EPT[Champion] Veigar - Page 7
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
On June 11 2011 06:28 Two_DoWn wrote: Played against a viegar today. If he gets help, he can be really good. However, you basically have to dedicate a member of your team to constantly ganking his lane just to give him a shot at staying in it. What? No. Veigar's way stronger in lane than he's given credit for. You just have to be good at it. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
It says that it was created on Nov. of 2010. With all the patches that have gone through that time, is this build still accurate? I happen to do a COMPLETELY different build on Veigar and it's very efficient. TL, what do you think? Is this guide still very accurate? If not, then what must be done for Veigar to be even more imba than he already is? | ||
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Jaso
United States2147 Posts
I think the only thing that matters to Veigar really is coordination with your team and itemization. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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Cosmology
Canada360 Posts
But i was thinking of starting hp regen thing and then going philo stone into eleisa's miracle, thoughts? I also heard tear was the best first item on him. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
Mindset: Veigar is one of the most fragile champs and he needs to be treated that way. DO NOT get close to your enemy. That is why E exists. It enables you to stun from far away and land all your spells without getting close to them. Early game, Veigar is very weak and mana hungry. Do not be aggressive early game. Late game is where Veigar shines. Although Veigar has trouble taking down tanks, his spell combo can wreak havoc on non-AP champs. There are many times when I stunned a champ, used my combos, and by the time my stun was over, he was dead. He can be incredibly strong if you know how to play him. Spell Level Order: Level 1: Q Level 2: E Level 3: W Then start maxing Q as soon as you can. Level your E one more time if your lane enemy gets tenacity item. Otherwise, he will break free of your stun before you can fully combo him. Q is maxed first because it really helps with Q farming. W is very mana hungry spell and really used in conjuction with your stun. You're not gonna be using W very much early game because you need to use E + W for your W to land, and that's too much mana usage, even with tears. E is maxed second. W is maxed last. Mastery: 9-0-21 Get 9 in Offensive so you can get the M. Penetration, and then 21 in Utility so you can have shorter CD on your summoner spells. Veigar is also very mana hungry in beginning, that is another reason why you get 21 in utility with focus on mana regeneration. The 3rd reason why 21 utility is a must is because Veigar is also very dependent on Cooldowns. 9-0-21 gives the best CDR mastery Runes: Magic Penetration Reds Mana Regen per level Yellows Cooldown Reduction Blues 1 Movement Speed Quint 2 Magic Penetration Quints The reason for Movement speed is that it will help Veigar since he's not very fast and fragile. Remember that if your veigar gets caught, unless you have your E or summoner spells up, he is gonna die. I also like to get 1 so that you are faster than the enemy Veigar. Summoner Spells: Cleanse + Flash or Ignite + Flash Veigar being fragile as he is, Flash is a MUST. He must have a defensive skill. I put 2 defensive skills on my Veigar because enemy team likes to focus me down after I start wreaking havoc. Ghost is not recommended because a CC'd veigar will die incredibly quick. Cleanse vs. Ignite Ignite is a useful offensive skill. Although I don't think it perfectly complements his playstyle, ignite can be used with his bursty skills. However, I choose to get Cleanse over Ignite because of how fragile Veigar is. Sure, you can use your E to prevent people from coming at you but what are you gonna do if a Nocturne ults you from way elsewhere and starts fearing you? You already used your stun, and he's probably quicker than you too. This is where Cleanse + Flash will save your ass. Items: Your core item is Deathfire Grasp. No Buts. Cooldown Reduction, some little AP, and a very very useful spell that you will use in conjuction with your other spells. That extra spell acts like another mini version of his R. Would you rather have another item give you 80 AP, which will make your total damage output of your 3 other spells go up a small percentage, or would you rather have 4 offensive spells? It also works as health % ratio, so it really helps take down that beefy magic resist champ. Beginning Item: Meki Pendant + 2 Health Potions Grab Boots then rush for Deathfire Grasp. At this point, you can choose to either start building: a) Rod of Ages b) Tears c) Mejai's Long ago, I used to build Mejai's but snowball items can be very risky, so RoA is the best choice here imo. I don't really build tears / Archangels because I would rather have some extra life than the AP it offers. Depending on enemy composition, choose between RoA or Archangel. I don't recommend getting both. After your finish your 3rd core item and sorcerer's shoes, your 4th item should be Deathcap. Huge AP boost. 5th item/6th item should be Void Staff and a defensive item like Banshee's Veil or Zhonya depending on if the enemy team is AP or AD concentrated. Moonblade is also useful for its tenacity, and can be built as 2nd or 3rd item. My item build usually: Deathfire Grasp / Sorcerer Shoes / Rod of Ages / Deathcap / Void Staff / Banshees How you engage: Always use your E to start your engage. While enemy is stunned, W first, then DFG spell, then Q, then R. DO NOT USE YOUR R UNLESS YOU KNOW THAT IT WILL KILL YOUR ENEMY. I hate seeing noob Veigars using their R and not finishing off enemies. There is a reason why his R is so strong and why it has such a long cooldown. You want to nuke the enemy in 1 combo set. If you feel like you cannot nuke him in 1 combo, you whittle down his health or wait for it to go down before engaging him. A simple version of his harrass would be shooting Q's, then retreating. This is risky because Q doesn't have long range, and if you get too close, you're risking your life. A better version of his harrass would be E -> W -> Q, but this is very mana consuming. I tend to harrass like this after I grab Blue or it gets to late game. Make sure to grab Blue. Level 9~11 is a good level to get Blue. Veigar has higher priority than most AP champs, even though the majority of public are ignorant about it. Combined with your masteries, runes, and DFG, it should give you max CDR. It will free up your mana problems so you can spam your spells and Q farm as much as you would like. Practice landing your E's so that when you land it, the edge of the ring directly hits the enemy. You can differentiate good Veigars from bad ones by seeing how they use their E. Don't be stupid and shoot W's everywhere without stunning them first. Only bad champs get hit by Veigar's obvious/slow W. | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7582 Posts
I run mpen reds movespeed quints with flat mana regen blues and yellow. 9/0/21 with boots 3 pot opening. Flash/TP usually, ignite if I can and if needed, and exhaust if absolutely needed. Reason being: Veigar is a fragile champion. Yes he has a stun, but your laning should consist of 1) not dying/getting zoned and 2) getting q + farm. Having a high movespeed allows you to get those q and last hits in, as well as running away/dodging what enemies can throw at you. Start boots however, leaves you at low manapool because you cannot open dring. So the flat mana regen helps you until your first back. Additionally, having low mana means you won't be able to get a E and Q off should the jungler gank or you're needed in a skirmish somewhere. Basically using a runeset to bolster the extremely weak early game Veigar has. After first trip back, I will usually buy two drings, and probably a ward or two. Actually that's what I always bought except one game where I tried to go codex first. Farming right (qing when you have the chance, getting most of the last hits that are possible [very important]) I will have some pots left over from the initial pots because I don't trade blows the first laning phase. The rings will provide additional health so you don't die to some burst and you'll most likely escape with a well-placed stun and flash. Rings give you the stats you want. Then I will go for a deathcap -> whatever is necessary. I actually don't know the math behind deathcap vs dfg so it might be better to do the other way around or whatever. Items can be anything from revolver(wota), void, banshee/qss, Zhonya's. Boots mercs usually but maybe sorcs are worth buying especially given utility of his stun. But I'm a coward so I always go mercs. Now... skillwise. R>Q should be obvious but I max stun first because that stun is incredibly powerful if well-casted. The range is 600 and the radius is approximately 400 so it's instant death for enemy squishes should you land it well (meaning they can't flash). Stun duration goes up by only .25 each level with initial duration of 1.5 so it's definitely less. I should try only leveling to 2/3 so I can get more burst in with w especially with its high base damage + 1.0 scaling. I have not been doing it saying 'W drains my manapool' but now that I constantly have blue (sometimes even getting enemy AP's blue lol) I think W is the right way. But then with 1.0 scaling base damage is 120 + 50 per level so... situational I suppose. Mmm too long a rant. TLDR: 9/0/21 Flash/TP so I can always farm and have presense as well as if something goes wrong mid you have another chance to not get too behind. Movespeed quints + flat mana regen blues and yellows to cover for his early weakness; coupled with boots opening you should focus on farming and almost never harassing (at least until first trip back). First trip: drings + ward + potions; need experience with codex. Need input/math on dfg v ring->deathcap. Input on cata if anyone thinks if it's possible. R>Q>E>W but need input on W>E after couple of levels in stun; I think it's situational (2.5 seconds of stun on someone who doesn't have tenacity is huge). EDIT: I think meki opening is horrible unless enemy champs selection AND the player doesn't know how to play against veigar. I won't say it confidently because I don't have the necessary experience, but I don't see you doing better than boot opening, and even my old HPregen quint/ring opening. EDIT: After your first trip, you should be getting blue. Here you can use E-Q or Q-E-Q in lane and threaten to finish off enemy mid. Your Q at level 4-5 will do quite the damage with 2 drings and the AP you farmed up. | ||
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Lorken
New Zealand804 Posts
MPen reds Mana/5/level Yellow CDR blues Movespeed Quints Normal caster masteries with modified teleport and flash. Spells: Flash, teleport Items: Meki pendant+ 2 health pots Tears + boots Large rod CDR boots Rabadon's deathcap Void staff Archangle's staff BV/Negation cloak or Zonya's hourglass depending on enemies | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
One of you should just make the new thread. | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7582 Posts
EDIT: I should add that a good Veigar needs two things apart from standard mechanics (last hitting, positioning, etc): stunning correctly and precisely, and from lategame learning to divide damage because the targets you do want to 1HKO if possible will not need full combination of QWR+DFG. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:39 TheYango wrote: This thread needs a reset. The OP is out of date, and the "discussion" has boiled down to 3 people making consecutive posts that are their own guides. One of you should just make the new thread. we could take a vote depending on what people prefer. or ask the OP/mod to edit it into his front page | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:44 Wala.Revolution wrote: Didn't even notice OP was that out of date haha. I would make one but I'm not that confident without experience in 'real' games with him. But he should be played more because his damage is pretty good with ability to instantly-KO targets and utility of the unique stun in fights. EDIT: I should add that a good Veigar needs two things apart from standard mechanics (last hitting, positioning, etc): stunning correctly and precisely, and from lategame learning to divide damage because the targets you do want to 1HKO if possible will not need full combination of QWR+DFG. In general, W R kills an AP carry and DFG W kills a range AD. Add Q to whoever needs that extra bit of damage. If they're all low (low being ~2/3 depending on how game is going), W Q kills a support for instant triple kill huehuehue. But usually you can reliably get a double if they're at like 2/3-3/4health. Just split three ways if your team is in range to follow up for your stun even if they're at full health. Full to zero double kills are amazingly satisfying though, but you need to be pretty ahead. only had one full to zero triple kill and I was extremely fed that game ;o Doesn't work as well if you don't take AP quints and AP/lvl blues though. I still think mana regen blues are worthless. I think MPen quints are pretty worthless too. AP/MS/HP all better, though I never use HP anymore.. I don't like HP regen quints either. DFG opening > D Cap opening almost always. Tear -> D cap only if you really think you're gonna be completely useless for the first ~25 minutes of the game. Like -completely- useless, because if you go this build, you'll be completely worthless, and if you could've brought any sort of damage to your team before that just buy the DFG. I haven't actually gone tear/dcap opening in like months. RoA is trash item don't get it. WotA is pretty shitty on him too imo. I only played like ~5 games with it though so I could be wrong on that count. But there are just other items that are better. Only 6 item slots, and DFG, boots, hat, zhonya, void, b veil, GA all take precedence over WotA imo. CDR boots also suck since you should be getting DFG/blue for max CDR. Like seriously get that item. It's literally the only core item on Veigar. Don't understand how you can play Veigar without a DFG. I used to not do it and then I got it and realized I was being a complete retard before. I got it after hat then his ult ratio got buffed and I got better at farming and I just got it as first item. Nothing else except boots1 is a must get on him... Nothing wrong with opening Meki you're just bad wala ^^ | ||
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Cosmology
Canada360 Posts
On October 12 2011 18:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: In general, W R kills an AP carry and DFG W kills a range AD. Add Q to whoever needs that extra bit of damage. If they're all low (low being ~2/3 depending on how game is going), W Q kills a support for instant triple kill huehuehue. But usually you can reliably get a double if they're at like 2/3-3/4health. Just split three ways if your team is in range to follow up for your stun even if they're at full health. Full to zero double kills are amazingly satisfying though, but you need to be pretty ahead. only had one full to zero triple kill and I was extremely fed that game ;o Doesn't work as well if you don't take AP quints and AP/lvl blues though. I still think mana regen blues are worthless. I think MPen quints are pretty worthless too. AP/MS/HP all better, though I never use HP anymore.. I don't like HP regen quints either. DFG opening > D Cap opening almost always. Tear -> D cap only if you really think you're gonna be completely useless for the first ~25 minutes of the game. Like -completely- useless, because if you go this build, you'll be completely worthless, and if you could've brought any sort of damage to your team before that just buy the DFG. I haven't actually gone tear/dcap opening in like months. RoA is trash item don't get it. WotA is pretty shitty on him too imo. I only played like ~5 games with it though so I could be wrong on that count. But there are just other items that are better. Only 6 item slots, and DFG, boots, hat, zhonya, void, b veil, GA all take precedence over WotA imo. CDR boots also suck since you should be getting DFG/blue for max CDR. Like seriously get that item. It's literally the only core item on Veigar. Don't understand how you can play Veigar without a DFG. I used to not do it and then I got it and realized I was being a complete retard before. I got it after hat then his ult ratio got buffed and I got better at farming and I just got it as first item. Nothing else except boots1 is a must get on him... Nothing wrong with opening Meki you're just bad wala ^^ Here is what my average games have been like and also my runes and masteries. Standard mage amsteries, 9/0/21, and MPen Reds, Mana regen/lvl yellows, ap/lvl blues and flat ap quints. I go Meki Pendant and 2 health pots into fiendish codex. I then get sorc boots. Then i get Rabby's Deathcap then finish my DFG. I then decide between Zhonya's, BV or Void Staff, if any of them get MR I get void staff then either Zhonya's or BV. I really don't know what to get for a 6th item, anyways I would like you to kind of tell me your thoughts on my build. Also, I need help laning against aggressive laners, I play solo queue and I find if the mid makes it his mission to shut me down and zone me, i can't do shit about it, that's why I run TP, so if i have to go back, I can try to get back to lane fast. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
 I think he can be super strong though with his high damage and interesting stun mechanic, hes just too squishy, which is why I generally like to see the other team pick him in elo hell where no one is good. I can imagine him being a monster in the right hands though but I haven't seen him used in any of the tournaments where the good teams play in.Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that he needs ganks to sustain but I think if you put him bot with a good support that doesn't need farm he can still farm ap all day and be fine with sustain. | ||
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Cosmology
Canada360 Posts
On October 13 2011 07:40 Slaughter wrote: If your Veigar then please don't last pick him when the other team is light on AP and your team has a Karthus then demand to go mid vs Akali and get demolished and suck at farming AP or even last hitting. I think he can be super strong though with his high damage and interesting stun mechanic, hes just too squishy....cool? | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On October 13 2011 07:40 Slaughter wrote: Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that he needs ganks to sustain but I think if you put him bot with a good support that doesn't need farm he can still farm ap all day and be fine with sustain. Veigar sucks bot don't do it. DON'T DO IT!!! He needs levels and 2 people zone him much easier than one, really doesn't matter who your support is. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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