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On March 11 2011 01:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
The problem with CDR ashe is that it's an extremely selfish build. You can kite a whole lot but your carrying power is going to be very mediocre compared to their DPS that went infinity edge/green pot/zerker greaves. You're annoying as fuck but you'll probably end up being the last one alive and running back to base by yourself because the other team's primary DPS will output so much more single-target damage than you.
I don't think CDR/armor pen stacking is a bad combination on ashe, but it's not good to overcommit to those stats.
At this exact point, Infinity Edge+Boots vs GB+B+Boots, the two builds have comparable damage. Against some targets, GB/B has MORE autoattack DPS, not considering the CDR or the GB Active. With the active, GB/B has more DPS in almost all cases. Worst case is GB/B DPS being a few percent lower than IE DPS, but that is again ignoring the CDR which greatly increases your overall DPS via Volley, but that's hard to quantify. The big advantage of IE is the better scaling into LATEgame. But GB/B -> Black Cleaver stays up there with IE -> LW/BC/PD for quite a while, and games usually end at that point.
On March 11 2011 01:29 TheYango wrote:
CDR/APen is perfectly fine for actually killing people. That's what its good at. CDR/APen doesn't help you break towers though, which is part of why people take ranged carries in the first place.
The math on CDR/APen builds for DPS works out pretty favorably compared to IE-based builds IIRC, it's just that a bunch of the stats you itemize for don't contribute to vs. tower damage.
You cannot crit on towers either, so neither GB/B nor IE based builds really shine there. GB/B brings 55 AD vs towers, IE 75. GB also has 4 seconds of 50% ASpd although you rarely want to use that on towers. IE still has a slight advantage there, but if you want DPS vs towers you better go for Bloodthirsters.
On March 11 2011 01:37 Juicyfruit wrote:
On a different matter:
learning how to last-hit enemies (KS) with ashe without dropping your DPS real important.
Don't have Shen on your team.
Lack of KSing is one of my weaknesses when playing carries... I just have too much of this team mentality...
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On March 11 2011 01:37 Juicyfruit wrote:
On a different matter:
learning how to last-hit enemies (KS) with ashe without dropping your DPS real important.
I'm god damn awful at this. Everytime I play ashe I end up 3/3/15 or something like that lololol.
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see, GB/B OP
![[image loading]](http://oi53.tinypic.com/2ly05rp.jpg)
only time I ever seen it, and it was so strong, always kill, never die, always win, never lose.
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if taric built armor like she was supposed to u need lw on ashe
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are you implying that GRB Taric is suboptimal?
Can't you see that's a ranked game? everyone trying at the maximum that game, and ashe build #1 of all that, always kill, never die.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 11 2011 01:37 Juicyfruit wrote:
On a different matter:
learning how to last-hit enemies (KS) with ashe without dropping your DPS real important.
I'd argue that's a good skill to learn in general, not just for Ashe.
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On March 11 2011 02:45 Mogwai wrote:
are you implying that GRB Taric is suboptimal?
Can't you see that's a ranked game? everyone trying at the maximum that game, and ashe build #1 of all that, always kill, never die.
no i mean u can't go gb/b every game because there will usually be at least 2 ppl with +120 armor and u need lw, otherwise u do very little dps
also its a shitty build.
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that's what the wit's end is for, duh. #1 build.
real.
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the wit's end was a pretty good item this game. their team was 90% magic
i understand you're bored because riot's servers are bad again, but don't derail this thread please.
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On March 11 2011 03:09 HeavOnEarth wrote:
the wit's end was a pretty good item this game. their team was 90% magic
i understand you're bored because riot's servers are bad again, but don't derail this thread please.
I'm bored at work, it has nothing to do with the servers being down.
anyway, dropping the whole troll act, GB/B is a gimmicky build but it is effective from time to time and when you're looking to add another offensive item, BC is always right choice. the build has very little to do with volley poking IMO and more to do with establishing map control and picking someone off with ECA every 45 seconds. It's all in on winning the game early, but most games until pretty high elo are decided just by feeding off baddies and are "over" well before the 30 minute mark and in games like those, the build is pretty effective.
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Actually this game BC doesnt do much, as the armor pen on BC would just reduce , for example, sions ~30 or corkis ~45 armor to 0, making the rest of your armor pen do essentially nothing. ( it would already negate his armor to 0 )
ECA is generally always off CD to be able to pick off someone for teamfights. Unless you mean shooting crossmap arrows every chance u get with 40% cdr. But i doubt u will still be "laning" once u hit 40% cdr.
So therefore the only real use for CDR is volley spam, which i find very lackluster, and i covered the armor pen benefits, by saying most games there will be +120 armor tanks which u need lw for.
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On March 11 2011 03:35 HeavOnEarth wrote:
Actually this game BC doesnt do much, as the armor pen on BC would just reduce , for example, sions ~30 or corkis ~45 armor to 0, making the rest of your armor pen do essentially nothing. ( it would already negate his armor to 0 )
hmm, I suppose it depends, but typically speaking, people accidentally end up up around 70-100 armor. For instance, in that game, with Taric still around, everyone would be functioning with shatter and aegis, which is a solid +50ish armor until you drop the taric. With full ArPen Marks and Quints with GB/B, you sit at 60 ArPen, meaning that BC would be ideal vs. targets in the 90-105 Armor Range (probably still better than anything else below 150ish too) with IE being a better choice vs. lower armor teams and higher armor teams basically completely screwing over your GB/B investment.
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On March 11 2011 03:35 HeavOnEarth wrote:ECA is generally always off CD to be able to pick off someone for teamfights. Unless you mean shooting crossmap arrows every chance u get with 40% cdr. But i doubt u will still be "laning" once u hit 40% cdr.
So therefore the only real use for CDR is volley spam, which i find very lackluster, and i covered the armor pen benefits, by saying most games there will be +120 armor tanks which u need lw for.
I'm more talking about mid game play and taking excessive shots in the jungle while players are shifting around between lanes/jungle objectives. CDR is sorta like mana in that if you're not being excessive with the use of it, it's a useless stat to have. Like, I understand what you're saying and agree when it comes to conventional high level play, but I'm just saying that having a 45 second CD ECA lets you take more risks with it more for punishing people being slightly out of position. And lower hawkshot CD is also fairly useful in that it lets you pretty much keep a permanent eye on an objective between hawk + CV through the opposing team keeping ward control via oracles or w/e.
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On March 11 2011 03:03 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 02:45 Mogwai wrote:
are you implying that GRB Taric is suboptimal?
Can't you see that's a ranked game? everyone trying at the maximum that game, and ashe build #1 of all that, always kill, never die. no i mean u can't go gb/b every game because there will usually be at least 2 ppl with +120 armor and u need lw, otherwise u do very little dps also its a shitty build.
Assuming 25 APen from runes/masteries and 1 Doran's Blade, PA = Pickaxe, no actives, only autoattacks, level 18 Ashe.
target 180 armor
GB/B/BC 2 stacks: 192 DPS
IE/LW/PA: 209 DPS
(GB:IE 92%)
target 120 armor
GB/B/BC 2 stacks: 281 DPS
IE/LW/PA: 257 DPS
(GB:IE 112%)
target 90 armor
GB/B/BC 2 stacks: 365 DPS
IE/LW/PA: 290 DPS
(GB:IE 126%)
92% doesn't seem "very little" to me (just slightly less), and that is, again, ignoring the CDR and the active. Yep, GB/B/BFS vs IE/LW turns out more in favor of IE, that's obvious. But Volley+Ghostblade makes up for it anyways.
My point is, the "GB/B has very little DPS" argument is a myth. It's sometimes less, but ONLY for autoattacks and against targets that get armor, and not by so much that it cannot be made up for.
Oh and most champs range from 75 to 90 base armor at lvl 18.
Assuming 25 APen from runes/masteries, the APen breakeven point between GB/B/BC and LW is 200 armor.
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Ashe already has huge utility compared to other ranged dps champs. What she lacks is damage.
Advocating risky and highly aggresive arrow play is kinda like running 21 utilty ashe and putting yourself in highly risky spots when you need ghost + flash to get out, but may or may not result in a kill or tilt the teamfight in your favor.
I mean its nice and all do to that so u can learn but after a while you'll realize that playing safe and conservative is the best, consistent way to play
Typically i aim for:
-hitting 100% of your arrows
-having 0 deaths
Rather than
- shoot a huge number of arrows , hitting 75%
- dying more but possibly netting more kills and towers
It's not to say i never played aggressively, actually when im learning a champion i play them hyper-aggressively, so i can learn every different situation, and what i can get away with, but on ashe that style just doesn't pay off, believe me i've tried.
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why the f would i get a pickaxe after ie lw.
ashe needs atk speed after ie LW obviously B/GB/clever is gona do more dps because BC gives atk speed.
ie lw zeal would be the accurate statement, and you dont calculate in crit chance at all, which would skew the higher dps towards ie by far
"APen breakeven point between GB/B/BC and LW is 200 armor."
ur comparing 1337 + 2k + 3k vs one 2k item.... in terms of armor pen which i dont even have to point out how absurd that is.
breakeven point is way lower than 200
besides that way besides the point. when there are 2 ppl with anything past chainvest with any kind of cc in ur face, ur not gonna be able to hit anything but them and if you try to hit squishes, you risk being caught in in a chain stun or horribly out of position, so u need lw.
lw helps you do more dmg vs tanks then gb/b, theres nothing to argue there.
so therefore lw helps you to maintain a good positioning in teamfights, and still be able to output dps.
formula for ranged carries is ( in this order)
1) positioning
2) outputting most dps
gb/b does more dps but e u would have to trade bad team-fight positioning to hit people with low armor , so it's not worth it.
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Again im gonna make another obvious assessment that, if you are playing on your level ~23 US smurf, tlspinesheath , people are going to pick 4 squishes and possibly a squishy jungler so BC /G B/B is obviously way better vs these kind of people.
Then when you come up to where every sidelane tank stacks 3 hogs and junglers are suddenly tanks with 200> armor , with solo lanes being offtanks with ~200 armor evnetually , you will realize your gb/b build is inferior
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Good point, here's GB/B/BC vs IE/LW/Zeal against 90 120 150 180 210 240 armor.
GB/B/BC 371 286 232 195 169 148
IE/LW/Z 329 292 262 237 217 200
CDR Ashe is NOT advocating risky play, it rather advocates staying out of range of everything that could kill you and deal damage from 1200 range.
lawl how stupid do you think I am? Crit Chance, Crit Damage, ASpd, everything is taken account for.
The part about APen breakeven point was just a sidenote, sorry I didn't make that too obvious.
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So.. literally like said 10 posts up, u need lw when there are 2 tanks with 120+ armor. . .
"CDR Ashe is NOT advocating risky play, it rather advocates staying out of range of everything that could kill you and deal damage from 1200 range."
i was making a reference to spamming arrows with 40% cdr is a nice way to learn how to play ashe,
sort of like how ghost/flash + 21 utilty is a nice way to learn how to cut corners.
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And now we come to the point where it becomes clear why CDR Ashe is not just a different build, but comes with a different mentality/playstyle.
CDR Ashe doesn't care if the tank dies. She kites him and whittles him down together with her team. If the rest of the enemy team comes close, they eat Volleys. Loads of them. Well over 50% higher Volley DPS with GB/B based builds instead of IE based builds. It's actually quite similar to Sivir, just with range + slow instead of spellshield + lifesteal.
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EPT
