaiser can kinda just shove creep waves and ignore the lane with excessive amounts of backs to mitigate Nunu's sustain.
Top-lane diana can fuck you over pretty hard. I tried that once, never again.
Lee sin is also brutal, along with renekton as smash said. The whole back and forth play that both of those champs does is just retarded.
Darius i haven't tried and Riven is sorta a counter, but only if she gets a gank on you, however she has to play so agressive to keep punishing you that she will be very vulnerable to ganks.
Irelia and nasus gets donked pretty darn hard from my experience.
EDIT: There's also yorick and cho'gath who turns the lane into a giant farm fest. It's hard 1-5, but if you survive, you'll both be hitting 180-200 cs by 20 min.
Do you have to build spell vamp to do the lvl 3 dragon cheese, or can you do it with a more conventional AS marks movespeed quints? Also, when do you place the ward to tank a dragon shot?
On June 01 2013 21:21 Sponkz wrote: Top-lane diana can fuck you over pretty hard. I tried that once, never again.
Lee sin is also brutal, along with renekton as smash said. The whole back and forth play that both of those champs does is just retarded.
Darius i haven't tried and Riven is sorta a counter, but only if she gets a gank on you, however she has to play so agressive to keep punishing you that she will be very vulnerable to ganks.
Irelia and nasus gets donked pretty darn hard from my experience.
EDIT: There's also yorick and cho'gath who turns the lane into a giant farm fest. It's hard 1-5, but if you survive, you'll both be hitting 180-200 cs by 20 min.
On June 01 2013 21:21 Sponkz wrote: Top-lane diana can fuck you over pretty hard. I tried that once, never again.
Lee sin is also brutal, along with renekton as smash said. The whole back and forth play that both of those champs does is just retarded.
Darius i haven't tried and Riven is sorta a counter, but only if she gets a gank on you, however she has to play so agressive to keep punishing you that she will be very vulnerable to ganks.
Irelia and nasus gets donked pretty darn hard from my experience.
EDIT: There's also yorick and cho'gath who turns the lane into a giant farm fest. It's hard 1-5, but if you survive, you'll both be hitting 180-200 cs by 20 min.
wait
top diana beats nunu? da faq?
I'm still not sure what went wrong, but she managed to farm up to 6 without being that far behind (5-10 cs, no real xp lead) then she came back to lane with a negatron cloak and double dorans and started playing aggressively. I tried to counter-play, but she would E my ult every single time.
Diana shits on nunu. You can't break her shield, and with her free dashes with resets you can't get an advantage with movement speed. I had a very unpleasant experience against a mid diana once.
I've been trying out bulwark on nunu and I really like it. Against AP or split damage teams that is. If I'm against almost full AD the survivability really isn't there. I didn't like it before because of S2 damage was much more AD around the middle and end, so FH was just beastly (after the philo HoG shur). I've been buying lots of dodge boots, over swifties. And all the tanky cc junglers are back, which nunu shits on. Nunu is back to being king, getting my winrate back up after lots of losses.
Also I've never been a fan of mobos on nunu. With boots 1 his MS is hitting 425ish, which is just 15 below most other junglers who buy mobos. Also it's 650g, for an item with no defensive stats. I do run oom faster because of the increased need to keep BB up, but I'd rather have an extra back or two with 650 gold.
I find no need for an extra spirit item after golem. Wraith doesn't do anything for you because you don't get low in the jungle, and you should be running oom in teamfights before you're dying. Nunu needs to itemize around his power points in the game, because he really doesn't do anything. Getting an early item can boost or extend a dominant point in the game. Golem is HP, hp regen, mana regen, cdr, tenacity, increased spell damage to monsters. Stats that are almost all useful even when you're out of the jungle (other then the obvious). Nunu already crushes jungle camps since leveling q is good now. If wraith helped solve his huge mana issues, I might be in favor of it (but I think even chalice is too expensive to be pulling in the jungle).
edit: Also, someone said on a stream I was watching that the spirit items passive applies to Q, which it doesn't (that would be OP).
diana doesn't shit on nunu, she lacks sustain, dies to hybrid pen and AS/MS slows, your ice cube lets you kite all day, and if she uses her pull you just press r and collect gold. not to mention you have a better excuse to buy an earlier chalice->grail
if you are trying to fight her straight up, which it sounds like you are since you are trying to burst her shield in a short period, you are playing lane nunu completely wrong (if you fight anyone straight up you'll probably die). the point of lane nunu isn't to 100-0 win fights, but wear out their potions and all-in them if they are low.
also, new doran's ring is retarded on nunu, stack all day
So killing blue buff and small lizards, stealing the enemy red (not the small lizards) will put you at lvl 3 at about 2:30. So you can go gank top or bottom while they are still lvl 1. Like I thought, the perfect clusterfuck of slight q buff and jungle xp. It's not like S2 where you also steal their big wraith when it spawns, but I'd put it right up there anyways.
If they pick any slow jungler, naut, sej, nasus, or something with low MS, you're like a fucking shaco on that counterjungle and gank. You might be able to pull it off against a lee sin (though against faster junglers I just wait for the buff to hit the required 1120 hp and then take it from them).
use observer ward before the dragon is about to attack you
rofl that's insane! has anyone tested to see if it still works? ok tested, still works. Aparently nunu can solo baron at 15 minutes at lvl @ with spellvamp quints/spirit of spectral wraith/bluebuff and 9/0/21 masteries specing in the 10% cdr. Amazing.
use observer ward before the dragon is about to attack you
rofl that's insane! has anyone tested to see if it still works? ok tested, still works. Aparently nunu can solo baron at 15 minutes at lvl @ with spellvamp quints/spirit of spectral wraith/bluebuff and 9/0/21 masteries specing in the 10% cdr. Amazing.
it's actually easier to 15 minute baron than to cheese dragon like this
use observer ward before the dragon is about to attack you
rofl that's insane! has anyone tested to see if it still works? ok tested, still works. Aparently nunu can solo baron at 15 minutes at lvl @ with spellvamp quints/spirit of spectral wraith/bluebuff and 9/0/21 masteries specing in the 10% cdr. Amazing.
it's actually easier to 15 minute baron than to cheese dragon like this
o for sure, i had to practice the dragon cheese several times before i got it. Timing the ward drop to tank hits from the dragon is the difficult part. one thing about the dragon cheese build though. It's bad. U give up having attackspeed runes on nunu to be able to do it. U basically get a drag for ur team but then ur whole jungle clear time is absolutely shit. It's really not worth it. I just run spellvamp quints, attackspeed reds, armor yellows and scaling magic resist blues with 9/0/21. I don't go for the cheese. The spellvamp quints are super sick.
With Nunu being a highly common ban nowadays, and the only way to get him is through FP, i have tried something new that i feel like sharing. Keep in mind that i have a small sample size (3 solo queue games, 1 ranked 5v5), but i feel this works against almost every jungler. It's only suited for blue side, i can't imagine it being very safe on purple.
Pre-game: If your support has explorer's ward tell him to ward the brush near the "ramp" in your red jungle at 1.55. If the support doesn't have explorer's tell them to regular ward it. Tell your team, that if they see the enemy jungler trying to steal your red, they should lock him in and rape him. Also tell your team to stand a little forward towards the brush near purple sides blue so it looks like you start on red. It makes the invade really safe.
1.55: Start blue, get it low, use Q, level up, DO NOT KILL THE SMALL MINIONS! Take your W, run ASAP to the enemy red-buff. Pull the buff into the brush, get it low and finish it with Q+Smite.
From here you have a variety of choices.
If the enemy jungler tries to steal your red, either go help your team, or if you think they'll have an easy time rapping the living shit out of him do your thing. Steal the big wraith, steal the big golem, back off.
You will always be able to get the buff, before the jungler arrives, because you didn't take the effort to clear your small camp. You can try to force a flash on the person, if their mid-laner is weak early on (Kha'zix, Anivia etc.), i mostly just back off, but it highly depends on the situation. Go back and clear the small minions at blue and TIME IT.
Now why are you doing this?
I find this tactic insanely useful, because you will now have an easy time invading the 2nd blue buff if your team is doing well. Your own blue is not up at the usual 7.20 so there is simply no chance of the enemy stealing it. Also, because you only steal the red buff and doesn't clear that either, it means that the enemy jungler will be slighty behind after either donating blue or getting it stolen by you. With the off-timers on your blue and red, it is much more easier and safe to counter-jungle, because there is simply no risk of having anything but the small camps taken from you, because you time your own red and blue.
Obviously 4 games is too small of a sample size, to say this is 100% legit, however with the popularity of Nunu, everyone expects you to counter-jungle somehow, and this is a really safe method in solo queue. Just make sure to check the enemy supports ward counts when he/she walks into lane, aswell as the mid-laner, because if it's warded you might have to burn your flash to escape.
I'm a noob jungler and I need advice.. When I play Nunu I tend to counter jungle a lot (I try to get every ennemy buff) hence not ganking much, is it ok or should I try not to fuck the ennemy jungler that much and gank more ? (I know it's situationnal but what do you guys do in general ? More ganking or more counterjungling ?) Also how do you jugnle ? If I don't get blue buff I run out of mana very fast because I spam my abilities a lot in order to clear faster, is it wrong ? And is Chalice worth ?
On July 10 2013 22:01 Lylat wrote: I'm a noob jungler and I need advice.. When I play Nunu I tend to counter jungle a lot (I try to get every ennemy buff) hence not ganking much, is it ok or should I try not to fuck the ennemy jungler that much and gank more ? (I know it's situationnal but what do you guys do in general ? More ganking or more counterjungling ?) Also how do you jugnle ? If I don't get blue buff I run out of mana very fast because I spam my abilities a lot in order to clear faster, is it wrong ? And is Chalice worth ?
Nunu's ganks are generally pretty meh. Usually your time is better spent counterjungling. Yes, you do run out of mana pretty quick, but getting Chalice is not worth. You can't spam iceballs on jungle camps but I find that with Spirit Stone using only W and Q I am quite fine both mana-wise and clear-wise.
Even at summoner level 5 I had no mana issues once I got Spirit Stone. Bloodboil+passive give lots of free damage, and if you take 2-3 pts in consume early clear camps quickly. Remember you're supposed to mainly countergank and spend a lot of time in THEIR jungle and only killing 1 monster per camp.
On July 10 2013 22:01 Lylat wrote: I'm a noob jungler and I need advice.. When I play Nunu I tend to counter jungle a lot (I try to get every ennemy buff) hence not ganking much, is it ok or should I try not to fuck the ennemy jungler that much and gank more ? (I know it's situationnal but what do you guys do in general ? More ganking or more counterjungling ?) Also how do you jugnle ? If I don't get blue buff I run out of mana very fast because I spam my abilities a lot in order to clear faster, is it wrong ? And is Chalice worth ?
You should counter-jungle AND counter-gank. If you just counter jungle and the enemy jungler says fuck it i'll just gank lanes then it can be a huge problem. If you do both you screw him xp/gold wise while making sure ur lanes are good and can get kills off it too. Nunu is one of the best junglers for controlling objectives(baron,buffs,dragon).
Now I think Nunu has more of a gatekeeper role. He destroys non-top tier top champions but is meh against the good ones. He might be one of the best choices for crushing non-standard tops though. It's just so hard to screw up as nunu.
On July 31 2013 10:15 Mogwai wrote: he's significantly nerfed. still kinda works, but it's definitely less effective than before. I've crippled my baby for the sake of the game.
shame, but it's for the best I suppose. On another note, do you see yourself updating your blog any time soon? I understand that you can't really "force" a blog and that the idea has to come to you first, but do you have any ideas in the pipeline at least? Love reading them.
EPT
)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qMIzO.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w0Is9.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ogm8sfS.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KlIKfeo.jpg)
