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On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!
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On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!
Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.
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On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.
Outside of very early cheeses (proxy gates/barracks, 2nd pylon stargate), all races have tools to reliably scout the map though. Terrans have reapers, scan (although completely unpractical), and generally can afford 1-2 stray marines/SCVs. Zergs have overlords, stray lings and creep. Protoss have stalkers (early game),hallucination, the Msc and observers later on.
Yes, losing to proxy is infuriating and frustrating (especially when it happens repeatedly). But scouting/having a good mapvision is also a skill that should be rewarded. I remember a recent game where a protoss tried to proxy INnoVation, and the casters went "why is he even trying that, he should know that a player like INnoVation will find it", and indeed, INno scouted the proxy with his reaper. IMHO, the problem is more that even scouted, some cheeses/all-ins are tougher to defend than to execute. And that should not be the case, the burden should be on the player "trying to make the play" as you said.
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I just install warcraft 1, I'm sure you would love it as a competitive game :
no control group cause no group at all. All unit (and buildings) must be selected 1 by 1 through the mouse.
no "smart" click. If you right click nothing happen. You must move, attack or whatever through the keyboard.
pathing is shitty. Unit go the wrong way always and if you want to correct it, the reactivity is so slow
There might be other stuff but I just installed it and did few campaign games. So I don't know yet. But clearly I would say the skill ceiling is so high since you have to control every unit one by one and if you don't they take poor decision.
By the way, though I'm being kindda ironical here I find this game awesome for now. But I much prefer SC2 as a competitive game. MUCH prefer. I will agree with you that there is probably some way to make it better, but maybe we should stop looking at the past.
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On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.
I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.
Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)
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On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)
In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. It also encourages you to try to distract the Z when going on creep by harrassing somewhere else.
As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p
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On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p
Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.
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On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.
Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?
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On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game. Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?
No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.
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On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game. Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game? No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.
Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.
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On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game. Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game? No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with. Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.
I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.
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On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game. Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game? No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with. Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference. I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad. If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls. ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.
My argument is similar to Big J which is that the best way for a new player to actually be willing to go out to the map is if it was easier to see the map. Creep Spread has created a fantastic way to dictate, guide, and force action in the game. How easy/hard it is to spread is something that can be patched--but it has done nothing but fantastic things for the game as it has allowed both an easy way to dictate map presence without needing to reach max supply or having units run around non-stop. The same thing happened in Mech BW where the main army did not need to be spread everywhere are Mines provided vision and deterrence.
The difference between creep and mines comes from strength of deterrence and strength of vision. Creep gives better vision but mines gave better deterrence. In either case, it's always interesting watching players clear paths, poking each other's borders over and over without having it be a committed engagement each time.
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On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game. Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game? No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with. Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference. I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad. If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls. ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.
I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.
I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.
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On November 05 2015 01:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
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This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis! Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply. I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action) I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene. Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2) In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game. Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game? No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with. Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference. I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad. If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls. ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic. My argument is similar to Big J which is that the best way for a new player to actually be willing to go out to the map is if it was easier to see the map. Creep Spread has created a fantastic way to dictate, guide, and force action in the game. How easy/hard it is to spread is something that can be patched--but it has done nothing but fantastic things for the game as it has allowed both an easy way to dictate map presence without needing to reach max supply or having units run around non-stop. The same thing happened in Mech BW where the main army did not need to be spread everywhere are Mines provided vision and deterrence. The difference between creep and mines comes from strength of deterrence and strength of vision. Creep gives better vision but mines gave better deterrence. In either case, it's always interesting watching players clear paths, poking each other's borders over and over without having it be a committed engagement each time.
The best way for a new player to be willing to be out of the map is to FORCE him to be out on the map.
Creeps do this in mobas, the bomb situation does this in csgo.
Easy vision makes defensive play stronger, which leads to less action (less fun). That is how i see it atm.
Creep kinda forces action (but not really), so i don't think it is a good tool to get the game going either. (also zerg being the most mobile race makes it questionable to have such a strong defensive tool on it imo, observers for toss make a lot more sense)
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You don't seem to see a big flaw in your fog of war mechanic.
If you allow to see starting positions , you will produce a turtle fest. Imagine zvz with overlords over every mineral field right from the start. The player who puts his spawning pool first will be always in disadvantage - you put down your pool, I put down hatch and then pool , still defending your rush but being in better economical position.
If I can put a building up and shroud your vision, I can put down a hatch or a pool and you will still be forced to scout anyway. In pvt I will do it asap and still rush an oracle. Same goes for other matchups.
If you don't allow to see inside the main or natural, you have achieved nothing. I can still prepare a cheese if I deny you scouting and fly with an Oracle or banshee into your base, and seeing it on the map travelling will not give you enough time to prepare anyway.
If you put the shroud high in tech tree I will just look at your base and prepare a perfect counter for whatever your tech path is till you are able to put fog of war.
I can't imagine a way of making this work, probably because it doesn't.
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On November 05 2015 02:09 Nazara wrote:
You don't seem to see a big flaw in your fog of war mechanic.
If you allow to see starting positions , you will produce a turtle fest. Imagine zvz with overlords over every mineral field right from the start. The player who puts his spawning pool first will be always in disadvantage - you put down your pool, I put down hatch and then pool , still defending your rush but being in better economical position.
If I can put a building up and shroud your vision, I can put down a hatch or a pool and you will still be forced to scout anyway. In pvt I will do it asap and still rush an oracle. Same goes for other matchups.
If you don't allow to see inside the main or natural, you have achieved nothing. I can still prepare a cheese if I deny you scouting and fly with an Oracle or banshee into your base, and seeing it on the map travelling will not give you enough time to prepare anyway.
If you put the shroud high in tech tree I will just look at your base and prepare a perfect counter for whatever your tech path is till you are able to put fog of war.
I can't imagine a way of making this work, probably because it doesn't.
don't take it to literal for starcraft because it obviously would not work without massive changes in everything. but as far as I understand it, you start SC2 with a building, hence in the fog of war with that mechanic so you won't know when the opponent makes the pool.
And yes, what you describe is exactly the point: your base is still hidden and the opponent still has to scout. The rest of the map is not and so you don't have to hide when there is no actual pressure.
As you mention ZvZ, it is actually in parts already working that way. You place your first overlord im front of the opponents natural and then you basically know everything that is going on on the map for a long time, as you see everything that leaves the opponent's base. Also we can see that it doesnt lead to turtlefests. Because the tools in ZvZ (insane production, units reinforcing fast, no walls) rather make it so that it is actually too easy to enforce on your knowledge about what the opponent is doing. In short, you prevent turtling by creating tools for your game that work within the ruleset.
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You have pointed out to me that my suggestions would require big changes to zerg or go way overboard, yet you have no problem suggesting a mechanic that hasn't been tried or tested in any rts, or at least those that I know of.
And yes I take it quite literally, we may be talking about rts design in general, but this thread is starcraft focused.
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On November 05 2015 02:09 Nazara wrote:
You don't seem to see a big flaw in your fog of war mechanic.
If you allow to see starting positions , you will produce a turtle fest. Imagine zvz with overlords over every mineral field right from the start. The player who puts his spawning pool first will be always in disadvantage - you put down your pool, I put down hatch and then pool , still defending your rush but being in better economical position.
If I can put a building up and shroud your vision, I can put down a hatch or a pool and you will still be forced to scout anyway. In pvt I will do it asap and still rush an oracle. Same goes for other matchups.
If you don't allow to see inside the main or natural, you have achieved nothing. I can still prepare a cheese if I deny you scouting and fly with an Oracle or banshee into your base, and seeing it on the map travelling will not give you enough time to prepare anyway.
If you put the shroud high in tech tree I will just look at your base and prepare a perfect counter for whatever your tech path is till you are able to put fog of war.
I can't imagine a way of making this work, probably because it doesn't.
Getting caught in the specifics of a concept before finding agreement in the design goals of a concept sounds counterproductive.
Big J is wondering if its good for the game to have more map visibility in the early game, but less in the later game. How that is implemented (and the logic as to why it happens) is arbitrary.
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dota 2 has a better high ground mechanic, while sc2 has none (vision is not a high ground advantage mechanic)
%25 miss chance isn't hurting dota 2's numbers.
sc2 is as flat as LoL or Heroes.
if they had put in miss chance since WoL, many all-ins would have been nerfed simply through map design.
map design is also lackluster, probably because ramps don't actually matter.
if you need one thing in this game its miss chance for shooting uphill. why this was ever somehow off the table for an RTS game baffles me to no end.
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First we need to determine if giving such a vision is beneficial to the game at all. In my opinion it is better to just start a new ip with such a big change.
You seem to argue that because lowest depth of bronze league doesn't scout at all, you need to help them by changing basic principle of rts games.
A solution is to simply give them a proper tutorial introducing them to basics and importance of scouting, and leaving single units across the map to gain vision in crucial areas.
Your idea is like giving a toggle button that will auto build scv's until saturation is reached because they don't know they need more workers.
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EPT
