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SC2 could be so much more - design and balance

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-05 20:58:51
November 01 2015 23:10 GMT
#1
Polls
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Would you like to change anything to Macro Boosters?

(Vote): Complete removal
(Vote): Make them not necessary but still beneficial (nerf)
(Vote): Back to HotS values (buff)
(Vote): No change at all



Poll: Would you like Overkill Protection / Smart Firing removed?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Maybe, if we get to test it first
(Vote): No



Poll: Would you like Smart Cast removed?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes, if spellcasters are rebalanced as well
(Vote): No



Poll: Would you like High Ground Advantage mechanic introduced?

(Vote): Yes, a random miss chance based
(Vote): Yes, a damage % reducing one
(Vote): Yes, a range based one
(Vote): Yes, but something else (please explain in post)
(Vote): No



Poll: Do you agree that air styles are too strong?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: What economy model do you prefer?

(Vote): WoL/HotS
(Vote): LotV half patches
(Vote): DH
(Vote): HMH
(Vote): Other (please specify)



Poll: Remove MSC and PO for shorter build times for Gateway units?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Maybe, need testing first, but probably yes
(Vote): Maybe, need testing first, but probably no
(Vote): No



Poll: Make Force Field destructible?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: Bring back Khaydarin Amulet / High Templar energy upgrade?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Poll: Do you like idea of Mech redesign?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes, but not the Hellion/Hellbat/Widow Mine changes
(Vote): I like other idea of buffing Mech, not the one in OP
(Vote): No, but some tweaks to Siege Tank/Cyclone are necessary
(Vote): No, Mech is fine



Poll: High Templar's Feedback need a nerf?

(Vote): Yes, increase energy cost
(Vote): Yes, but other way of nerfing
(Vote): No, Feedback is fine



Poll: Do you like the Ghost redesign?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes, but not the stat/cost changes
(Vote): Yes, but not the ability/spell changes
(Vote): No, I have seen a better idea somewhere else
(Vote): No, Ghost and its Steady Targeting is fine



Poll: Do you like Viper redesign?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Only some of it
(Vote): No



Poll: Do you like Infestor's Fungal Growth immobilize redesign?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes, but with slower attack rate instead of damage
(Vote): No, Fungal Growth is fine



Poll: Do you like Ultralisk changes?

(Vote): Yes, make it faster and smaller
(Vote): Yes, but only make it faster
(Vote): Don't change the speed/size, but nerf +4 armor upgrade back to +2
(Vote): Leave Ultralisk alone



Poll: Do you agree with Lurker redesign?

(Vote): Yes, make it faster with shorter range
(Vote): Some other tweaks are required
(Vote): Lurker is fine as it is



Poll: Is harassment in general getting out of control?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Hard to tell
(Vote): No



Poll: If WoL/HotS never had Multiple Building Selection and no Macro Boosts:

(Vote): I would still play SC2 regardless
(Vote): I would still try it at some point anyway
(Vote): I would spent more time deciding if the game is worth picking up
(Vote): Probably I wouldn't try the game
(Vote): I wouldn't play the game at all



Poll: If WoL/HotS had limited unit selection instead of unlimited:

(Vote): I would play the game regardless
(Vote): I would play the game if the limit was between 20-30 for comfort
(Vote): I would play the game as long as the limit is no lower then 12
(Vote): I would most likely not play SC2
(Vote): I would refuse to play without unlimited unit selection



Poll: What do you think about the OP?

(Vote): Great thread! Agree on most things!
(Vote): Good analysis on design flaws, but bad suggestions for improvement
(Vote): Interesting read at least
(Vote): I disagree on many points in the post
(Vote): Go away, don't you dare saying anything wrong about Blizzard





Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +

As we all know, there are/were numerous balance and design issues with Starcraft II throughout its life. Broodlord/Infestor, Blink all-ins, 4 Gate PvPs, Swarm Hosts etc... there were plenty of things that could have been prevented if only Blizzard acted in time, some may say. But to me it seems like all this crap could have been stopped long before it reached ladder: with internal testing and spending some more time thinking how a things work and why they work that way. In this thread I would like to discuss design and balance, along with rules that in my opinion should be followed when intoducing new units to the game and rebalancing the old ones. Before I start, I think it is in good manner to introduce myself.
I'm a 26 year old who focused most of his life playing computer games in his spare time. Be it RTS like Age of Empires II, Warcraft series, SC:BW, Dune, Command and Conquer games. Turn based strategies like HoM&M series or Age of Wonders II. Hack 'n' Slashes like Diablo 2, Torchlight. 4x games like Galactic Civilizations II and Civilizations. Also RPGs, be it Final Fantasies, Witchers, Elder Scrolls or D&D based games.
I'm a hardcore gamer, completionist, min-maxer, powergamer, but even more then gamer, I am a designer and a modder. I used to make my own maps, campaigns, mods, classes and balance tweaks to games I play. Working with numbers, as well as analyzing and understanding the game brings me sometimes more joy then playing it. My latest finished project was Community Based Update for Galactic Civilizations II on which I worked on as a part of a small team of passionate gamers. I know a bit on how the balance works.
Having said that, I never achieved anything in SC2. I played through campaigns and only some 1v1s and 2v2s on my friends key. I wasn't Masters. Not even Diamond. I was at most Gold/Platinum when I played SC2, as I could stand my own quite alright playing vs other Platinums. I never played more then 50-60 games - so I didn't have time to improve and get to Masters to satisfy people who are going to call on my low rank. But I have been watching games and lurking on the forums for almost 5 years.
Some may say that if I don't have Master/Grandmaster in SC2 I should not try to balance the game as I lack game knowledge. I disagree. Skill should have nothing to do with balance and design, I do not believe that a Coach needs to be better then the Player. A 60 year old football coach who can hardly run can still be a great coach.
I play Brood War occasionally. Around 20-30 games every season or two on iCCup. I don't mass games. My mechanics are bad - as a Zerg I average 70-85 APM per game. And yet I could hit easily C- if I played more then 60-70 games and was serious about it. Some of you probably laugh. C- or C is a noobland and nothing to be proud of. Well... most people of my level have 150-200 APM. Even in D+ almost noone has less then 120 APM, and if they do, they're Protoss, not Zerg lol. But back to me: I'm 2-3x slower then my opponents and I still beat them, so yeah, I'm proud of myself. For my mechanical lazyness and weak Macro I make up with game sense, strategy, tactics and mind-games. I'm a much better player then most people with the same speed as me (even people in D- show more the 85 APM). Mechanics in Brood War matter but not as much as peple think. Some people overestimate mechanics - Savior was known for his low APM, yet he used to be the best Zerg around.
But that's enough about mechanics and my credentials.

LoTV is going to be released soon. Many people jump on bandwagon flaming Blizzard. Some for the right reasons, some not - I didn't come to blame or defend anyone, but to present my thoughts on game balance and design, on what went wrong and what should have been done differentely. I believe it is too late to fix some core issues without upsetting the balance so late into Beta, we don't have the time before game is released. The time in the beta was spent on simple balance patches, while the only big changes were 12 worker start and "half patches".
Starcraft 2 was and still is in need of drastic changes. We had a chance when we had gone from WoL to HotS, but apart from new units and some balance patches, core of the game had the same flaws, and some other flaws were only amplified. Some of the design choices and omissions left us with engine that cannot perform basic things that SHOULD have been in Starcraft 2 from the start, like moving shot for air and maybe some ground units, or things as dead simple as turret tracking for the Siege Tank.
In here, I want to present my thoughts on the state of the game, provide alternative solutions to common problems, or simply highlight problems for the Blizzard/Starcraft community to see.
There is a lot to talk about, and I spent couple (5-8) of weeks now (25/10 at the time of writing) writing this down. Lately I'm a busy family man, and I do not have as much time as I would like to have for this project. If there are things that have been fixed in later patches, and I ramble on about something long gone, please forgive me. I will proof-read everything once I decide it is the time to post, but there is always a chance that something will slip.


Overkill Protection and its effects on gameplay/balance with slow firing units
+ Show Spoiler +

First I would like to talk about Overkill Protection / Smart Fire (SF). SF prevents units from firing if total damage of units within range is greater then their targets HP. In other words, if you have 10 Siege Tanks within range of a damaged (10 HP) Zergling, only one of them will fire at it. If you had 20 Marines, only 2 (enough to 1 shot it) would fire. SF works only for units dealing instanteneous and ray damage like Marine, Siege Tank, Thor's and Viking's ground attack, Void Ray, Immortal etc.. It doesn't work with projectile based units. Smart Fire prevents the loss of effectiveness of units in larger groups - you can compare our SC2 10 HP Zergling being dropped on line of Siege Tanks - only one will fire at it, the rest will wait for other targets to get inside their range. In Brood War this feature didn't exist, and all the units would fire simultaneously, wasting damage, or simply, overkilling.
Logic dictates that the longer the cooldown of unit's attack is, the more it benefits from Overkill Protection. Imagine if Siege Tank had 100 damage but every 3 seconds - every wasted shot hurts. Single wasted shot is not as hurtfull if it deals 16 damage every 0.5 second.
Why overkilling is a good thing in a control oriented game like Starcraft 2? It does 3 important things for us:
- Reduces effectiveness of Deathballs by reducing damage increase per every added unit. Adding 1 more tank to a group of 5 increases damage potential of a single tank more then adding 1 tank to a group of 20. Removing Smart Fire discourages Deathballs by a small degree.
- Some shots are wasted and by that overall DPS is reduced. With less damage, units die slower, there is more time to micro and position your units during the engagement. Many complain about fights in SC2 ending in a matter of seconds - even as removal of SF would probably not increase average time of a fight by more then 10%, 6.5 seconds is still better then 6.
- Also, new unit interactions and micro can arise. Zealots/Zerglings dropped on top of sieged up Tanks or even sending single units to force overkill and protect your main army, or sending a ling to retreat a Lurker burrowed in Siege Tanks range etc.
Removal of SF is not a cure to Deathball play or game ending fights lasting less then 5 seconds, but it helps slightly with these problems.
Notice that so far I spoke almost only about Siege Tank, it is because I want to come back to some of those points later when I touch its subject, but the general idea applies to the rest of the units with Smart Fire, but it is easier to visualize it on Siege Tank model.
tl:dr
Overkill / Smart Fire makes deathballs more efficient and contribute to deathballing.


Warp Gate>Gateway, Chronoboost and bandaids as their consequence.
+ Show Spoiler +

Force Fields were hated since their introduction. Formerly to help Protoss in their early game, so Protoss wouldn't die to rush tactics, but also to split enemy army effectively halving DPS of Zerg/Terran and winning the game for Protoss. Blizzard tried some bandaids for it - increasing burrow speed, making Massive units destroy FF, and lastly, designing a unit with a sole purpose of fighting FF (the unit in question now is being redesigned as a Liberator/Tank/Lurker siege stopper which I think is silly). Lets not to forget about Photon Overcharge and lately Pylon Overcharge, which don't just help with defence - PO simply shuts down any kind of early game pressure/harassment. Implementation of a hero unit - Mothership Core (MSC) - is also a widely debated.
But why does Protoss need early game protection, if most units in the game have same or similiar stats as they had back in Brood War, where Protoss was fine or even was the primary agressor? Because Warp Gate (WG). Let me explain - Protoss production is centered around Warp Gate and that is the "standard" Protoss production rate of units required to keep up with Terran and Zerg. Someone thought that Gateway is not enough, that P needs a new fancy way of making units - and that is fine by itself. Now, Warp Gate produces units faster then Gateway and can spawn units anywhere on the map. Spawning units on the map is fine as an upgrade, but Gateway being so inferior to WG is a bad design. There is no benefit of choosing Gateway over Warp Gate. None whatsoever. Producing early game units from Gateway is inefficient - Zealots are warped 35% faster with WG, Sentries by 15% and Stalkers by 31%. It means that before switching to WG, Protoss produces his units at lower rate then other races. While WG is balanced in mid and late game, Gateway is lacking. Terran can produce much more units thanks to Reactor, while Zerg with Injects can spend a lot of extra larva on attacking units. Gateway in the meantime is still just a Gateway. Because Gateway production is slow compared to increased production of Zerg and Terran, and everything was balanced around Warp Gate build times, Protoss cannot field same amount of units as effectively as other races. Early rushes and timing attacks would kill Protoss outright because Gateway production without Chronoboost is not enough compared to what other races have. That is, in my opinion, the reason why FF is invulnerable, easy to spam and comes so early in the game.
So what about Mothership Core and Pylon/Photon Overcharge? Its existence is a result of three separete issues: one of the WG (already discussed), one of drops (which will not be discussed just yet), and the last one being the Chronoboost. Heresy! Or is it? Lets think about what Chronoboost does: it speeds up the rate of production (economy), alternate production (army), or technology. You can be very flexible with it:
- Boost Probe production, gaining an edge against players who play too safe
- Boost upgrade/gates/WGs for a powerfull timing attack/all in
- Boost Probe production while going for a less powerfull timing attack but better economy to gain lead in mid-late game
- Boost a unit production and its upgrades/tech for harassement
- Boost a random building (Nexus/Cybernetics Core/Robo) to fake your techpath/build.
And many more, but boosting one dimension (army/tech/economy) comes at a cost of falling behind in another.
Protoss without Chronoboost is mediocre when it comes to economy (no MULE, cannot convert army production for extra probes like larva), army production or tech/upgrades. Yes, attack/shield/armor upgrades can be boosted and finished faster then those of other races, but because of a possibility of CB, crucial tech has been slowed down in order nerf all-ins. Think about how Blink and WG research time was increased as a result of strong cheese play. But, both of those (or at least WG) are necessary for Protoss just to not fall behind and stay in game if playing standard. Both are painfully slow to research if you're not all-inning. But can still hit quickly if you CB them, which led in the past to exploiting it in the Blink all-in era. This is why Protoss cannot be balanced as long as there is Chronoboost - standard play can be very economical but at the same time is too slow to keep up with the enemy army and tech, resulting in P having to rely on FF, MSC and its PO for defence in the early game. Yet in a same way harass and all-in/cheese is way too strong if it is boosted. There is no middle ground in Protoss strategy. And that my dear is exactly why so many people don't like to play agains Protoss - because with Chronoboost, there are many more timings to which you have to adapt in order not to lose vs Protoss, making their cheese/all-ins stronger, but not helping Protoss as much while playing standard. And in order to give Protoss some defensive advantage, MSC with Photon Overcharge was introduced.
tl:dr
Protoss being gimmicky is a consequence of Chronoboost - either cheese is too strong, or standard play too weak, as balancing between the two is next to impossible. P needs Force Field and a hero unit (Mothership Core) with Pylon cannons to play standard game and not to die when if not cheesing. Gateway producing units at much lower rate then Warp Gate is also a big contributor to this (or rather, Larva Inject, Reactors and Techlab switching make Gateway production much worse in comparison).
With Chronoboost the PvP looks like safe>>>aggressive>>>greedy>>>safe, without it will be more like safe>>aggressive>>greedy>>safe, which would reduce a bit the coinflip nature of PvP, even if just a little bit.



Bringing micro to Force Field
+ Show Spoiler +

Lets get back to the Force Field for a moment. They are bandaid, most will agree, but they don't have to be this way. I advice against removing Force Fields, but champion for their redesign. I've seen those threads many times, someone bringing up same complaint now and again - Force Fields (FF) preventing micro on opponents side, or rather micro being one dimensional. And I fully agree with it - you cannot micro agains FF. You can either go back home because you're not getting up that ramp, or you can retreat your units so that you can take the engagement with the Protoss in a position where you have enough room to manouver around FF with the rest of your units - simply flank from different directions... which takes a lot more APM and skill then simply throwing a couple of FF on the ground in a neat line.
Are the Force Fields OP? That is not what interests me and I have no desire to find out. I'm more interested in how to make it so that the opponent can micro against it without using a gimmick like Ravager bile.
- Give Force Field 3 armor, 80 HP (for example) and change it to a neutral unit (destructible) when spawned. It has to be targeted manually (so your units will do nothing unless ordered to attack) so there is some basic micro involved, has to have enough armor to make it viable against early cheese/rush, but HP low enough to be disposed of relatively quickly with higher tiered units. Its armor should not be classified as light, nor armored, nor building, so no bonus damage is applied to it, and all units big and small, anti-light and anti-armored destroy it equally fast, or equally slow. Armor and HP values are subject to balance ofc.
- You could also allow Sentries to target friendly Force Field with their normal attack and "heal" it by attacking it. You can even make it so that FF have low HP, a relatively high armor (2-3), and Sentries "heal" is necessary to keep FF up. With low amount of HP (30-50) it could be destroyed easily and Protoss will have to target different FFs to prevent the enemy from getting up that wide ramp on a silly map.
In my opinion it gives some opportunity to micro against the FF without making it terribly bad and easy to break through. Also second suggestion offers some counter micro for the Protoss player as well. It gives players some more degree of control, some more micro opportunity, while keeping FFs job intact. It also allows a band-aid of Ravager a chance to be redesigned as a more "zergy" unit, to fill some other role in Zerg arsenal. A Zerg unit with long range and MOBA like skill shots just doesn't fly with me, but that is my personal opinion.
If this Force Field is not enough for the Protoss to protect themselves against super early rush openings, maybe Protoss should consider altering their openings a little? Or simply some of the build times should be slighly altered to help them? Or even slight buff to Gateway units? Anything is possible, but i firmly believe with a bit of creativity Force Fields won't be hated so much, if their design is altered in a good way, allowing counterplay and micro on both sides.
tl:dr
Force Field prevents equal micro opportunisties, and requires much more APM/skill on the opponent side to play against it. Making it vulnerable could create interesting interactions while still keeping it as a good defensive spell.


"Press hotkey not to die" abilities
+ Show Spoiler +

While we are discussing Force Field, I want to address something else that comes out from Sentry. Guardian Shield (GS). In no way an ability with "fire and forget" mechanic is good for a game like Starcraft. Even Blizzard realized it when they changed Immortals shield ability to auto-cast. Guardian Shield though is still a "click to buff", a no-brainer ability. It's so easy to use it that a monkey could do it. It's one of those abilities that are being turn on by default without thinking. So here's my proposition, a very simple one.
Guardian Shield
- Cast on the ground where the Sentry is located, or with a small (1-2) range cast, does not follow the Sentry
- Benefits only ground units (to prevent enemy air units from flying in)
- Benefits enemy units as well (to make it less zero thinking cast)
- Radius can be lowered from 4 to 3 to make each GS more valuable or the energy cost could go up to 100
This way there is at least a minimum of thinking required when using GS because enemy can force you out of position and gain buffs. It also can fail miserably vs melee units unless you block them from getting inside: more micro involved for both players as Protoss tries to deny any melee units the bonus armor and other player actively tries to get his melee inside the GS.
But why nerf Sentries abilities, if Sentry is being used less anyway? What actually prevents players from building Sentries early in the game is their really high gas cost. I believe their cost and maybe stats should be lowered. For example, 50 mineral and 50 gas cost, but a bit lower speed (2.25->2), shields and health (both 40->30).
Another ability that works exactly like Guardian Shield is Void Rays Prismatic Alignment. Remember how Void Ray had to charge up before, with different charge levels, each increasing Void Ray's damage by small amount? Boy it was interesting to watch Marine vs Void Ray micro. It was a much better design - there was also some degree of decision making involved, on how do I charge, on a builiding or workers? When to engage, and when to wait for a better opportunity. Void Rays were more interesting, now you just press the button. This means that the only decision making boils down to "should I used the power up, or not yet in case he is only baiting the Prismatic Alignment?". Maybe Void Rays had some balance problems, but small changes with numbers would be sufficient. For example:
- Void Ray range down to 5 (so it gives Marines better chance to actually do something), with maybe a 100/100 (or even 125/125) +1 range upgrade in Cybernetics Core.
- cost and supply nerfs reverted
- 3 stages of charge:
1. 6 (+4 vs armored)
2. 7 (+6 vs armored)
3. 8 (+8 vs armored)
- each charge up lasts for 3-4 seconds, if Void Ray does not attack anything within that period, it loses one charge
- everything else about the ability remains the same.
- numbers are subject to balance of course
tl:dr
Guardian Shield is the same kind of a brain-fart ability like previous iteration of Immortal Shield (or Barrier, or however it was called). Same can be said about the Void Ray, which used to be interesting to watch, and forced some micro on both sides, and its problem was maybe only with the numbers like range, damage etc.. "Press X to benefit" spells should have no place in Starcraft 2, they could be altered to involve at least a minimum of decisionmaking or micro.


More band-aids and super long tooltips that will have to be implemented (sarcasm)
+ Show Spoiler +

Warp Gate warping time and units taking more damage when warped in. Blizzard wanted to balance defensive and offensive warpins, and came up with a solution which is not elegant and it only gives new players another set of numbers that they have to remember. Different warp-in times for Pylons out in the open, different for Warp Prism and different for Pylons powered by Nexus/Warp Gate is bad. How are you going to notify a completely new player to this mechanic? Send him to a website? All the information to understand the game should be in the game. And tooltips which take half the screen prove only that you have messed up somewhere.
I have seen this sort of tweak on the forum before and I thought of it myself as well. Why not just make it, so the bigger the distance from the Nexus (completed of being built), the longer it takes to warp-in units. There can even be a small tooltip just by the cursor that says how long it will take to warp-in. There could be a 6-10 range around Nexus that warp-in units in fixed time (1-2 seconds), and after that the time increases with range away of that radius. Simple, elegant solution. With it, there is no need to have different times for Warp Prisms and Pylons. It is easy to understand for newcomers.
tl:dr
New players should not be bombarded with information that is there because someone wanted to complicate things. Stuff should be easy to remember and understand, instead of having players resort to googling for anwsers. If there is a simple solution to a problem, use it, but don't overcomplicate things.


Protoss anti-drop defense
+ Show Spoiler +

How can Protoss defend against the drops? The most common defense is using Photon Overcharge/Pylon, which requires a hero-like unit in the game. It could be moved to the Nexus, or some more spammable unit like Oracle/Sentry, but in my opinion a "click to prevent harass and early game rush" ability is a bad design. If one of the races in the game needs such a band-aid, there is something wrong with this race's production if it cannot keep up with others - which I believe I covered enough of when talking about the Gateway/Warp Gate. But even then, how can you defend against the drop if your units are out in the field fighting the enemy on the frontlines? Photon Cannons.
But they are expensive, you need at least 2 to cover your mineral line, and they don't protect you from the drops at all. In Brood War, a Marine is 2 shotted by a Cannon - but in SC2 it takes 3 shots to kill a Marine. Another thing is, Marauder with its +armored damage demolishes cannons with ease, and it is able to tank considerable amout of damage. Cannons are not as good at protecting as they are in Brood War - Hydralisks have been replaced with Roaches, Marines got Marauder support etc. Cannons are not able to dish out the damage they need to protect the base. They are more tanky, yes - they have extra 50 shield and 50 health, but its the damage that is the problem - Cannon cannot kill a unit that is being healed with a Medivac.
Yet at the same time Cannon cannot be buffed in damage without increasing its cost, or reducing its total HP. Increasing the cost will make FFE much harder to pull off, while reduction of HP will make it vulnerable and useless against bigger groups of units. If I could rebalance the Cannon, I would decrease its total HP from 300 to 250, but increase damage from 20 to 23-25. That is more offtopic, because either way Cannon is not sufficient to protect your base.
What unit can be warped-in, and can single handedly deny, or at least protect the mineral line untill reinforcements arrive? High Templar that is. But HT does not have enough energy to cast the Storm, right? Well, what about if we bring back Khaydarin Amulet, after all, offensive warp-ins have been severely nerfed with the warp-in time.
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade would help Protoss immensily with drop defense. Because of long warp-in time, High Templars won't be used as much for harassment anyway. There is no reason for HT not to have an energy upgrade like other spellcasters.
tl:dr
Bring back Khaydarin Amulet for High Templar - since it cannot be used offensively or in harassment as it is so easy to pick it off when it is warping-in, the main reason why it was removed in a first place, but it will help Protoss defend the drops and hopefully we will take one step towards removing some of the band-aids that just don't belong in the game.


Smart Cast and spellcaster balance
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Smart Cast (SC) is in my opinion bad for the game, but please listen to what I have to say about it before making any judgements. Some may say we should not use archaic UI, that Smart Cast is a step into right direction - to the future. But there are also steps backwards that are preventing Starcraft 2 from reaching greatness:
- Because of how easy it is to cast spells and abilities, spells are easy to use and their potential increases with each additional spellcaster. Without SC every additional spellcaster gives you less value for money, as every additional unit requires more and more APM and it becomes excessively harder and harder to use its abilities with each extra unit. SC causes casters to be easily massable - Raven clouds, mass Infestor, you name it, those were the cause of Smart Cast and great scaling of casters, without the drawbacks like lack of APM to control them.
- SC necessitates the nerf of abilities or buffs to core units. Think how Psionic Storm went from 112 damage in Brood War to 80 in SC2. How Fugal Growth lost range and later became projectile, how EMP drains 100 shield instead of compete depletion, how Marine got so much extra health since Brood War to make bio viable vs all compositions, and how radius of EMP and Storm has also decreased. But it doesn't end on AoE abilities - single target spells are equally easy to abuse: Snipe has gone from 45 damage to 25+25 vs Psionic, Neural Parasite gone from 9 to 7 range. All of the abilities that deal damage or immobilize/disable got nerfed pretty hard. Not only because of the pathing/unit clumping - otherwise single target spells would be unchanged. Its the ease of casting that magnifies the problem of clumping, or even is the problem itself.
Whithout SC you have to find your High Templar, click on it, press the hotkey and move mouse back where you want to cast Psionic Storm. If you want to cast another storm but your HT depleted his energy, you have to select another HT, see if he has enough energy, if not, find next one, if yes, move mouse back and cast a new Storm. With SC you just select a group of units press the hotkey and click like a madman where you want your Storms. Without SC a pro can dish out at most 3, maybe 4 Storms per second. An amateur probably 1 or 2. With SC both can throw even 10-15 Storms or more per second (depends only on how fast you can click and how much energy is stored). Skill floor rises, but skill ceiling drastically decreases. A Plat/Diamond (maybe even Gold) player can throw Storms/Fungals/EMPs in same way and with almost the same effectiveness as a pro. And when a casual player can do same job "microing" spellcasters just like a pro, you end up with..
No wow factor. "If I can do almost the same thing as a pro, I'm not going to care" mentality. It doesn't matter that a pro can macro at the same time, or send a Dropship and unload it somewhere in opponents base, because those actions are not as clearly visible to the viewer. What's worse a Master player can do very similiar job to a pro when it comes to microing units, and also shift que a Dropship to attack a base before a fight. And while it is true that pros will do it a bit better, is not something to be excited about because the gap between a pros and an amateur execution is not big enough. A spectactor won't see how good a macro of a player is when there is a battle going on, and people don't care about things they don't see. People are also less concerned with pure mechanics - you don't hear teenagers screaming when a pro Zerg keeps energy on his Queens below 25 throughout the game, the teenagers scream when they see sick micro. And I'm not talking about ability/spell spam, which can be done by high Diamond players with same ease as what pros do it, but about things like splitting units, and shifting unit positions throughout the engagement. Unfortunately, because the fights are over in seconds and it's better to simply let units do their job without disturbing them, all the spectactor see is abilities being thrown and units dying in seconds without positional micro involved. Simply put, Marine vs Baneling micro is interesting to watch because it involved micro that is harder to perform then ability spam. It could be even more entertaining if it lasted a bit longer then 2 seconds, but that's different issue.
Second issue is that weak but massable spells cause abilities to become less impactful. Less exciting to watch. There's less interest. And it's bad viewer experience. Units barely take damage from a single spell, so spells are less impactful. Because of the easy casting, multiple spells being cast are less spectacular because even lower level players can do that. To get the point across, lets bring some analogical example. If in basketball the ring was twice the size, we would get much more points, but scoring an individual point would be so much less exciting to watch.
The game has been balance around Smart Cast since WoL, so rapidly cutting it out would shake up the balance quite a bit. Probably it's not worth doing it so far into the development. But I sincererly hope that if Blizzard makes another Starcraft or Warcraft game, it will be without Smart Casting, as it is bad for everyone. Pros don't have as much to differenate themselves from amateurs, and spectactors get less fun from watching. Both those things are not good for the games future.
tl:dr
Smart Cast means spells need to be weaker, and weaker spells are not exciting to watch or play with. Smart Cast means a Master player can be as good as a pro when it comes to caster micro, which further adds to "meh, if I can do it like a pro, then pro are not that great".


Balancing with Infestor spell examples and redesigning a spell that prevents micro
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Infestor as a whole is quite underperforming. While we most definetely don't want the revival of Broodlord/Infestor, fact is Infestor could use some rebalancing and redesigning.
Fungal Growth seems hard to balance out on the first glance. On one hand, immobilizing effect is deadly, but it is hard to get a good shot with the projectile. The ability therefore becomes "hit or miss", meaning that having only 1 Infestor is gambling and you need more of them to ensure that you use Fungal Growth (FG) effectively, or rather at all. In my humble opinion, casters should be on the battlefield as support units - High Templar is never massed, and you only need a few for them to be effective. Even a single HT can do its job fine, storming units or feedbacking Dropships. You cannot say the same about the Infestor. You need a number of them to be effective, unless you wait for the opponent to make a mistake and not look at his army sitting on creep for longer then 2 seconds. Neural Parasite on the other hand is totaly worthless as its range prevents it from being useful. Infected Terran is weak without armor and attack bonuses.

FG prevents micro from the opponent, which is bad in a game that focuses so much on control/micro. It is frustrating to play against. If it lands, it becomes one of the scariest abilities in the game. Imagine a Deathball of units being massacred by spread out Lurkers and Banelings without a way of escaping. Yeah, in right circumstance it is very powerful. Still, to me, any ability/spell that removes micro without good reason is bad for the game, especially since Smart Cast makes it so easy to carpet bomb units with spells. Therefore, I believe a much better design for Fungal Growth is to not immobilize, but to slow down units affected by it by 50% just like Concussive Shells. In case of units with speed upgrades, any unit would just revert its movement speed back to unupgraded kind, or we can just slap 50% movement reduction onto all and be equal. To balance it out, the projectile speed could be increased by 75-150% and duration changed to 8-12 seconds. The projectile should also follow the unit it has been cast on, or we can just go without the projectile altogether and revert it to how it used to be, an instant effect spell. With such changes, even a single Infestor has a bigger chance of getting his FG on his target. At the same time, enemy can still split/micro his affected units, only not as effectively because of the of the slow effect. While projectile should be fast, range of the FG should not be bigger then 9 or 10, with 9 being a good starting point to see if range can stay or should be increased or decreased.
On another note, while we stay with Fungal Growth, I want to say that having a cheap spell (75) dealing small amounts of damage over relatively short period is bad because it encourages players to mass a certain caster. Remember when Fungal was instantenous, you locked down a group of marines and then casted another Fungal to kill them, without a chance for the Terran to micro against it? Yeah, exactly. If Fungal did more damage, but over a longer period, massing of Infestors would not be as efficient. But then again FG would have to have a higher energy cost to balance extra damage and duration, no? And if we did that, wouldn't we end up with some warped version of a Brood War Plague? Yes, we would.
Plague is a good spell actually, much better designed then FG. While it deals 300 damage over 25 seconds (ingame seconds), it doesn't kill the unit, leaving it with 1 hp instead. That made the Plague worthless to cast multiple times, contrary to Fungal Growth. In SC bio can be healed, mech repaired, zerg can regenerate, while Protoss at least doesn't suffer shield damage. Units are not immobilized, which means you can save them if you micro correctly and retreat. In that regard, Plague is a superior design. So how can we take good things about it, and mix it into Fungal Growth? Lets recap with previous changes, and keep everything in one place. Reworked Fungal Growth:
- Range up to 9.
- Much faster projectile (+75-150%) or the projectile follows targeted unit (prefferably both).
- Slow effect instead of immobilize effect.
- Slight radius increase (+10-25%)
- Duration increased to 8-12 seconds.
- Damage over 8-12 seconds (real time seconds), increased to 60-90 or 40-60 (7.5 or 5 damage per second) but
- Fungal Growth doesn't kill the target, leaving it with 1 hp.
- Units with 1 hp hit with another Fungal Growth cast on them can either die or FG can have no effect, subject to balance.
- Possibly FG needing and upgrade before its usable, or an upgrade for FG to deal its damage in the first place.
With such set of effects FG will be used a lot more as a "poke and cast on enemy deathball if you can", but should still get a lot of screen time on the battlefield. Opponent is granted an option to micro with the Fungal Growth effect on, and skill is not stupidly underpowered or overpowered, which is better for everyone. Balance can be achieved tweaking last 4 points, without playing with range/speed of projectile which I think should be long/fast accrodingly.
On the side note, duration of engagements could be increased by changing Fungal Growth from dealing damage to slowing attack speed, with similiar rules to what Ensnare done in Brood War. I believe longer engagements are better and more interesting to watch then putting more and more high or "terrible, terrible" damage abilities into the game so everything dies within seconds, but this might be too much of a change for Blizzard, plus it is too similiar to Ensnare, and we all now Blizzard is very recluctant when introducing old stuff into the game. Which is a shame, because Ensnare could be much easier to balance and make for better ability to watch it on streams and play against, as it increases duration of battles and isn't so overpowered by making units completely immobile.
tl:dr
Fungal Growth is a pain to balance because of the immobilizing effect. Changing it to do something else (like slow effect) makes it a lot easier, also a couple of changes to the way Fungal hits the target makes even single Infestor strong, and reduces effectivenes of massed Infestor vs a couple of them.
Also, cheap spells that cause damage are not good because they encourage masses of spellcasters, which are uninteresting to watch compared to normal unit interactions and movement.
Bonus: Less buffing and damaging abilities, more nerfing "status effects" is a better philosophy because it prolongs engagements.

Neural Parasite has gone from 9 range to 7 range, or in other words, from useful to useless. What if Blizzard could try range 8 for this spell? It's still beta, so we could try it for at least a week or two, no? If it is too strong, we could tweak it in some other way then nerfing range. Simple thing like increasing energy cost to 125 or even 150 could balance them out. Yes, making such a big energy cost can cause turtling with Infestors in order to save up energy and to mass NP enemy army with some timing push (I don't see it, but everything is possible in SC2 meta lol [sarcasm]), but keep NP on 7 range and you will almost never see it. Range 8 and increased energy cost seems like a good tweak to otherwise unused ability. In the unlikely even that Neural Parasite is still bad on 8 range, maybe casting while burrowed should be implemented. There are so many ways of nerfing and buffing skills, not only range/radius/damage - even 7.5-8 range but cast while burrowed would help to get more airtime for this interesting ability. First time I saw a player (don't remember who, maybe Fruitdealer, dunno) NP terran ghost and then casting EMP on the rest of the Ghosts to prevent them from sniping Broodlords, I thought "wow, this is cool". I think that was back when Infestor Broodlord with spores and slow pushing wasn't invented yet, and the start of the show was the Neural Parasite. It was exciting to watch, will Ghosts snipe/EMP Infestors, or will the Infestor get the first shot of his Neural Parasited Ghost? Unfortunately, NP was cut from 9 to 7 range somewhere after that game.
And this is why I don't like Blizzards approach, they either overbuff or overnerf things. They don't reduce range by 1 to see if then need to adjust it further, but by 2 or they don't increase energy cost, but instead make ability deal half its original damage etc.
tl:dr
Dear Blizzard, it would be great if you nerfed OP stuff in time, but gradually introducing elegant solutions, and not after months of waiting but slapping interesting spell or unit into oblivion with nerfs.

Infected Terran... I think it's good if they are not used much, and I would not change them in any drastic way. Infected Terrans with upgrades were suffering from same design flaw as Swarm Hosts - free units, which are never good for the game. Free units have to be weak by definition - they do not cost anything, so they have to be weaker then units with a cost. That creates the "useless in low numbers, but strong in critical number" playstyle that we have also seen during the Swarm Host era. Free units are either useless, or cause turltling if they are not.
Infestor could get some new ability - personally I would love to see the return of Infest Command Center, which would spawn larva at half or full rate of a Hatchery, but without the option of the Inject, if it stays in the game, and maybe the option to build the Infested Terrans there for low cost.
Or simply replace it with Ensnare or Parasite of Brood War Queen, if there are no changes to Fungal Growth. Parasite, while not contributing much to army vs army fight, is a really cool idea that softly counters units by revealing their location, removing them from the main army or causing them to be used in suicidal attacks to get rid of the "map hacking" unit(s).


Air units superiority and forced "sky" gameplay
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Next thing I want to discuss is the focus on air units and making it possible for "skytoss" or anything "sky" to exist in the first place. Lets compare air units of Brood War for each race:
Protoss:
- Corsair: AoE AtA, some ground utility with an upgrade (Disruptor Web)
- Scout: weak AtG, strong AtA
- Arbiter: Caster/Support
- Carrier: Capital ship
Zerg:
- Mutalisk: all rounder
- Devourer: designated tank/AtA superiority battleship
- Guardian: slow siege unit
- Scourge: suicidal AtA unit
Terran:
- Science Vessel: support unit/caster
- Wraith: all rounder, weaker then Mutalisk, makes up for it with cloak
- Valkyrie: AoE AtA
- Battle Cruiser: Capital ship
As you can see, each race has sort of an all rounder (Muta, Wraith, Scout), but other then that there are notable differences. Zerg has the only siege and suicidal unit (Guardian and Scourge) and Terran/Protoss have the only Capital ships. Both Capital ships funcion differently: Battle Cruiser is a tank with powerfull ability, while Carrier is a more of a "stay in the back" unit.
Zerg has superior all rounder (Mutalisk), but both T and P have great AoE AtA (Valkyrie, Corsair) that deal efficiently with it. Both of those AoE AtA are vulnerable to Scourge, until they reach critical mass of 5-7. Terran and Protoss have the only spell flying support, with Arbiters being much rarer and not massable as opposed to Science Vessels.
Zerg can only maintain air superiority if combination of Mutalisks and Scourge cloning is used, because Devourers come way to late to be of any use (unless late game PvZ happens). Scourges are strong but need to be microed and split before they can pose a threat to a pack of T and P AoE units. If the game lasts long enough, Devourers can fight back and regain air dominance. By then Terran and Protoss can switch to an all out Capital ship production, with Terran Capital ship in need of support to fight against mass Scourge, and Protoss Carrier in need of detection against cloaked Wraith attacks.
The only forms of flying harassement units are Mutalisk and Wraith, and while Mutalisk beats Wraith in effectiveness, Wraith has cloak which can at least even up the fight and forces micro on both sides.
Simply put, there is a good degree of diversity between units, and every race feels unique having access to different types of air units.
The only harass units in the game are:
- Mutalisks (they come late and are relatively easily repelled if scouted)
- Wraith (come early but can be very easily repelled if scouted)
- Corsair (only vZ, and can be repelled with ease if scouted)
All of those units are still easy to defend against even if you don't prepare specifically for them, with the exception of Mutalisk which can end the game if not scouted. Wraith and Corsair might put you in disadvantage, and Corsair need the support of other units (DT, Reaver) to do game ending damage.

Now lets see what units each race has in SC2:LotV
Protoss:
- Pheonix: AtA, counters light, some utility with the pick-up ability, can be a harass unit
- Void Ray: AtA, AtG, counters armored, formerly counters massive, formerly used only as a harass unit
- Oracle: Mostly used as a harass unit, can help with detection as a Support/Caster
- Tempest: Siege unit
- Carrier: Capital ship
- Mothership Core/Mothership: Hero unit / band-aid / Capital ship
Zerg:
- Mutalisk: All rounder
- Corruptior: designated tank, AtA, counters massive
- Broodlord: Siege unit
- Viper: Support/Caster
Terran:
- Viking: Mainly AtA, counters armored, can be used as a harass vs Z
- Banshee: AtG, mainly used as a harass unit, can be a part of certain compositions, ability to cloak
- Raven: Support/Caster
- Battle Cruiser: Capital ship
- Liberator: Siege unit, AoE AtA vs light
My point is, races become less distinctive and more rounded. Everyone has a siege unit (Liberator, Tempest, Broodlord), designated AtA (Corruptor, Pheonix/Void Ray, Viking) and a caster/support (Viper, Raven and Oracle/Mothership/MSC). There is a total of 4 Protoss units that can be used for harass, 2 for Terran and 1 for Zerg. Everyone has some sort of vs armored unit (Viking/Void Ray, Corruptor to some extent). At the same time AoE have almost dissapeared until LotVs introduction of a Liberator (Valkyrie with AtG) and melee AtA in nowhere to be seen (poor Scourge).
Air units are stronger, easier to mass and complement each other more then ever. Before, only Mutalisks could stand their own against Protoss and Zerg ground based anti-air, now Banshees, Void Rays, Liberators and of course Mutalisks are all at least somehow efficient vs ground unit compositions, not only as harass/cheese builds.
Total of air units increased from 12 to 15, but air units are much better at their roles then they were before - Guardian was much weaker and fragile then Broodlord, Valkyrie is a Liberator without ground mode, Viking and Banshee is a Wraith split into 2 units, each stronger at their job, Corruptor comes earlier then Devourer making it much more common, Mothership is an improved Arbiter (albeit Recall to Nexus instead to Mothership doesn't feel so good). Every air unit is used now and again (maybe Tempest not as much, but whatever). In Brood War Scout and Devourer were not seen very often, so the total number of air units probably looks more like 10 vs 14/15, which is a 40-50% increase. Don't get me wrong, having a good variety is good for the game (if units don't overlap), but because there is so many of them, races lose their weaknesses and sometimes it may feel like ground units act as a support to air.
Air units should be less effective then ground units. A 100 minerals 100 gas air unit should always lose to a 100 minerals 100 gas ground unit. It should be quite even only vs 75/50 or 75/75 in one on one fight. The reason for this is air units basic design and feature: they ignore terrain and are able to move freely around the map. This increase in mobility compared to ground units necessitates them being less cost/supply efficient then ground troops. Without it, there would be no point in producing any ground army, because why would you, if you can make go to air and ignore wall off and simply march/fly into opponents base. So yes, air needs to be weaker then ground. Mobility is a big balancing tool that is underused or largely ignored in Starcraft 2.
Air vs Air battles are boring to watch. It is hard to distinquish which player has the advantage, positioning is not important, micro is practically invisible to the viewers, and its almost impossible to disengage. It is a chaotic mess and that shouldn't have place in a game like Starcraft, or at least not too often. Air vs Ground might be interesting if there is micro involved on both sides, But not ability micro, which I already covered when talking about Smart Cast. We need movement micro, but for that the moving shot is needed, something that hasn't been implemented very well in SC2, because the main and defining feature of all air units, moving-shot, has been, oops, forgot to be coded into the game engine. Seriously, I cannot phatom how some of the basic things that defined what made Brood War great have been just... well... wasted? I hope that in the future, when Blizzard or any other AAA developer makes another RTS, they won't make the air units as bland and OP as in Starcraft 2 games.
The reason I bring this up is because Blizzard's approach to put more and more air units into the game scares me. It makes me worry about the future of Starcraft 3 and Warcraft 4. End game compositions consisting of Broodlord+support, Liberator+support or even mass Carrier are alright, but not if it's the one and only, the ultimate way of playing the game.
tl:dr
Not every game should end with someone going air, such things should only happen in specific matchups or only in 1/10 games, but no more. Ground based armies are infinately more fun to watch.
Air units should be less supply and cost efficient then ground units, by as much as 50%, and no less then 20%. Otherwise everyone gonna transition into air anyway.
For more information about moving shot, I direct you to this article by LaLuSh: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/433944-depth-of-micro


Oracle, Banshee, Hellion/Hellbat, Widow Mine, Tank Drop, Nydus Worm etc. - harass gone wild
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Banshee deals almost 19.2 DPS to workers, Oracle 21.6. 3 Hellions 1 shot workers, same as one Widow Mine. There is so many things that are broken in this game and I do not know why has nobody brought this up before, or at least I haven't seen it in the threads I read. Why do you think Banshee and Oracle has so much DPS to be able to kill a worker every 2 seconds? Why Hellions are able to roast 10 workers with a single shot? The reasons are simple - and one of it is worker mining efficiency. Now I'm not talking about HMH or DH or worker pairing. I'm talking about how much minerals/gas can a worker shift on its single trip.
Why is it relevant, you may ask. Lets think about it for a second: a single worker shifts 4 minerals. Because Blizzard wanted good looking mining and implemented worker pairing, and worker AI was improved from previous game, mining efficiency was too big. The income was out of control because a base saturated with 16 workers yield much more minerals in Starcraft 2 with improved worker movement/AI then in Brood War. This was problematic because it altered all unit and tech interactions and Blizzard was not prepared to work from scratch. And who can blame them, units were mostly balanced in Brood War, there was no need to start from zero when designing the Marine, Siege Tank or Gateway build times. The stats were filled in, bulk of balance work was done for them already. So instead of making AI less efficient in mining, or altering how long workers mine a patch, they reduced how much a worker yields per trip. Seems like simple and sensible thing to do, does the job, income can be easily altered, everyones happy. Yet, that same exact change had a profound effect on worker killing and harassment effectiveness.
No longer killing a single worker cuts 8 mineral per trip per worker, now you need to kill 2 workers to achieve same effect of reducing your oponents income. As we know, and what has been further investigated by hicctl in his thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/495035-overlooked-facts-of-harassment), the more workers you kill, the bigger effect it has on your opponents economy. So one would think, if individual worker mines less then it was in Brood War (4 down from 8), then strenght of harassment from Brood War is inadequate to deal sufficient amount of damage to opponent economy to justify investement in tech/unit/timing. Or in simple words, because now you need to kill almost twice as many workers to reduce enemy income by same amount, harass units need to be stronger to compensate for the cuts to your own economy when you decide to go for an agressive opening instead of a greedy one. But there are two other reasons why Oracle is killing worker in 2 seconds.
Banshee having such a high DPS is most likely a result of this exact reasoning (increased worker to income ratio), but high DPS could also be attributed to early game defense. Banshee, which is supposed to be a form of Wraith replacement, needs not only to score kills, but also avoid newly introduced units and techs that are encountered in almost every game. Even when if Banshee build is not scouted, there is a big chance of some kind of defence waiting for it anyway. Marines being reactored increases their production rate by a big margin with a relatively low investement, also bio is a very common style which provides good AtA. Queen provides a basic AtA for the Zerg and at least one is protecting each base. Banshee simply had to be a better unit in order to deal any kind of economical damage. If Wraith with its Brood War stats was in the game instead of the Banshee, Wraith openings would simply fail because some base defense is almost always there by default. The only way for Wraith to be viable could be in TvZ matchup, where Wraith can not only try to score some Drone kills (1-3, probably no more then that), but most of the time only some Overlord kills and scout denial as a result. So instead of a Wraith we ended up with high range, high AtG damage dealer which can cloak. And it would be fine if we didn't need to make the AtG damage so big to make the unit playable.
Another contributor is lack of a good moving shot. Wraith has terrible stats but it is still a good unit because it can be microed against Hydralisks. Its ground attack is very weak, but if it was any stronger, the unit would be broken and OP. Could make much a better core unit and be included in more compositions, if and, only if it was not microable as it is but with stronger AtG. And same rule applies to the Banshee and Oracle as well: If there was even a chance to micro units better (again, moving shot), range of those units along with their DPS could go down a bit, making it still good in harassment role without the "terrible terrible damage" which causes those units to obliterate workers in seconds. They would be even more worthless as a part of an army, but then again if there only were some late game upgrades for those units (simple example: Banshee cloak being constant), that would not be the case. All within reason ofcourse. And again I have to stress "late game" upgrades, if any, and not for cheap.

Mining difference, bigger chance to meet opposition and less microability of air units makes it somehow necessary to increase harass unit's effectivness, otherwise who would open with an aggressive build, if it can very easily fail and it is hard to perform, when if you choose less aggressive opening you end up with much bigger army/economy in the mid-game. Banshee could be made less strong vs ground, but given an air attack, making it still good as a harass opening vZ. It would simply be like a Wraith with better ground attack to account for the Queen.
I got a bit distracted, so I'll get back to the point I wanted to make: harass units may have high DPS because Blizzard thinks that harass units will be put against the Queen or MSC or a pack of Marines - and often they are in the lower leaques. But better playes (Silver+? Gold+?) know when to engage and when to avoid taking damage, which is what a harass unit job is by definition - kill as many workers as you can, avoid taking hits and get out. So when there is an Oracle, or a Banshee, or a flying Tank, or Hellions that are designed with DPS big enough to kill enough workers when a Queen or Photon/Pylon Overcharge damages them, the problem arises, because if you rush those units and skimp on economy(Chronoboost, Techlab/Reactor switching, cutting workers etc), there simply might not be enough, if any, defense at all in time to prevent you from killing half of the workers that you opponent has in total. Some may not build an extra Queen so early and die. Some may go for a Mech build and die without Marines, or make too many Marauders to protect themselves from some other stupid cheese/all-in like Adept attacks and get killed by air units. Some may have their Stalkers somewhere else then mineral line for a split second. Because even if you have the correct units to counter such cheese, if your units are out of position you will lose a lot before you move your forces back, and the stupidly high DPS vs workers is to blame for it.
tl:dr
Blizzards mistake was trying to change the formula: workers mining at different rate, units that everyone has to build (Queen, MSC), that are used as base defense, and increasing damage vs workers in so many places to counteract that. It just doesn't work very well as a whole, and there are always things that are going to be unbalanced until the "default" base defense is removed from the game, or until killing a single worker matters more, but killing a whole bunch of them relies more on your skill and not on build order win.


High Ground Advantage, positional play and and map making.
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High Ground Advantage (HGA) should be in this game, because it creates much better system to have defenders advantage in the game. Without it we have Queens that have been buffed over the years (range etc), or MSC and its "click to kill cheese and aggression" button. There are band-aids to help players defend their bases against easy to perform rush builds. I believe that HGA should be in the game. Now, some people say that RNG (random number generator) should not have a place in Starcraft 2, and I have seen other propositions to implement it. I'll go through the 2 most common that I have seen on the forums, before I
Units shooting uphill have lower damage: Now this one could work in a very good way, or disastrous one, because of the high armour values on some units, and low damage values on others. It all depends when what is calculated. Lets say, we have a Marine shooting a Roach with upgrades, 2 armor total. Lets say our Marine has only 6 damage per shot, and the penalty for shooting uphill is 33% (to make it rounded for the sake of the argument). Our Marine does now only 4 damage per shot, and only 2 damage per shot to our Roach. So now our Marine does only 2/6 or 33% of its original damage, making defenders advantage very big. If, on the other hand, we could make it so the armor is counted first, our Marine would deal 4 damage (6 - 2 armor), and the reduction of 33% could kick in after that, reducing it to 3 (4 * 66%=3.666666..=3 rounded down). Second example is much better, because it doesn't punish low damage units and is more or less equal to all kinds of units.
Units shooting downhill have increased damage: While is has the same principle as the one above, it magnifies the problem of engagements ending in few seconds, which gives less room for players to show off their micro, and frustrates newbies who send their army on a-move somewhere and didn't look for 3 seconds, loosing their entire army, It's simply bad.
Range reduced shooting uphill or range increased shooting downhill: They're not bad per se, but they don't increase the time of engagements by any sort of clearly visible magnitude, while they can be very annoying to play against and may be confusing for new (maybe even old) players because you have to "remember" 2 different ranges for each unit - level and uphill/downhill. There are simply better options.
Random miss chance when firing uphill: Or in other words, the Brood War high ground mechanics, This mechanic can significally increase the time of engagements, which I and probably the majority of community will agree is good for the game. It is exciting because you don't know if one player will beat another players army that already in position. There is a big "what will happen next", the uncertanity, which is what keep people watching the game. The suspense is what keeps the view count high in every sport, and this is missing in Starcraft 2, because once you see a small army on a hill being pushed by a bit bigger army attacking it from the downhill, you can tell who is going to win. With random miss chance, you cannot always tell who is going to win, which is believe is good. At the same time I have to tell about the flaw of this solution - it can be frustrating when your Tank or another long range unit misses 3 times in a row, and you cannot open up the passage to some part of the map that has been cut off by the enemy units. It is exciting, yes, but sometimes can take enjoyment away.
I believe the two best ways to implement HGA is random miss chance and reduction of damage when shooting uphill, but only when applied after the armor penalty. Random miss chances advantage is randomness and not being so punishing to low damage units, while reductions advantage is reliability. We need HGA because positional play can be very interesting, not boring. There is a lot of focus on mechanics in Starcraft 2, and strategical play is suffering. Bringing HGA could give us the much needed defenders advantage (think PvP and all the band-aids to prevent 4G vs 4G that came later), and hopefully with it in place, some of the band-aids can go away. And if the band-aids go away or are nerfed at least, maybe we can also nerf harassment units damage a bit here and there.
With HGA in the game, I believe it should a bit less up to Blizzard, but more to the map-makers to balance the game. Small changes to maps can skew the races balance a lot, I would be great if the SC2 map-makers looked at what worked in Brood War maps. Not to simulate it, but to learn from it and its mistakes and evolution. Learn how change to expansions ramp or entrance can change the balance, how having open middle or chokes change the matchups. Think before maps are designed, and write down what works and what doesn't. Simply make better maps.
tl:dr
Bring some form of HGA to the game, it can make the game only more, not less exciting. Also, design the maps with HGA in mind.


The Siege Tank and the Mech style
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I already covered it a little bit, but I would like to come back to the issues of the Siege Tank (ST). Fist of all, positional play is a lot less viable in SC2 then in other games. Some of it is because there is no High Ground Advantage. Some of it is because of the way maps are layed out, with multiple paths going everywhere, not allowing you to get and hold an access to expansions. And without positional play, there is no Mech. Yes, there are people that are happy that Cyclone is a unit that shoots when you move it around. People that are happy with Siege Tanks being picked up in Siege mode and dropped in it as well. But I think we lost something that was dear to many strategists. The real Mech style. What Mech style in Brood War represented, was a slow moving, largely immobile ball/cloud of death, that was very, very strong defensively, and could be broken by abusing its vulnerability (lack of mobility) by expanding more then Mech player. Mech player didn't have to be super quick, or have the best micro in the world. He had to outsmart his opponent with strategical play and careful placement of his/her units. It was truly so much different style than highly mobile Bio play. And that was the true Mech.
Mech was composed of units that supported each other by each doing it's dedicated job. Tank was the main ground damage dealer, with its powerful AoE, but was vulnerable to air attacks, was immobile and ineffective when not in Siege Mode. Goliath was a dedicated long range Anti-Air unit, with less then impressive, slow and weak ground attack. Vulture was the most mobile unit, but also with lowest DPS - but thanks to mines, Mechs big weakness of friendly fire could be reduced thanks to it ability. Melee units were disposed of with mines. Air units with Goliaths. Tanks destroyed other ranged units on the ground. Science Vessels provided detection and could be used to snipe other casters with EMP. They supplemented and helped each other, but the chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Attacking with air units without sufficient amount of Goliaths ended bad for the Mech. Masses of flanking melee units tore through Goliaths and Tanks without mines and cheap Vultures to block them. Catching the Mech ball when the Tanks are unsieged put Terran in big disadvantage. It was interesting to watch and play with, or play against.
The "problem" with SC2 mech is that it doesn't resemble that style. Mech in SC2 is too similiar to Bio, or the way Protoss play. There is much less strategy involved. If everything looks and plays in the same way, it becomes less interesting. There is also less choice for the players to differenate their style of play.
Mech doesn't need Goliath from Brood War to work like it used to. It needs units with clear job descriptions, weaknesses and different movement speeds, and also less overlap between them. Flying Siege Tank is therefore an anti-thesis of Mech as a style of play because it makes it possible to ignore Tank's two biggest weaknesses. And SC2 "mech" is not really what Mech is supposed to be like.
- You can change Tanks position without going first into the vulnerable unsieged mode, and you cut significant amount of time doing it, greatly increasing Tanks mobility. Not to mention, it looks fucking stupid.
- The Cyclone is not a bad unit vs air, but it is not weak vs ground either. It doesn't need support of a Tank that much to fight ground, while itself is not that great in protecting Tank lines from hit and run tactics because of its range and not the biggest DPS vs air.
- Hellion/Hellbat protects against masses of light units, but that is it. It is only thanks to unit clump that they can protect the Mech ball from massable melee units (Zealot/Zergling).
- Widow Mine does similiar job as a Vulture, protecting the ball from melee. It is also ridiculously strong vs clumped air, while still being great vs ground. It overlaps with Cyclone anti-air, and Hellion/Hellbat vs melee and friendly fire reduction. Also, having high (5) range, it overlaps with Siege Tank, doing high damage to a single target while in its primary, immobile attack mode.
- Thor can both block enemy units with its size and it is quite alright vs air. It therefore overlaps with the Cyclone and Widow Mine anti-air job, Hellion/Hellbat and Widow Mine job of preventing melee from overruning Tanks.
- Raven doesn't snipe casters in any way. PDD makes ranged units suck even more vs Tank line. Turret provides some high DPS defense, but has to be placed on unoccupied tiles which makes it unusable in battle, and usable only for turtling/harassment. Seeker Missile had a lot of reworks, current one being too slow to prevent casters from dealing damage, and only used to annoy ground forces. But even then, Raven is a good support unit all around.
- Ghost can snipe casters, both with its snipe ability, and with EMP rounds. Unfortunately, casters and their spells are nerfed massively because of the Smart Cast, so anti-caster is not as neccessary as it was in Brood War. Ghost is not a bad addition per se, but doesn't contribute from mech upgrades and requires a spare techlab on Barracks.

There is a set of rules that needs to be followed in order to make it viable.
1. First rule is simple, we need 4 basic "mech" units to fill up 4 positions:
Anti-ground glass cannon unit that need to be babysitted
Anti-air unit
Melee stopper/surround preventer/damage "tank"
Support detector/caster killer
2. Anti-ground unit needs to be highly efficient and "OP" compared to other units in its price range. It cannot have any means of attacking or protecting itself from air.
3. Either anti-air, anti-ground, or both needs to be highly immobile and slow. Along with the one above, in means that Mech player cannot push out early and rush the opponent, but has to gather the composition of efficient anti-ground and other units solely for its protection.
4. Melee preventer is a unit that is either quite big in size, has a high DPS but very short range attack, or has some sort of slow/distraction effect on opponents units. Or a combination of those traits.
5. Melee preventer has also low HP, is light, not armored, and has relatively low cost and low to no gas cost - it is the first line unit that is hit most by Anti-Ground unit's splash attacks.
6. Support unit has next to no combat value on its own, is used as a detector, has relatively high gas cost, is highly mobile and counters casters.
7. Mech units in one core (vs ground, vs air) or more categories need to be a bit more expensive in cost but also more supply efficient then average unit. This makes Mech this scary force that takes time to prepare, but 200/200 Mech force needs to be killed with larger supply of units (240? 260?), but 200/200 Mech force should also cost more then 200/200 force made up from other, non-Mech units.

So how can we fix mech? Here is my proposition, which is one of many, maybe not the best one, but as long as you work with above points, you shouldn't have too many problems.
Some ideas may seem similiar to what Brood War did, it is intentional, because it simply did work. Some things are balanced taking into account removed macro mechanics, which I would like to discuss later.
Tank:
- 35 damage + 35 vs armored when sieged
- no more Overkill Protection/Smart Targeting
- cannot be picked up when in Siege mode OR after being picked up in Siege Mode, it is dropped unsieged with 2 second cooldown before first attack.
- siege/unsiege time increased by 10-20%
- 10-20 HP less
- 2-2.5 supply
Fills the role of a heavy DPS hitter that is very immobile and need to be babysitted, as it can be easily killed on its own. Removal of Overkill Protection makes it scale worse in the late game (or when massed), but overall buffs make it better in the early game. If it is too strong as a rush opening/cheese, Siege Mode research can be reintroduced.
Cyclone:
- cost down to 125/75
- can be reactored
- HP down to 130-140
- 16-20 air damage (+2 every upgrade), 1 second cooldown, 7 range
- 10-13 ground damage (+1 every upgrade), 1 second cooldown, 6 range
- Lock-On (or any other name, Steady Targeting would be fine for example) is a researchable passive ability that increases air range when Cyclone is not moving up to 9-10 range over time (example: +1 range every 2 seconds), and reduces air range back to 7 when Cyclone is moving (example: 1 range lost for every 1 second of movement)
- 2-2.5 supply
- no longer automatically attacks while moving
- has turret tracking
- same movement speed as a tank or 0-20% faster
Fills the role of a anti-air unit. Cost, HP and supply is reduced to allow it to be produced early in the game without having to wait for a good economy first. Ground attack is much worse to prevent it from becoming a unit which is good vs everything, which was a bad design. I also believe that automatic shooting on the move is bad as it doesn't encourage micro, it makes the unit mico for itself without players input which is just plain stupid.
Hellion/Hellbat:
- 75 Mineral cost
- Hellion can deploy a single Widow Mine, which cannot be replaced. Mines cannot be deployed in Hellbat mode.
- an additional upgrade increases available mines from 1 to 2 (or 3, subject to balance)
- radius and size increased by 5-15%
- Hellbat is no longer biological
- Hellbat HP reduced to 120 from 135
- Hellion targeting range down to 4 from 5 - fire length remains the same
- Hellbat base ground damage down from 18 to 14-16
Widow Mine:
- Drilling Claws removed from the game
- doesn't target workers and casters
- 100 splash damage
- single target damage removed
- Overkill Protection removed
- can aquire clocked units, but do not reveal clocked units (allows mine drag)
- range down to 3
- targets only ground units
- mine unburrows when locking on target (0.75 second lockdown duration), allowing it to be targeted without detection
- each mine can attack only once, and pounces onto its target during which time it can still be targeted and destroyed
- mine has 30-40 HP
- mine still follows the target it locked down on even if it exits range before lockdown is finished
It works like Vulture from Brood War while still being relatively different. It is cheaper then current Hellion -> more massable, but also bigger in size to block melee units better. Widow Mine is changed to work like Spider Mine -> with Siege Tank and Liberator another source of "mobile" positional control unit is uneeded, as the units overlap too much. Removal of anti-air prevents it from being a "build 2-3 mines and your Tanks are invulnerable to air with a few Cyclones/Thors/Liberators" formula. Changing it to non-reusable mine brings more decision making and strategy to its use. Additional upgrade can be added, so that once burrowed, mines can be unburrowed and repositioned.
Raven:
- gains EMP from Ghost at 100 energy cost, has to be researched first
- PDD has 30 hp and 250 energy, each point of damage shot down/blocked reduces energy by same amount, PDD loses 5 points of energy per second until it stops working. PDD requires 75 energy to cast and follows the unit it has been cast on - can be cast on a unit to follow it or on the ground as normal.
- Auto-Turret removed from the game
- HP up to 175-185
- movement speed buff reduced by 10-20%
PDD is a more balanced version of the current ability, which is discriminatory - it is bad vs fast attacking, low damage units, but makes high impact, high cooldown units efficiency a lot less useful. It should also be a lot less useful in turtling. EMP move to Raven is going to be discussed in more detail in "Ghost vs High Templar - two hard counters gone wrong". With the Parasitic Bomb, Raven needs more health, not speed that has been buffed so much not so long ago - a unit that is so expensive should never be so fragile, unless its abilities have a longer range then of a similiarly priced unit. Every race has an air unit that specializes in anti-air, so Raven's HP has to be increased at least to 175 imho.


Ghost vs High Templar - two hard counters gone bad
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Ghost is a unit that is used to counter High Templar with EMP. Problem is, High Templar is a unit that is used to counter Ghost with its Feedback. That produces a bad unit interaction, in which Ghost hard counters High Templar, and Templar can hard counter Ghosts if and only if they are not microed correctly. Snipe/EMP can instantly dispose of Ghost. Feedback can kill a Ghost outright. Snipe/EMP/Storm/Feedback is not a micro game - it is a Clicker Heroes game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clicker_Heroes
You click, and the spell is almost instanteneous. Range of each spell predeterminates who is going to come out ahead, as EMP usually hard counters HT, hard. In the same way, Feedback hard counters other spellcasters - Infestors, Vipers and Ravens, but also normal units that happen to have abilities like Medivacs or Banshees. I already discusses earlier the Smart Cast in SC2, and I believe without it, those bad interactions would not be as common, as every Feedback/EMP has to be cast individually, forcing players who will never break some of the APM barriers to make a choice then casting Storm or Feedback. Spellcasting becomes more taxing, but spells can be made stronger, and everyone should still be happy.
But lets go back to Feedback. Where does it come from, and how did it look like? It comes from Dark Archon in Brood War, an expensive 3-tier unit that costs 250 minerals, 200 gas, so it is more expensive then an Ultralisk or Reaver, and only Battlecruiser and Carrier cost more. So yes, it is an expensive and rare unit. What about Feedback? In Brood War it has 10 range, costs 50 energy and other than that, it is the same spell as in SC2. So how having Feedback fits with the Starcraft 2 Smart Cast on a relatively cheap unit that is High Templar? It works in Brood War because of the following reasons:
- it is only available on a high supply unit (4 is a lot in brood war) and very expensive unit (250/200)
- it is not massable because of above and lack of Smart Cast
- it is not massable because Dark Archon has no damage abilities on his own.
Let me focus a bit on the last point, by giving a couple of examples:
- BW: Queen - has spawn Broodling (150), killing some of the units types instantly, but has no damage dealing spells on its own
- BW: Science Vessel - has EMP and Irradiate, but Irradiate does not kill anything instantly and deals damage over time
- BW: High Templar - has no one-hit-KO abilities
- BW: Dark Archon - has Mind Control and Feedback, so two one-hit-KO abilities, but no damage dealing on its own
- BW: Defiler - has Plague which deals damage over time, no one-hit-KO abilities
- BW: Arbiter - has Stasis which immobilizes but also makes units invulnerable at the same time. No damage dealing spells
No spellcaster has a click and kill spell while having damage dealing spells at the same time. Now lets look at some SC2 spellcasters:
- HT: Feedback one-hit-KO (1hKO), Storm
- Viper: Abduct 1hKO, Parasitic Bomb
- Infestor: Neural Parasite 1hKO, Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans
- Raven: Seeker Missile 1hKO and Auto-Turret, BUT Seeker Missle does not work instantly
- Ghost: EMP 1hKO and Snipe 1hKO

Feedback and other 1hKO spells don't work in SC2 because it is available on a cheap, quite massable units that do damage on their own and are too easy to use properly because of Smart Casting.
Feedback counters Battlecruisers, Banshees, Medivacs, Infestors, Ravens and used to even counter Thors. It is simply too easily accesible and spammable. Instant spells that kill units with a single click are not micro. It is not a show off of skill, but fast clicking. It is not impressive when someone does that, because anyone can do it, even in Silver league or lower.
So how can we "fix" feedback? Well, if feedback was not accessible easily, and was available on a costly unit, simple solution would be to decrease its availability in half. 100 energy per cast, voila - more costly then Storm, bringing more decision making into the game - should I disable enemy spellcaster unit and prevent its spells/abilities, or Storm his units and deal damage? I believe this soft nerf to Feedback would be welcome.
So what about EMP? Terran needs it because from Brood War to SC2, Protoss technology has improved drastically. While in Brood War shields were taking full damage from attacks, now they only take whatever the base damage is. So if Tank deals 35+15 damage, now it only does 35 damage to Zealot's shields, not "full" damage which would be 35+15=50, like it would happen with BW shield. Terran needs EMP because Blizzard wants Bio viable in every matchup. In order to achieve that, they introduced us a Barracks unit that has more HP then Factory units (Marauder), so Terran ball is not decimated by Storm. To further prevent Storm from being effective, they gave us EMP on a bionic, mineral heavy unit (Ghost). And because Minerals are so easy to gather because of the Mule, Ghost can be produced in big numbers. Storm was also nerfed both in damage and radius from BW, and Marine's got an upgrade to its HP (55 total, 40 in Brood War). Just like Feedback casting is not impressive, neither is EMPs which can be cast from long range and only require fast clicking after pressing one button. Would it work better without Smart Cast? I believe so.
But another reason why EMP is so strong, is because Ghost is a very small unit that is hard to distinquish from other Bio when clumped and hard to snipe. It is frustrating to play against, when you struggle to see where the Ghosts are, with different spells being cast and Medivacs flying on top of them. I believe the EMP spell needs to be moved on a bigger, easier to spot unit - the Raven. It is big, flying, easy to target, mobile, and costs more gas, which reduced the massability aspect.
Raven already has a dissapointing spell - Auto-Turret. In past it had stuipid duration, making it good only for turtling. Now it has bigger damage, but short duration. Unfortunately, it cannot be placed during the battle because its placement works same as placing buildings - it there are units on the ground, the spell is useless. If we remove it and give EMP to Raven, we can kill two birds with one stone. Energy requirement should be higher, at 100 or 125 energy - it is a powerful ability, with long range, that turns casters into dead weight - 75 energy is just not enough.
Another reason why EMP should be moved, is because with it being on Ghost, Mech style of play is suffering having no good spellcasters on its own. A Raven flying over Bio army doesn't look as bad as a group of Ghosts tagging along Siege Tanks, Cyclones, Vikings and Hellions.
tl:dr
"Click and kill" spells are too common and cheap when it comes to energy requirement. I already discussed Neural Parasite before, I'm also going to talk about Abduct later, but the point is, they are not interesting to watch, frustrating to play against, they don't bring joy when you perform them yourself and being massable and easy to use with Smart Cast removes some of the decision making aspects of the game. This kind of abilities should be either on very expensive units which do not contribute themselves to damage dealing, or the requirements for energy should be way higher.


A more specialist/sneaky Ghost
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So we got rid of EMP on Ghost in the section above, how are we going to replace it? It is a known fact that Terran Bio needs a lot of minerals to be effective - Marines, Marauders and Barracks are mineral heavy units/building. Terran needs a gas dump with having to only pay for Medivacs, right? Then why is it that Ghost costs primarily minerals (200/100)? Once more I'm going to refer to Brood War - Ghost used to cost 25/75. Now it is a 200/100 unit. Lets compare this unit from the past to the current one:
- Cost: 25/75 to 200/100
- HP: 45 to 100
- Damage: 10 to 10+10 light, but with longer cooldown
- Range: 7 to 6
- Supply: 1 to 2
- Nuclear Strike time: 14 seconds + 3 to 20 seconds
Nuclear Strike damage: 500 or 2/3 of building HP, whichever is greater to 300 + 200 building

So is 175 minerals and 25 gas worth it to deal less DPS vs armored, a bit more DPS vs light, and 55 extra HP? While at the same time it loses 1 range, costs 1 more supply and the Nuke itself takes more time and cannot even bring powerful units down? Yes, it has Snipe ability and currently EMP, but that is still not right.
Ghost in my opinion should work as a specialist unit. It needs to be sneaky, long range assassin, capable of infiltrating enemy base. Here is my idea of reworked Ghost:
- 50 mineral 100 gas cost, 2 supply
- 80 HP
- 15 damage, + 10 biological or light, same cooldown as now
- range 7
- Nuclear Strike time down to 18 from 20, plus 4 seconds before landing Ghost can be microed again/killed without cancelling the Nuke
- Nuke damage to 500 or 1/2 of building HP, whichever is greater
- EMP moved to Raven
- New ability available to Ghost that has to be researched in Ghost Academy before its usable:
Disables mobile detector (Observer, Overseer, Raven, but not Turret or Photon Cannon), whatever name fits and you fancy, but the gist is:
- 10-18 second duration
- range 8-9
- energy cost 100-150
- mobile detector temporarly loses ability to detect (or to detect Ghosts only) for the duration
That way we get a Ghost that fits the image of a spec ops/sniper unit - longer range, lower HP, more damage, it becomes the gas dump for Terran Bio, possible increase in Nuke play, Ghost regains its identity of an invisible infiltrator.
Later I will post my idea for fixing the horribly designed 8 armor Ultralisk, so when we already talk about the Ghost, lets talk its Steady Targeting ability.
170 damage for 50 energy is just plain stupid and retarded. It will be overpowered as hell in lower leagues, where players will not be able to spot or damage the Ghost in time for it to kill your important units, while at the same time will be meh in pro games, once pros figure out how to deal with the Ghost and tickle it within those 2 seconds of channeling. Be it Storm or Fungal, damaging the Ghost is easy if you position your casters well. I suspect once LotV rolls out, we will see some OP ways of using Ghost, and after 2-3 weeks it is going to stop altogether. So here is my idea of the redesigned ability:
Scope Targeting
- targets a unit within 12 range, minimum range of 6 (can target anything 6 to 12 range away from the Ghost)
- channeling time of 2 seconds, doesn't stop when Ghost is damaged
- 30 damage +70 biological (or light, or both)
- 50 energy cost, if target closes under 6 range, or moves away from 12 range, energy is wasted and Ghost misses its shot
There you go, an ability that deals with Ultralisks and other casters, but can be baited - at the same time, baiting doesn't counter Ghost that much as it costs only 50 energy. It requires timing on when to use the ability - use it too soon, enemy might pull back and cause you to waste your energy, use it too late, enemy units will be too close and same thing will happen. It provides countermicro which is based not on damaging Ghost, but unit movement which is easier to perform and doesn't punish lower leagues as much. Damage values are subject to balance, as always, but I believe Ghost should not fire further then 12 range, or maybe even fire the ability uphill.
tl:dr
Terran Bio needs a gas dump, current Ghost doesn't help with it - it also doesn't make any sense that a sniper/spec-ops unit has same range as a Marine. Some changes are neccessary.


Pathing
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A simple snip from the great write up sums it all up:
"Not only is this visually unappealing when every army looks the same, but it makes combat extremely deterministic. After all, if engagements only can arise out of one formation, it makes sense that units will behave in one way as they fight in that formation. This determinism takes away a large amount of excitement and thrill from fights, because often the winner is known before the battle even starts."
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/301216-starcraft-2-and-the-philosophy-of-design
I highly advice anyone to read it, as it has very good points. Now, nobody is saying we should have Stalkers that are not able to go up the ramp - only a bit less efficient, less fluid pathing.


Viper - simple changes before Blizzards typical nerf-hammer (see Infestor WoL->LotV)
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Parasitic Bomb (PB) is very strong it seems. It deals 90 damage over a short period of time, damaging units and destroying them. It is a weaker version of Defiler's Plague, so why people fuss so much about it? Lets compare Plague with PB:
- 300 damage vs 90 damage
- damage over 25 seconds (12 DPS) vs damage over 7 seconds (12.8 DPS)
- deals damage to all units in targeted radius vs deals damage to targeted unit and units around it
- doesn't kill units leaving them with 1 hp vs kills units
The last point is very important - it allows for counterplay. Parasitic Bomb is just a Plague with modifications which made something beautiful into something easily broken and OP. Even if Parasitic Bomb targeted ground units, and even if it dealt more damage over longer period, it would still be balanced and not OP as long as the spell does not:
- stack
- kill units but leaves them with 1 HP
It's that simple. I don't believe PB needs to be nerfed, I believe it could even be buffed with damage and duration, considering its cost (example, to 160 damage over 13 seconds), or even an option to also affect ground units (maybe an upgrade, Blizzard? Why not just make a Vipers Nest/Lair/Mound/Cavern/Den/Hole and "nerf" Vipers by intoducing upgrade requirement for its abilities?). But it absolutely cannot stack and should not kill units as it destroys counterplay. I believe it should work like Plague/Fungal Growth, affecting units in radius, and not like Irradiate which affects units around the targeted unit, but this is just my personal opinion. Buff Parasitic Bomb, but remove stacking, remove its ability to kill units, and possibly add an upgrade for Parasitic Bomb to target ground.

So what about Abduct? I believe this ability should be scrapped if it's not changed. As there are no extra animations for ground units landing, it creates the uncanny valley effect. It also offers almost no counterplay, as any unit pulled out will be destroyed in split of a second. It looks horrible and unnatural, its too cheap to cast for a unit that can replenish energy (75), there is next to no counterplay against it. To me that is 3 strikes, with energy cost being the only one that can be changed without complete redesign of the ability.
So how do we go about redesigning the Abduct? Here is a better looking, counterplay offering suggestion:
- There is an animation same as now, of Viper being connected to the targeted unit, but lasts 6-10 seconds
- Unit is not being yanked in direction of a Viper, it is being slowly pulled towards it at 75% of its speed or normal worker speed, whichever is greater
- Connection and pull is disrupted if the distance between Viper and targeted unit is greater then 10-15 units of range
- Cannot be used on Tanks is Siege mode (that would look silly), or is less effective (25% of pull power)
- Possibly +1 range, or stays the same, subject to balance
What it does, it allows some counterplay, as you can micro your unit to run away in opposite direction (although slowly), you can also kill the Viper before your unit is pulled by it towards the Zerg ball. Also, it doesn't look so distrubing. You can let your unit be pulled out, but still attack with it, or you can try to run away and not get pulled, at the expense of damage your unit would otherwise deal. Simple, less overpowered, offers more options on both sides, scores high marks in my book.
Balancing can be twisted around the speed of the pull (50-125% of units speed), energy cost, amount of time being pulled, range of how far can Viper be before the connection is broken - there are many options to choose from.

Consume is also changed from BW for no good reason. It steals HP from a building, instead of sacrificing a unit. While the need to feed of building to replenish energy prevents Viper from staying on the battlefield all the time, it is not good enough as a sacrifice. Losing this couple of hundred HP on a Hatchery/Lair or other high HP buildings doesn't sacrifice anything - if a Terran drop kills a Hatchery, he will most likely kill it with or without full HP. What Consume on buildings does, it only forces Zerg to get another Viper, so one is always near the battlefield, making Zerg army even less supply efficient.
Consume cast on units is different and arguably requires more skill to use, even if you don't have to go back to nearest base to send the Viper to replenish energy. Yes, you can do it on the same screen where the Viper is, but it has a cost - it costs minerals, it costs gas. Yes, you can consume two Zerglings to replenish 100 energy and it costs you only 50 minerals - but it still has some cost. Besides, do you always have Zerglings on the battlefield? What if you play some ranged, or even air composition - in both cases, it will cost you probably 100-200 minerals and at least 50-100 gas to replenish energy on a Viper. Might as well get another Viper and have two for the same cost, right? Yes, but it requires you to wait longer for a single spell to be usable.
Having Consume on units instead of buildings always carries some cost, however small, and to keep it small, you have to remember to build and save Zerglings somewhere outside of the fight, but close enough for the Viper to get to it quickly. Viper consuming buildings HP does not cost anything but time, you might just as well get another Viper, in that case you only lose some supply and cost of the Viper. If, however, you consume units, you lose minerals, gas, more larva, and while your attack is coming faster, because you can recharge on the battlefield, your attack is weaker, because you have just sacrificed your own units.
Consuming units is therefore both short term buff (you cast spell now, not after Viper goes back to and from a base), but also long term nerf (you lose more resources, larva, and units that you won't have anymore because you sacrificed them). I believe it is also more interesting, and changing how Consume works just for the sake of making it different from Brood War wasn't worth it.

Blinding Cloud (BC) is not a bad ability per se, but it is inferior design-wise from Dark Swarm. Now, a lot of what I wrote in earlier points about other units etc. may feel like I cry for a BW 2.0, but it's not it. I appreciate good design when I see it, even if I don't point it out (example, I believe Medic+Dropship=Medivac is a great design which gives a lot more synergy to Bio). But in this case, the design, while not bad, is inferior. Dark Swarm is a defensive/offensive spell that when cast on the ground creates an area where any unit (friend of foe) benefits from not being hit by direct ranged hits, only by melee and splash. Blinding Cloud is mainly a defensive spell, with much lower offensive potential.
When you cast BC on enemy units, their range is reduced to 1. Enemy either has to push forward, exposing themselves to melee units, or run away. Pushing forward is a very bad move, as your units don't attack while they are being attacked at the same time as you move out of the BC, and melee units have shorter distance to get to your ball. So you pull away. But as you pull away, Zerg will be more likely to stay back and wait for BC to dissapear, because if Zerg moves into BC to chase you, his ranged units will lose their range and be in disadvantage. The only composition of Zerg that benefits from BC is melee/air. BC does not synergise with Roaches and Hydralisks, which are both core units in some matchups. It doesn't synergise well with melee units - all it does, is makes the opponent pull out and position themselves outside of the Blinding Cloud, while still shooting your melee. Shame, that the only compositions working with BC at its fullest are mostly Broodlord based compositions.
With Dark Swarm, no composition is penalized. You can throw down Dark Swarm and move Hydra/Ling inside to profit. You can move only your Lings to profit. You could move in Roaches, Ravagers, anything that your heart desire, and benefit from the spell, slowly pushing with next Dark Swarms towards your opponents base. And while Mutalisk/Guardian or any other air unit was not synergising with Dark Swarm, that was still ok because they were generaly not used as a part of the army in Brood War anyway. Broodlord, on the other hand, synergises with BC all too well, as air units are unaffected by it, while at the same time, Viper can protect Broodlords with Parasitic Bomb.
I'm not saying we need Dark Swarm on Viper. But I wanted to point out the flaw of BC, which is lack of support for offensive power of ground ranged units and even melee units. I already talked why "Skyxxxx" is not good for the game, and the point still stands - Bloodlord/Viper is a result of Blizzard trying to give us Dark Swarm which is not Dark Swarm at the same time. Just give us Dark Swarm on Viper and the horrible Broodlord balling in every game will stop - as I said before, air compositions or "sky" should not always be the ultimate end-game composition. Dark Swarm doesn't have to be 100% same as in Brood War - maybe chance to hit could be changed from 100% to 75%. Dark Swarm supports ground units, not air, which is better for everyone.
tl:dr
Viper abilities could and should be redesigned. Unit is very often blamed for being OP in combination with Broodlord especially, and its abilities do not offer countermicro. I provided some redesign ideas that should be taken into consideration.


Nydus Worm, Overlord transport and killing racial diversity
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Nydus Worm. This might be a bit biased and maybe I'm wrong, but this is my personal opinion, but current Nydus Worm makes me cry. First, Blizzard makes Nydus Worm (NW) being able to be built anywhere on the map. Not on creep, anywhere, even in your opponents base. They also move it to tier 2. They create this ping on the map "the Nydus has popped down there!" to warn players of NW location. Then, later on, they decide it isn't working, they need to make it invulnerable to damage when being build. The reasoning is as follows: "To enhance the diversity and strength of harass options for Zerg, the Nydus Worm can no longer take damage until it is finished unburrowing.". Problem is, races identities are blurred and races are less diverse.
Nydus Worm functions a lot like Warp Prism - allowing you to attack enemy bypassing the cliffs and drop/unload directly into opponent base. While they work in different way, both have same feeling and the effect of using them is sameish. Bypassing cliffs and terrains is gimmicky, unless you use drops, in which case you can lose your units on their way in the transport if it's sniped. As it is now, it is not worth it to transport units between bases in Nydus Network, and NW is almost only used for harassment, which together with invulnerability is just plain stupid and irritating to play against. Not everyone should be able to ignore terrain, like many units already do, which is bad in my opinion. Reaper, Collosus, Adept (kind of), Stalker, Warp Prism+Warp Gate, Nydus - it is enough, those cliffs are and should be in place for a reason.
What about Overlord transport? In BW, WoL and HotS, Overlords have upgrade that makes all Overlords being able to transport units. And I think it was pretty good, and nothing was wrong with it. It is actually unique to Zerg that they don't use dropships that are made one by one - instead, an upgrade makes all of them capable of transporting troops. What Blizzard is doing, is trying to replace something that already works by something new, for the sake of it being new, and changing the thing that works and redesigning it. So now we have NW that is doing Overlords job of dropping. Were Overlords underused? Possibly, but not because there was a Nydus Worm, but maybe because Overlord Drop was not viable in current economy, or simply, there was no units (Lurker wasn't there yet) that could be dropped reliably and not only kill workers, but also delay mining. Banelings die when they kill workers, meaning there is nothing stopping Protoss or Terran from pulling his workers away, killing banelings with ease and going back to mining. Also, without speed upgrade, Overlord is not a good dropping tool. With the speed upgrade it is viable, but it takes a lot of time and resources. Because you will most likely have only one Lair, you can research Speed and Drop one after another, not at the same time, and because compared to Brood War, economy is faster, this long tech time is not appropriate as it doesn't come early enough to justify the cost and research times.
So what could be done instead? And how do we go about Nydus Worm that is being pushed to be an invulnerable "doom drop" tool?
- Overlord Drop upgrade is back and it is moved to Hatchery, so it can be researched from your second hatch while you research Overlord Speed in Lair
- Overlords with Speed still too slow to be viable? Increase Speed Overlord speed by 10%. If still too slow, another 10%, until we find a good spot
- Does the new Overlord Drop come too quickly in the early game (the Elevator technique)? Increase the cost or research time.
- Nydus Worm no longer gives global warning/sound effect to other players
- Nydus Worm requires to be build on Creep (can be build on creep provided by an Overlord)
- Nydus Worm is no longer invulnerable when being build, it gains health over time like all other Zerg buildings when build
- Nydus Worm cost decreased to 50/50 or even 25/25
- Nydus Network cost decreased to 150/150
- Possibly Nydus Network build time increased by some amount so it is more scoutable
Nydus can still be used to cheese in combination with an Overlord, Zerg regains its unique dropship characteristics, super early drops in the early game are no longer possible and band-aid requirement of Evolution Chamber can go away. Overlord drop in mid-late game is more viable. If, and I'm saying IF, Tanks are brought back to their former glory, or if High Ground Advantage is introduced, so that positional play becomes more important - then there will be more then enough place for a Nydus in the game.
tl:dr
Killing something that makes races more unique in favour of pushing something new that's "bigger, better, faster" is not the way to go. If you can balance something with smaller changes, do it, but please don't make races bland and behaving in a same way. Zerg should not be able to ignore terrain so easily, and not every race should have the exact same tools (Nydus=Warp Prism, Zerg having to "build" every transport seperately like Protoss or Terran).


Zerg as a MMO party and Ultralisk armor
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Ultralisk should be one of the easiest units to balance - melee units are much simpler after all. What was the primary role of Ultralisk in Brood War? It used to be quite big (about 50% bigger then Dragoon or Siege Tank), tanky unit (400 HP), that had good armor and speed, but single target damage. It is used not as a damage dealer, as Ultralisk is actually not that good in killing things itself, comparing its cost to damage ratio. 4 Zerglings which cost 100 minerals and 200 gas less are more effective in dealing damage. Hydralisks are better because they don't get stuck on terrain and other units, dealing damage from behind. The Ultralisk is therefore a "tank", not a damage dealer. This is the key to why Ultralisk is in such a bad shape from design stand-point.
This may be a little far-fetched comparison, but lets look how MMOs work (Blizzard, you have some experience here, no?). You usually have different classes, each one made for a different role. You have healers, mages, tanks, rangers, and assasins.
- healer doesn't contribute to the DPS, but buffs or heals the party (BW - none, SC2 Terran Medivac - good, Queen - quite bad at both)
- mages are fragile, ranged, able to debuff the enemy or cause damage (BW - Queen, Defiler - good, SC2 Infestor - good but unreliable, Viper - good)
- tanks are terrible at dealing damage, but are able to take a lot punishment (BW Ultralisk - good, SC2 Roach - quite good, SC2 Ultralisk - too good at both)
- rangers don't have the most DPS, support or health, but are good all around (BW Hydralisk - good, Roach - quite good, SC2 Hydralisk - bad)
- assasins are fragile, deal enourmous amounts of damage and are very fast (Zergling - good)
Obviously, SC2 is not a MMO - ranged units are much, much more common, and there are also other differences. But Zerg can fit into the comparison. Roach is hated because it does tanking well but its dps and speed are also quite good, resulting in a very bland and uninteresting unit. Infestor doesn't do a good job debuffing or dealing damage because Fungal Growth is too easy to evade. Hydras are way too fragile for their cost. Ultralisk is good at tanking but is also too good at dealing damage. And that is exactly why Ultralisk has problems as a melee unit:
Problem 1: it cannot be too fast, otherwise it will be OP because of both its HP and damage dealing - a melee unit cannot be good in all 3 areas of speed, attack and defense
Problem 2: because it is not fast and it is big, it derps around when there are Zerglings involved and cannot get to deal its damage
Problem 3: extention of 2 - because it stays behind, it doesn't tank for Zerglings, which die in seconds, leaving slow Ultralisk to fight on their own when Zerglings are dead
Blizzard tried to solve problem 2 - anyone remembers that nonsense of a ability that let Ultralisk burrow and charge? Yeah... another band-aid instead of looking at the actual issue. And now instead of tweaking it to tank for Zerglings, Blizzard increased its armor to be almost invulnerable to low damage units.
Fixing Ultralisk is easy, you just need to use your brain a litttle. I'll do the job for the designers instead:
- Ultralisk size and radius decreased by 25% (possibly more), so it doesn't derp as much
- Armor upgrade back to +2 from +4, so Terran Bio is no longer hard countered
- Speed upgrade makes a comeback, bringing Ultralisk speed to 95% of Zerligng speed with its speed upgrade off Creep, and likewise 95% on Creep to reduce derping even more
- Cost down to 250/200, or 225/200 with health reduced to 450
- Supply down to 5 (or even 4.5) from 6, because of the change below
- Splash damage is gone, Ultralisk deals 26(+3) damage, animation and model slightly altered to correspond with new attack
This way Ultralisk will not be left behind Zerglings and be on the frontline, being targeted more and performing role of a tank like it should. DPS is reduced, with +1 attack it kills Marine with Combat Shields up to +2 armor in two hits, so while its not good as with the splash, its not useless either. These modifications don't buff or nerf the Ultralisk - they change it to work as a part of composition, not as a big bad Slowling 2.0 that hardcounters Bio.
tl:dr
Make Ultralisk smaller, give it an upgrade to be almost as fast as Zergling with Speed. This way Ultralisk can actually be a part of the fight and do its supposed job of soaking up the damage. Remove splash to reduce supply and resource cost, making Ultralisk more accesible and actually worth to be produced. Revert the +4 armor upgrade back to +2. Make it synergise with Zergling, not compete with it.


Hydarlisk - how different damage types broke the all-round unit
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Here we come - the unit that has been called underpowered since WoL, and is accepted only because of how long it remained unchanged in the game. Lets compare Hydralisk from Brood War and the one in Starcraft 2:
Cost 75/25 vs 100/50
Supply 1 vs 2
HP 80 vs 80
Damage 10 (+1) (5 vs small/light) vs 12 (+1)
Cooldown 0.63 vs 0.54
Range 4+1 vs 5+1
Speed 0.75 and 1.1 (upgrade) of worker speed vs 0.8 and 1 of worker speed
What can be gathered without looking at combat stats is that SC2 Hydralisk is 2:1 mineral to gas ratio unit - it is a unit that slows down the rate of other tech. BW Hydralisk and SC2 Roach offers 3:1 ratio, which allows Zerg to include gas heavy units in compositions. BW Hydralisk is 10% faster off Creep, has same HP while it costs less, takes up less supply, has 1 less range. So why exactly are we paying 25 extra minerals and 25 gas for? 1 Range, less speed, less HP per cost, and less units because of 100% increase in supply cost? Crap damage scaling with upgrades? Each +1 attack increases BW Hydralisks damage by 10%, in SC2 only by 8%. Not a lot? Okay, but +3 BW hydralisk dealt 20.6 DPS, while SC2 deals 27.7 - difference is small if you take cost into account. BW Hydralisk deals damage more frequently on lower cooldown, meaning that a Hydralisk in BW will overkill less often - having a instanteneous attack also reduces overkill by a large margin, even without Overkill Protection. So even damage output is lowered, so again, what are we paying for, not having 50% less damage vs Marine, Zergling and Mutalisk penalty?
Yes we are. In SC2 we have none, light, armored and massive defense types. Massive is almost always armored, so in this case we will ignore it - Hydralisk doesn't deal +massive, nor such thing exists in Brood War. For now, lets assume they wanted Hydralisk to stay as it was in BW, 10 damage and all.
Step 1: In SC2 we have a Phoenix which is light, but Hydralisk is the only Anti-Air for Zerg. How can we make a Hydralisk that does 10 damage to Phoenix, but 5 to Mutalisk? We cannot, as 10-5 biological doesn't exist, and even then, Corruptor, Broodlord, Viper - would also take only 5 damage, so in ZvZ everyone would rush to SkyZerg, or die to all-in while trying. 5+5 armored? Then Hydralisk doesn't deal at all with Phoenix, and what's worse, Phoenix counters Hydralisk. Best way, lets stay with 10 damage to all, and also prevent boring (on the side note, imo exciting because at least it was different) Muta vs Muta wars.
Step 2: So we make ground to ground 5+5 armored. Well... what about the Hellion? We can make the attack 5+5 armored/mechanical. Meaning +5 is applied if the unit is either armored OR mechanical. Case closed.
Step 3: Oh boy oh boy, what about the Zealot? In BW Hydralisk dealt full 10 damage to shields, now it is 5 light +5 armored/mechanical, how do we make it right? add another "or +5 vs shields"? That's a bit too much now. Lets just make it 10 and get on with it.
Step 4: So we have a 10 damage air and ground Hydralisk, meaning it will be better vs Marines, Zerglings, Mutalisks and workers. Oops! We need to increase its cost to balance it out. Well, I guess we can just give it +1 range, and +2 damage. Lets also decrease its attack cooldown, because we don't know what are we doing. Lets also make it slower, and add one more supply cost, because a 100/50 unit should not cost 1 supply.
Step 5: Oh my, Hydralisk is "too strong" now for tier 1, lets move it to Lair, but lets leave both upgrades from BW, meaning that Hydralisk will be gimped without them (even as Stalker and Marine don't need to research +1 range anymore).

Problem with the Hydralisk is that it deals too much damage vs everything, making them too good vs Lings non-viable in ZvZ, while at the same time its unchanged health pool means that it loses cost-efficiently vs everything else, for example Roaches, which cost much less. It takes 14 shots for the Hydralisk to kill a Roach (10.5 second), while Roach kills Hydralisk in 5 shots, or 10 seconds. Roach therefore will kill Hydralisk that costs around 50% more mining time (100+50=150 vs 75+25=100). Hydralisk is slower then the Roach, meaning that they can't even kite them well with their range.
- Changing its 10 attack every 0.6 second to 12 every 0.54 is a really small upgrade.
- Being a tier 2 unit, and not being even faster then a worker with the upgrade makes it hard to micro Hydralisks and evade AoE attacks like Storm. Coming this late, the upgrade should be scrapped, and the bonus (speed or range) moved directly to the Hydralisk. I believe Hydralisk should get 3.1 speed off Creep, to be faster then the Roach.
- Only 80 health on a 100/50 unit is way too low, it means that any kind of AoE will decimate those expensive units in no time. 2 supply makes this only worse.
- with its DPS, cost and health the Hydralisk is not even a glass cannon, it is just glass. 2 Marines don't cost gas, have more HP between them, can be healed, are faster, have almost same range, and deal almost twice as much damage.
What could have Blizzard done instead? Keep it 75/25, 1 supply, 0.6 second cooldown, 4+1 range, keep it at Hatch tech with 80 HP and slow speed without the upgrade. 10 damage vs all air, but small changes to ground damage: 5 damage and +5 armored or mechanical or shields (maybe as a passive ability if engine cannot recognise that. Or, just go with tried and tested small, medium, large unit types, which gives more flexibility.
tl:dr
Hydralisk was underpowered for far too long, and it still is, just a bit less then before. Thank god range and speed upgrade has been merged, but it still isn't enough - for 2 supply and 100/50, you just don't get enough health for Hydralisk to be the unit that everyone loved in Brood War. I have not idea how its speed upgrade have been left so long on Hive tech, why its health was reduced from 90 to 80, and why it still is so slow off Creep. But this is another reason for Blizzard why they should not take something that work (damage types/armor types) and change it for the sake of changing it - Hydralisk, being an iconic unit, now only possesses the anti-air role.


Race identity/uniqueness
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...which is toned down in Starcraft 2. Lets talk about Zerg first, as I just finished writing about Hydralisk.

Zerg is the "swarmy" race. By that people mean loads of cheap, fragile but fast units streaming across the map. And if you compare damage to hp ratio in Brood War for all races, you will see that Zerg core units (Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Zergling, Lurker) are fast, deal great amount of damage, but at the same time do not have high HP. What they have in common is that they are not really cost-efficient - Zerglings die fast to stimmed Marines with Medics, die super fast to Storm, Archon splash, Reaver splash, Tank fire. Hydralisk die fast to those units as well, same with Mutalisks, while Lurkers are still countered by Storm, Dragoons, Tanks, are easily killed when caught out of position even by Marines. Hydralisks and Zerglings, the most core units, are both very supply efficient - it means you can have a really big number of them if you max out on them. And this is "swarmy" - an expensive resource wise, but very supply efficient army. It meant that while Zerg had almost constantly lower supply of units then Terran or Protoss, the Zerg player could trade almost equally with the opponent. Zerg core army in Brood War consists of fairly fragile units, requiring Zerg to use support units, like Ultralisk, to soak up damage, and casters to debuff the enemy and increase survivability of Zerg units (Plague, Dark Swarm, Ensnare). Even Devourer, Zerg's ultimate anti-air unit, was only a support unit for Mutalisks/Hydralisks, dealing low damage on its own, but debuffing armor and attack speed of the opponent.
Zerg army in Starcraft 2 is completely different - Roaches and Hydralisks are slow off Creep. Roaches HP is bloated to the point where it doesn't care much for AoE. Roaches are not fragile enough or mobile for a Zerg unit, and are supply inefficient but cost efficient (75/25 and 2 supply). Hydralisk on the other hand is too fragile for its cost, is supply inefficient, and not greatly cost-efficient (10 Brood War Hydralisks cost 750/250 and 10 supply for 800 HP, 158 DPS, while 700/350 army of SC2 Hydralisks cost 14 supply for 560 HP and 155 DPS - the difference is striking). Lurkers cannot be killed easily out of position because of their 200 HP and high range. Only Mutalisk and Zergling remain almost (almost) untouched.
Zerg needs a 1 supply unit, and it is a shame Hydralisk cannot perform this role, while Roach that had a good design in WoL beta was changed into bland, Marauder type unit, also with 2 supply, same as Hydralisk. I believe Blizzard messed up on this one, and to bring "swarm" into the Swarm gave us the... Swarm Host, Infestor, Broodlord, or in other words, free units.

Protoss core units used to have the most HP of all other races, while also the lowest DPS across the board. Protoss support was not about buffing or debuffing, but dealing damage. Powerful Storms, Reavers, Archons. Protoss had the only perm-cloaked unit, and a cloak-generating flying unit that is not a Hero and you could have more then one at the same time. Protoss used to be space nomads, rough and powerful. A ball of tough units that lasted long in battle, requiring the slow moving, heavy hitting but fragile support of High Templar and/or Reaver. Again, same with Zerg, Protoss got more rounded with other races, with its units having less HP/Shields (Zealot, Stalker/Dragoon), support that is mobile and with loads of HP but not the greatest damage output (Collosus), Storm got nerfed because of clumping (I believe also because Blizzard wanted to make Bio viable, but there were other ways of doing it without the Storm nerf).
Protoss should have more robust army - more hp, more damage per attack, longer cooldown, expensive units. As basic rules of design dictate, high damage should come with long cooldown. High HP was, kind of is, and definately should be normal for the Protoss race. Because of both HP and burst damage, units should be relatively expensive to balance it out. Pretty simple rules, which are basis of a good balance in any game. On the other hand, long cooldown with high damage means low or normal levels of DPS, so units should not be that much more expensive. I'll better show it as an example: unit 1 deals 10 damage every 2 seconds, has 40 hp and costs 50x, unit 2 deals 20 damage every 4 seconds, has 80 hp, costs 90 - more then 2x unit 1, because a group of units 2s can one shot units 1 more effectively, reducing overall unit's 1 combat dps much quicker - simple rules, basic of balance.
Another beef I have with SC2 Protoss is that it has more robots in its army then ever before (Oracle, Collosus, Disruptor, Sentry), while amount of Psi units have decreased (Dark Archon, anyone?) to... 2, HT and Archon (maybe Adept, but it doesn't have the psychic feel). I will talk a bit about the Zealot and Stalker later, probably I'll talk about Immortal as well, so I won't talk too much about Protoss for now. I like couple of Blizzards ideas (Warp Gate, Warp Prism), but I don't like their execution - I already said why when I wrote about Chronoboost/Warp Gate and Sentry.

Terran core army has been divided into Bio+support, and Mech. Bio+support works almost as it did, with the exception of Marauder, which I believe should be 1 supply, with less HP, less damage, less cost. I believe Bio should be vulnerable to AoE as a compensation for greatest DPS of all compositions in the game. I believe, with Medivac being a dropship that doesn't require upgrade, the extra mobility needs to be compensated by low base HP of Bio, Marauder included. I really don't like that Terran Marauder, basically a bloke in armored suit, feels almost as tanky as a Protoss unit, or a damn Siege Tank. It didn't feel right for me the minute I saw this unit in the WoL beta, and that feeling just won't go away even now, years later.
Mech I already covered, I will only say that it needs to be reworked for it to have an actual positional play and zoning. Liberator is a good design, but badly balanced in my opinion.

Similarity of air units has already been somehow discussed in the Air unit section before.
tl:dr
I would be easier if Blizzard converted all units and buildings exactly as they were in Brood War, not as Marines with 15 HP more, Siege Tanks tickling opponents, Zealots being less tanky, Storms and Archons that are less scary or Ultralisks that are untouchable. I wish Blizzard just added new units/abilities/techs on top of it. Work with what already was proven to work, and done some small balance tweaks here and there. I'm not saying they have to bring back every unit, like Goliath, Firebat, Scourge, Devourer, Arbiter, Dark Archon, Reaver. But some of the new units were/are hated by the community because they are just not as great as what we have already seen in previous game. This is why people don't like and that's why they are complaining - because Blizzard didn't address the actual issues and still doesn't listen to the community. They added or changed units against design of their respective races, without anyone asking for it. They suffocated racial diversity with units like Collosus, Roach, Marauder, high dps Ultralisk, filling in the holes that should be left empty.


Adept, Stalker, Reaper - why super mobility prevents units from being good in a straight up fight
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This will be rather short. People ask Blizzard to buff Protoss Core units/Gateway units, that they are not as good and cannot fight efficiently. You can see people asking for a Zealot buff, or Stalker buff. While I believe Zealot should get his 10 shields back, and Legs upgrade instead of a Charge... Stalker is a different beast. It cannot be buffed as long as it can Blink, because it would defy basic balance rule - a unit that has increased mobility, cannot be as good as "average" unit in a straight up fight.
Think about it for a second - what would happen, if Zealot had an ability allowing it to climb up and down on cliffs, ignoring terrain. Whoa, that would be OP. Think about Zerglings having such an upgrade at Lair - even more OP, right? What if High Templar or Broodlord suddenly got +200% increase in speed? OP? Yes, yes and yes again. Mobility necessitates that unit has to remain weaker then its less mobile counterparts. That is why Stalker cannot have 100 Health 80 Shield like Dragoon. Because of the Blink ability.
Same thing happens to the Adept - because of its Shade ability, its stats have to be balanced around the early game - but even here Blizzard doesn't listen to the voice of reason - If Adepts didn't 2 shot Marines/workers, people wouldn't have so much grief with the unit. Blizzard is going to reduce its HP/Shields even more, leaving us with a non-Protoss, relatively low HP but high DPS unit. Because of its mobility in the early game and is low position in the tech tree, its stats will be too low to scale good into the mid or late game. There would be nothing wrong if Adept had cloak as an upgrade in the Dark Shrine instead of shields and replace Dark Templar altogether.
A bit higher base attack and lower +light damage, scaled so that Adept didn't 2 shot tier 1 units would go a long way as well. The unit and the Shade ability has the potential, but more as a harass unit, not a core unit.
In case of the Reaper, same thing is true - cliff jumping prevents the unit from getting better stats, and with weak stats the unit is only good as a scouting tool or a cheese tactic. KD8 ability looks bad because of the same reason as Viper's Abduct - it looks unnatural and silly without extra animations in a game that doesn't use cartoon filter, like XIII for example. I'm going to repeat myself here, Reaper is to Terran as Stalker/Adept to Protoss. If Hydralisk was moved to tier 1, and Queen buffs reverted, then Reaper could be used against the Zerg, like it was some time ago, where Reaper openings vZ were common and quite full of unit micro - some balance tweaks with numbers could be used. There are also other ways of making Reaper work (as giving it some extra utility), but I won't discuss it now.
tl:dr
Gateway units won't be buffed as long as the terrain is ignored by them. Same thing applies to the Reaper.


Collosus - the bland, A-move nightmare
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Collosus is the unit with great visual design, but because of its looks, its game design suffers. Let me explain: Collosus is a big unit, so big in fact that it has to be targeted by anti-air, otherwise it would not make too much sense. Because of that, it absolutely cannot be fragile - Corruptors, Vikings, they all target Collosi reliably and without being blocked by ground units. To counterbalance it, Collosus has to have its HP increased, but it creates another problem - because of high HP pool, it cannot be also reliable as a burst damage dealer like Reaver or Siege Tank in Brood War, otherwise it would be overpowered. In effect, we got ourselves an expensive, high HP, relatively low DPS unit with long range and some splash. It breaks the rule of Protoss support being slow, but powerful and fragile. Collosus is fast, not so powerful and definately not fragile (for its cost, maybe, but not compared to other Protoss units with its massive 350 life). What makes it fragile is ability of anti-air focused units to target it, but any health boosts would break its ground vs ground balance.
What is also problematic is its speed of movement and ignoring terrain. A slow, hard hitting unit with a different attack pattern would be much more better for the game. Siege units should be slow or immobile - it is one of the basic rules of RTS balance, think of any RTS with an artillery, or even real life artillery. Siege units should also have long cooldowns if they are to deal terrible, terrible damage. And Collosus is a on a verge of being a siege unit with its 9 attack range.
Its attack pattern could also be changed. This is just an example, there could be (or rather are) better ideas, but here is mine - Collosus targets a unit and hits it with a laser beam that lasts 2 seconds. The unit doesn't suffer damage from the Collosus. Instead, Collosus "targets" the ground underneath the targeted unit and burns it, leaving a "path of fire" which is what is actually dealing damage. Plus, the damage of the "fire" doesn't stack. This way, you need to give your Collosi different units to target, otherwise the damage will be wasted, as the "path of fire" would not stack. Well, maybe I'm not the best at describing, but you should get the idea.
From Liquipedia, on cut features of SC2: "The Reaver was fully replaced by the Colossus because the Colossus required the same tech but was superior in mobility, hitpoints and needed less micro to handle.". Seriously? And now, in LotV, we have a Disruptor that doesn't even attack on its own and its nothing but micro. It only shows how Blizzad Starcraft 2 team have no idea what to do. Shame, as we could have a Reaver since early WoL.
tl:dr
Slower movement, longer attack cooldown but higher damage, this is what I would like to see from dev team to consider for the Collosus. Maybe some experimentation with how it attacks to make it more interesting and microable.


Lurker: its inability to control Bio, but countering Protoss ground
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Lurker has suffered from Hydralisk being moved to tier 2 - being 2.5 (or 2.5-2.9 lol) unit, it cannot be the same as the BW Lurker. So, because it comes so late (Hydralisk Den build time, Lurker Den build time), it needs better stats. Lets compare two units:
- 125/125 vs 150/150 cost
- 2 vs 3 supply
- 125 vs 200 HP
- 20 vs 20+10 armored damage
- 6 vs 9 range
- 1.54 vs 2 attack cooldown
- 1.2 vs 1.05 worker speed
Lurker became a little more expensive, but supply efficiency dropped a lot. It gained a lot of range, but slower movement speed, a lot more HP and a little more damage. Lets review the changes.
As long as we have a 100/50 Hydralisk in the game, the cost is appropriate for the unit - Lurker comes later, it needs to be stronger to fight effectively against stronger units that are already on the field. 25 more gas and 25 more minerals is good to warrant a little buff here and there to the unit.
If Lurker is to be a defensive unit, its supply cannot be so high. You need at least 2 Lurkers at each base to give it some degree of defense against the harass, as 1 is not enough, assuming Zerg has 3-4 bases, that means that a supply of anywhere between 9-24 is frozen in just units at home, add a Queen for each Hatchery, and you end up with 15-30 supply in bases. How is Zerg supposed to fight against Protoss and Terran with such low supply left for units (which some of them are, again, supply inefficient)? Having Zerg lose his units once in order to chip away and weaken P/T deathball, before another remax and final battle? Lurkers should cost 2.5 supply, not 3. They should be not cost efficient, but supply efficient, otherwise there will be no Lurkers guarding choke points, as that supply will be crucial for Zerg in direct engagement. Cost increased by 20%, supply should not increase by 50%. With 2.5 supply, that is only 25% increase in supply cost.
Lurker should not be so tanky. If its burrowed and opponent has no detection, Lurkers HP is irrelevant. If opponent attacks into set up Lurkers, he should suffer terrible damage, and be severely damaged or destroyed. If, however, you push with the Lurkers, the slow, long ranged and tanky Lurker is boring. Faster, less tanky Lurker is better as an actual core unit or a support, and is better for the viewership. Repositioning a slow, long range lurker is like repositioning Siege Tanks - slow, hard to prevent on opponent side, constantly pushing but not really attacking. Fast, short range but high burst damage Lurker is more interesting, and can be used as a part of an attack, not just a slow, almost turtlish, push. It brings more drama and more suspense - will the Lurkers be able to get into range (which is always true for 9 range Lurker) before they get killed (which is more likely "no" with 200 HP)? Will the Zerg get a good surround and prevent Terran/Protoss from escaping, or will the Lurkers be focus fired, or maybe Terran/Protoss tries to kite the Zerg until Lurkers are left without support? Or maybe retreat altogether and leave some ground for the Zerg to take?
I would like to suggest some tweaks to the Lurker, here is my balance changes:
- 150/150 cost
- 2.5 supply
Explained before, but here we go again - cost has increased by 20%, so supply should not increase by more then 25%.
- 130 HP, 2 armor
Armor is to help Lurker survive longer with its HP reduction, and HP is drastically reduced to make Lurkers more susceptible to Psionic Storm. Disruptor should not be the only counter to them. Protoss needs some more flexibility, and Templar tech needs some more love anyway.
- 22(+2 or +3) base + 6(+0) light damage
This change helps Lurkers deal with Bio ball in different regard. In BW, a Lurker 2 shots a Marine, in SC2, it 3 shots it. But, with the Medivac heal, the difference can be much more dramatic. Lurkers should be good against the Marines, not Marauders - if Marines are 2 shoted by Lurkers, only Marauders will remain on the battlefield - which are performing worse against Zerglings. Lurkers being gas intensive will require support consisting mostly of Zerglings, which die to Marines, but counter Marauders. Therefore, interesting interaction is created - Lurker>Marine>Zergling>Marauder>Lurker. Lurkers that have "+vs armor bonus damage" don't deal good with Marines, but still don't deal very well with Marauders either - both MM still deal damage and kills Zerg force, while Lurkers chip away slowly both Marines and Marauders, not being efficient vs either.
Same thing happens with the Protoss - +light damage disposes of Zealots quickly, and Zerglings have much better rates of survival, countering Stalkers. It may force Collosus response to combat Zerglings and outrange Lurkers (more about it in a second), or High Templar to do the same job (HT has an advantage of not requiring detection to kill off Lurkers - Storm works even without it). This change of bonus damage from armored to light brings back some more melee oriented composition to the Zerg arsenal, which is what I believe lacks in Starcraft 2.
- 6-7 target range with 7-8 range spines length
It helps the Protoss, vastly increasing Stalkers cost effectiveness against the Lurker. It also helps Marauders, and changes Lurkers so they don't outrage base defenses. Lurker being a siege unit is just bad - it's better if it becomes a more micro intensive/micro forcing unit. Spines can hit a unit standing behind Lurkers target on the verge of its max targeting range - it means that while Lurker spines travel further, Lurker cannot by itself attack a unit at its full range, but can if it is hit by another unit targeted by the Lurker. It brings another dimension to Lurker attack. Reduction of range is a part of another change, which is...
- speed changed from 2.95 to 3.37
It improves vastly the offensive capabilities of a Lurker, which should lead to more engagements with it. If you have a slow, long range unit, you won't want to attack, you will slowly reposition it or turtle with it. Modifying range and speed changes the unit's role a lot.
- frienzied status (not sure about this one actually)
It would suck if Lurker/Ling vs Bio interaction was disrupted by couple of Marauders. With range and damage against them reduced, Marauders should not have an extra hand against Lurkers. Alternatively, Lurkers can gain a new passive ability, preventing movement altering abilities/spells from affecting it.
One of the biggest changes from Brood War to SC2 in ZvT is definately the introduction of Medivac, which ensures that Terran can always transport his army. Without Scourges to control the air with its almost instantaneous damage, no matter how strong or weak the Lurker is, Terran can and will ignore them, vastly decreasing Lurkers defender advantage. This is why I believe Lurkers should come out much sooner, or some form of kamikaze anti-air should be introduced, which I don't believe Blizzard wants. Hydralisk Den could be moved to Hatchery tech, and Hydralisk base speed and/or range could be nerfed even more, with Hydralisk Muscular Augments buffed to compensate for the difference. Muscular Augments could also stay in the Lair tech, to prevent the 100/50 Hydralisk from becoming too strong in the early game, while keeping Hydralisk intact once Lair is reached. This way, Hydralisk Den could be made before Lair, and Lurker Den could be made so much sooner.
I also believe Lurker Den should go away to make room for Lurker Aspect upgrade. If you think about how long does it take to build Hydralisk Den and later morph it to Lurker Den, and think about how easy it is for other player to drop and snipe it, Lurker tech becomes a very risky tech patch. With Lurker Aspect upgrade however, after it has been researched, sniping Hydralisk Den would not hurt so much, as it could be rebuild quicker then Lurker Den.
tl:dr
Lurker needs to be faster with less range, as it will increase microability of a unit by a lot and force players to use it more offensively. It will also lower the "Lurker counters Protoss ground" that can be heard over the forums. Lowering supply cost to 2.5 (or maybe even 2) will make Lurkers better at defending. Some way of giving the player the opportunity for earlier Lurkers should be in place, it is not the timing of the Lurkers that is the problem, but their current range and health.


Free units and Brood Lord
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Brood Lord, Swarm Host, Infestor - all suffering from the same design, which is free unit spawning. Free unit spawners have a one nasty issue - they are either so weak that they are underused or completely usless in higher level play, or so strong that they either dominate everything else, as the "fine balance line" being so thin, it is almost impossible to get it right. Swarm Host and Infestor's Infested Terran used to be really powerfull, and both units used to be massed. Free Unit Spawners (FUS) have to be massed to reach the ciritical point, otherwise they are not viable as a part of a composition. You don't see a single Swarm Host tagging along a Roach/Hydra composition, or Ling/Bane/Muta composition when building only one or just a few of them was part of the plan, and not some leftovers from previous battle. I remember first introduction of a Swarm Host, the first in-game video, of a couple of Swarm Hosts (I think 3-4) spawning Locusts to attack a Bunker with Marines and a Siege Tank behind it. If there was lower count of Swarm Hosts, Locusts would die without dealing any significant damage to the Terran Bunker, but, because a critical mass for that encounter was reached, Locusts destroyed the Bunker, and Marines/Tank in one or two following spawns. You have to reach critical mass, otherwise FUS are useless. Trying to reach critical mass leads to turtling and very defensive play, which I don't think many members of the community like and want to see/play against.
Brood Lord (BL) suffers from the same design issue. First, it was Infestor, now, we have a "Brood Lord/Viper OP" cry. Maybe it's not the Viper that is the problem, maybe it's the Brood Lord itself.
Morphing one or two BLs is not enough to capitalize on them - there is simply not enough Broodlings, which block the movement and mess with the opponents units AI. When you use Brood Lords, you use 5+ of them, when the critical mass is reached. No matter what spellcaster you use with the BL, at some point nerfs will come, and most likely, nerfs to the spellcaster. But as a FUS, the BL is the problem, not the caster that is paired with it.
I propose a solution to the problem, not a nerf, but a change to the BL from a FUS based unit, to a DPS one.
- Sight decreased to its range
- Damage increased to 30 (+3) from 20 (+2)
- Cost of morph decreased by 50 each (150/150 -> 100/100), bringing total Brood Lord cost from 300/250 to 250/200
- Supply down to 3 from 4
- Cooldown reduced from 1.79 to 1.5
- Armor up to 2 from 1
- Health down from 225 to 180
- Broodlings are not spawned with each attack, instead, a biological unit killed by a BL spawns Broodlings, 1 per each supply of a killed unit (killing Marauder spawns 2 Broodlings, killing a Marine only 1), or just spawning 1-2 Broodlings for each unit killed.
FUS role of a unit is drastically decreased, making BL rely more on its long range and higher DPS (from 8 DPS to 20 with above changes). Lower cost is balanced around lack of FUS, which makes BL so strong. Lower supply allows Zerg to have the supply used for other units, helping to preserve the Swarmy feel of a Zerg race. Cost reduced to correspond better with reduced supply. Higher armor helps it against anti-air splash and enduring Marine fire (a slow, 250/200 unit should not die easily), while lower health makes it more vulnerable to spell damage.
tl:dr
Any unit that spawns other units for free is going to be horribly hard to balance, why not just scrap the idea altogether, as it is quite proven not to work, and look for supply reductions instead of a Free Unit Spawners to make Zerg feel "swarmy".


Scouting readability, not reliability
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Scouting should not be guaranteed. It might be easy to get the first worker into opponents base when scouting the right position first, but that early worker can always be killed. It should be hard to scout afterwards. Scouting should require some degree of skill to it. A Reaper coming early into a base after first tech buildings are planted is bad for the game. A hallucination that is so easily controlled is also bad for the game. "Yeah, so how are we supposed to scout what our opponent is doing?". Here I would like to discuss something I haven't seen elswhere (or maybe I haven't tried looking hard enough) - scouting in SC2 is too easy and to reliable. You can build a Reaper or two and see everything what your opponent is doing. You can hallucinate a Phoenix and do the same. You can spawn a Changeling and do the same thing. You can see everything what your opponent is doing if you try hard enough. So how come so many people die to cheese and all-in tactics?
Because Starcraft 2 scouting is hard to read. Let me give you an example on Terran 1/1/1 opening variations. We are not interested if its expand first or not, only focusing on the tech path that Terran chooses. So, with 1/1/1 build, if you come into Terrans base, and see Rax, Factory and Starport starting or just finished, and your scout (Overlord/Overseer/hallucination/Reaper etc.) gets killed, you are left with these possibilities in your mind:
- a Siege Tank drop, aka flying Tank
- a Hellion opening/drop
- a Hellbat drop
- a Banshee harass
- a Liberator harass
- a Bio+Liberator
- Widow Mine drop
- 4M
- 3M
- some other strategy
The problem is, scouting has nothing to do with knowing what is going to hit your base in a minute or two. Yes, once you reach certain point in your gaming career, you acquire knowledge on opponents builds and timings (such as, you know that it is *this* build because the Techlab was build 5-10 seconds later then in *that* build), you can profit from seeing what buildings are in your opponents base, alright, I get that. But in lower leagues, it is still a gamble, as those openings force you to respond in different ways and you will fail miserably if you don't prepare accordingly, but at the same time overreacting will also cost you a game.
If you take Protoss for example, things become easier:
- Collosus, Disruptor and Immortal require different counters, but Collosus and Disruptor also requires Robotics Bay
- Pheonix and Void Ray don't require vastly different counters, only Oracle can be problematic
- the problem however arises when any tech building is proxied on the map, but this doesn't make it hard to read, but hard to scout
In comparison, Zerg is easy to read, as almost every unit has its own building requirement.
Protoss is relatively easy, but because of different use of Chronoboost, the timing of an attack can be impossible to tell. This means that you will be in slight disadvantage if you prepare for an attack 1 minute too early, as you could spend the investement on quicker economy/tech. It also means you can die easily if you underestimate the Chronoboost and the attack comes 20 earlier then you thought.
Terran is very hard to read, and sometimes it can be near impossible to read Terran who denies you scouting, as for example countering a Liberator (or Banshee) and a Siege Tank requires you to build completely different units, while both builds can look very similiar at first.
I will allow myself another comparison to Brood War - in BW, there was a Machine Shop and Control Tower, both functioning like a Techlab, but they could not be exchanged by lifting and landing. Should we bring them back, we will lose something that defined the Terran in SC2. Bringing back an Academy would help to differenate Bio and Mech/Starport openings, narrowing the possible cheese and helping Terran builds being easier to read. But other then that, I have no other ideas at the current time to help with this issue.
tl:dr
Just like any book writer will tell you, "show, not tell" is the way to go. "Showing" is just an act of looking at opponents base at knowing what is coming. "Telling" is giving you reliable ways so you can scout your opponents base every 10 seconds if you want. The build orders should be easy to read and distinquish, not convulted. Don't give us more Reapers and easily accessible Hallucinations. Don't give us dedicated scouting tools. Instead, make it so that getting into opponents base in the first place is the hard part, but once you are there, you know exactly what is going on.


On Macro Boosters
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You would have thought that everything has been already said about the Macro Boosters (Mule, Chronoboost, Inject). I firmly believe Macro Boosters (MB) should have no place in Starcraft 2. I fully agree with what has been said by w3jjjj in his good analysis: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/493457-7-deadly-sins-of-macro-boosters
Also, we can see in this poll how much people wanted to remove MB, or at least test it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/494703-poll-macro-booster-community-feedback
Without MB, the job of balancing the game is also much easier, and I hope I don't need to explain why. Blizzard could test removal of all MB somewhere in the beggining of the Beta, and by now we would probably have an already finished product, with a small need of polish here and there. Instead, time was wasted for small balance patches, a kind which you would expect not in Beta, but in already released product.
People complained that without MB, Terran could not keep up with other races. This could be because Terran didn't adapt properly, but contributing factor is also Terran unit costs balanced with increased mineral income in mind. Also, Bio compositions become much weaker - not only because there is not enough minerals for the Marines/Marauders, but because unlike in Brood War, Terran who goes Bio needs to mine gas very early to be able to produce gas expensive Starport and Medivacs. It forces Terran to mine gas when the core of his army is mineral intensive, not gas intensive. Without additional unit, like a simple Medic, Mules are absolutely crucial for the Terran. It could be implemented by Blizzard in a easy way - Medics require Academy (new building, houses upgrades for the medic like good old Restoration), can be Reactored with an upgrade from the Academy (like in WoL campaign), and can be combined with a Dropship, creating the Medivac. Easy to explain in the lore, also should be relatively easy to implement. This way Terran Bio would be fixed. What about the Mech? Some cost reductions here and there could be necessary, or simply buffs like the ones I wrote earlier in my Mech analysis.
What about the Protoss? Without the Chronoboost, P does not need any immediate buffs or nerfs - it needs build time adjustments, that's all. You could even steal them from Brood War without too many imbalances. P would be alright with some delicate number tweaking, but one thing is for sure - most technologies will definately need a research time reduction.
And Zerg? I read it a lot on the forums, that Zerg without the Inject does not need to go back to his base as often as Protoss or Terran, that Zerg macro becomes way too easy. On the contrary. What Zerg would need, is to keep maximum larvae per Hatch to 3. With such low larvae stacking and production without the Queen, Zerg macro becomes easier mechanically, but much harder when it comes to decision making. The Drone vs Units becomes much more difficult for players to manage, bringing another dimension to Zerg's macro. Losing a Drone when morphing a building hurts the Zerg more. Back in WoL beta, when I first saw the Queen and Inject Larva, I instantly knew something beautiful has been taken away from the Zerg. The ability to differenate a good Zerg from the bad ones, by how the larvae is spent. Zerg may not need to come back to his base like P or T to build Pylons/Depos, but same was true for BW Zerg. P and T had to coma back to their base to produce units, while Zerg could fit most of his production on 5-0 hotkeys up to an early late game. But, Larvae being another resource to manage brings some more uniqueness to the game, and more difficulty based not on speed alone, but thinking and game sense, which differenated Zerg macro from that of Protoss and Terran.
tl:dr
Macro Boosters inflated some of the problems with balance. I already wrote a bit about the Chronoboost and its gimmicky nature which gimps Protoss in standard play. Larva Inject removes the unique characteristic that exists in Brood War Zerg. Mule leads to imbalances in the very late game (Blizzard fixed it with cast range, then reverted it), but other then that it has no design issues. Without Macro Boosters (way back, like first month of the Beta) game would be in much better state now. There are also other reasons for removing MB, but I won't waste any more time on this. Other people have already said enough on this matter.


Zerg scouting with 12 worker start
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Yes... back in HotS, Overlord was sent out around a minute earlier compared to LotV (someone could correct me on exact timing, but this is not that important). Zerg cannot scout the inside of an enemy base without a flying unit. If Overlords scout a minute later then in HotS, and waiting for Spire can end up in dying to cheese/all-in, what other solutions do we have? Sending a starting drone will not help against a wall-in, Marine or a Cannon in the front. I just talked about scout readability, but in this case scouting itself becomes very hard. By the time Overlord reaches enemy base, there will be more Marines/Stalkers/Sentries to kill it then what would be waiting for it in HotS. Here are two suggestions to help Zerg scouting:
- Starting Overlord gains a +100% speed increase at the start of the game, lasting 10-20 seconds. First spawned Overlord gains same boost for half the duration of the starting Overlord (15 second and 7.5 second for example). Rest of the Overlords function same as they used to. This solution have appeared on Teamliquid before.
- Increase unupgraded Overlord speed by some degree (like 20-30%)
tl:dr
12 worker start and its impact on Overlord scouting is one of the things that cannot be balanced without such a band-aid, and nobody will change Blizzard's mind to try starting with 8 or 9 workers instead of 12. But, something should be done.


Mistakes should be punished
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Those are just a couple of things that I can think of on top of my head. Thing is, strategic and tactical mistakes should be punishable.
If you send Medivac to a defended expansion, or if you didn't hide it well enough and your opponent spots it, and you still want to try dropping, you should be punished for rushing things. If you make a mistake like that, your opponent should be rewarded with an opportunity to repel or snipe the drop. It is your job to make sure you avoid being spotted with the drop and not dropping on defended positions.
If you are too greedy and want to pick off some tech building, some more workers, or something else in opponents base, and you allow your Mutalisks to suffer heavy damage, you should be punished by slow regeneration rate. You should be punished if you are bad at harassing and still attempting to do it. It is your job to look after Mutalisks and not take engagements that your force cannot handle.
If you do a bad job baby-sitting your units, you should not be able to pick them up from 7 range. If your opponent tries to focus fire your Warp Prism and you have to retreat it behind your force, your opponent should be rewarded by you not being able to use Warp Prism without the risk of losing it. It is your job to look after your Warp Prism and retreat it and the units that you want to save.
If you put a Tank line in a position where they can be easily surrounded and destroyed, you should not be able to save them. Your opponent should be rewarded by getting to them and damaging them in the first place (which would be hard if Blizzard actually buffed Tank damage). It is your job to anticipate enemy's army movement and spread your Tanks accordingly.
If you build a Nydus right in front of your opponents base so he can see it, he should be able to snipe it with ease and cost you resources. It is your job to keep the Nydus from being scouted.
If you go for a cheesy opening, should your opponent scout you and prepare, you should be in disadvantage. He should be rewarded for good job at scouting. It is your job to hide your build and deny scouting.

List could probably go on and on. There has to be a risk for any action that can put you in advantageous position. 7 pick up range on Warp Prism removes this risk, same as Medivac boost, Nydus Invulnerability, Sieged Tank pick up, Mutalisk high regen/speed. Cheese openings that don't put you behind in tech or economy (or both) remove this risk as well. Harass openings should rely on doing actual damage or aquiring map control - if you don't deal any damage, you should be behind, and you should be the one that has to work harder to win the game, if your harass fails.
To put it into something easy to understand: If you have a Sentry on top of the ramp, and Terran walks his Marines into your base, you should not be able to rewind the time by 2 seconds (because you were busy with something else like macro) and put the Force Field up. It was your mistake because you didn't keep an eye on the mini-map or didn't put more units to block the path. Simple as that.
tl:dr
Every action needs a reaction. Abilities and ways of saving yourself without giving your opponent a chance to capitalize on your mistake should not be in a competitive game like Starcraft 2. You should be made to work harder to correct any mistakes that you've done, and your opponent needs to have an option of taking advantage of the situation as well.


Unit pathing and lowering of skill ceiling.
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In SC2 we have a matchup (actually 2, if we count mirror as well) in which melee vs melee fights take place. ZvP or PvZ, where Zealots battle it out against Zerglings. Improvements in pathing have drastically lowered the skill ceiling of this interaction. In Zealot vs Zergling fight, you want your Zerglings to spread out, surround and flank the Zealots while making it so that all of your Lings attack the Zealots at the same time. You do that because Zealot will die to 4 Lings if they attack it all the the same time, but single Zealot can kill much higher number of Zerglings if they fight him one by one. That is why attacking all at the same time is important, and to achieve that, you attack from different sides to surround Zealots as quickly as possible, not wasting any DPS.
In case of Zealot, the opposite is true. You want to minimize surface area, meaning that you want to keep your Zealots together, as close as possible. You may want to retreat into a corner, so that your Zealots are against a wall, reducing the surface area even more. You also want to attack Lings in tight formation, but if the number of Lings for you to win in head on engagement is too big, and you have nowhere to retreat, you may want to move away from Zerglings, attack them, try to move away again, attack, and so on and so on, basically stutter-stepping, or kiting. That prevents your Zealots from being surrounded, which lets you to take on higher numbers of Zerglings.
In Brood War, the skill floor for Zealot vs Zergling is low. It all comes down to A-Move one ball into another. Anyone can do it. However, the skill ceiling is very high, because of the less efficient pathing system. It is harder to surround the Zealot ball, it is harder to time it so all the Zerglings attack at the same time. Getting Zerglings to move is easy, getting them to move how you would like them to is another league, as there is a high degree of skill involved in it. When it comes to Zealots, they don't just clump, and their surface area is bigger - you need to manually bring them together to close up any holes that increase the surface area and allow Zerglings to go inside and attack from yet another angle. This also requires a high amount of APM and skill. For both Zergling and Zealot control, the skill ceiling is very high, and this keeps true to other melee units, Archons and workers included. Skill floor, however, is still relatively low - you only need to attack move, but to increase your unit efficiency, you need to give them additional commands. And with that, you can accomplish almost impossible feats, like 30 lings killing 10 Zealots (without Adrenal Glands upgrade) or 2 Zealots winning against 8-10 Lings and not even one of them dying.
However, in Starcraft 2, the skill ceiling is much lower. Zealots clump naturally, while Zerglings don't get freaked out by friendly units on their way that stop to attack, almost automatically surrounding the enemy. Both Zergling and Zealot micro is simplified, making the interaction less about the skill, and more about the numbers. The difference between a average Gold and average Diamond player microing those units is smaller then if average Gold and average Diamond player duked it out in hypotethical SC2 with Brood War pathing.
The skill ceiling has been lowered, and the skill gap between good and bad player has closed a bit. You don't have to micro your Zerglings, because they surround almost automatically. You don't have to micro Zealots, because they clump automatically. Even worse, Zealot Charge takes even greater portion of control away from the player. This is not what Brood War is about. Microing melee units became something that the game engine almost does for you, and it created the syndrom of "6 pool OP", "Ling rush OP" or "Proxy Zealot OP" way back in WoL, mostly heard from Bronze to Silver league players. It's not that Zerglings or Zealot rushes are OP by themselves - they are however, if the engine helps a rushing Bronze player to micro, but doesn't help the other Bronze player who has to defend with 1 or 2 Marines and a couple of SCVs.
As the game progresses, Zerglings and Zealots become less and less effective. This is because even with the helping hand of the engine, melee units cannot do much against a ball of clumped ranged units. there is simply not enough of a surface area for melee units to join in the fight and deal damage. In Brood War, units didn't clump as much, and melee units were viable way into the late game. In fact, both Zealots and Zerglings were used not only to tank first volleys of fire, but to deal great amounts of damage if microed correctly.
For Zealot, his damage dealing ability was based on his survivability - based on his high HP, it is reasonable to think that increase in HP will increase damage that Zealot is able to deal before it dies. For some reason, Zealot in SC2 lost 10 HP and gained some DPS by lower attack cooldown.
For Zergling, its damage dealing ability was based on speed and fast attack speed - quickly closing the distance and attacking very fast, Zergling was able to deal massive damage despite its low HP, being weak to AoE damage. Because of its almost automatic surround in SC2, Zergling has lost some of its attack speed compared to its Brood War counterpart. Even with the Adrenal Gland upgrade, it is not enough to help Zergling become more of a Core unit, as the unit clumping results in smaller surface area of targets. That's when we see Zerglings running around the Terran ball like headless chickens looking for a place to attack, and dying to Marine fire who are just standing there being healed by the Medivac.
As we speak about the Zealot Charge, it is worth noting that it breaks another dimension - Zergling dying to two Zealot attacks if Protoss attack upgrade > Zerg carapace upgrade, and 3 if otherwise. Now, as long as there is Charge, Zealot will always 2 shot a Zergling. Terrible, terrible damage, and upgrades not important anymore. I wish Blizzard gave Zealot his 10 HP back. I wish Blizzard removed Charge and gave us Zealot Speed upgrade. I wish Blizzard either buffed Zergling attack speed, or gave us 50/50 or 100/100 upgrade in Lair, increasing their attack speed by 20%, and later at Hive tech, with Adrenal Glands that would increase attack speed to 50% of base attack speed (so up by 10%). I wish pathing wasn't so efficient, because when I watch a pro vs pro Ling Bling ZvZ, I don't know how much of the unit movement can be attributed to the engine, and how much to indivudual players skill. This, for me, dulls any excitement I could have, because suddenly, pro vs pro doesn't look that much more different then random Master or Diamond players game.
Same can be said about in ranged vs ranged unit discussion, but I chose to concentrate on melee aspect of the game.

Back in Brood War, micro is about moving your units and controlling them each step of the way to increase their efficiency. Dodging Lurker spines with Marines, Vulture Patrol micro, Mutalisk stacking and Patrol/Hold micro, getting better spread against powerful splash attacks, getting better concaves, surrounding units with Zerglings, kiting, running Zealots past the Lurkers and many more. Nowadays, classic micro is almost only seen in Marine vs Baneling spread, vs Disruptor splitting, and kiting - that's it, there is no other type of micro that requires your near constant attention. Movement as micro has almost dissapeared thanks to the "improved pathing and AI". Fluid unit movement and modern engine left us with units that do not benefit from movement micro, you almost always want to keep them in default, deathball formation to increase your DPS. In Brood War, however, micro was not about actions which you didn't have to do to play the game in intended way (simply by a-moving), but what you could do to increase the efficiency of your units by a large degree by simple and easy to understand actions of move/hold/attack move and patrol move. Micro was something that not everyone could perform, differenating the best from the simple "good" players. It was exciting to see a pro player do things no ordinary ladder player could do. This created the moments that left the audience in awe. Now, in SC2, the "micro" is just something that you have to do, in order to play the game how the designers have intended us to play.
To give us the replacement of true micro, Starcraft 2 has moved from its movement based micro to a more Warcraft 3 based micro. Abilities, activated and passive, and lots and lots of them. Core units have activated and passive abilities (Ravager, Stalker, Phoenix, Marauder, Medivac, Adept, Cyclone, Disruptor, Oracle attack, Sentry Guardian Shield, old Immortal Ability, Void Ray attack bonus and many more) that you are required to use to play the game properly. You have to activate them and use them, giving you impression of microing without the actual micro.
Activating an ability or spamming a spell is only a mechanical challenge (keyboard speed), even in highest levels of play. Compared to Brood War and its inefficient pathing and lack of Smart Cast, you did not only have to be fast keyboard typist. Mouse precision mattered because you had to click on every caster individually to cast a single spell, and casting spells in quick succesion was impressive in itself, and Korean girls screamed in appreciation. Also, because units didn't move so fluidly, you had to predict and give commands to groups of units throughout the engagement - experience and "knowledge" of unit movement mattered. This gave the pros more room to differenate between them and be recognized by their style of play.

Unit clumping is also the main reason why fights end so quickly - units fit in smaller area, which greatly increases DPS. In Brood War, a part of your army will be behind the main force, or sometimes your army may be spread out across half the map - in that situation, it is obvious that not all of the units will attack at once, therefore, initial DPS will be lower, and it increases as the rest of your units join the fight. This is something that is not seen in SC2 - your army is almost always gathered in a silly looking, unnatural clump, or simply, a Deathball. I don't really want to talk about the subject of Deathballing, as there have been many threads about it, and even here, however briefly, the crucial point on why the Deathball is the way it is has been explained.
tl:dr
With the improved pathing, the careful balance has been broken. Melee units became too strong in the early game and required gentle nerfs, while at the same time they became not strong enough in the late game to compete with the ranged units. The skills that make difference between Bronze and Gold/Platinum have vanished, and even on the other side of the spectrum, melee unit control have taken a blow.


Multiple Building/Unit Selection and lowering of skill ceiling
+ Show Spoiler +

Let me tell you what Brood War is about. Brood War is about spending your limited resource of attention and speed, or focus, however you want to call it. You can either spend it on macro, or micro. Multitasking is nothing different but splitting your attention between the two, so if you want, you can split it three ways, it doesn't matter. What matters is, in Brood War there is a division between how many things need to be done, and how many can you do. Player can spend time focusing only on couple of them at the time - building units from your base has to be done by physically looking at it and selecting buildings one by one, and you cannot micro at the same time. In SC2 however, it can be done with a few keystrokes (with exception of Protoss who still has to come back to his base most of the time to produce units). The beauty of Brood War is that you could theoretically do 5 things at the time, but had the time to only do 2 of them.
You have to:
- make workers
- send previously produced workers to mine
- create supply and place production/tech buildings (or simply building stuff)
- train units
- micro and army management
With MBS and automining in SC2, you have 4 things to do and time to do 2.5-3. There is less choice.
This closes the skill gap between players of different levels. You don't have to "be" in your base to do macro related stuff, with the exception of building construction. This also prevents players from developing unique playstyles, where some players would focus more on micro, some more on macro, and others try to strike the balance between them - in SC2, it is easy to make units while you watch your army.
Ultimately, in Brood War, you had to make a decision on what is more important to you - microing your units right this moment in order to gain some advantage, like secure an expansion, or deny opponents expansion, or set up/break a contain, or is it more important to prevent that drop that you spotted from happening, or is it more important to train new units, or check the progress on an upgrade, or something else completely. You could not do everything in heat of the moment, you had to choose.
Knowing that even a progamer doesn't watch his army at all time changes our perception of things.
- In SC2, if you didn't watch your army and it died to Banelings/Disruptor/Widow Mine/whatever, you are being called sloppy, and you just have made a game ending mistake. The time you just spent on macro at home has cost you a game, because in normal situation, you should be watching your army and doing macro at the same time.
- In Brood War, because of naturally spread out armies, game ending damage almost didn't happen in Brood War, and smaller parts of army might have been sacrificed because the player choose to train 5 Tanks 2 Vultures and 3 Goliaths, instead of microing 4 Goliaths on the field. Maybe the choice was between securing an expansion and losing 20 supply of units - but there was always a choice and room for a better (not only faster, but also more strategical) player to shine.

Multiple Building Selection (MBS) and Unlimited Unit Selection (UUS) is, considered by some, as an improvement over Single Building Selection (SBS) and Limited Unit Selection (LUS). The reason for that is because people say that it removes the artificial limitations of the interface and brings the game to todays standards. People say that with easier to use interface, and easier macro, people can focus more on other aspects of the game. There are however problems with this argument. Strategy will be in the game regardless whever macro is easy or hard. Easy macro does not help better strategist to beat a player with better mechanical skill. It helps a better strategist to beat an otherwise better mechanical player that is without or with bad strategy. What we have to remember is that more focus or more time to strategize does not mean that your strategy will be better - it is more likely (almost guaranteed) that a pro player can think about strategy while performing his normal macro cycle without breaking a sweat. Lowering the mechanical skill ceiling of macro does not mean that the strategies will be better.
Less time spent on macro also does not mean that the extra time will be spent on micro. If by micro, we define the unit movement, spellcasting etc. during the battle, then no, easier macro will not make games more micro intensive. There will be more time to position units before the battle. There will be extra time to reinforce before the battle. But during the battle there will be almost the same amount of micro dispalyed, as during the most intensive micro manouvers, even pro will not macro. And those less intensive micro? The less intensive micro is not as impressive, so more of it will not suddenly make the fights much more exciting to viewers.
What we have to remember, is that Starcraft 2 and Brood War are both RTS games, not TBS (turn based strategy games). In TBS games, more "noob-friendly" interface is more welcome. Interface that helps you perform the "macro in TBS" is always a good addition. However, dumbing down the interface in RTS games by making macro easier can only result in said game becoming more shallow and less interesting. RTS is about real time - about speed, clicking and typing speed included. Fast clicking and typing is to RTS as what aiming is to FPS game - both genres utilize strategy, which is important in both, and separetes the experienced (or talented) players from the noobs. Speed is to RTS what aiming is to FPS - it seperates the players who dedicate time to achieve certain level of skill from the casuals with less skill. It also gives a faster player a way to shine in his own right - but there have to be ways for him to spent this speed/APM in an effective way. With MBS, a "super fast" pro will not have a much better macro then a simply "fast" pro. There is less room for players to show off their skill, therefore, the skill ceiling is lowered.
Someone could argue that even with the MBS, pros macro is not perfect. But it is not far away from it - a top GM player will not be far behind from a top SC2 pro in terms of macro alone. And even in Brood War, there were games when pro macroed almost perfectly, and most likely they always do macro perfectly up to 40 or 50 supply, and on some occasions, games are decided before that. Anyway, in Brood War and its SBS, even a B teamer could not match an A teamer level of macro. Macro was harder, but because of that, games were less random. Even if a top pro made a strategical mistake, he could make up for it with his superior speed/mechanics and win against a less skilled player. Build order loses were less common because of that. Hell, even in pro games a 12 hatch could win against 9 pool thanks to better micro/macro and decision making. That is how bonjwa and other high profile celebrities were born. Without the legendary celebrities, no sport (or e-Sport) can survive.

Once Blizzard decided to improve the UI (automining, MBS etc.), they knew they need to give players something else to manage in their base. Problem is, if that additional action does not benefit you, you will not do it. Hence we ended up with extra larva, extra minerals, extra production/research boost. It breakes the balance of economy vs technology, but this is another topic. It gave us something else to do - but most people want Macro Boosters gone. So what can be added to macro, without actually adding anything to production, economy or technology? There is no such thing, unless you make stupid decision and, for example, make supply buildings/Overlords half price, half size, half HP, and half supply. Why not simply remove all the bullshit altogether and get rid of the Multiple Building Selection?
Adding anything to the macro (to compensate for MBS) with a benefit for added thing brings volatility to the game. We would all be better off without MBS altogether.

UUS is also limiting the skill ceiling and narrows the skill gap between players. It also has a negative impact on balance and turtling.
Think about it for a second - with LUS, you won't see 30-40 Mutalisks flying around one shotting all anti-air. When Jaedong controlled 2 groups of Mutalisks in one of his games in Brood War on Blue Storm, that was considered pimp and became the stuff of legends. Now, players just group as many units as they can, and this level of control will never be showcased again, because it is simply not needed anymore.
Deathballing can also be blamed on UUS to a certain degree. If you had to select a maximum of 5 units, making a 200/200 army suddenly would not sound so cool, right? Imagine the terror of moving such an army with a limit of 5 units - this in itself is discouraging turtling. With 12 unit selection limit in Brood War, ZvX are full of action, even more in TvZ where Terran also is penalized for massing high numbers of units (penalized, as in requiring a lot more attention to control high amounts of units). Unit limit promotes action by itself, be it in Bronze or Masters league. You can still group units in hotkeys and send them to fight, but even then they arrive more in waves then in one massive blob.
Even the developers of Warcraft 1 knew what interface changes meant for the game. I shall quote Patrick Wyatt, long time designer for Blizzard: "Later in the development process, and after many design arguments between team-members, we decided to allow players to select only four units at a time based on the idea that users would be required to pay attention to their tactical deployments rather than simply gathering a mob and sending them into the fray all at once. We later increased this number to nine in Warcraft II."
He was on the ball Blizzard, while your current team doesn't even know where the ball is.
tl:dr
This time there will not be tl:dr, as the design choices in question cannot be simply summarised in 2 sentences.


Closing remarks
+ Show Spoiler +

By no means I'm saying that Blizzard needs to remove MBS, Marco Boosters and provide limit unit selection and different pathing - after 5 years, it is way too late for that. But with such changes, and many others, Blizzard have alienated the hardcore community. It's loyal customers since Brood War. Catering to casuals and dumbing down the the game is not the way to go - RTS, by definition, is not a genre for casual play. You have to dedicate time to be any good at it. Casual players will leave regardless, and it is only the hardcore playerbase that will stay for longer. Casuals might be interested in the campaign - which is a whole other story, but let me tell you this: if Blizzard released at least 3-5 missions for each race in each expansion, and properly introduced players to basic build orders and unit interactions, and if story was actually gripping and full of twists and turns, casual players could stay just to see what happens next. Maybe they would rethink the choice of their main race, if they played different races in the campaign, and in the end, enjoy the game more, and maybe, just maybe, changed from casual players to hardcore gamers.
LotV is even less casual friendly then any previous expansion. Casual players like to play slow - and most people complain about LotV's speed. 12 worker start means no more time to think trough your opening - you have to build first buildings seconds after starting the game. Casual players like to play on fewer bases, preferably on one - which won't work with the "half patches". Game demands that you expand asap. Units reqiure you to activate mindlessly abilities, and casual ca't do that fast enough. The game is frustrating and uninviting to the new players.
If you wanted good sales, you should make the campaign and the story good and worth replaying. Give a proper tutorial for each race. Give us better Arcade system, so casual players could try out something different, or maybe even make some sort of ladder system for the Arcade - you already failed to monetize on the best seller which was DOTA back in Warcraft III, there is no need to do that again. I honestly cannot imagine why there was no proper chat system since WoL - even Diablo 2 and SC1 had it, which made the game so much more social and worth coming to - not only to play, but to play with other people met on the internet. You know, your gaming buddies.
There are quite a few things I have covered in this post - and there could be more if the Beta didn't end so quickly - but I hope that when you make another Warcraft game, you won't change the formula and stay true to the W3 spirit. I hope when, and if, another Starcraft game is made, it builds on top of SC:BW, without trying to reinvent the wheel. If you want your games to stand out from other RTS games, don't change them, let them be unique in their own right.
Starcraft 2 is a good game. But it is not a great game, and that is the problem, as from a company that made those beautiful, fantastic games in the past, we expect only greatness.
Personally, I will still buy the game and play LotV, if only for the campaign. I want to see how the story will end. I advise you to do the same, even if just for the sake of W4 and SC3.
I hope you enjoyed reading this, whoever you are. Hate it or love it, leave some constructive feedback. Thank you.
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
November 01 2015 23:34 GMT
#2
Overall I agree with your topic. SC2 could be so much better, with ideas that have consensus all over the community. But david kim is like Lagarde.
HerrHorst
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany140 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-01 23:59:54
November 01 2015 23:58 GMT
#3
While I think that your post is well written and polite, do we really need another thread like this?
We had similiar discussions a million times before and in the end SC2 will never be as you want it to be.

Blizzard has changed the game in a big way compared to Broodwar and now with the LotV-Beta coming to an end, we can assume they won't go back to the old ways. You can either enjoy SC2 like I and many others do and try to improve it with suggestions that have a realistic chance of beeing implemented or try Starbow/similar mods that try to recreate Broodwar.

I know on TL that's pure Blasphemy but if there ever will be SC3 I hope they build it on the foundation of SC2 because I had way more fun with this game then back in the days with SC:BW.

Also I do agree with your comment on the arcade system it should have been much better right from the beginning.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
November 02 2015 00:15 GMT
#4
TIL there are actually still people complaining about multiple building select
vibeo gane,
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
November 02 2015 00:32 GMT
#5
Agree with most of what you wrote.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 00:49:25
November 02 2015 00:45 GMT
#6
On November 02 2015 09:15 -NegativeZero- wrote:
TIL there are actually still people complaining about multiple building select

yeah that's kinda controversial for BW veterans I guess.. personally I don't really agree with his conclusion about it I even think it would be great to test having MBS and automine in BW, and tbh even "UUS" unlimited unit selection, because this kind of things I think it really scares the slower players a lot, it even maybe makes speed a factor that counterbalances strategy a bit more than it needs to be for them I think, and in the end the better players in a game like BW I don't expect they would put all army in 1 group or anything like that you really want little squads and hotkeys to certain units and an easy way to split and position and flank with groups... but it's just not a bad thing to be able to select all units when you want to I think. I think saving up time from control without affecting the decision making is good because it allows for a little more breathing time for actually taking time to watch some things for a little longer than needed and think of what you want to do.. I would be really curious to have that tested in BW. We still do need the interface @bottom of screen imo to visualize units life/counts and select them sometimes. (especially for shift-clicking for deselecting units, or more rarely control-click)
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
November 02 2015 00:51 GMT
#7
Iagree with about 90% or even more. Very good.
With better proofreading and formatting it would come out a lot better.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 01:02:27
November 02 2015 00:58 GMT
#8
If I would add an important core point to your list is the damage rates of units in general in the game is too high. They attack too fast or too hard and also a lot of them move too easily immediately after attacking. Not only does it lead to the obliteration of armies in few seconds along with lots of AoE, overkill protection, pathing and such things, but also it dumbs down micro (T bio ball firing and moving looks so dumb and binary, for example..) and it makes buildings too fragile or in fact anything that is caught off guard too fragile. Scouting is actually also impacted by this and that makes it harder for your stuff not to be caught off guard leading to a very volatile game that involves too high a luck factor (oops 5 seconds you lost your nexus!!) and too little possibilities of reactivity and actual tactical events unfolding..
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
November 02 2015 01:01 GMT
#9
On November 02 2015 09:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 09:15 -NegativeZero- wrote:
TIL there are actually still people complaining about multiple building select

yeah that's kinda controversial for BW veterans I guess.. personally I don't really agree with his conclusion about it I even think it would be great to test having MBS and automine in BW, and tbh even "UUS" unlimited unit selection, because this kind of things I think it really scares the slower players a lot, it even maybe makes speed a factor that counterbalances strategy a bit more than it needs to be for them I think, and in the end the better players in a game like BW I don't expect they would put all army in 1 group or anything like that you really want little squads and hotkeys to certain units and an easy way to split and position and flank with groups... but it's just not a bad thing to be able to select all units when you want to I think. I think saving up time from control without affecting the decision making is good because it allows for a little more breathing time for actually taking time to watch some things for a little longer than needed and think of what you want to do.. I would be really curious to have that tested in BW. We still do need the interface @bottom of screen imo to visualize units life/counts and select them sometimes. (especially for shift-clicking for deselecting units, or more rarely control-click)

i think unlimited unit selection especially wouldn't have nearly the terrible effect that people think it would have on bw. the biggest hindrance to deathballs wasn't having to use multiple control groups, it was the bad pathing. 1a your whole army and units would still flail around like drunken idiots, in fact it would be worse due to more collisions, and pro players would still want to split their army up.
vibeo gane,
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 18:03:37
November 02 2015 01:04 GMT
#10
On November 02 2015 10:01 -NegativeZero- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 09:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
On November 02 2015 09:15 -NegativeZero- wrote:
TIL there are actually still people complaining about multiple building select

yeah that's kinda controversial for BW veterans I guess.. personally I don't really agree with his conclusion about it I even think it would be great to test having MBS and automine in BW, and tbh even "UUS" unlimited unit selection, because this kind of things I think it really scares the slower players a lot, it even maybe makes speed a factor that counterbalances strategy a bit more than it needs to be for them I think, and in the end the better players in a game like BW I don't expect they would put all army in 1 group or anything like that you really want little squads and hotkeys to certain units and an easy way to split and position and flank with groups... but it's just not a bad thing to be able to select all units when you want to I think. I think saving up time from control without affecting the decision making is good because it allows for a little more breathing time for actually taking time to watch some things for a little longer than needed and think of what you want to do.. I would be really curious to have that tested in BW. We still do need the interface @bottom of screen imo to visualize units life/counts and select them sometimes. (especially for shift-clicking for deselecting units, or more rarely control-click)

i think unlimited unit selection especially wouldn't have nearly the terrible effect that people think it would have on bw. the biggest hindrance to deathballs wasn't having to use multiple control groups, it was the bad pathing. 1a your whole army and units would still flail around like drunken idiots, in fact it would be worse due to more collisions, and pro players would still want to split their army up.

Yeah I agree. But hey also the pathing in BW is not actually bad, there is only a little problem/bug that happens if you try to get too many units to run past a choke, it's easy to get around too by just clicking a few times. There are a few little other things that happen but rather rare it's really not bad, I like the pathing in BW so much more than in SC2. W3's pathing is a good example, it is very similar to BW it has mostly just eliminated the few flaws/bugs. You feel so much more in actual control of your units than SC2. In SC2 it feels like you unleash them and then you better not touch them if you don't have to cause you will mess up their damage distribution lol. Just wanted to say that but yeah I agree with you it is unlikely UUS would have a terrible effect on BW at all, and also MBS imo. I find it kinda obvious/natural but it's been quite controversial somehow. At least it should be TRIED!
GiveMeCake
Profile Joined October 2010
148 Posts
November 02 2015 01:14 GMT
#11
I don't understand why you went through so much time/effort when LotV is done and there won't be any drastic changes... Is this like a fantasy you have or something?
I had a dream I moved to Korea to become a GSL champion. I slept in PC bangs and practiced only vs the PC. I named my self Death and faced Life in the finals. I beat him, but ended up dying as I killed his last building.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16679 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 06:29:22
November 02 2015 01:44 GMT
#12

RTS, by definition, is not a genre for casual play. You have to dedicate time to be any good at it. Casual players will leave regardless, and it is only the hardcore playerbase that will stay for longer. Casuals might be interested in the campaign - which is a whole other story, but let me tell you this: if Blizzard released at least 3-5 missions for each race in each expansion, and properly introduced players to basic build orders and unit interactions, and if story was actually gripping and full of twists and turns, casual players could stay just to see what happens next. Maybe they would rethink the choice of their main race, if they played different races in the campaign, and in the end, enjoy the game more, and maybe, just maybe, changed from casual players to hardcore gamers.


you are trying to assign a discrete value to a continuous variable... "seriousness" is a matter of degree. there are as many levels of seriousness as there are players. your analysis of the player base is an oversimplification.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 01:49:19
November 02 2015 01:48 GMT
#13
I think a lot of more casual or less hardcore players like to play a lot of 3v3 or UMS.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16679 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 01:50:54
November 02 2015 01:50 GMT
#14
i know guys who've been playing 3player versus 3AIs for 5 years.. and 3 of them bought both collector's editions.

i know guys who've been playing Zealot Hockey non-stop from the day it was released.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
November 02 2015 02:39 GMT
#15
I really hope they adress mech play properly.

I was really excited when they announced LotV, but after a while I realized they just don't seem to want to make mech playable, just more strange changes, more bio, tanks still suck, cyclones (wich had so much potential) dont make sense now.

I really REALLY hope they do, I've hated TvP since WoL design wise and tought I could finally play a nice interesting mech style but nope.

I have to say the prospect of having to mass bio against protoss everygame is enough to make not want to play the game, I really hope they get it right this time.
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
November 02 2015 03:09 GMT
#16
On November 02 2015 11:39 Lexender wrote:
I really hope they adress mech play properly.

I was really excited when they announced LotV, but after a while I realized they just don't seem to want to make mech playable, just more strange changes, more bio, tanks still suck, cyclones (wich had so much potential) dont make sense now.

I really REALLY hope they do, I've hated TvP since WoL design wise and tought I could finally play a nice interesting mech style but nope.

I have to say the prospect of having to mass bio against protoss everygame is enough to make not want to play the game, I really hope they get it right this time.

You don't have to play bio every game. Read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/495925-tlo-on-macro-mechanics.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 03:29:30
November 02 2015 03:14 GMT
#17
On November 02 2015 10:14 GiveMeCake wrote:
I don't understand why you went through so much time/effort when LotV is done and there won't be any drastic changes... Is this like a fantasy you have or something?

This post is important because it's the perfect answer to those ignorant people who say "Don't like it? Don't play it." When we criticize Blizzard's design decisions, it's not because we're just there to talk shit about the game and about Blizzard. I have better things to do with my time. We say these things because we know what potential the game has, and seeing that potential get wasted in light of poor design decisions is heart-wrenching. We're not complaining because we hate the game, we're complaining because we love it, and we're watching it get worse over time, not better. That hurts.

Imagine one of your loved ones, your father, your son, your brother, somebody you care about is in the hands of a professional doctor, surgery falls easily to hand for this analogy. It could even be a female loved one. You expect a surgeon to know what he's doing, and for that person to get better, given the proper treatment and time to recover. You don't expect their condition to get worse, and if it does happen, you're sure going to raise hell with the doctors - they should know better. They are a group of professionals responsible for the care of your loved one. Only in the case of Blizzard and SC2 you don't have unexpected complications like you might get in surgery. Only Blizzard's decision-making. My analogy is generous but still apt.

There's so much I agree about in this OP. Some topics I'm indifferent, but on the whole I agree with most of the general ideas, as well as the analysis of where Blizzard has gone wrong. Hell, even the suggested changes sound well thought-out. The full-bore analyses of things like the strength of air units, and the true damage Macro Boosters do to the game, are things I've had on my mind throughout the LotV beta, as Blizzard completely ignores those very important design rules. There are so many things that could be done to make this game better, but with every chance to make it better Blizzard just seems to make it worse. If Blizzard ran a hospital instead of a game company their collective ass would have been lunched for malpractice years ago.

Seeing a thread such as this is relieving, if nothing else for the knowledge that there are others who wish to articulate this knowledge like I have.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3099 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 04:17:36
November 02 2015 04:16 GMT
#18
I really do appreciate when people put lots of thought and effort into thinking about the game and trying to improve it--but the thing is, just throwing every idea and concern and feeling you have, many of which are essentially unrelated, a lot of which are highly subjective, into one giant post that massively changes the game in fifty different ways is just not that helpful. It's simply too much stuff to ever really promote dialogue and engagement, and too disconnected to be actually constructive. The people who have gotten the game changed (like Lalush and the TL strategy team) have done so because they could clearly highlight and clearly explain particular issues and how to fix them. No matter how intelligent or perceptive you may be, just designing your own personal version of the game is never going to make SC2 better.

There are certainly some good ideas here, though.
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12384 Posts
November 02 2015 05:53 GMT
#19
On November 02 2015 12:14 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 10:14 GiveMeCake wrote:
I don't understand why you went through so much time/effort when LotV is done and there won't be any drastic changes... Is this like a fantasy you have or something?

This post is important because it's the perfect answer to those ignorant people who say "Don't like it? Don't play it." When we criticize Blizzard's design decisions, it's not because we're just there to talk shit about the game and about Blizzard. I have better things to do with my time. We say these things because we know what potential the game has, and seeing that potential get wasted in light of poor design decisions is heart-wrenching. We're not complaining because we hate the game, we're complaining because we love it, and we're watching it get worse over time, not better. That hurts.

Imagine one of your loved ones, your father, your son, your brother, somebody you care about is in the hands of a professional doctor, surgery falls easily to hand for this analogy. It could even be a female loved one. You expect a surgeon to know what he's doing, and for that person to get better, given the proper treatment and time to recover. You don't expect their condition to get worse, and if it does happen, you're sure going to raise hell with the doctors - they should know better. They are a group of professionals responsible for the care of your loved one. Only in the case of Blizzard and SC2 you don't have unexpected complications like you might get in surgery. Only Blizzard's decision-making. My analogy is generous but still apt.

There's so much I agree about in this OP. Some topics I'm indifferent, but on the whole I agree with most of the general ideas, as well as the analysis of where Blizzard has gone wrong. Hell, even the suggested changes sound well thought-out. The full-bore analyses of things like the strength of air units, and the true damage Macro Boosters do to the game, are things I've had on my mind throughout the LotV beta, as Blizzard completely ignores those very important design rules. There are so many things that could be done to make this game better, but with every chance to make it better Blizzard just seems to make it worse. If Blizzard ran a hospital instead of a game company their collective ass would have been lunched for malpractice years ago.

Seeing a thread such as this is relieving, if nothing else for the knowledge that there are others who wish to articulate this knowledge like I have.

A game is nothing like a medicial condition, which the surgery would simply have one goal: remove the illness in the most effective and least damaging way possible to the body.

This is more like a project which everyone has different end goals and vision.
And one particular group of the participants that felt left out and wrote up their wish list of what it should have been and somehow not understanding this very simple fact and thought it is "getting worse".
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16679 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 06:35:14
November 02 2015 06:33 GMT
#20
On November 02 2015 13:16 Captain Peabody wrote:just throwing every idea and concern and feeling you have, many of which are essentially unrelated, a lot of which are highly subjective, into one giant post that massively changes the game in fifty different ways is just not that helpful. It's simply too much stuff to ever really promote dialogue and engagement, and too disconnected to be actually constructive. The people who have gotten the game changed (like Lalush and the TL strategy team) have done so because they could clearly highlight and clearly explain particular issues and how to fix them.


true.
and if Blizzard disagrees you stand some kind of chance of getting a coherent reason why your idea or part of it... is rejected.
there is zero chance DK will provide a point-by-point commentary on each issue in this post.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 10:42:12
November 02 2015 10:41 GMT
#21
On November 02 2015 08:58 HerrHorst wrote:
While I think that your post is well written and polite, do we really need another thread like this?
We had similiar discussions a million times before and in the end SC2 will never be as you want it to be.



with the state of lotv, and all theoretical hope that future expansions will fix the game lost, i sincerely hope that the community moves on to mods

i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess

thus, posts like this are interesting since they provide input for modders


KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 11:18:11
November 02 2015 10:54 GMT
#22
On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 08:58 HerrHorst wrote:
While I think that your post is well written and polite, do we really need another thread like this?
We had similiar discussions a million times before and in the end SC2 will never be as you want it to be.


with the state of lotv, and all theoretical hope that future expansions will fix the game lost, i sincerely hope that the community moves on to mods

i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess

thus, posts like this are interesting since they provide input for modders



Oh please can we just start to do something about posts like these already.
You're contributing exactly zero to the discussion and are at best devaluing a very well written OP.

The same discussion over and over again.
And now that someone made a very elaborate and interesting post it's still just about "LotV ded guys, go home".
NEEDZMOAR
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Sweden1277 Posts
November 02 2015 12:00 GMT
#23
On November 02 2015 09:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 09:15 -NegativeZero- wrote:
TIL there are actually still people complaining about multiple building select

yeah that's kinda controversial for BW veterans I guess.. personally I don't really agree with his conclusion about it I even think it would be great to test having MBS and automine in BW, and tbh even "UUS" unlimited unit selection, because this kind of things I think it really scares the slower players a lot, it even maybe makes speed a factor that counterbalances strategy a bit more than it needs to be for them I think, and in the end the better players in a game like BW I don't expect they would put all army in 1 group or anything like that you really want little squads and hotkeys to certain units and an easy way to split and position and flank with groups... but it's just not a bad thing to be able to select all units when you want to I think. I think saving up time from control without affecting the decision making is good because it allows for a little more breathing time for actually taking time to watch some things for a little longer than needed and think of what you want to do.. I would be really curious to have that tested in BW. We still do need the interface @bottom of screen imo to visualize units life/counts and select them sometimes. (especially for shift-clicking for deselecting units, or more rarely control-click)



As someone who always thought bw looked cool but not having MBS and UUS kindof put me off to bother learning it, it would be a nice thing to try out. Perhaps the game would be unbalanced then though.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 12:34:06
November 02 2015 12:33 GMT
#24
On November 02 2015 12:09 ZAiNs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 11:39 Lexender wrote:
I really hope they adress mech play properly.

I was really excited when they announced LotV, but after a while I realized they just don't seem to want to make mech playable, just more strange changes, more bio, tanks still suck, cyclones (wich had so much potential) dont make sense now.

I really REALLY hope they do, I've hated TvP since WoL design wise and tought I could finally play a nice interesting mech style but nope.

I have to say the prospect of having to mass bio against protoss everygame is enough to make not want to play the game, I really hope they get it right this time.

You don't have to play bio every game. Read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/495925-tlo-on-macro-mechanics.


I have read it, and while I don't agree with what TLO says (most of it at least) its not so much about wanting to win everything (I'm not even super hardcore when it comes to SC2) I'm just talking about how fun it is, I have a lot of fun when I do it in TvZ and TvT (god I love TvT) but TvP is just so bad, I wouldn't even care about how balanced it is (hell I meched all through HotS) but its just so god damn awful to play I just want to deinstall every time I play a TvP.

But I guess that just means the game is not for me anymore 33% of all my games is quite a lot after all, I'm sure a lot of people (actually most people) enjoy bio every-single-game so theres that, anyway, so I'm minority so it doesn't really matters.

I'm sure nobody will miss me anyway.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
November 02 2015 12:37 GMT
#25
The way this is visually presented (every topic in spoilers, bad "paragraphing", bad formating...) makes it kinda bland and amateur looking.

Otherwise it would be a 10/10 post.
sorry for dem one liners
DanceSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States751 Posts
November 02 2015 12:59 GMT
#26
I couldn't get past the first part of this, everything to me said this was a whine about game balance thread. Nothing here is new, just complaints about what an alternative version of the game could have been. I'm getting sick of people complaining about FF, PO, and WG. We already call protoss attacks all-ins because if they lose it they die, and harasses we call cheeses because they feel gimmicky and we always fail to scout them..
Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
November 02 2015 13:35 GMT
#27
On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess

I wonder, can you change and fix the pathing if you make a mod ? Can you remove autosurround and units making way for each other and generally add better collision ?
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
November 02 2015 13:38 GMT
#28
On November 02 2015 22:35 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess

I wonder, can you change and fix the pathing if you make a mod ? Can you remove autosurround and units making way for each other and generally add better collision ?


Here
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 13:47:56
November 02 2015 13:47 GMT
#29
On November 02 2015 22:38 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 22:35 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess

I wonder, can you change and fix the pathing if you make a mod ? Can you remove autosurround and units making way for each other and generally add better collision ?


Here

Right yes pathing/collision look fine in Starbow!
varsovie
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada326 Posts
November 02 2015 14:09 GMT
#30
I've overlooked fast, gonna read more in-depth latter.


There's multiple points, but I agree with most.
Sadly the post is ridden with factual errors that undermines the serious tone, like saying Valkyrie was seen often or that SC2 workers mine 4 per trip, saying BW doesn't have healer units (poor medic overshadowed by medevac, SCV, morphing and battery shield ), not mentioning Ravens in the free units section...

Will finish reading soon though, well constructed overall.
Gremio747
Profile Joined November 2015
2 Posts
November 02 2015 14:20 GMT
#31
I still don't understand the necessity of introducing a unit such Liberator one month before the release of LotV. In general i think that new units aren't tested properly before launching the expansion...
Ingvar
Profile Joined April 2015
Russian Federation421 Posts
November 02 2015 14:23 GMT
#32

On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:
i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess


You are delusional. At it's best Starbow (which was so BW-esque and obviously better than SC2 in view of TL people) had a population less than that of failed RTS like Grey Goo. No significant part of community wants to play mods.
MMA | Life | Classic | Happy | Team Empire | Team Spirit
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44194 Posts
November 02 2015 14:31 GMT
#33
On November 02 2015 12:14 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 10:14 GiveMeCake wrote:
I don't understand why you went through so much time/effort when LotV is done and there won't be any drastic changes... Is this like a fantasy you have or something?

This post is important because it's the perfect answer to those ignorant people who say "Don't like it? Don't play it." When we criticize Blizzard's design decisions, it's not because we're just there to talk shit about the game and about Blizzard. I have better things to do with my time. We say these things because we know what potential the game has, and seeing that potential get wasted in light of poor design decisions is heart-wrenching. We're not complaining because we hate the game, we're complaining because we love it, and we're watching it get worse over time, not better. That hurts.

Imagine one of your loved ones, your father, your son, your brother, somebody you care about is in the hands of a professional doctor, surgery falls easily to hand for this analogy. It could even be a female loved one. You expect a surgeon to know what he's doing, and for that person to get better, given the proper treatment and time to recover. You don't expect their condition to get worse, and if it does happen, you're sure going to raise hell with the doctors - they should know better. They are a group of professionals responsible for the care of your loved one. Only in the case of Blizzard and SC2 you don't have unexpected complications like you might get in surgery. Only Blizzard's decision-making. My analogy is generous but still apt.


No. Chrono boost is not going to literally kill your son. Holy hyperbole, Batman.

It's perfectly fine to criticize design, although this is the millionth time we've seen the same arguments that clearly aren't accepted or agreed by the design team in charge of SC2. It's a nice compilation of complaints, but I can't imagine it's going to get anywhere if it didn't get anywhere during WoL or HotS or LotV beta.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
OnlyZerg
Profile Joined October 2015
5 Posts
November 02 2015 14:35 GMT
#34
Starcraft will always be hard work, for us the players cause we want to become better, and for thoose who design it want to make it better playable. So i think with time Lotv will become the game we want.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44194 Posts
November 02 2015 14:36 GMT
#35
On November 02 2015 19:54 KeksX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:
On November 02 2015 08:58 HerrHorst wrote:
While I think that your post is well written and polite, do we really need another thread like this?
We had similiar discussions a million times before and in the end SC2 will never be as you want it to be.


with the state of lotv, and all theoretical hope that future expansions will fix the game lost, i sincerely hope that the community moves on to mods

i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess

thus, posts like this are interesting since they provide input for modders



Oh please can we just start to do something about posts like these already.
You're contributing exactly zero to the discussion and are at best devaluing a very well written OP.

The same discussion over and over again.
And now that someone made a very elaborate and interesting post it's still just about "LotV ded guys, go home".


I agree with your disdain regarding such bold claims. summerloud, you should play StarBow. It's an interesting community-made mod combining aspects of BW and SC2. It'll probably resonate with you. And that's awesome. (And if you don't like it, go make your own.) And for the other 99.99% of us who prefer to play SC2 over StarBow, you don't speak for us. You can't make everyone happy all the time. And there will always be issues anyone can nitpick over. But you (and the OP) are part of the vocal minority in terms of this level of hate.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 15:13:29
November 02 2015 14:48 GMT
#36
On November 02 2015 23:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I agree with your disdain regarding such bold claims. summerloud, you should play StarBow. It's an interesting community-made mod combining aspects of BW and SC2. It'll probably resonate with you. And that's awesome. (And if you don't like it, go make your own.) And for the other 99.99% of us who prefer to play SC2 over StarBow, you don't speak for us. You can't make everyone happy all the time. And there will always be issues anyone can nitpick over. But you (and the OP) are part of the vocal minority in terms of this level of hate.

99.99% (lol) prefer SC2 over StarBow, nice made up stat, but I think a huge factor is that the "official" version of the game and most importantly where the community is already focused, and where the money is blown into cash prized tourneys and events by companies and sponsor, play a huge role in what people play and are interested in (they started up SC2 exactly from this, the Starcraft community + money blown into cashprizes tourneys and esports scenes, the game could have been almost anything). Because of how artificial it is, I doubt it will last long though. Telling someone who says a mod would be better than the game he considers not very good to go make his own mod is a bit like bullying lol.

Also "vocal minority" who don't like the game, I read that sometimes, you just state this like it's a fact or something. But in fact, a lot of people unhappy with the game they don't necessarily talk about it very much on forums before they stop playing. They only do when they are passionate about the game or already involved in the forum community or want to try to bring some change, send a message or something. How do you know how many there are ? When I stopped playing SC2 cause I didn't like it 2 months after WoL release, I didn't write nothing on forums, I just talked to my friends on bnet and was gone. Is "the vocal minority who don't like the game" an illusion to entertain the hype around SC2? So many people have stopped playing it. I could say "those who still praise the game are a vocal minority" and that would surely be much closer to what we see around here, and still, who knows ?
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44194 Posts
November 02 2015 15:09 GMT
#37
On November 02 2015 23:48 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Telling someone who says a mod would be better than the game he considers not very good to go make his own mod is a bit like bullying lol.


No it's not. It's telling him to put his money where his mouth is. It's telling him to provide evidence. It's telling him to take initiative on an issue that he's clearly passionate about (but also making unsubstantiated claims about). It's holding him accountable for his rhetoric.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
November 02 2015 15:17 GMT
#38
Basically, what you are doing is, after he states an opinion, tell him you don't want to hear it and instead he should go make an incredible amount of work and go away instead.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44194 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 15:30:12
November 02 2015 15:29 GMT
#39
On November 03 2015 00:17 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Basically, what you are doing is, after he states an opinion, tell him you don't want to hear it and instead he should go make an incredible amount of work and go away instead.


I'm not telling him he should go away. I'm telling him to back up his opinion that we would prefer a community-made mod to SC2, since there's no such evidence yet. If he doesn't like that feedback, then maybe he shouldn't make baseless claims.

Anyways, this thread will probably die or get closed or moved to blogs like so many others, so I'm going to stop spamming comments here. Have a nice day
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
November 02 2015 15:37 GMT
#40
On November 02 2015 23:20 Gremio747 wrote: the necessity of introducing a unit such Liberator one month before the release of LotV. In general i think that new units aren't tested properly before launching the expansion...


Not sure where you got your information from. The Liberator has been a part of the beta far longer than a month. They did patch it within the last month.
Mercurial#1193
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
November 02 2015 15:39 GMT
#41
On November 02 2015 23:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 12:14 NewSunshine wrote:
On November 02 2015 10:14 GiveMeCake wrote:
I don't understand why you went through so much time/effort when LotV is done and there won't be any drastic changes... Is this like a fantasy you have or something?

This post is important because it's the perfect answer to those ignorant people who say "Don't like it? Don't play it." When we criticize Blizzard's design decisions, it's not because we're just there to talk shit about the game and about Blizzard. I have better things to do with my time. We say these things because we know what potential the game has, and seeing that potential get wasted in light of poor design decisions is heart-wrenching. We're not complaining because we hate the game, we're complaining because we love it, and we're watching it get worse over time, not better. That hurts.

Imagine one of your loved ones, your father, your son, your brother, somebody you care about is in the hands of a professional doctor, surgery falls easily to hand for this analogy. It could even be a female loved one. You expect a surgeon to know what he's doing, and for that person to get better, given the proper treatment and time to recover. You don't expect their condition to get worse, and if it does happen, you're sure going to raise hell with the doctors - they should know better. They are a group of professionals responsible for the care of your loved one. Only in the case of Blizzard and SC2 you don't have unexpected complications like you might get in surgery. Only Blizzard's decision-making. My analogy is generous but still apt.


No. Chrono boost is not going to literally kill your son. Holy hyperbole, Batman.

It's perfectly fine to criticize design, although this is the millionth time we've seen the same arguments that clearly aren't accepted or agreed by the design team in charge of SC2. It's a nice compilation of complaints, but I can't imagine it's going to get anywhere if it didn't get anywhere during WoL or HotS or LotV beta.

Of course I'm not speaking literally. In fact I'm sure I used the word analogy at least twice. If you're going to debunk a statement of mine, make sure you do so with a statement I actually made.

And people always say that Blizzard won't listen, therefore there's no point to voicing this opinion. It happens every time I speak out with similar opinions. And I don't care. You're right, Blizzard won't suddenly change tack and start listening to what we're saying, but if we say nothing then for all anybody knows we're perfectly content with the game as it is. Looking through everything the OP lists off, this is clearly not the case. You may not agree with what we say, but that does not impact our right to express it.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
flanksteak
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada246 Posts
November 02 2015 16:18 GMT
#42
Good post, identifies a lot of issues in the game, particularly regarding Protoss. I'll give it another read later, there's a lot.
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
November 02 2015 16:37 GMT
#43
On November 02 2015 23:23 Ingvar wrote:
Show nested quote +

On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:
i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess


You are delusional. At it's best Starbow (which was so BW-esque and obviously better than SC2 in view of TL people) had a population less than that of failed RTS like Grey Goo. No significant part of community wants to play mods.


even if mods were 10x better than lotv (and im 100% sure thats easily doable), they will always lack community / big brand support and player base

the best thing that could happen would be a new RTS made from scratch by intelligent people

just compare diablo 3 to path of exile and you know where blizzards once so high game design skill stands in comparison with dedicated amateurs
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
November 02 2015 16:47 GMT
#44
On November 03 2015 01:37 summerloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 23:23 Ingvar wrote:

On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:
i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess


You are delusional. At it's best Starbow (which was so BW-esque and obviously better than SC2 in view of TL people) had a population less than that of failed RTS like Grey Goo. No significant part of community wants to play mods.


even if mods were 10x better than lotv (and im 100% sure thats easily doable), they will always lack community / big brand support and player base

the best thing that could happen would be a new RTS made from scratch by intelligent people

just compare diablo 3 to path of exile and you know where blizzards once so high game design skill stands in comparison with dedicated amateurs

100% agree
ilovegroov
Profile Joined January 2015
357 Posts
November 02 2015 17:00 GMT
#45
Well just skimming over the topics it looks like at least you identified the problematic zones pretty well.
xTJx
Profile Joined May 2014
Brazil419 Posts
November 02 2015 17:31 GMT
#46
It could have been so much more since WoL, but it's not how Blizzard do their job. They focus at win/loss ratios when balancing the game, not at the gameplay itself.
No prejudices, i hate everyone equally.
BillGates
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
471 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-02 18:10:05
November 02 2015 18:09 GMT
#47
I agree with everything you have written. In fact those are pretty much 99% exactly my thoughts and I've been thinking of writing a good, long post like that and sum it all up, but I've never found the time and more importantly patience.

I even started writing in word on my computer and was hoping that over few weeks I'll be adding more and more stuff and create a post that explains it all nice and well, but I just always failed and my writing seemed too all over the place and not cohesive enough.

But your post pretty much sums up my thoughts, how I feel about SC2 and about the missed opportunities and bad design decisions that were taken on the game.

Unfortunately Dustin Browder was the designer on Red Alert 2, cool game and fun, but absolutely garbage when it came to balance and skill and just overall intelligence into the design. It was super fun, but super silly game and not to be taken seriously or competitively.

David Kim is even worse since he has no prior experience in designing games, he might be good overall player and decent in the sort of minute balance stuff, but he is garbage at actual design, at actual intelligent design and the guy who was key to design to Blizzard was Rob Pardo, this guy was ultimately the mastermind behind SC:BW, WC3, etc... Since he wasn't involved in the same way for SC2, he was involved in the single player design and the story missions and campaign turned up amazing, but he wasn't involved in the multiplayer and the multiplayer turned average and towards bad!

SC2 multiplayer is only good because there are no other serious competitive RTS games out there, that is the only reason SC2 multiplayer is good, there is no competition, but SC2 compared to BW is garbage, the multiplayer is laughable, its like Red Alert 2 fused into SC.
KrOeastbound
Profile Joined August 2015
England59 Posts
November 02 2015 19:01 GMT
#48
Some serious effort there OP. I can only imagine this is something you felt you needed to get off your chest for a while lol.

I have to say LotV has disappointed me, but without going into teen angst mode and calling everything garbage, I do find the game quite bad. I do not like the economic changes or any of the new units, coming to think of it apart from the hellbat I don't really like any other new units added in both expansions.

I actually liked the game a lot during WoL. One new well thought out unit to each race, a re-design of Protoss and a balance change here and there and yeah that would have been cool. The only saving grace is that maybe once the LotV honeymoon is over there may be a chance for a brand spanking new new RTS to shine.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
November 02 2015 19:30 GMT
#49
The OP is easily a 10k word essay. Holy shit.

I didn't read it all. Sorry. What I did read felt a lot like an amalgamation of what the OP thinks SC2 should be. While not super useful to the beta--since it's over, and since such comprehensive reforms like this are unlikely to happen--it encourages me that people think about the RTS genre at such length. Who knows, maybe you can contribute to the scene in more meaningful way than a TL post that will be buried : (

I applaud your effort!

The cynical part of me thinks that the OP is something I myself fall into from time to time. We see something we like. Participate in some way, and then perhaps think ... "Man, I could do this. And I would do it so much better!" I know it's silly, but the impulse is there. I'll be watching a Tool concert and think, "that's not that hard. We could do this!" Obviously that's laughable. It's fucking Tool! I guess what I'm saying is ... it's a lot harder to create and execute something than it is to think you could do better. Or, maybe it's not like that at all, and I'm just projecting. *shrugs*

I'm sad the beta is over.
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
November 02 2015 19:34 GMT
#50
On November 03 2015 01:37 summerloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2015 23:23 Ingvar wrote:

On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:
i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess


You are delusional. At it's best Starbow (which was so BW-esque and obviously better than SC2 in view of TL people) had a population less than that of failed RTS like Grey Goo. No significant part of community wants to play mods.


even if mods were 10x better than lotv (and im 100% sure thats easily doable), they will always lack community / big brand support and player base

the best thing that could happen would be a new RTS made from scratch by intelligent people

just compare diablo 3 to path of exile and you know where blizzards once so high game design skill stands in comparison with dedicated amateurs

It is not enough to have good people, they need money. Lots of it. They need to be able to compete with Blizzard to acomplish something.

PoE compared to Diablo 3 is still super small.
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
November 02 2015 20:13 GMT
#51
On November 03 2015 04:34 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2015 01:37 summerloud wrote:
On November 02 2015 23:23 Ingvar wrote:

On November 02 2015 19:41 summerloud wrote:
i think the majority of the community knows that a community-made mod could be ten times better than this mess


You are delusional. At it's best Starbow (which was so BW-esque and obviously better than SC2 in view of TL people) had a population less than that of failed RTS like Grey Goo. No significant part of community wants to play mods.


even if mods were 10x better than lotv (and im 100% sure thats easily doable), they will always lack community / big brand support and player base

the best thing that could happen would be a new RTS made from scratch by intelligent people

just compare diablo 3 to path of exile and you know where blizzards once so high game design skill stands in comparison with dedicated amateurs

It is not enough to have good people, they need money. Lots of it. They need to be able to compete with Blizzard to acomplish something.

PoE compared to Diablo 3 is still super small.


maybe this just shows that the casual crowd is too big. d3 got more players, poe is clearly superior in every way :/
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
November 02 2015 20:52 GMT
#52
There are a few good points in it but most of it is just complaining that sc2 isn't like BW.
why do you put so much effort in proposing changes to a game when a game that fits your view of good game design already exists?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
November 02 2015 21:12 GMT
#53
On November 03 2015 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:
There are a few good points in it but most of it is just complaining that sc2 isn't like BW.

it is argumenting how and why it could be so much more, not just like BW. Yes BW is better so being much more also means gaining back qualities that BW has but not being the same.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
November 02 2015 21:43 GMT
#54
On November 03 2015 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:
There are a few good points in it but most of it is just complaining that sc2 isn't like BW.
why do you put so much effort in proposing changes to a game when a game that fits your view of good game design already exists?

That's not what the post is about, you're massively generalizing the ideas presented in the OP, and I think you know that. I love SC2, and I suspect the OP does as well, but it was more enjoyable in HotS than it's looking to be in LotV, and it was even more fun still in WoL, before they made massive changes that hurt the game. And ironically, many of the worst changes came from Blizzard trying to reproduce ideas from BW without blatantly copying them. The result in nearly every case was inferior design.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 02 2015 22:24 GMT
#55
First of all, thank you all for feedback. I am sorry for the bad formatting, I just wanted to get this piece out as soon as possible. I already spent almost 2 or 3 months on this (I am a busy family man), and LotV is almost out - I just finished what I had.
On November 02 2015 12:14 NewSunshine wrote:
This post is important because it's the perfect answer to those ignorant people who say "Don't like it? Don't play it." When we criticize Blizzard's design decisions, it's not because we're just there to talk shit about the game and about Blizzard. I have better things to do with my time. We say these things because we know what potential the game has, and seeing that potential get wasted in light of poor design decisions is heart-wrenching. We're not complaining because we hate the game, we're complaining because we love it, and we're watching it get worse over time, not better. That hurts.

I couldn't write it any better.
I am not a native English speaker, and I know a lot of what I wrote could be less convoluted and probably shrunk in size by 25% if written in more efficient manner, but it is too late now - anyway, the content should be more important then the way it is presented.

I do not have enough time today to reply to every post I want to, but I will reply to two that grabbed my attention:
On November 02 2015 21:59 DanceSC wrote:
I couldn't get past the first part of this, everything to me said this was a whine about game balance thread. Nothing here is new, just complaints about what an alternative version of the game could have been. I'm getting sick of people complaining about FF, PO, and WG. We already call protoss attacks all-ins because if they lose it they die, and harasses we call cheeses because they feel gimmicky and we always fail to scout them..

If you actually spend some time and read what I wrote, you will understand that this is exactly what I'm talking about. Without Chronoboost, PO and with a little redesign of WG/Gateway, Protoss would be less gimmicky and no one would call Protoss attacks by the name of all-in - do you know why? Because those removals and redesigns could pave way for buffs to Protoss Core units, or decreases to unit production and tech research time. You should thank Chronoboost for Protoss being gimmicky.
And no, this is not a balance whine, otherwise I would whine about one race, not all 3 of them. I tried to stay as unbiased as I could, if I failed, I'm sorry, but I'm only human.

On November 02 2015 23:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
It's perfectly fine to criticize design, although this is the millionth time we've seen the same arguments that clearly aren't accepted or agreed by the design team in charge of SC2. It's a nice compilation of complaints, but I can't imagine it's going to get anywhere if it didn't get anywhere during WoL or HotS or LotV beta.

If it is same argument about same issue, doesn't that mean that there is an issue after all? I haven't seen any good reason why the things in the game are the way they are.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 02 2015 22:55 GMT
#56
Well i agree with a lot here (i actually didn't read everything yet, but so far it seems similar enough to my own opinion), the sad fact is that blizzard seems to like their design choices though. They don't think these design choices are subpar.
David Kim likes to point out that he cares about something "being cool" , not about solid gameplay.

So yeah it is easier to accept sc2 for what it is and be content with it, we won't get huge changes.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 01:23:46
November 03 2015 00:49 GMT
#57
Make Ultralisk smaller, give it an upgrade to be almost as fast as Zergling with Speed. This way Ultralisk can actually be a part of the fight and do its supposed job of soaking up the damage. Remove splash to reduce supply and resource cost, making Ultralisk more accesible and actually worth to be produced. Revert the +4 armor upgrade back to +2. Make it synergise with Zergling, not compete with it.


Agree. The issue with melee units in Sc2 is that they are completely unmicroable when they are less than "really fast". So if you are to buff them, why not make them faster? The armor buff never made sense in my book.


@ Colossus

When you make a unit slower it doesn't automatically become a positional unit. No it just becomes even more deathballish. To actually make it a proper positional unit it would need to be balanced around less than 0.75 movement speed.

I also find your specific Colossus attack suggestion to be too complicated. I don't think people will enjoy having more "complicated" micro. Just let the Colossus be a simple unit that you can pull back if target fired.

Give Force Field 3 armor, 80 HP (for example) and change it to a neutral unit (destructible) when spawned. It has to be targeted manually (so your units will do nothing unless ordered to attack) so there is some basic micro involved,


Interesting micro is when you reward movement. Target firing a forcefield is not movement and almost noone is gonna find that enjoyable. Forcefield isn't fun and never will be regardless of how you attempt to add countermicro.

Smart Cast means spells need to be weaker, and weaker spells are not exciting to watch or play with. Smart Cast means a Master player can be as good as a pro when it comes to caster micro, which further adds to "meh, if I can do it like a pro, then pro are not that great".


Too an extent true, yet still a bit unnuanced. Smart cast means abilities needs to scale worse while being good in low numbers. That's actually easily doable.

Also abilites can be powerful aslong as they have counterplay (e.g. skillshots). Honestly instant projectile abilites are the most boring thing in the world.

- kill units but leaves them with 1 H


That's my suggestion too for Parasitic. Glad we can agree on that.

Adept, Stalker, Reaper - why super mobility prevents units from being good in a straight up fight


Slightly unnuanced again. The issue with super mobility only comes if it doesn't have a strong counter. Mass blink stalkers was a problem vs zerg because they had no hardcounter to the stalker. Terran on the other hand did in the Maurauder. So the point is that you can actually make the Adept quite strong vs certain units (light) as long as the enemy have obvious tier 1 counter tools.

@ Guardian Shield

You should only opt for ability redesign that makes them feel more powerful if you make them "harder" to use as well. In your suggestion this will just be another ability spam protoss have to perform.

Dark Swarm worked because it was poerful and had huge movement-related consequences. A weak target grouund ability will generally not have the desired effects for movement micro.

Khaydarin Amulet, after all, offensive warp-ins have been severely nerfed with the warp-in time.
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade would help Protoss immensily with drop defense. Because of long warp-in time, High Templars won't be used as much for harassment anyway. There is no reason for HT not to have an energy upgrade like other spellcasters


Oh please no. Being able to warp in a Psy Storm everywhere on the map at any time is insanely broken and not fun to play against. This isn't what a defenders advantage should be. A defenders advantage is something that should be able to be broken. KA isn't.

The issue with protoss anti-drop defense is that they don't have core units that are relatively mobile and can be moved around to defend drops. In order for Stalkers to work they need to outnumber a terran bio dropship + solid blink micro.

The proper fix here is to reduce Medivac healing rate while adding more mobility to the Immortal (so it can defend drops better) and make sure that protoss production matches that of terran/zerg slightly better. On top of that, medivac speed boost could also be reduced to 50% and suddenly an overpowered PO won't feel neccasary anymore.
Martinni
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada169 Posts
November 03 2015 00:58 GMT
#58
Excellent post! FF, Collosus, broodlord, SmartFire and SmartCast all need to be addressed. I remember in WoL when people complained about these issues also. I really don't understand why blizzard hasn't responded to these yet.

Now it's almost forgotten and considered "normal" but it's still hurting the game very much!
this is kinda like the guy that started milking and cows... what the hell was he doing?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 09:18:14
November 03 2015 01:25 GMT
#59
Lol seriously I just read that I was the only one so far who have responded to his actual suggestion. I guess most people here are just on the blind circlejerk with the logic:

"OP wrote a lot and seems smart + LOTV sucks = OP is awesome".
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 01:31:39
November 03 2015 01:30 GMT
#60
On November 03 2015 10:25 Hider wrote:
Lol seriously I just read that I was the only one so far who have responded to his actual suggestion. I guess most people here are just on the blind circlejerk with the logic:

"OP wrote a lot and seems smart + LOTV sucks = OP is awesome".

The main issue with OP's suggestion is that he consistently wants to promote more micro that everyone during the LOTV beta realized they don't like (clicks for the sake of clicks) whereas he ignores the importance of movement based micro. Just goes to show the lack of critical skills of the average commentator on this thread.

Or rather the actual suggestions he makes are secondary to the point. The main point is to examine the game to find its faults, and examine why that is the case. The OP doesn't even need to make any suggestions - though it can't hurt. When you delve deep enough into why certain elements are bad for the game, it becomes easier to target those elements with a focused design change. His suggestions would be a first draft if anything. But please, continue to smugly put down an entire population for no obvious reason.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 01:53:08
November 03 2015 01:52 GMT
#61
On November 03 2015 10:25 Hider wrote:
Lol seriously I just read that I was the only one so far who have responded to his actual suggestion. I guess most people here are just on the blind circlejerk with the logic:

"OP wrote a lot and seems smart + LOTV sucks = OP is awesome".

The main issue with OP's suggestion is that he consistently wants to promote more micro that everyone during the LOTV beta realized they don't like (clicks for the sake of clicks) whereas he ignores the importance of movement based micro. Just goes to show the lack of critical skills of the average commentator on this thread.

There is no point in discussing actual suggestions as long as these suggestions don't come from blizzard or someone who could make blizzard listen.
I know you like to propose actual suggestions yourself a lot, but tbh it's pointless. General design ideas are more interesting to discuss.

edit:

On November 03 2015 10:30 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2015 10:25 Hider wrote:
Lol seriously I just read that I was the only one so far who have responded to his actual suggestion. I guess most people here are just on the blind circlejerk with the logic:

"OP wrote a lot and seems smart + LOTV sucks = OP is awesome".

The main issue with OP's suggestion is that he consistently wants to promote more micro that everyone during the LOTV beta realized they don't like (clicks for the sake of clicks) whereas he ignores the importance of movement based micro. Just goes to show the lack of critical skills of the average commentator on this thread.

Or rather the actual suggestions he makes are secondary to the point. The main point is to examine the game to find its faults, and examine why that is the case. The OP doesn't even need to make any suggestions - though it can't hurt. When you delve deep enough into why certain elements are bad for the game, it becomes easier to target those elements with a focused design change. His suggestions would be a first draft if anything. But please, continue to smugly put down an entire population for no obvious reason.


Exactly this
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
PuraDinn
Profile Joined October 2015
Canada15 Posts
November 03 2015 04:19 GMT
#62
I don't understand these posts. Do you guys really think that Blizzard is going to do a full 180 and change every mechanic of SC2? Game design takes time and experience. It's not as simple as you think. The forcefield changes you proposed would require a complete re-write of how the Protoss race works.

This is just pointless gish gallopping, there is such a variety of points you bring up that it's not even worth it to try and debate, and so instead the only people who respond are people writing "Yea I agree 10/10 post".
Set a course, take it slow, make it happen :)
PuraDinn
Profile Joined October 2015
Canada15 Posts
November 03 2015 04:35 GMT
#63
On November 03 2015 10:25 Hider wrote:
Lol seriously I just read that I was the only one so far who have responded to his actual suggestion. I guess most people here are just on the blind circlejerk with the logic:

"OP wrote a lot and seems smart + LOTV sucks = OP is awesome".

The main issue with OP's suggestion is that he consistently wants to promote more micro that everyone during the LOTV beta realized they don't like (clicks for the sake of clicks) whereas he ignores the importance of movement based micro. Just goes to show the lack of critical skills of the average commentator on this thread.


I agree with you. Everyone loves to be a backseat game designer. Why can't Starcraft 2 just xyz? Where xyz is some completely unneeded change which would completely redesign the game only wanted by armchair game designers. Half the praise for OP is followed by "Didn't read the whole thing but you sound right, 10/10 OP thanks for saving SC2".
Set a course, take it slow, make it happen :)
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
November 03 2015 06:11 GMT
#64
On November 03 2015 13:19 wandroid wrote:
I don't understand these posts. Do you guys really think that Blizzard is going to do a full 180 and change every mechanic of SC2? Game design takes time and experience. It's not as simple as you think. The forcefield changes you proposed would require a complete re-write of how the Protoss race works.

This is just pointless gish gallopping, there is such a variety of points you bring up that it's not even worth it to try and debate, and so instead the only people who respond are people writing "Yea I agree 10/10 post".

You picked a fine reason to start posting here.

We know Blizzard isn't going to turn the ship around. They never were. They probably had everything set to go this way with the launch of Wings of Liberty, you can tell from how they justify even their most questionable design decisions that those decisions were made beforehand, and nothing was going to change.

What I am not going to do, is stop voicing my opinion and just wave all this through. It will be the way it will be, I won't change that, but my opinion will be known. My right to express my feelings about this game are not going to be stymied by someone who posts to say just how much they don't get it. If you'd like to contribute something to the real discussion at hand, you're free to do so, but you haven't done yet.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Sogetsu
Profile Joined July 2011
514 Posts
November 03 2015 06:45 GMT
#65
Man, you should make a MOD of it, like StarBow, if it is good enough people will play it (well, the lack of ingame ladder sux anyway but maybe in the future we can get it for the Arcade)

TBH I lost faith on Blizz, and while I am not playing SC2 right now (StarBow anyways) because I am playing other thing (GW2 HoT <3 ), I think this is the time for modders to improve the game, and there is no way Blizz can change huge things from now on.
Raptor: "Es hora de salvar a los E-Sports..." http://i3.minus.com/ibtne3liprtByB.png
Topher_Doll
Profile Joined August 2015
United States76 Posts
November 03 2015 06:55 GMT
#66
Make a mod of this otherwise it's all theory. In the history of SC2 we've seen plenty of people claim their version of SC2 is better but once it's tested reality doesn't always matchup. StarBow may be the only real successful mod to come from people claiming to make a better game than SC2 but you have plenty that sucked.

Make this a mod, publish it and we'll see which is better and which the fans want to play, a theory is only a theory until it's tested.
I'm a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Descent
Profile Joined January 2008
1244 Posts
November 03 2015 07:26 GMT
#67
Did anyone else notice tonight that Blizzard announced they are buying Candy Crush? Basically it really shows where their priorities are IMO. Internally, I think they honestly don't really care about LotV and just want to get the project over with.

They could really invest the resources into making StarCraft great if they wanted to, but instead they're going after the mobile gaming market--which may be a good business decision, to be fair. The Blizzcon 2015 SC2 prize pool is like ~$250k, and they're spending billions of dollars for Candy Crush.
「 Dream & Future 」 ※ 「 STX SouL 」
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
November 03 2015 07:31 GMT
#68
first, thank you for taking the time for such a complete and well thought out post.
unfortunately at this point in time (production) it only makes me want to not play LOTV...
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 09:29:51
November 03 2015 09:22 GMT
#69
There is no point in discussing actual suggestions as long as these suggestions don't come from blizzard or someone who could make blizzard listen.
I know you like to propose actual suggestions yourself a lot, but tbh it's pointless. General design ideas are more interesting to discuss.


In that regard, OP's 10K words are also pointless because nothing of it is gonna happen, but you can still have a discussion. My little vent had nothing to do with discussion suggestions or not. Instead, my point is the ridiculous circlejerk where people hate X and then they see Y that is the opposite of X, and love every single thing about Y.

Since noone actually seemed to comment on the specifics, it semes that I am the only one who actuall critically read what he wrote.

But ofc I overall agree with his philsophy that LOTV could have been so much more. But rewarding more clicks for the sake of clicks is not turning LOTV into a better game.

StarBow may be the only real successful mod to come from people claiming to make a better game than SC2 but you have plenty that sucked.


All the "great" stuff came from BW from BW numbers, design and balance. In terms of new innovative stuff, what is "succesful" about Starbow?

Mods don't work; partly because the arcade is bad, but also because the designers of the mod aren't competent + cannot work full time on it.
Gowerly
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom916 Posts
November 03 2015 10:59 GMT
#70
A good amount of these changes can be done in the SC2 Editor.

If it's something you want and think would improve the game, then make it. Show us, don't just tell us.
I will reduce you to a series of numbers.
DinosaurPoop
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
687 Posts
November 03 2015 14:10 GMT
#71
Warpgate is a fucking upgrade, why SHOULDN't it be better than Gateway?
When cats speak, mice listen.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 15:10:17
November 03 2015 14:20 GMT
#72
On November 03 2015 23:10 DinosaurPoop wrote:
Warpgate is a fucking upgrade, why SHOULDN't it be better than Gateway?

I think for example if you have the option of not researching warpgate @start of game and still use gateways effectively, and if once warpgate is researched you get the warpin ability but the cooldown on warpgate is the same as the unit build time in normal gateway (or even, more!), we could get a more interesting game with choices about that at start. Sometimes you would not research warpgate right away in order to save some money for another tech.. (increase warpgate research cost to 100/100 or 50/125 or something, so sometimes you'd go citadel or robo first or some upgrade..). If you manage to get a balance where there is still an incentive to actually keep some gateways because they produce faster or something else, you could have Protoss games where the player chooses not to transform some gateways into Warpgates. And sometimes switch gateways between Warpgates and not Warpgates back. It could be bring more choices for deeper strategic games. Maybe, for example, the warpgate can't warp-in all of the gateway units (no templars or DTs, for instance). But of course then the amount of things to rebalance then is accross the whole game, would definitely reduce the DPS of almost everything (mostly attack speed) so things are more durable and more microable. (zealot definitely remove charge and probably give legs upgrade again). I would really like that sort of things.
I liked the Warpgate/warpprism idea on paper quite a bit, but not really its implementation in practice, it lacks choice and gateway units are really meh on their own in SC2 so you can't do that many different stuff on the map with it.

About Chronoboost, I actually also liked the idea on paper, and again not so much its implementation which I found messy. Am I right it is still on Nexus costing 25 energy and giving +50% speed ? I would like it better if you get only one chronoboost per nexus which stays where it is, you just switch it around when you want (no energy cost), and for the effect I would maybe reduce it a little, like +33%. Maybe even make Chronoboost be cast only on pylons, and affect everything that the pylon powers, by a smaller amount like +20% or less. Definitely remove spawn larva so Zerg must plan numbers and position of hatcheries again and make those larva matter more off of more bases, less workers more bases.. I would change so many things. I think Stalker I would give blink a much longer cooldown and strengthen the stalker stats. Could be a stronger attack but longer attack cooldown. The Immortal idea I kinda like but with a less specialized role. Colo I would either remove it or give it an non-AoE, single target strong laser attack, perhaps a overtime attack resembling the laser beam of sentry but with more DPS (remove void ray). ForceField either removed or with a larger energy cost (double), it is way too dominant and imposes itself to situations for too long.
The creep spreading for Z, also like this idea on paper, again I don't like the implementation. I don't like that it costs energy off queens and the little tumors are very quickly killed. The energy cost makes it too easy to spam tumors, and they are killed so quick. I don't like that creep increases speed of Z units on it. I like that it is used for moving sunkens around, and I would add regeneration of life for Z units multiplied by 2 or 3 on creep (something that matters a lot out of battle and perhaps still significant in battle too) but not speed increase, and make units like hydras 1 supply 75/25 cost different stats and faster with probably a speed upgrade. And for spreading creep, something like a building that is burrowed but takes longer to kill, with a small mineral cost like 25, built by queen maybe. I would keep the queen in the game I think and that would be perhaps the one unit that can't walk fast off creep and used for defence and keep the life infuse ability probably. Would change a lot of things, everything in fact, and give Starbow's pathing to SC2 definitely (that's a crucial point).
For Terran some change done to MULE to counterbalance, maybe remove it or allow only 1 mule at a time per command center... I would definitely remove the marauder concussive shell ability which totally breaks the engagements cause you must not get in range of it unless you know you won't want to retreat, I really dislike that. Tbh I would change a lot of things on T bio, medivac make his army way too mobile the movement and positional game on map is too much reflex and don't get caught. Tank strong again. No widow mines, but perhaps spider mines sure. A mine that it doesn't matter if you lose some, not costly, and not so strong and not hitting more than once per mine. So T lays mines on larger areas again. Or something different. Don't like hellions mechanically, the way they are microed no... lots of things I don't like but I liked the idea of having reactor/tech lab being switchable between fact starport and barracks, that's what I liked on paper but then ended up disliking cause of the units.
Martinni
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada169 Posts
November 03 2015 15:02 GMT
#73
On November 03 2015 23:10 DinosaurPoop wrote:
Warpgate is a fucking upgrade, why SHOULDN't it be better than Gateway?


It is better in the fact that it warp anywhere. I agree with OP on this one. What if the gateway production was faster than warpgates but warpgate allows you to warp in anywhere at an increased cost.
this is kinda like the guy that started milking and cows... what the hell was he doing?
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 15:26:02
November 03 2015 15:03 GMT
#74
On November 04 2015 00:02 Martinni wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2015 23:10 DinosaurPoop wrote:
Warpgate is a fucking upgrade, why SHOULDN't it be better than Gateway?


It is better in the fact that it warp anywhere. I agree with OP on this one. What if the gateway production was faster than warpgates but warpgate allows you to warp in anywhere at an increased cost.

Yes :D
maybe we should actually start thinking of making a mod :D
I think we can make something good lol :D
and the nice thing is, we could reduce art-work a lot which is HEAVILY time consuming, cause there is a lot of decent art in the game already. Change some things, maybe some voices and animations but we could really focus mostly on a whole large rebalance/redesign while still keeping some of the basic essence of the new ideas of SC2.

On the topic of animations, one thing I would DEFINITELY change is the Terran building when they are flying, don't let them change direction fast like this it is atrociously stupid looking!! Just let them keep their orientation like in starcraft, they can be same speed or a bit slower so switching around does mean losing a bit of effective time for that building.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
November 03 2015 16:25 GMT
#75
On November 03 2015 19:59 Gowerly wrote:
A good amount of these changes can be done in the SC2 Editor.

If it's something you want and think would improve the game, then make it. Show us, don't just tell us.

It's not a bad idea, but it is possible to both show and tell. A post like this is a great way to compile all your ideas and give yourself direction, it's a good outline of what you will be trying to do. Modding SC2 is a huge undertaking, if I were to tackle such a thing I wouldn't want to be without direction, that's asking for failure.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
November 03 2015 16:36 GMT
#76
On November 03 2015 18:22 Hider wrote:
In that regard, OP's 10K words are also pointless because nothing of it is gonna happen, but you can still have a discussion.
This is very wrong. Discussing general concepts is awesome, very interesting and hardly pointless. You take away so much when comparing BW/SC2/Starbow/WC3 about general concepts of strategy and game design. It doesn't matter at all if Blizzard correct their mistakes. On the other side talking about particular suggestions like whether bunker build times should be +-5 second could be pointless because Blizzard won't change it, but more importantly it won't give you any other understanding of the game.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 16:50:06
November 03 2015 16:47 GMT
#77
On November 04 2015 01:36 Tuczniak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2015 18:22 Hider wrote:
In that regard, OP's 10K words are also pointless because nothing of it is gonna happen, but you can still have a discussion.
This is very wrong. Discussing general concepts is awesome, very interesting and hardly pointless. You take away so much when comparing BW/SC2/Starbow/WC3 about general concepts of strategy and game design. It doesn't matter at all if Blizzard correct their mistakes. On the other side talking about particular suggestions like whether bunker build times should be +-5 second could be pointless because Blizzard won't change it, but more importantly it won't give you any other understanding of the game.


I never suggested any +5 BT suggestions. I analyzed the flaws in his suggestions and a made a few counterproposals (on a general level)..

This was just the RedViper making a weird response that didn't make any type of sense given what I responded to and now you are continuing the discussion based on absolutely nothing.

Please read the posts to understand the context before you claim other people are wrong.
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
November 03 2015 17:12 GMT
#78
I agree with mostly all of your thoughts...

Sc2 could be so much more but, without trying to sound pessimistic or anything, it's current metagame is brutally boring.

People just try to max out on the strongest composition, any race in any matchup. It's all about getting the strongest 200/200 deathball and winning one decisive fight, even as zerg. There are some small expections where you make harassing units (phoenixes, muta) to allow you to get an economic advantage. I feel like those are great, but defending now is getting easier and easier. 3-4 turret in the main with a few widowmine, a bunker behind a depot wall and mine at the third... You have to be far ahead to invest into breaking those defenses.

I'm not complaining, I still enjoy playing and I'll always do, but the game has grown in a direction that I do not support.
One of the issue is that splitting your army is nearly impossible. I was thinking about that the other day. The reason every map has such a pocket third base is that it's impossible to defend high ground position with minimal units like it is in Brood War.

On Fighting Spirit, let's say, as Terran, when you take the third, you wall off the 2 ramps, you put 2-3 turrets with the same amount of tanks, a few mines, a bunker, and that expo is safe for a long time. The protoss has to recall on it or stasis the tanks to get through.

In star2, if you split your units to defend a key location, the full force of your enemy will just stomp your small force. There is no effective trading here. 3 tanks in bw can defend a location and trade efficiently, until being taken out, even against a 200/200 army, because it's not moving in a fucking ball, so the time they reach the tanks, the force has taken considerable damage.

Just food for thought on this Tuesday morning.

Cheers m8s
DERASTAT
Profile Joined May 2014
Germany99 Posts
November 03 2015 17:26 GMT
#79
For that starbow and other mods exists!
Kajiu, Troll der Zerstörung
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 17:46:34
November 03 2015 17:44 GMT
#80
On November 04 2015 01:47 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 01:36 Tuczniak wrote:
On November 03 2015 18:22 Hider wrote:
In that regard, OP's 10K words are also pointless because nothing of it is gonna happen, but you can still have a discussion.
This is very wrong. Discussing general concepts is awesome, very interesting and hardly pointless. You take away so much when comparing BW/SC2/Starbow/WC3 about general concepts of strategy and game design. It doesn't matter at all if Blizzard correct their mistakes. On the other side talking about particular suggestions like whether bunker build times should be +-5 second could be pointless because Blizzard won't change it, but more importantly it won't give you any other understanding of the game.


I never suggested any +5 BT suggestions. I analyzed the flaws in his suggestions and a made a few counterproposals (on a general level)..

This was just the RedViper making a weird response that didn't make any type of sense given what I responded to and now you are continuing the discussion based on absolutely nothing.

Please read the posts to understand the context before you claim other people are wrong.

What about Viper's response makes no sense? You came into the thread and wasted no time stirring the shit and blowing smoke up your own arse, and he explained why your post isn't needed. So did I. This is a discussion about general design and where Blizzard failed in those areas of design, to further our understanding of the game in a substantial way. Arguing about specific solutions to a problem is a bridge this discussion doesn't intend to cross - because to truly solve a problem you must first identify the exact parameters of the problem. It's all about analyzing the design of the game and what makes it feel like it's becoming less fun to play. You can strip away all of the suggested changes in the OP and it still stands as a strong analysis of SC2's weak points, as a piece of design. You're barking up the wrong tree.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
TheoMikkelsen
Profile Joined June 2013
Denmark196 Posts
November 03 2015 17:53 GMT
#81
I agree with some of the points but many of them point towards general design errors when in fact these areas could simply use tweaks.
Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill
Mjolnir
Profile Joined January 2009
912 Posts
November 03 2015 19:30 GMT
#82
I have no issues with multi-building select, or being able to select your entire army and group it on one hotkey.

I do have issues with some of the unit design. It's blasphemous to say on this site but some units are straight up OP to the point where they dominate the strats used by that race. I won't mention them so as not to get a ban-hammer-beat-down but the balance in the game feels off. I'm not even talking about race-specific win-rates, I'm talking about balance with regard to unit parity.

Ah well, there's always the next Warcraft RTS.
KrOeastbound
Profile Joined August 2015
England59 Posts
November 03 2015 19:52 GMT
#83
On November 04 2015 04:30 Mjolnir wrote:
I have no issues with multi-building select, or being able to select your entire army and group it on one hotkey.

I do have issues with some of the unit design. It's blasphemous to say on this site but some units are straight up OP to the point where they dominate the strats used by that race. I won't mention them so as not to get a ban-hammer-beat-down but the balance in the game feels off. I'm not even talking about race-specific win-rates, I'm talking about balance with regard to unit parity.

Ah well, there's always the next Warcraft RTS.


Yeah because Warcraft was always a fantastically balanced RTS series :p
Mjolnir
Profile Joined January 2009
912 Posts
November 03 2015 19:57 GMT
#84
On November 04 2015 04:52 KrOeastbound wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 04:30 Mjolnir wrote:
I have no issues with multi-building select, or being able to select your entire army and group it on one hotkey.

I do have issues with some of the unit design. It's blasphemous to say on this site but some units are straight up OP to the point where they dominate the strats used by that race. I won't mention them so as not to get a ban-hammer-beat-down but the balance in the game feels off. I'm not even talking about race-specific win-rates, I'm talking about balance with regard to unit parity.

Ah well, there's always the next Warcraft RTS.


Yeah because Warcraft was always a fantastically balanced RTS series :p


I didn't say it was balanced but it would be a nice change after 5 years of SC2.
KrOeastbound
Profile Joined August 2015
England59 Posts
November 03 2015 20:02 GMT
#85
On November 04 2015 04:57 Mjolnir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 04:52 KrOeastbound wrote:
On November 04 2015 04:30 Mjolnir wrote:
I have no issues with multi-building select, or being able to select your entire army and group it on one hotkey.

I do have issues with some of the unit design. It's blasphemous to say on this site but some units are straight up OP to the point where they dominate the strats used by that race. I won't mention them so as not to get a ban-hammer-beat-down but the balance in the game feels off. I'm not even talking about race-specific win-rates, I'm talking about balance with regard to unit parity.

Ah well, there's always the next Warcraft RTS.


Yeah because Warcraft was always a fantastically balanced RTS series :p


I didn't say it was balanced but it would be a nice change after 5 years of SC2.


Oh I agree. Just was having flashbacks of Wc2 and couldn't help myself there lol.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 23:41:08
November 03 2015 20:19 GMT
#86
So I'm writing this while reading and skimming through the OP. A lot of the things have been said before and I'm not going to go point by point on everything, but here are a few bulletpoints.
  • Overkill is mostly in the game, prominently it is missing from the siege tank and marine but many other units, in particular units like stalkers, adepts or roaches suffer severely from it.
  • Smartcast is good, it makes spells more accesible to everyone. We hear nothing but complains about the amount of abilities that you have to manually click here and there and you want to inherently increase this by a huge amount. I disagree with this sentiment. And the outcome would also be terrible gameplay, lots of "hit that storm or die" situations. Especially if you don't implement that with a control group limit at the same time, because then outmaneuvering those few spells would be just so easy, while being so demanding, that the a storm needed to do 200damage if it couldn't be spammed.
  • You suggest Neural to be tried at 8range from 7, but blizzard actually already increased neural back to 9range in LotV. In general I don't like the infestor suggestions.
  • Warpgate and early bandaids make Protoss just different from what you and many (partly including me) want it to be. That is they are a race that is forced to tech high very fast while sitting tight early. I think blizzard is hitting their design goals with that and I believe if they just made hightech more fun than Colossus or Skytoss turtling people wouldn't complain. Units like disruptors have the potential to fix this, though I think the effort isn't big enough because most Protoss hightier units are too irreplaceable by their own design.
  • Pathing is a very interesting discussion, but I'm afraid it influences too much of the game to really alter it at this point. An RTS game has to be built around it's clumping/pathing/formation options, if you alter that too much you have to go all the way back to the drawing board with stats and unit massing dynamics.
    Furthermore I gotta say that SC2 pathing - in comparison to many, especially older RTS games - gets the most important things right, which is that units take efficient paths without horrible bandaids and that they don't scatter completely or get stuck at corners and stuff. There are however quite some things that can be thrown into the discussion, from too efficient movement (damage density of singlefire units) over not efficient enough movement (units standing too close to each other suffering too much AoE when unmicroed) to the general question of whether to keep formations or clump or scatter at target locations. A lot of that is once again a question of which tools you add to the game to handle what the pathing does.
  • Many of your ideas go way over board and just have no place in SC2. You basically just introduce "new" units with an old name and skin in many cases. And not just in few cases, but across the board when just change up half of the zerg race.
  • Hydralisks are not good vs lings, they are really terrible against them. Also you just missinterprete the role of the hydralisk as that of the roach with antiair. You want a gas-cheaper hydralisk to include more gasheavy units in your compositions, but as a matter of fact when you go for a roach/hydra composition the hydralisk takes the role itself, being the more scarce "zerg-colossus" type of dps unit behind the meatshield. (in a much better way than the colossus because the hydralisk can be killed without the zerg just losing and has more distinct counters in the form of micro be it splash or focusfire)
  • I agree on the thing with Gateway units and terrain-ignoring factors pretty much completely. It is disheartening to play against Protoss when they can move their whole stalkerarmy up a cliff, tunnel through and into my army and close gaps in a heartbeat. So much micro and positioning is lost when you can't block close a ramp against adepts with queens, or your tank is just a target for blink.
  • Disagree completely with scouting. It's a number one reason why RTS games are not keeping up.
    1) new players are way too scared. If you ever watch a new player play, he will sit in his base, build canons for 10mins, make an expansion, try to make an army and then attack at 20mins. That people then turn their back and consider SC2 as boring (too much time needs to be spent preparing) and stressful (never know where the opponent is) is only logical.
    2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
    Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
  • unlimited selection is great and a massive improvement to the enjoyability of Starcraft and RTS games in general. Even in 1999 or 2000 when I first got my hands on Starcraft my first big relief was that I could select more units than in WC2. Not all of them, but at least more.
  • Many of your arguments are the typical broodwar-fan arguments that are only about creating a hard game. Not about a fun game. I think this line of thought suffers from a distinct lack of imagination. You can easily make the game harder in other ways that are much less interfering with the most basics that everyone wants to enjoy. And yes, that means you should allow people to have the most basic army moving skills of a progamer. Because that's so core to the game that you gotta ask yourself why you play a game that is said to be all about big armies when you have to spend hours, days, weeks just that this big army actually starts making sense.


Sure I haven't covered everything
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 21:38:49
November 03 2015 21:12 GMT
#87
On November 04 2015 02:44 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 01:47 Hider wrote:
On November 04 2015 01:36 Tuczniak wrote:
On November 03 2015 18:22 Hider wrote:
In that regard, OP's 10K words are also pointless because nothing of it is gonna happen, but you can still have a discussion.
This is very wrong. Discussing general concepts is awesome, very interesting and hardly pointless. You take away so much when comparing BW/SC2/Starbow/WC3 about general concepts of strategy and game design. It doesn't matter at all if Blizzard correct their mistakes. On the other side talking about particular suggestions like whether bunker build times should be +-5 second could be pointless because Blizzard won't change it, but more importantly it won't give you any other understanding of the game.


I never suggested any +5 BT suggestions. I analyzed the flaws in his suggestions and a made a few counterproposals (on a general level)..

This was just the RedViper making a weird response that didn't make any type of sense given what I responded to and now you are continuing the discussion based on absolutely nothing.

Please read the posts to understand the context before you claim other people are wrong.

What about Viper's response makes no sense? You came into the thread and wasted no time stirring the shit and blowing smoke up your own arse, and he explained why your post isn't needed. So did I. This is a discussion about general design and where Blizzard failed in those areas of design, to further our understanding of the game in a substantial way. Arguing about specific solutions to a problem is a bridge this discussion doesn't intend to cross - because to truly solve a problem you must first identify the exact parameters of the problem. It's all about analyzing the design of the game and what makes it feel like it's becoming less fun to play. You can strip away all of the suggested changes in the OP and it still stands as a strong analysis of SC2's weak points, as a piece of design. You're barking up the wrong tree.


Let's look at the actual course of events.

1. OP writes 31K words (yes that many) containing an analysis of the design flaws of Blizzard and some design suggestions

2. Everyone else goes OMG BLIZZARD YOU SUCK I AGREE WITH YOU circkle mode (you are the worst one here). No actual design-realated discussions are being had in this proces. It's just venting.

3. I discuss some of the flaws of OPs suggestions from a design perspective. E.g. OP wants to promote less movement based micro and more "click-micro", he also doesn't take into account that you can make abilites scale worse and that slower units doesn't become more positional but just more detahballish.

4. Red Vipers mentions how we should not discuss suggestions. Only design. That obviously doens't make sense because I am the only one who discusses design and everyone else are circlejerking.

5. I respond that it doesn't make sense because OP is spending thousands and thousands of words proposing suggestions that are flawed from a design-perspective.

6. You respond how we should not discuss +5 second bunker BT. Seriously how on earth did you come up with example. I am discussing design related topics. You are not just. You are just story-telling and whining over Blizzard. That's less productive than discussing suggestions even though they are never going to be implemented.

If anything; i believe you are being disrespectful to OP: He is basically writing a master's thesis lenght document and all you do is use it to vent. Nooone is even asking into some of the specifics he says. Why not just open a new thread and call it "I WANT TO VENT-THREAD". That would make more sense for what is occuring now.

A dicussion takes place in what OP is saying and almost noone (besides one guy who talked about MBS) are doing that.

Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 21:33:53
November 03 2015 21:29 GMT
#88
On November 03 2015 09:49 Hider wrote:When you make a unit slower it doesn't automatically become a positional unit. No it just becomes even more deathballish. To actually make it a proper positional unit it would need to be balanced around less than 0.75 movement speed.

I also find your specific Colossus attack suggestion to be too complicated. I don't think people will enjoy having more "complicated" micro. Just let the Colossus be a simple unit that you can pull back if target fired.
I guess it is fair to say, and I might agree with you. I do not think my solution is the best one - there are others, many probably better then mine. Anyway, with a really slow movement speed, it would require a Shuttle to move it around. In BW Reaver was so slow it had to be carried around. Same could be done with the Collosus. That is mine way of thinking.

Interesting micro is when you reward movement. Target firing a forcefield is not movement and almost noone is gonna find that enjoyable. Forcefield isn't fun and never will be regardless of how you attempt to add countermicro.
This was actually to give players some degree of counterplay to FF, which can only be taken down with Ravager or a Massive unit. My idea was to give players some early or mid game option of dealing with FF, without the band-aid, which Ravager's Bile is (or at least this is my opinion)
Making FF destructible is the first step. Giving some option of keeping FF up to the Protoss player was an extra, which I do not think needs to be implemented, but there are other ways of making it interesting, or at least giving it an extra interaction. I thought it might have been good idea when I wrote that part. You may be right, but we can and should always explore other solutions instead of just putting ourselves down with "Blizz won't do anything anyway".
For example, instead of Sentry's attack healing FF, a Sentry can heal all FF around it, but simply being in range. 5 HP/s if range is 1 or less, 4 HP/s when range is 1-2, 3 HP/s when range is 2-3 etc. Moving Sentry back and forward can determine the speed of the healing, but also makes Sentry more vulnerable to sniping.
Another idea could be to make FF 25 energy, and 3-5 energy per second drain. If Sentry moves after putting down FF, or it dies, FF will go down 1 second after Sentry's KO.
In the end, it doesn't matter how the matter is resolved, or if Sentry should heal FF in the first place - but first, I would like to see a FF being destructible or removed. An ability that cannot be avoided and limits micro and movement is bad. Hope we both agree on this one.

Too an extent true, yet still a bit unnuanced. Smart cast means abilities needs to scale worse while being good in low numbers. That's actually easily doable.
It may be, but yet Blizzard done a terrible job at it, and I think we also agree on that.

Slightly unnuanced again. The issue with super mobility only comes if it doesn't have a strong counter. Mass blink stalkers was a problem vs zerg because they had no hardcounter to the stalker. Terran on the other hand did in the Maurauder. So the point is that you can actually make the Adept quite strong vs certain units (light) as long as the enemy have obvious tier 1 counter tools.
I don't agree on this one. Zergling has a lot of counters - Hellion, Hellbat, Marines with Stim, Storm, Collosus, Lurker, Baneling, current Ultralisk, Yet if it had an upgrade allowing it to jump up the cliff once every 30 seconds, Lings would be terribly imbalanced and would require nerfs in attack or movement speed, health or anycombination of 3. Maybe I didn't word it correctly, but extra mobility is always a buff to the unit. Even Siege Tank pick up is a buff, however unlikable.

You should only opt for ability redesign that makes them feel more powerful if you make them "harder" to use as well. In your suggestion this will just be another ability spam protoss have to perform.
Somehow I agree on this one. Radius should not be changed, maybe 3 armor could be changed to something else. 30% damage reduction (after armor), or being able to survive a KO hit with 1 HP instead of dying, or combination of other traits. Anyway, my suggestion should not be the main point, as I said in many places throughout opening post, I do not think my ideas are the best. There might have been better ones around TL for years, burried somewhere deep. But Guardian Shield could be changed to something more situational, as opposed to "press key to benefit".

The proper fix here is to reduce Medivac healing rate while adding more mobility to the Immortal (so it can defend drops better) and make sure that protoss production matches that of terran/zerg slightly better. On top of that, medivac speed boost could also be reduced to 50% and suddenly an overpowered PO won't feel neccasary anymore.
I believe Medivac Boost should be scrapped altogether, and if Medivac needs any speed buff at all, it should be passive bonus like all other upgrades in the game. I agree on the production - Protoss is really gimped compared to Zerg Inject and Terran Reactor+Mule. Healing rate should not be altered - it will brake Bio.
I still think energy upgrade for HT could do a lot of good - 5 second warp-in time for Warp Prism is a lot, and far away Pylons take even more time. It is easy to snipe HT before it does anything at all. In worst case, if only 1 HT is warped in, even workers should be able to kill it if you react fast enough.




A lot of people seem to respond in "don't like SC2? make a mod" fashion. Hider and others already stated why it won't work, but I will reply again - Arcade doesn't have a ladder system. Playing in Arcade doesn't improve our rating. SC2 is a competitive game, and players want to be rewarded for winning. Lack of proper matchmaking sucks. Lack of strategy guides/opening suck. Pros don't play mods, so the scene won't follow the mod. That's all there is to it.




And the outcome would also be terrible gameplay, lots of "hit that storm or die" situations.
Those situations were the most epic moments of Brood War - and it is missing in SC2. I never said I wanted to increase amount of spellcasters or abilities - a lot of them could be changed to passive abilities - see my suggestion for Void Ray.

but blizzard actually already increased neural back to 9range in LotV.
I missed it, my mistake.

I think blizzard is hitting their design goals with that and I believe if they just made hightech more fun than Colossus or Skytoss turtling people wouldn't complain
I think a lot of people have lost their faith in the Starcraft 2 team. Recent Carrier build time changes only show us how lost they are. Besides, the way you said it sounds like you want Protoss to either turlet or all-in every game. That's bad race design and a sign that something, somewhere, is broken.

And not just in few cases, but across the board when just change up half of the zerg race.
Zerg is supposed to be the "Swarmy" race. Current design team interprets this as free units, all I ask is more supply efficient, less cost efficient army. I might exaggerate, but Terran feels more "zergy" then Zerg.

And yes, that means you should allow people to have the most basic army moving skills of a progamer.
No, just no. Please, this is the anti-thesis of what makes competitive games fun - the joy of improving yourself. Nobody applauded when Blizzard said "oh, we also tested auto-building/auto-unit training". Make the game to easy, and there will be no pros - they won't have enough room to shine, and mere GM players will take games off them on regular basis. No one wants that.

You can easily make the game harder in other ways that are much less interfering with the most basics that everyone wants to enjoy
Please, give us a couple of examples then. And I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
November 03 2015 22:16 GMT
#89
On November 04 2015 04:30 Mjolnir wrote:
I have no issues with multi-building select, or being able to select your entire army and group it on one hotkey.

I do have issues with some of the unit design. It's blasphemous to say on this site but some units are straight up OP to the point where they dominate the strats used by that race. I won't mention them so as not to get a ban-hammer-beat-down but the balance in the game feels off. I'm not even talking about race-specific win-rates, I'm talking about balance with regard to unit parity.

Ah well, there's always the next Warcraft RTS.

have you seen this site lately? the real blasphemy seems to be saying anything positive at all about sc2.
vibeo gane,
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 22:21:45
November 03 2015 22:19 GMT
#90
If you're going to quote me, I'm going to assume that 1) You are responding to me directly and 2) You've read what I've said thus far in the topic, and are aware of what I have and have not said. I mention this because you seem to have missed both of those points.

On November 04 2015 06:12 Hider wrote:
Let's look at the actual course of events.

1. OP writes 31K words (yes that many) containing an analysis of the design flaws of Blizzard and some design suggestions

2. Everyone else goes OMG BLIZZARD YOU SUCK I AGREE WITH YOU circkle mode (you are the worst one here). No actual design-realated discussions are being had in this proces. It's just venting.

It's a lengthy, detailed post. It is an opinionated post. It also happens to be a post I agree with. Me agreeing with somebody else does not constitute a circle-jerk. If you'd like to quote things I've actually said, and show me how I'm the worst circle-jerker of them all, go ahead, but don't paint me as some ignorant jerkoff just because I hold an opinion that contradicts yours.

On November 04 2015 06:12 Hider wrote:
3. I discuss some of the flaws of OPs suggestions from a design perspective. E.g. OP wants to promote less movement based micro and more "click-micro", he also doesn't take into account that you can make abilites scale worse and that slower units doesn't become more positional but just more detahballish.

If anything, the OP holds that click-micro abilities have no place in the game, you can go back and read it again. It specifically says that abilities like the Void Ray's, abilities where you hit a button to profit, aka click-micro, has no place in the game. Do you disagree?

On November 04 2015 06:12 Hider wrote:
4. Red Vipers mentions how we should not discuss suggestions. Only design. That obviously doens't make sense because I am the only one who discusses design and everyone else are circlejerking.

We're discussing overall design of the game, not design of individual abilities. It's all design. The scope of the post concerns the larger design scheme of the game, not how the individual abilities are adjusted. Just because the discussion isn't what you thought it was does not make it a circle-jerk. In fact you throw that term around too freely, as if you're the one venting.

On November 04 2015 06:12 Hider wrote:
6. You respond how we should not discuss +5 second bunker BT. Seriously how on earth did you come up with example. I am discussing design related topics. You are not just. You are just story-telling and whining over Blizzard. That's less productive than discussing suggestions even though they are never going to be implemented.

If anything; i believe you are being disrespectful to OP: He is basically writing a master's thesis lenght document and all you do is use it to vent. Nooone is even asking into some of the specifics he says. Why not just open a new thread and call it "I WANT TO VENT-THREAD". That would make more sense for what is occuring now.

A dicussion takes place in what OP is saying and almost noone (besides one guy who talked about MBS) are doing that.


If you'll look carefully, I never said anything about 5 seconds and a Bunker. I'm seriously questioning if you actually took the time to read this thread, or if you just saw the premise of the OP, got pissed because it somehow doesn't sit with your view of the game, and now you're just attacking anyone who disagrees with you. If you want to have an intelligent discussion with me, I'm waiting, but don't project your nonsense onto me just because you can't read a thread properly.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 22:43:02
November 03 2015 22:40 GMT
#91
On November 04 2015 06:29 Nazara wrote:
Show nested quote +
And the outcome would also be terrible gameplay, lots of "hit that storm or die" situations.
Those situations were the most epic moments of Brood War - and it is missing in SC2. I never said I wanted to increase amount of spellcasters or abilities - a lot of them could be changed to passive abilities - see my suggestion for Void Ray.

I don't like those situations. I guess we have to disagree here, but there was hardly anything worse than the Archon toilet in competetive SC2.
To the Voidray suggestion. It has been mentioned from so many sides why charging up on damage is such a stupid concept:
You start of with a weak unit. You are at a disadvantage and lose out overproportionally. Eventually the Voidray is charged up. You already lost the battle!
Also it makes for really bad micro. You micro too much? You lose the charge, don't do that!
You disengage? You lost overproportionally at the start of the battle, remember? If you disengage now you are at a disadvantage for sure! Don't do that!
Though in general I do agree with rolling abilities into passives, that can be skillfully managed by players or skillfully triggered and go to waste by their opponents. E.g. a Voidray that charges downwards over time in battle, once it started to attack.

I think blizzard is hitting their design goals with that and I believe if they just made hightech more fun than Colossus or Skytoss turtling people wouldn't complain
I think a lot of people have lost their faith in the Starcraft 2 team. Recent Carrier build time changes only show us how lost they are. Besides, the way you said it sounds like you want Protoss to either turlet or all-in every game. That's bad race design and a sign that something, somewhere, is broken. [/quote]
No I didn't. I said they did a bad job with units like colossi and carriers. Teching up fast can also mean you get a fast warp prism and a disruptor or reaver for it and harass. Fast Immortal drops were once popular in PvP. Stargate openings could be interesting if the oracle wasn't such a god damn all-or-nothing unit. Lots of unit design fails, the concept of a high tier race in itself doesn't need to fail that hard. E.g. Terran mech with banshee and hellion harass.

And not just in few cases, but across the board when just change up half of the zerg race.
Zerg is supposed to be the "Swarmy" race. Current design team interprets this as free units, all I ask is more supply efficient, less cost efficient army. I might exaggerate, but Terran feels more "zergy" then Zerg.[/quote]
This goes back to economy. Without a scaling economy there cannot be a "swarmy" race, every race has to balanced around similar supply and costefficiency. You can make the hydralisk a 75/25/2 unit. You can't make it a 75/25/1 unit for as long as zealots, adepts, hellions/hellbats, marauders, roaches and many other units have the supplies they have.

And yes, that means you should allow people to have the most basic army moving skills of a progamer.
No, just no. Please, this is the anti-thesis of what makes competitive games fun - the joy of improving yourself. Nobody applauded when Blizzard said "oh, we also tested auto-building/auto-unit training". Make the game to easy, and there will be no pros - they won't have enough room to shine, and mere GM players will take games off them on regular basis. No one wants that.[/quote]
I said basic army movement skills. No that you can split like INnoVation or multitask like Polt. Players should be able to move their army from A to B as fast as the pros. Nothing more.

You can easily make the game harder in other ways that are much less interfering with the most basics that everyone wants to enjoy
Please, give us a couple of examples then. And I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious.[/QUOTE]
Preface: These are not starcraft2 suggestions. I believe SC2 is a better game than BW, which already supports my decision for things like MBS. Now the two great tools to create a "hard" competitive game without zombifying a player's core ability to just make and command lots of units:
1) Be creative with skillshots, dodgeable skills, dodgeable attacks. There is anything in the game that you cannot dodge somehow? Change it! It doesn't have to be all to practical to dodge, but it's the sum of little tools that make the game great.
Also be creative with how you specify skills! Why do we have so many set and forget skills? Why don't we "draw" AoE abilities on the ground and give them shape?
The goal is always to create tools that are easy to apply. But it shouldn't end with applying the tool. Skill is what comes after that. Or how you do that. But it should never be that you just can't do it!
2) Be creative with strategies. A textbook TvZ is: "scout for the 3allins, get 70-80drones, mass muta/ling/bling. Mass more muta/ling/bling. You lost mutas/lings/blings? Remake muta/ling/bling!" Many matchups are stuck in "stale compositions". And when there are various styles, it's usually a one-sided decision of one faction to pick a different style (Mech vs Zerg, Sky vs Zerg) that again needs "that one specific handling". The only exception here imo is TvT in HotS and WoL, which in itself offers various stylistic options whose interference lead to somewhat forced choices, but then also lead to somewhat stylistic other options, which then against may lead to somewhat forced choices which then again...
Instead design and balance properly with sound concepts (such as having a "complete Mech style" and a "complete Bio style"). Turn macro into macromanagement, the managment of decisions, not the micromanagement of pre-constructed build orders. A healthy mix of "greater strategies" and "specific requirements how to handle something with the style you play" is what should be sought.

Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 03 2015 23:17 GMT
#92
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
So I'm writing this while reading and skimming through the OP. A lot of the things have been said before and I'm not going to go point by point on everything, but here are a few bulletpoints.
  • Overkill is mostly in the game, prominently it is missing from the siege tank and marine but many other units, in particular units like stalkers, adepts or roaches suffer severely from it and it is amongst
  • Smartcast is good, it makes spells more accesible to everyone. We hear nothing but complains about the amount of abilities that you have to manually click here and there and you want to inherently increase this by a huge amount. I disagree with this sentiment. And the outcome would also be terrible gameplay, lots of "hit that storm or die" situations. Especially if you don't implement that with a control group limit at the same time, because then outmaneuvering those few spells would be just so easy, while being so demanding, that the a storm needed to do 200damage if it couldn't be spammed.
  • You suggest Neural to be tried at 8range from 7, but blizzard actually already increased neural back to 9range in LotV. In general I don't like the infestor suggestions.
  • Warpgate and early bandaids make Protoss just different from what you and many (partly including me) want it to be. That is they are a race that is forced to tech high very fast while sitting tight early. I think blizzard is hitting their design goals with that and I believe if they just made hightech more fun than Colossus or Skytoss turtling people wouldn't complain. Units like disruptors have the potential to fix this, though I think the effort isn't big enough because most Protoss hightier units are too irreplaceable by their own design.
  • Pathing is a very interesting discussion, but I'm afraid it influences too much of the game to really alter it at this point. An RTS game has to be built around it's clumping/pathing/formation options, if you alter that too much you have to go all the way back to the drawing board with stats and unit massing dynamics.
    Furthermore I gotta say that SC2 pathing - in comparison to many, especially older RTS games - gets the most important things right, which is that units take efficient paths without horrible bandaids and that they don't scatter completely or get stuck at corners and stuff. There are however quite some things that can be thrown into the discussion, from too efficient movement (damage density of singlefire units) over not efficient enough movement (units standing too close to each other suffering too much AoE when unmicroed) to the general question of whether to keep formations or clump or scatter at target locations. A lot of that is once again a question of which tools you add to the game to handle what the pathing does.
  • Many of your ideas go way over board and just have no place in SC2. You basically just introduce "new" units with an old name and skin in many cases. And not just in few cases, but across the board when just change up half of the zerg race.
  • Hydralisks are not good vs lings, they are really terrible against them. Also you just missinterprete the role of the hydralisk as that of the roach with antiair. You want a gas-cheaper hydralisk to include more gasheavy units in your compositions, but as a matter of fact when you go for a roach/hydra composition the hydralisk takes the role itself, being the more scarce "zerg-colossus" type of dps unit behind the meatshield. (in a much better way than the colossus because the hydralisk can be killed without the zerg just losing and has more distinct counters in the form of micro be it splash or focusfire)
  • I agree on the thing with Gateway units and terrain-ignoring factors pretty much completely. It is disheartening to play against Protoss when they can move their whole stalkerarmy up a cliff, tunnel through and into my army and close gaps in a heartbeat. So much micro and positioning is lost when you can't block close a ramp against adepts with queens, or your tank is just a target for blink.
  • Disagree completely with scouting. It's a number one reason why RTS games are not keeping up.
    1) new players are way too scared. If you ever watch a new player play, he will sit in his base, build canons for 10mins, make an expansion, try to make an army and then attack at 20mins. That people then turn their back and consider SC2 as boring (too much time needs to be spent preparing) and stressful (never know where the opponent is) is only logical.
    2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
    Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.
  • unlimited selection is great and a massive improvement to the enjoyability of Starcraft and RTS games in general. Even in 1999 or 2000 when I first got my hands on Starcraft my first big relief was that I could select more units than in WC2. Not all of them, but at least more.
  • Many of your arguments are the typical broodwar-fan arguments that are only about creating a hard game. Not about a fun game. I think this line of thought suffers from a distinct lack of imagination. You can easily make the game harder in other ways that are much less interfering with the most basics that everyone wants to enjoy. And yes, that means you should allow people to have the most basic army moving skills of a progamer. Because that's so core to the game that you gotta ask yourself why you play a game that is said to be all about big armies when you have to spend hours, days, weeks just that this big army actually starts making sense.


Sure I haven't covered everything


I just had to delete my paragraph because you already said it with this epic post--damn/thank you.
Clear World
Profile Joined April 2015
125 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-03 23:24:45
November 03 2015 23:22 GMT
#93
On November 04 2015 06:29 Nazara wrote:
Show nested quote +
And yes, that means you should allow people to have the most basic army moving skills of a progamer.
No, just no. Please, this is the anti-thesis of what makes competitive games fun - the joy of improving yourself. Nobody applauded when Blizzard said "oh, we also tested auto-building/auto-unit training". Make the game to easy, and there will be no pros - they won't have enough room to shine, and mere GM players will take games off them on regular basis. No one wants that.


Though I agree with what most of what BigJ wrote already, your mention of the auto-builiding/auto-unit training misses the the BIG difference between the unlimited movement and auto-building.

The choice from the player.

Nothing prevents players from not grouping large armies, but they choose to. That is not bad for the game, but it obviously requires a different set of parameters of how the game is designed and balanced.


:p <-- this is my sarcasm face
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 03 2015 23:33 GMT
#94
On November 03 2015 18:22 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
There is no point in discussing actual suggestions as long as these suggestions don't come from blizzard or someone who could make blizzard listen.
I know you like to propose actual suggestions yourself a lot, but tbh it's pointless. General design ideas are more interesting to discuss.


In that regard, OP's 10K words are also pointless because nothing of it is gonna happen, but you can still have a discussion. My little vent had nothing to do with discussion suggestions or not. Instead, my point is the ridiculous circlejerk where people hate X and then they see Y that is the opposite of X, and love every single thing about Y.

Since noone actually seemed to comment on the specifics, it semes that I am the only one who actuall critically read what he wrote.

But ofc I overall agree with his philsophy that LOTV could have been so much more. But rewarding more clicks for the sake of clicks is not turning LOTV into a better game.

Show nested quote +
StarBow may be the only real successful mod to come from people claiming to make a better game than SC2 but you have plenty that sucked.


All the "great" stuff came from BW from BW numbers, design and balance. In terms of new innovative stuff, what is "succesful" about Starbow?

Mods don't work; partly because the arcade is bad, but also because the designers of the mod aren't competent + cannot work full time on it.


kespa came into existence by ignoring the ladder and having everyone play their MOD of BW. They increased the game speed, added some out of game rules of glitches you're not allowed to use, and had a player base who never had to buy the game due to PC bangs and piracy.

Mods work. The only reason MODS don't become successful or big is because for the most part they're worse than the actual game for majority of players.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
November 03 2015 23:36 GMT
#95
On November 04 2015 08:33 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Mods work. The only reason MODS don't become successful or big is because for the most part they're worse than the actual game for majority of players.


Not really, since StarBow came the number 1 problem is and has always been the fact that there is no ladder, it doesn't matter if there is thousands playing if finding a game with some one of similar skill didn't take more time than playing the game itself.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 03 2015 23:57 GMT
#96
On November 04 2015 08:36 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 08:33 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Mods work. The only reason MODS don't become successful or big is because for the most part they're worse than the actual game for majority of players.


Not really, since StarBow came the number 1 problem is and has always been the fact that there is no ladder, it doesn't matter if there is thousands playing if finding a game with some one of similar skill didn't take more time than playing the game itself.


Kespa and the MOBA scene highly disagrees with your assessment. Good MODs that have the gameplay the majority enjoy gets popular and becomes a scene all to themselves. There's a reason BW is played on the fastest speed--and its not because its what was supported by the ladder.
DanceSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States751 Posts
November 04 2015 00:24 GMT
#97
I have a problem with a lot of the complaints about the direction of LotV. First of all, the game isn't even out yet, with all of the changes that blizzard is bringing to the table, the meta has plenty of room to adapt and change. Just stating that the game is full of 'bandaids' and 'cover ups without addressing the real problem' is ignorance. Just because it goes against what YOU think the game should be doesn't make it the wrong direction. I personally like the changes and the more that I look over them the more depth I see to blizzards decision making. Although I could go on for hours about every little thing in LotV here are my thoughts on the Photon Overcharge and why I like it:

Cost: The lower cost is better because it allows the mothership core to cover more areas of a base. This in turn forces the protoss player to be more active with the positioning of the mothership core, and reduces the drawback from players who threaten a base simply to bait out a photon overcharge (before rendering the msc completely useless). In HotS saw the mothership core sitting between the main and nat, and in late game between the nat and the third. Now the mothership core is no longer be tethered to or between the nexus, and can be used to prevent pylon sniping or even tech targeting.

Target: I believe that the pylon is the better choice over a nexus simply because it also strengthens another aspect of a "build order" and that is the positioning of the buildings. Players will have to balance clustering pylons for defense, and also spreading them out for building power and vision. Before players were hesitant about using pylons on the edge of their base for extra vision because they were vulnerable to drops.

Range and Damage: It make sense that the range and duration get cut, as well as increasing the damage. I like the idea of having to use 3+ photon over charges to cover the same area that the old one once covered, it feels like the game is focusing more on the smaller engagements rather then one huge photon overcharge covering everything. Now players feel safer spreading out their pylons for vision as they provide both map vision (like creep tumors) and area coverage.

If we compare PO to the queens transfusion ability, the queen has a limited amount of transfuses to use just like the msc has a limited amount of photon overcharges, and each one can influence the tide of battle by either applying damage or removing it, defensively or offensively. If we compare it to the terrans ability to repair buildings we have the same scenario, terran sacrifice scv time to keep a structure alive. A protoss player can force field the workers away from the bunker, just like a terran player can take out the mother ship core. Both terran and zerg have the ability to keep buildings alive, it makes sense that protoss have the ability to apply damage with threatened ones.
Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 04 2015 02:07 GMT
#98
All these threads are so misguided from the start. How many times do you need to be reminded that if you "remove" all the UI simplifications (that is, add UI barriers), nobody except for a couple hardcores will play the game? It does not matter at all that it would be "better" in some obscenely sublime way, because it would be a complete flop. What is the point of a perfect competitive game that is played by a hundred of players?

You have all the space in the arcade for stuff like this, but please, for the love of what is holy to your favourite SC race, if you want to discuss the direction of the "real" SC2, you just need to be realistic. Otherwise is just empty nonsense.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 02:56:40
November 04 2015 02:44 GMT
#99
On November 04 2015 11:07 opisska wrote:
All these threads are so misguided from the start. How many times do you need to be reminded that if you "remove" all the UI simplifications (that is, add UI barriers), nobody except for a couple hardcores will play the game? It does not matter at all that it would be "better" in some obscenely sublime way, because it would be a complete flop. What is the point of a perfect competitive game that is played by a hundred of players?

You have all the space in the arcade for stuff like this, but please, for the love of what is holy to your favourite SC race, if you want to discuss the direction of the "real" SC2, you just need to be realistic. Otherwise is just empty nonsense.

Even if I don't really agree that UI limitations would be good to get back, I think it's not such a big deal as some people think. It's not like people were really bothered by being only allowed to select 12 units at a time in bw for example. It's just not that big a deal. The less hardcore players kept playing for years! Even 3v3 and UMS, on ICCup! Actually right now I just logged in even though it is nearly 4am GMT+1 there are UMS, 2v2 and 3v3 games lol.
I think possibly, it is the more hardcore players who are the most bothered, because to them optimizing speed is more important. Controversial...
I'm sure there would be lots of people complaining about it if SC2 had a limited unit selection to 12, but it still wouldn't be such a big deal. Not that I think it would be better. It kinda puzzles me, I would be so curious to test unlimited unit selection in bw, + MBS + automine so we can finally see if it impacts the game negatively or not.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 03:12:25
November 04 2015 03:05 GMT
#100
On November 04 2015 11:07 opisska wrote:
All these threads are so misguided from the start. How many times do you need to be reminded that if you "remove" all the UI simplifications (that is, add UI barriers), nobody except for a couple hardcores will play the game? It does not matter at all that it would be "better" in some obscenely sublime way, because it would be a complete flop. What is the point of a perfect competitive game that is played by a hundred of players?

You have all the space in the arcade for stuff like this, but please, for the love of what is holy to your favourite SC race, if you want to discuss the direction of the "real" SC2, you just need to be realistic. Otherwise is just empty nonsense.

I don't necessarily agree about the unlimited selection in SC2 either, I think it can be perfectly fine. I think it made little difference in BW, because the way units behaved, you wanted to manage them in small groups anyway. I think any effort directed at unlimited unit selection should perhaps be redirected into figuring out how to make units work best in small groups, be it through pathing, or what the unit actually does. It should theoretically achieve the same end we saw with BW.

However, the points regarding the UI are but one of many regarding all the design principles, or lack thereof, in SC2. Just think if air units weren't as powerful as they are, harassment wouldn't be the order of the day, and with some proper highground advantage, terrain features would really, seriously, matter. Imagine if Protoss had a repertoire of solid units early on, and didn't require a rolling photon cannon to defend their bases. Imagine if the three races lived up to the visions laid out for them in BW, with playstyles to match. Imagine if Macro Boosters were never in the picture, the pace of the game would be easier to grasp, you wouldn't have the time compression they bring to the table, and balance would be so much simpler to work out in some cases. There's so much more to this thread than what he says about the UI. Don't dismiss the whole thing just because you disagree with a single point.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Designator
Profile Joined September 2015
11 Posts
November 04 2015 04:49 GMT
#101
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 04 2015 08:35 GMT
#102
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 09:59:45
November 04 2015 09:31 GMT
#103
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.


Outside of very early cheeses (proxy gates/barracks, 2nd pylon stargate), all races have tools to reliably scout the map though. Terrans have reapers, scan (although completely unpractical), and generally can afford 1-2 stray marines/SCVs. Zergs have overlords, stray lings and creep. Protoss have stalkers (early game),hallucination, the Msc and observers later on.

Yes, losing to proxy is infuriating and frustrating (especially when it happens repeatedly). But scouting/having a good mapvision is also a skill that should be rewarded. I remember a recent game where a protoss tried to proxy INnoVation, and the casters went "why is he even trying that, he should know that a player like INnoVation will find it", and indeed, INno scouted the proxy with his reaper. IMHO, the problem is more that even scouted, some cheeses/all-ins are tougher to defend than to execute. And that should not be the case, the burden should be on the player "trying to make the play" as you said.
LDaVinci
Profile Joined May 2014
France130 Posts
November 04 2015 13:44 GMT
#104
I just install warcraft 1, I'm sure you would love it as a competitive game :
no control group cause no group at all. All unit (and buildings) must be selected 1 by 1 through the mouse.
no "smart" click. If you right click nothing happen. You must move, attack or whatever through the keyboard.
pathing is shitty. Unit go the wrong way always and if you want to correct it, the reactivity is so slow

There might be other stuff but I just installed it and did few campaign games. So I don't know yet. But clearly I would say the skill ceiling is so high since you have to control every unit one by one and if you don't they take poor decision.

By the way, though I'm being kindda ironical here I find this game awesome for now. But I much prefer SC2 as a competitive game. MUCH prefer. I will agree with you that there is probably some way to make it better, but maybe we should stop looking at the past.
Those who refuse to become better, already stop being good
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 04 2015 14:08 GMT
#105
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 14:40:59
November 04 2015 14:29 GMT
#106
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it. It also encourages you to try to distract the Z when going on creep by harrassing somewhere else.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 04 2015 14:32 GMT
#107
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 04 2015 15:23 GMT
#108
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 04 2015 15:26 GMT
#109
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 04 2015 15:29 GMT
#110
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 04 2015 15:56 GMT
#111
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 04 2015 16:03 GMT
#112
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.


My argument is similar to Big J which is that the best way for a new player to actually be willing to go out to the map is if it was easier to see the map. Creep Spread has created a fantastic way to dictate, guide, and force action in the game. How easy/hard it is to spread is something that can be patched--but it has done nothing but fantastic things for the game as it has allowed both an easy way to dictate map presence without needing to reach max supply or having units run around non-stop. The same thing happened in Mech BW where the main army did not need to be spread everywhere are Mines provided vision and deterrence.

The difference between creep and mines comes from strength of deterrence and strength of vision. Creep gives better vision but mines gave better deterrence. In either case, it's always interesting watching players clear paths, poking each other's borders over and over without having it be a committed engagement each time.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 16:22:05
November 04 2015 16:12 GMT
#113
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
On November 04 2015 05:19 Big J wrote:
2) The burden should always be on the player that wants to "make the play". It should be hard to to hide your strategy. That's what we call defenders advantage. MobA's achieve that in a spectacularily easy way: They give you vision of most of the map. It's rather simple to track opponent's not being where they should be due to tower and creep vision. This leads to very stable gameplay in which surprise tactics are considered great highlights that require high amounts of skill (coordination, tempo) instead cheap cheeses that require high amounts of skill to stop ("oh, I didn't find Waldo").
Imo future RTS games should consider inverting fog of war for that, i.e. the map is revealed and you building structures (or similar mechanics to creep spread) is what creates fog of war around your bases and on the map.


This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.

I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.

I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 04 2015 16:26 GMT
#114
On November 05 2015 01:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
[quote]

This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.


My argument is similar to Big J which is that the best way for a new player to actually be willing to go out to the map is if it was easier to see the map. Creep Spread has created a fantastic way to dictate, guide, and force action in the game. How easy/hard it is to spread is something that can be patched--but it has done nothing but fantastic things for the game as it has allowed both an easy way to dictate map presence without needing to reach max supply or having units run around non-stop. The same thing happened in Mech BW where the main army did not need to be spread everywhere are Mines provided vision and deterrence.

The difference between creep and mines comes from strength of deterrence and strength of vision. Creep gives better vision but mines gave better deterrence. In either case, it's always interesting watching players clear paths, poking each other's borders over and over without having it be a committed engagement each time.

The best way for a new player to be willing to be out of the map is to FORCE him to be out on the map.
Creeps do this in mobas, the bomb situation does this in csgo.
Easy vision makes defensive play stronger, which leads to less action (less fun). That is how i see it atm.

Creep kinda forces action (but not really), so i don't think it is a good tool to get the game going either. (also zerg being the most mobile race makes it questionable to have such a strong defensive tool on it imo, observers for toss make a lot more sense)
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 04 2015 17:09 GMT
#115
You don't seem to see a big flaw in your fog of war mechanic.
If you allow to see starting positions , you will produce a turtle fest. Imagine zvz with overlords over every mineral field right from the start. The player who puts his spawning pool first will be always in disadvantage - you put down your pool, I put down hatch and then pool , still defending your rush but being in better economical position.

If I can put a building up and shroud your vision, I can put down a hatch or a pool and you will still be forced to scout anyway. In pvt I will do it asap and still rush an oracle. Same goes for other matchups.

If you don't allow to see inside the main or natural, you have achieved nothing. I can still prepare a cheese if I deny you scouting and fly with an Oracle or banshee into your base, and seeing it on the map travelling will not give you enough time to prepare anyway.

If you put the shroud high in tech tree I will just look at your base and prepare a perfect counter for whatever your tech path is till you are able to put fog of war.

I can't imagine a way of making this work, probably because it doesn't.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 17:31:50
November 04 2015 17:20 GMT
#116
On November 05 2015 02:09 Nazara wrote:
You don't seem to see a big flaw in your fog of war mechanic.
If you allow to see starting positions , you will produce a turtle fest. Imagine zvz with overlords over every mineral field right from the start. The player who puts his spawning pool first will be always in disadvantage - you put down your pool, I put down hatch and then pool , still defending your rush but being in better economical position.

If I can put a building up and shroud your vision, I can put down a hatch or a pool and you will still be forced to scout anyway. In pvt I will do it asap and still rush an oracle. Same goes for other matchups.

If you don't allow to see inside the main or natural, you have achieved nothing. I can still prepare a cheese if I deny you scouting and fly with an Oracle or banshee into your base, and seeing it on the map travelling will not give you enough time to prepare anyway.

If you put the shroud high in tech tree I will just look at your base and prepare a perfect counter for whatever your tech path is till you are able to put fog of war.

I can't imagine a way of making this work, probably because it doesn't.

don't take it to literal for starcraft because it obviously would not work without massive changes in everything. but as far as I understand it, you start SC2 with a building, hence in the fog of war with that mechanic so you won't know when the opponent makes the pool.
And yes, what you describe is exactly the point: your base is still hidden and the opponent still has to scout. The rest of the map is not and so you don't have to hide when there is no actual pressure.

As you mention ZvZ, it is actually in parts already working that way. You place your first overlord im front of the opponents natural and then you basically know everything that is going on on the map for a long time, as you see everything that leaves the opponent's base. Also we can see that it doesnt lead to turtlefests. Because the tools in ZvZ (insane production, units reinforcing fast, no walls) rather make it so that it is actually too easy to enforce on your knowledge about what the opponent is doing. In short, you prevent turtling by creating tools for your game that work within the ruleset.
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 04 2015 17:31 GMT
#117
You have pointed out to me that my suggestions would require big changes to zerg or go way overboard, yet you have no problem suggesting a mechanic that hasn't been tried or tested in any rts, or at least those that I know of.
And yes I take it quite literally, we may be talking about rts design in general, but this thread is starcraft focused.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 04 2015 17:32 GMT
#118
On November 05 2015 02:09 Nazara wrote:
You don't seem to see a big flaw in your fog of war mechanic.
If you allow to see starting positions , you will produce a turtle fest. Imagine zvz with overlords over every mineral field right from the start. The player who puts his spawning pool first will be always in disadvantage - you put down your pool, I put down hatch and then pool , still defending your rush but being in better economical position.

If I can put a building up and shroud your vision, I can put down a hatch or a pool and you will still be forced to scout anyway. In pvt I will do it asap and still rush an oracle. Same goes for other matchups.

If you don't allow to see inside the main or natural, you have achieved nothing. I can still prepare a cheese if I deny you scouting and fly with an Oracle or banshee into your base, and seeing it on the map travelling will not give you enough time to prepare anyway.

If you put the shroud high in tech tree I will just look at your base and prepare a perfect counter for whatever your tech path is till you are able to put fog of war.

I can't imagine a way of making this work, probably because it doesn't.


Getting caught in the specifics of a concept before finding agreement in the design goals of a concept sounds counterproductive.

Big J is wondering if its good for the game to have more map visibility in the early game, but less in the later game. How that is implemented (and the logic as to why it happens) is arbitrary.

fenix404
Profile Joined May 2011
United States305 Posts
November 04 2015 17:39 GMT
#119
dota 2 has a better high ground mechanic, while sc2 has none (vision is not a high ground advantage mechanic)

%25 miss chance isn't hurting dota 2's numbers.

sc2 is as flat as LoL or Heroes.

if they had put in miss chance since WoL, many all-ins would have been nerfed simply through map design.

map design is also lackluster, probably because ramps don't actually matter.

if you need one thing in this game its miss chance for shooting uphill. why this was ever somehow off the table for an RTS game baffles me to no end.
"think for yourself, question authority"
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 04 2015 17:47 GMT
#120
First we need to determine if giving such a vision is beneficial to the game at all. In my opinion it is better to just start a new ip with such a big change.
You seem to argue that because lowest depth of bronze league doesn't scout at all, you need to help them by changing basic principle of rts games.
A solution is to simply give them a proper tutorial introducing them to basics and importance of scouting, and leaving single units across the map to gain vision in crucial areas.
Your idea is like giving a toggle button that will auto build scv's until saturation is reached because they don't know they need more workers.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 17:50:36
November 04 2015 17:49 GMT
#121
On November 05 2015 02:31 Nazara wrote:
You have pointed out to me that my suggestions would require big changes to zerg or go way overboard, yet you have no problem suggesting a mechanic that hasn't been tried or tested in any rts, or at least those that I know of.
And yes I take it quite literally, we may be talking about rts design in general, but this thread is starcraft focused.

I did not suggest this mechanic to starcraft. The whole idea was only shortly described as an addendum in my answer to you. I didnt mean to start a discussion or use it as a counterproposal but saw including it beneficial to explaining a stance of mine.
I may as well have left it out for the argument in which I included it.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 04 2015 17:57 GMT
#122
On November 05 2015 02:47 Nazara wrote:
First we need to determine if giving such a vision is beneficial to the game at all. In my opinion it is better to just start a new ip with such a big change.
You seem to argue that because lowest depth of bronze league doesn't scout at all, you need to help them by changing basic principle of rts games.
A solution is to simply give them a proper tutorial introducing them to basics and importance of scouting, and leaving single units across the map to gain vision in crucial areas.
Your idea is like giving a toggle button that will auto build scv's until saturation is reached because they don't know they need more workers.


Once more, you're getting too caught up in the specific example instead of discussing the actual design concept.

Big J suggested map vision--but it could be a lot of other things as well. A starting scout unit (like some of the "age of" RTS games) or a race specific "map reveal" for the first X minutes/seconds. For example, a one time satellite ping for Terran that simply gives you the same info as a global Sensor gives you--a red dot for enemy units/buildings, or maybe a one time "robotic drone" fly by from the command center that flies across the map. It can be as big (or small) as is needed.

The idea is that the current system of sending out a civilian/worker to do a military job (scouting) does not feel natural or look natural.
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 04 2015 18:00 GMT
#123
I missed the "in future games" in your response. that's why I thought it is something you would like in sc2, especially after others have hijacked the thread with the idea.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
November 04 2015 18:28 GMT
#124
On November 05 2015 01:12 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 13:49 Designator wrote:
[quote]

This ^ sounds very intriguing. It would also make invisible units (and nydus worms) more special for their ability to get across the map unseen... great analysis!


Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.

I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.

I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.


TOPIC: Fog of War is a relic.

I suggested something along these lines in another thread--I believe the thread was discussing lore and logic inconsistencies in the game rules.

Essentially: these three extremely advanced space-faring races would easily be able to see the entire theater unless specifically impeded. The Fog of War mechanic is a relic left over from the Warcraft 2 days, when it made more sense.

Why can my marine only see like 15 strides in front of him? It makes no sense.

Why can't an Overlord basically see the entire map, except for some spots beneath cliffs and ledges?

It could be argued that you could do it the other way. Each race has specific ways to hide what they are doing: cloaking, radar jamming, decoys, camouflage, moving silently, etc ... It could be done in interesting ways where collecting intel could still be required, fun, and interesting, but removes the silliness of an entire army "showing up out of nowhere".

You guys get it. Back in the Command and Conquer: Red Alert days, once you built an Airstrip (I think it was) you gained a minimap, and vision of the whole map. Then, each race had ways to "jam" the other person's radar, requiring units to make visual contact to confirm intel.

But, in the end, it's a game, and the rules are there to enhance gameplay, not to simulate or even hint at realism. SC2 is a game of severely limited information, where each unit is incredibly blind, has perfect aim, and can hear and see in 360 degrees at all times. All interesting choices, surely. But an RTS could easily experiment with simple differences that could create hugely complicated results!

Is this kinda what you're getting at, BigJ?

I wonder if Atlas's new RTS will have Fog of War. I'm guessing it will ...
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 04 2015 19:23 GMT
#125
On November 05 2015 03:28 TimeSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 01:12 Big J wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]

Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.

I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.

I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.


TOPIC: Fog of War is a relic.

I suggested something along these lines in another thread--I believe the thread was discussing lore and logic inconsistencies in the game rules.

Essentially: these three extremely advanced space-faring races would easily be able to see the entire theater unless specifically impeded. The Fog of War mechanic is a relic left over from the Warcraft 2 days, when it made more sense.

Why can my marine only see like 15 strides in front of him? It makes no sense.

Why can't an Overlord basically see the entire map, except for some spots beneath cliffs and ledges?

It could be argued that you could do it the other way. Each race has specific ways to hide what they are doing: cloaking, radar jamming, decoys, camouflage, moving silently, etc ... It could be done in interesting ways where collecting intel could still be required, fun, and interesting, but removes the silliness of an entire army "showing up out of nowhere".

You guys get it. Back in the Command and Conquer: Red Alert days, once you built an Airstrip (I think it was) you gained a minimap, and vision of the whole map. Then, each race had ways to "jam" the other person's radar, requiring units to make visual contact to confirm intel.

But, in the end, it's a game, and the rules are there to enhance gameplay, not to simulate or even hint at realism. SC2 is a game of severely limited information, where each unit is incredibly blind, has perfect aim, and can hear and see in 360 degrees at all times. All interesting choices, surely. But an RTS could easily experiment with simple differences that could create hugely complicated results!

Is this kinda what you're getting at, BigJ?

I wonder if Atlas's new RTS will have Fog of War. I'm guessing it will ...


I've never played an RTS with non-360 vision. That just blew my mind. Squad games, small scale games, turn based games--sure. It sounds like a great thing to experiment on. Blind spots for different units forcing players to have to babysit them even while "turtling."

Sorry--just thought it's a very easy way to give players more things to do even when not on the offensive. And allows active players to gain advantages by flanking maneuvers and traps. Like, you could use hellions to do hit and run strikes against tanks and stalkers that are on the move. Set traps by hiding behind terrain and jumping on enemy troops as they pass. It sounds fantastic actually.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
November 04 2015 20:39 GMT
#126
On November 05 2015 04:23 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 03:28 TimeSpiral wrote:
On November 05 2015 01:12 Big J wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.

I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.

I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.


TOPIC: Fog of War is a relic.

I suggested something along these lines in another thread--I believe the thread was discussing lore and logic inconsistencies in the game rules.

Essentially: these three extremely advanced space-faring races would easily be able to see the entire theater unless specifically impeded. The Fog of War mechanic is a relic left over from the Warcraft 2 days, when it made more sense.

Why can my marine only see like 15 strides in front of him? It makes no sense.

Why can't an Overlord basically see the entire map, except for some spots beneath cliffs and ledges?

It could be argued that you could do it the other way. Each race has specific ways to hide what they are doing: cloaking, radar jamming, decoys, camouflage, moving silently, etc ... It could be done in interesting ways where collecting intel could still be required, fun, and interesting, but removes the silliness of an entire army "showing up out of nowhere".

You guys get it. Back in the Command and Conquer: Red Alert days, once you built an Airstrip (I think it was) you gained a minimap, and vision of the whole map. Then, each race had ways to "jam" the other person's radar, requiring units to make visual contact to confirm intel.

But, in the end, it's a game, and the rules are there to enhance gameplay, not to simulate or even hint at realism. SC2 is a game of severely limited information, where each unit is incredibly blind, has perfect aim, and can hear and see in 360 degrees at all times. All interesting choices, surely. But an RTS could easily experiment with simple differences that could create hugely complicated results!

Is this kinda what you're getting at, BigJ?

I wonder if Atlas's new RTS will have Fog of War. I'm guessing it will ...


I've never played an RTS with non-360 vision. That just blew my mind. Squad games, small scale games, turn based games--sure. It sounds like a great thing to experiment on. Blind spots for different units forcing players to have to babysit them even while "turtling."

Sorry--just thought it's a very easy way to give players more things to do even when not on the offensive. And allows active players to gain advantages by flanking maneuvers and traps. Like, you could use hellions to do hit and run strikes against tanks and stalkers that are on the move. Set traps by hiding behind terrain and jumping on enemy troops as they pass. It sounds fantastic actually.


Haha. Cool! I just watched your mind get blown. I think it's easy to fall into the trap of "this is what an RTS is" when you've played SC or SC2 for so long, and we might forget some of the extremely basic questions a game designers asks themselves in the beginning.

I don't think any of the things I mentioned would be appropriate for SC2--just to clarify--because those fundamental design decision were already made, and even a seemingly simple change at that level would have dramatic cascading effects into the other layers of the game.

Imagine if units didn't have perfect accuracy? Now, all of the sudden, you have to consider what affects accuracy. Is it harder to hit a moving target? Is it easier to hit an opponent below you? Could my weapon upgrades also increase my accuracy? Could my armor upgrade increase the chances that I block or evade an incoming blow? I'm not saying I want this. It just seems in the nature of this thread to talk about radically different design directions. Sorry if I'm derailing too much.
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 04 2015 21:45 GMT
#127
On November 05 2015 05:39 TimeSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 04:23 Naracs_Duc wrote:
On November 05 2015 03:28 TimeSpiral wrote:
On November 05 2015 01:12 Big J wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
[quote]

In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.

I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.

I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.


TOPIC: Fog of War is a relic.

I suggested something along these lines in another thread--I believe the thread was discussing lore and logic inconsistencies in the game rules.

Essentially: these three extremely advanced space-faring races would easily be able to see the entire theater unless specifically impeded. The Fog of War mechanic is a relic left over from the Warcraft 2 days, when it made more sense.

Why can my marine only see like 15 strides in front of him? It makes no sense.

Why can't an Overlord basically see the entire map, except for some spots beneath cliffs and ledges?

It could be argued that you could do it the other way. Each race has specific ways to hide what they are doing: cloaking, radar jamming, decoys, camouflage, moving silently, etc ... It could be done in interesting ways where collecting intel could still be required, fun, and interesting, but removes the silliness of an entire army "showing up out of nowhere".

You guys get it. Back in the Command and Conquer: Red Alert days, once you built an Airstrip (I think it was) you gained a minimap, and vision of the whole map. Then, each race had ways to "jam" the other person's radar, requiring units to make visual contact to confirm intel.

But, in the end, it's a game, and the rules are there to enhance gameplay, not to simulate or even hint at realism. SC2 is a game of severely limited information, where each unit is incredibly blind, has perfect aim, and can hear and see in 360 degrees at all times. All interesting choices, surely. But an RTS could easily experiment with simple differences that could create hugely complicated results!

Is this kinda what you're getting at, BigJ?

I wonder if Atlas's new RTS will have Fog of War. I'm guessing it will ...


I've never played an RTS with non-360 vision. That just blew my mind. Squad games, small scale games, turn based games--sure. It sounds like a great thing to experiment on. Blind spots for different units forcing players to have to babysit them even while "turtling."

Sorry--just thought it's a very easy way to give players more things to do even when not on the offensive. And allows active players to gain advantages by flanking maneuvers and traps. Like, you could use hellions to do hit and run strikes against tanks and stalkers that are on the move. Set traps by hiding behind terrain and jumping on enemy troops as they pass. It sounds fantastic actually.


Haha. Cool! I just watched your mind get blown. I think it's easy to fall into the trap of "this is what an RTS is" when you've played SC or SC2 for so long, and we might forget some of the extremely basic questions a game designers asks themselves in the beginning.

I don't think any of the things I mentioned would be appropriate for SC2--just to clarify--because those fundamental design decision were already made, and even a seemingly simple change at that level would have dramatic cascading effects into the other layers of the game.

Imagine if units didn't have perfect accuracy? Now, all of the sudden, you have to consider what affects accuracy. Is it harder to hit a moving target? Is it easier to hit an opponent below you? Could my weapon upgrades also increase my accuracy? Could my armor upgrade increase the chances that I block or evade an incoming blow? I'm not saying I want this. It just seems in the nature of this thread to talk about radically different design directions. Sorry if I'm derailing too much.


I wouldn't say you're derailing. But I love exploring non-damage-point options for chit interactions in games. One of my favorite things in most warhammer-esque games (Mechwarrior Dark Age was my fave) was the concept of blind spots, shooting range, and unit rotation affecting combat and non-combat maneuvers. Directionalities that units could shoot towards, could not shoot towards, and are even weak at.

Lings and zealots could fights a clump of marines just by flanking them (for example), hiding in hitting from two sides actually decreasing the deathball damage points not just from the spread, but from the inability for some units to focus fire appropriately. etc...

And that's just exploring vision limitations + unit maneuverability variations. Suddenly fast but melee can fight slow but ranged without having to do any weird damage bonus modifiers without having to make units have clunky controls.

But if we actually explored what board games already inhabit--we would truly have an interesting dynamic.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
November 04 2015 22:13 GMT
#128
On November 05 2015 03:28 TimeSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 01:12 Big J wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 17:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]

Creep is one of the best improvements in SC2. I wish all 3 races had something similar. Something that gives the player vision of the map that required player control but did not take up supply.

I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.

I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.

I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.


TOPIC: Fog of War is a relic.

I suggested something along these lines in another thread--I believe the thread was discussing lore and logic inconsistencies in the game rules.

Essentially: these three extremely advanced space-faring races would easily be able to see the entire theater unless specifically impeded. The Fog of War mechanic is a relic left over from the Warcraft 2 days, when it made more sense.

Why can my marine only see like 15 strides in front of him? It makes no sense.

Why can't an Overlord basically see the entire map, except for some spots beneath cliffs and ledges?

It could be argued that you could do it the other way. Each race has specific ways to hide what they are doing: cloaking, radar jamming, decoys, camouflage, moving silently, etc ... It could be done in interesting ways where collecting intel could still be required, fun, and interesting, but removes the silliness of an entire army "showing up out of nowhere".

You guys get it. Back in the Command and Conquer: Red Alert days, once you built an Airstrip (I think it was) you gained a minimap, and vision of the whole map. Then, each race had ways to "jam" the other person's radar, requiring units to make visual contact to confirm intel.

But, in the end, it's a game, and the rules are there to enhance gameplay, not to simulate or even hint at realism. SC2 is a game of severely limited information, where each unit is incredibly blind, has perfect aim, and can hear and see in 360 degrees at all times. All interesting choices, surely. But an RTS could easily experiment with simple differences that could create hugely complicated results!

Is this kinda what you're getting at, BigJ?

I wonder if Atlas's new RTS will have Fog of War. I'm guessing it will ...


Pretty much. There are many rules you can implement to solve a specific problem. Fog of war intially dealt with the problem that players would "suicide" a unit early to track what the other player was doing all game long. (you explored the opponents base and keep vision of it all game long)
I believe that in today's competitive and semicompetitive enviroment such "relics" as you call them are not the optimal solution. As I, and Thieving Magpie said before, this solution leads to a large anxiety amongst newer or more casual players, as they are in the constant fear of possible attacks. Additionally it leads players to position units defensively when there is no need to, simply because the fog of war creates a scenario in which you don't know whether an enemy oracle is just leaving the base, or whehter it is "just 15strides away" as you call it.
I don't think fog of war is bad, having certain elements of "controlled chance" that aren't really chance but hidden, theoritcally trackable decisions is good. I plainly believe that fog of war goas quite overboard.

As you said, RTS games could experiment more on these fronts. Fog of war wasn't a given thing in the 90s, it was a possible solution to certain problems. I can only theorycraft about my presented concept, but in practice we have only seen complete fog of war, or no fog of war at all. I think there is a lot of room for creativity between (what I presented) or fundamentally different from it.


On November 05 2015 03:00 Nazara wrote:
I missed the "in future games" in your response. that's why I thought it is something you would like in sc2, especially after others have hijacked the thread with the idea.

No offense taken. I will try to leave this discussion about "my idea for vision" here, as you are right that this is not really the place to discuss it.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 04 2015 22:27 GMT
#129
Then where exactly is the place to discuss it? I think general game design discussions are great, there should be a place for it :D
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
November 04 2015 22:32 GMT
#130
I'm not the OP, but I'm ok with this kind of discussion. The thread is about grand schemes of design anyway, and nothing we say is going to change anything about SC2, the devs are set in their ways. Might as well talk about other shit.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
DanceSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States751 Posts
November 05 2015 00:05 GMT
#131
On November 05 2015 02:47 Nazara wrote:
First we need to determine if giving such a vision is beneficial to the game at all. In my opinion it is better to just start a new ip with such a big change.
You seem to argue that because lowest depth of bronze league doesn't scout at all, you need to help them by changing basic principle of rts games.
A solution is to simply give them a proper tutorial introducing them to basics and importance of scouting, and leaving single units across the map to gain vision in crucial areas.
Your idea is like giving a toggle button that will auto build scv's until saturation is reached because they don't know they need more workers.

Teach a man to fish, I wish more people saw it this way.
Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY
Clear World
Profile Joined April 2015
125 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-05 00:23:43
November 05 2015 00:21 GMT
#132
I still want to talk about this vision thing, since it does touch on a topic that I find worth talking about, the anxiety that people feel. Changes to balance is one thing, but actually talking directly about things that create anxiety is something many people shouldn't be ignoring.

Pretty much. There are many rules you can implement to solve a specific problem. Fog of war intially dealt with the problem that players would "suicide" a unit early to track what the other player was doing all game long. (you explored the opponents base and keep vision of it all game long)
I believe that in today's competitive and semicompetitive enviroment such "relics" as you call them are not the optimal solution. As I, and Thieving Magpie said before, this solution leads to a large anxiety amongst newer or more casual players, as they are in the constant fear of possible attacks. Additionally it leads players to position units defensively when there is no need to, simply because the fog of war creates a scenario in which you don't know whether an enemy oracle is just leaving the base, or whehter it is "just 15strides away" as you call it.
I don't think fog of war is bad, having certain elements of "controlled chance" that aren't really chance but hidden, theoritcally trackable decisions is good. I plainly believe that fog of war goas quite overboard.


First, I wouldn't call Fog of war a 'relic'. The way it works can be tweaked, but the concept of how it works, in my opinion, is good for the game. Especially for a game like SC. I'm hope I'm not misinterperting your goal Big J, based on the last two pages, but it sounds like a large reason for this idea for you is because of the anxiety it can create to newer or casual players. It is true that the unknown can be scary, but anxiety isn't just caused by the unknown but what the effect the unknown casues.

As you said, RTS games could experiment more on these fronts. Fog of war wasn't a given thing in the 90s, it was a possible solution to certain problems. I can only theorycraft about my presented concept, but in practice we have only seen complete fog of war, or no fog of war at all. I think there is a lot of room for creativity between (what I presented) or fundamentally different from it.


Using the idea that you brought up, completely vision except for the genearl areas where buildings are located. If you start with that concept, than the first road block would be: it would make nearly every non-all-in attack pointless since the defend will know where and how large your force is. Basically meaning, if the attacker doesn't out number the defender's forces, they are going to lose, since out munvering or finding the defender out of place would be near impossible since the defenders knows the attacker's positions at all time.(Note: With that first road block, I assume this means there would have to be abilities/units that would be specifically designed to block the vision)

This is the problem I see with your goal, reducing the anxiety. To reduce it, your attempting to removing the capability of actually attacking. Which makes the early game lose any potential player interaction. Even in Lol, when there is a lot of vision on the map, there is a actually a lot less aggression since proper positioning is hard to achive. A lot of aggression tends to come from the opponent's lack of vision.

Therefore, I believe having more vision will reduce anxiety and provide more defender's advantage, but the question and issue with that is, how much vision is enough to still allow the attacker to have options to attack without resorting to all-ins. And what options does the aggresser have to combat this vision?

You brough up this example:

"it leads players to position units defensively when there is no need to, simply because the fog of war creates a scenario in which you don't know whether an enemy oracle is just leaving the base, or whehter it is "just 15strides away"


With that example, I purpose a what if statement. What if the Oracle harassment wasn't anynear game ending, and what if the player, without having to do anything special, would noramlly be able to detour the Harassment without having to go out of their way to prepare for it? If this what if this situation existed, would you agree that the amount of anxiety any player would have would be a lot less? That the player wouldn't think of the harassment as a 'must stop' before the attack ever happens. (Note, this does not mean we get an ability like PO to completely stop the attack)

Essentially, my idea is, what if scouting was NOT required to survive early on in the game.

To clarify, scouting would be the better tactic overall, but even if you didn't scout properly, you would still have the means to not be killed. (Note, this is not talking about high ground advantage, because in the Oracle situation, high ground provides nothing) And that there is a key aspect that I feel is not dicussed about enough. The lack of ability to 'react' to an agression, instead of pre-reacting to a possible agression.

Let me use Lol as an example again. In that game, it has fog of war and it also has wards, creep, and other champions to give vision. But when a person feels in trouble or in danger, it is not vision that gives them the feeling of less anxiety. It's the turret that provides them the safety. It's the turret that allows a player to go "if something goes wrong, I have a place where I can retreat and recup the damage" or "I can hold up at this spot until the odds can be evened". And even if a champion dies, the 1 death does not mean the end for the match. It is still possible to overcome it, so it's not 100% important for the player to avoid death at all cost.

Now compare this to SC, where a lot of the counters follows the tend of, "if I don't scout/stop this tactic or harassment before it happens, I will lose the game". With something like this always looming over a player, of course the anxiety build up.

Though, I'm sure there are holes in my example, I use this as my example because, if you want to lower anxiety, then the player needs to feel safe.

But to sum up my idea, having more vision would be nice, but if the goal is to reduce anxiety. Then a bigger contributer of what reduces anxiety is the feeling of safety. Even if a player will take some damage, if they feel like they still have a viable chance of winning, than this would surely reduce anxiety of any player since you no longer have to be on top of everything at once.
:p <-- this is my sarcasm face
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 05 2015 00:56 GMT
#133
On November 05 2015 09:21 Clear World wrote:
I still want to talk about this vision thing, since it does touch on a topic that I find worth talking about, the anxiety that people feel. Changes to balance is one thing, but actually talking directly about things that create anxiety is something many people shouldn't be ignoring.

Show nested quote +
Pretty much. There are many rules you can implement to solve a specific problem. Fog of war intially dealt with the problem that players would "suicide" a unit early to track what the other player was doing all game long. (you explored the opponents base and keep vision of it all game long)
I believe that in today's competitive and semicompetitive enviroment such "relics" as you call them are not the optimal solution. As I, and Thieving Magpie said before, this solution leads to a large anxiety amongst newer or more casual players, as they are in the constant fear of possible attacks. Additionally it leads players to position units defensively when there is no need to, simply because the fog of war creates a scenario in which you don't know whether an enemy oracle is just leaving the base, or whehter it is "just 15strides away" as you call it.
I don't think fog of war is bad, having certain elements of "controlled chance" that aren't really chance but hidden, theoritcally trackable decisions is good. I plainly believe that fog of war goas quite overboard.


First, I wouldn't call Fog of war a 'relic'. The way it works can be tweaked, but the concept of how it works, in my opinion, is good for the game. Especially for a game like SC. I'm hope I'm not misinterperting your goal Big J, based on the last two pages, but it sounds like a large reason for this idea for you is because of the anxiety it can create to newer or casual players. It is true that the unknown can be scary, but anxiety isn't just caused by the unknown but what the effect the unknown casues.

Show nested quote +
As you said, RTS games could experiment more on these fronts. Fog of war wasn't a given thing in the 90s, it was a possible solution to certain problems. I can only theorycraft about my presented concept, but in practice we have only seen complete fog of war, or no fog of war at all. I think there is a lot of room for creativity between (what I presented) or fundamentally different from it.


Using the idea that you brought up, completely vision except for the genearl areas where buildings are located. If you start with that concept, than the first road block would be: it would make nearly every non-all-in attack pointless since the defend will know where and how large your force is. Basically meaning, if the attacker doesn't out number the defender's forces, they are going to lose, since out munvering or finding the defender out of place would be near impossible since the defenders knows the attacker's positions at all time.(Note: With that first road block, I assume this means there would have to be abilities/units that would be specifically designed to block the vision)

This is the problem I see with your goal, reducing the anxiety. To reduce it, your attempting to removing the capability of actually attacking. Which makes the early game lose any potential player interaction. Even in Lol, when there is a lot of vision on the map, there is a actually a lot less aggression since proper positioning is hard to achive. A lot of aggression tends to come from the opponent's lack of vision.

Therefore, I believe having more vision will reduce anxiety and provide more defender's advantage, but the question and issue with that is, how much vision is enough to still allow the attacker to have options to attack without resorting to all-ins. And what options does the aggresser have to combat this vision?

You brough up this example:

Show nested quote +
"it leads players to position units defensively when there is no need to, simply because the fog of war creates a scenario in which you don't know whether an enemy oracle is just leaving the base, or whehter it is "just 15strides away"


With that example, I purpose a what if statement. What if the Oracle harassment wasn't anynear game ending, and what if the player, without having to do anything special, would noramlly be able to detour the Harassment without having to go out of their way to prepare for it? If this what if this situation existed, would you agree that the amount of anxiety any player would have would be a lot less? That the player wouldn't think of the harassment as a 'must stop' before the attack ever happens. (Note, this does not mean we get an ability like PO to completely stop the attack)

Essentially, my idea is, what if scouting was NOT required to survive early on in the game.

To clarify, scouting would be the better tactic overall, but even if you didn't scout properly, you would still have the means to not be killed. (Note, this is not talking about high ground advantage, because in the Oracle situation, high ground provides nothing) And that there is a key aspect that I feel is not dicussed about enough. The lack of ability to 'react' to an agression, instead of pre-reacting to a possible agression.

Let me use Lol as an example again. In that game, it has fog of war and it also has wards, creep, and other champions to give vision. But when a person feels in trouble or in danger, it is not vision that gives them the feeling of less anxiety. It's the turret that provides them the safety. It's the turret that allows a player to go "if something goes wrong, I have a place where I can retreat and recup the damage" or "I can hold up at this spot until the odds can be evened". And even if a champion dies, the 1 death does not mean the end for the match. It is still possible to overcome it, so it's not 100% important for the player to avoid death at all cost.

Now compare this to SC, where a lot of the counters follows the tend of, "if I don't scout/stop this tactic or harassment before it happens, I will lose the game". With something like this always looming over a player, of course the anxiety build up.

Though, I'm sure there are holes in my example, I use this as my example because, if you want to lower anxiety, then the player needs to feel safe.

But to sum up my idea, having more vision would be nice, but if the goal is to reduce anxiety. Then a bigger contributer of what reduces anxiety is the feeling of safety. Even if a player will take some damage, if they feel like they still have a viable chance of winning, than this would surely reduce anxiety of any player since you no longer have to be on top of everything at once.


Being that you brought up the Oracle, I would like to give a reminder. Your description is EXACTLY what Blizzard said and implemented when they introduced the Oracle. A unit that dealt minor damage over time instead of game ending damage. The community became up in arms and forced Blizz to change the Oracle into what it is today.

This tells me that Blizz not only understands your point--but its actually the goal Blizz has had in mind all along. Its only been the elite portion of the SC community that has prevented Blizz from trying to make this game like that. Really, its the loud members of the community that keep thinking they "know better" that keeps ruining Starcraft.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
November 05 2015 02:49 GMT
#134
On November 05 2015 07:13 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 03:28 TimeSpiral wrote:
On November 05 2015 01:12 Big J wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:29 LoneYoShi wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
I actually disagree completely with this. Creep vision is WAY too strong and makes it so hard to attack into a good zerg (=less action)
I would actually say that perfect vision leads to boring games in general, just look at LoL and it's proscene.


Which is also why i disagree with BigJ's idea to reduce the fog of war in future rts games. At least if it is without real objectives (like sc2)


In a sense, creep also promotes action as opposing players have to get out on the map to deny it, while the Z generally has map control and tries to extend it and protect it.

As a terran player though, I agree with you. Fuck creep :p

Well the creep denying surely counts as some form of action, i am not sure if it's an interesting one though :D
If every race had some sort of creep? Not sure what would happen then, but when i look at a game with almost free vision (lol) i get the impression that it would be bad for the game.


Are you saying BW Spider Mines were bad for the game?

No i am saying creep is bad for the game. Or at least the vision it gives. Especially because zerg is the mobile race to begin with.


Spider Mines in BW gave free vision, and slowed down enemy movements enough for Terran to be able to reinforce its bases in time. Creep slows down enemy movement and speeds up Zerg movement enough to be able to reinforce its bases in time. I don't see any tactical or design difference.

I don't even understand why you try to argue about BW, this is about creep in sc2 and why it is good/bad.
If your whole argument comes down to (and this time it actually does) "it worked in BW!!" then it's probably a bad argument to begin with. Argue about the core design pls.
ps: i also don't really think spidermines with mech terran are really all that similar to creep in sc2, but that would be another topic.

I understand your concern but I believe it's only a question of tools you provide for the highest level of play. T/Ps make a lot happen against zerg despite the amounts of vision because of the speed at which a lot of them hit you.
Also keep in mind what I theorycrafted is a tool that works the other way around. You start with a lot of vision early, so good players don't sit around with stalkers preparing for a gameending zergling attack that doesn't come. But later on you have covered "your half" in fog of war through buildings or whatever creeping mechanic could be there, returning to a state in which it becomes increasingly harder to thwart enemy multitasking.

I believe currently early game aggression is too allin because you cannot keep track of your opponents movements, leading to the ridiculous situation that the terran hides behind walls and bunkers only knowing about 2zerglings, while the zerg positions in his base for a drop that doesn't come. --> boring build up process due to a lack of information while you could be more active with your units. Obviously more profits from being active on an "empty map" wouldn't hurt to begin with.


TOPIC: Fog of War is a relic.

I suggested something along these lines in another thread--I believe the thread was discussing lore and logic inconsistencies in the game rules.

Essentially: these three extremely advanced space-faring races would easily be able to see the entire theater unless specifically impeded. The Fog of War mechanic is a relic left over from the Warcraft 2 days, when it made more sense.

Why can my marine only see like 15 strides in front of him? It makes no sense.

Why can't an Overlord basically see the entire map, except for some spots beneath cliffs and ledges?

It could be argued that you could do it the other way. Each race has specific ways to hide what they are doing: cloaking, radar jamming, decoys, camouflage, moving silently, etc ... It could be done in interesting ways where collecting intel could still be required, fun, and interesting, but removes the silliness of an entire army "showing up out of nowhere".

You guys get it. Back in the Command and Conquer: Red Alert days, once you built an Airstrip (I think it was) you gained a minimap, and vision of the whole map. Then, each race had ways to "jam" the other person's radar, requiring units to make visual contact to confirm intel.

But, in the end, it's a game, and the rules are there to enhance gameplay, not to simulate or even hint at realism. SC2 is a game of severely limited information, where each unit is incredibly blind, has perfect aim, and can hear and see in 360 degrees at all times. All interesting choices, surely. But an RTS could easily experiment with simple differences that could create hugely complicated results!

Is this kinda what you're getting at, BigJ?

I wonder if Atlas's new RTS will have Fog of War. I'm guessing it will ...


Pretty much. There are many rules you can implement to solve a specific problem. Fog of war intially dealt with the problem that players would "suicide" a unit early to track what the other player was doing all game long. (you explored the opponents base and keep vision of it all game long)
I believe that in today's competitive and semicompetitive enviroment such "relics" as you call them are not the optimal solution. As I, and Thieving Magpie said before, this solution leads to a large anxiety amongst newer or more casual players, as they are in the constant fear of possible attacks. Additionally it leads players to position units defensively when there is no need to, simply because the fog of war creates a scenario in which you don't know whether an enemy oracle is just leaving the base, or whehter it is "just 15strides away" as you call it.
I don't think fog of war is bad, having certain elements of "controlled chance" that aren't really chance but hidden, theoritcally trackable decisions is good. I plainly believe that fog of war goas quite overboard.

As you said, RTS games could experiment more on these fronts. Fog of war wasn't a given thing in the 90s, it was a possible solution to certain problems. I can only theorycraft about my presented concept, but in practice we have only seen complete fog of war, or no fog of war at all. I think there is a lot of room for creativity between (what I presented) or fundamentally different from it.


Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 03:00 Nazara wrote:
I missed the "in future games" in your response. that's why I thought it is something you would like in sc2, especially after others have hijacked the thread with the idea.

No offense taken. I will try to leave this discussion about "my idea for vision" here, as you are right that this is not really the place to discuss it.


Okay, cool. That's what I thought. It's a cool thing to talk about, though I don't really think it applies to SC2 (for obvious reasons). I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "fog of war goes overboard".

Fog of War (FoW), Line of Sight (LoS), and other forms of sensing the enemy.

Since I didn't design FoW, I can't tell you why it exists. It's presumably meant to limit information on the gameboard, almost like a deck of cards. You "show your hand" by executing plays, and your opponent can "force your hand" by engaging you in some way (scouting, attacking, etc ...), but otherwise, only you can see your cards and you can't see your opponents cards. This creates fun and exciting gameplay! But it doesn't have to be that way.

You mentioned anxiety. I agree, to an extent. But we also have moments that are just dumb. I'm going to talk about a game that happened in the Ro16 WCS. So don't click on the spoiler if you haven't watched it.

+ Show Spoiler +
Maru versus Rogue (I think it was. Some underdog Zerg). Maru had his natural. His bio production was just about to start, and Rogue was spamming roaches for a big attack. He was fine. The only way to lose was to walk down his ramp at the exact wrong moment. Which is what happened. The roach army was not far away at all. I could throw a ball casually and hit the roaches if I were one of the marines ... but this military unit could not see the roaches, lol. It's silly. And the way a big attack like that works, is that Maru has to spam repair bunkers, and hold out the roaches until a few rounds of bio pops out, or you literally can't hold. He lost and was eliminated from WCS. It was stupid.

Don't want to discuss what he could have done. Clearly he could have had a forward scout, etc ...


If you don't want to read a spoiler: it creates stupid moments when my military units are extremely visually impaired. When you look at a Marine's vision radius, he couldn't even see all the way across a tennis court. It's silly.

Vision could be greatly enhanced and interesting gameplay would still exist, it would just be very different. But with enhanced, or less restrictive vision, you could introduce interesting things that interact with vision. Maybe some units are more stealthy than others. Maybe the LoS blockers are more interesting. For instance, you couldn't see into a forrest, or through heavy fog, rain; big mountains or formation cast shadows and block vision, etc ... Maybe some units can hear really well. Maybe some tech jams radars. Maybe I can hear something coming, but can't see exactly what it is. All sorts of cool stuff could be done!

All unit interactions we've ever seen in SC2 is based on this extremely restrictive vision mechanic, so we don't really know how the game could or would be played if vision was less restricted. The closest things we have are creep, and sensor towers. Creep just straight up grants vision, but also conveys to the opponent "Zerg knows you're here." Same thing with the Sensor tower, but for some reason it doesn't grant vision, or even vague impressions of unit types. Just blips on a radar. But, similarly, the opponent knows. Yet attacks still happen. Interesting things still happen--it's just different!

Imagine if you had some raiders that could move stealthily. Normal sentries won't really see them, but if you send a scout out, or a ranger, he might have the ability to detect units moving stealthily (I'm not talking about the strict invisible/detection dynamic we have in SC2, more like moving silently or hiding in stealth games).

Okay, I'm done for now.
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Wozzeck
Profile Joined November 2015
1 Post
November 05 2015 02:49 GMT
#135
My god dude, such a beautiful and thoughtful article. I just finished reading it and am a bit stumped on what to add constructively. The article is so thorough and full of such intelligent and meaningful changes to make the game thrilling again. I agree on so many points. I am also a massive Broodwar fan and have seen so distinctly the deep thrill of the game leave with SC2. I am not sure what to add man but your post is brilliant and well received.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-05 03:13:14
November 05 2015 03:06 GMT
#136
On November 05 2015 11:49 TimeSpiral wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Fog of War (FoW), Line of Sight (LoS), and other forms of sensing the enemy.

Since I didn't design FoW, I can't tell you why it exists. It's presumably meant to limit information on the gameboard, almost like a deck of cards. You "show your hand" by executing plays, and your opponent can "force your hand" by engaging you in some way (scouting, attacking, etc ...), but otherwise, only you can see your cards and you can't see your opponents cards. This creates fun and exciting gameplay! But it doesn't have to be that way.

You mentioned anxiety. I agree, to an extent. But we also have moments that are just dumb. I'm going to talk about a game that happened in the Ro16 WCS. So don't click on the spoiler if you haven't watched it.

+ Show Spoiler +
Maru versus Rogue (I think it was. Some underdog Zerg). Maru had his natural. His bio production was just about to start, and Rogue was spamming roaches for a big attack. He was fine. The only way to lose was to walk down his ramp at the exact wrong moment. Which is what happened. The roach army was not far away at all. I could throw a ball casually and hit the roaches if I were one of the marines ... but this military unit could not see the roaches, lol. It's silly. And the way a big attack like that works, is that Maru has to spam repair bunkers, and hold out the roaches until a few rounds of bio pops out, or you literally can't hold. He lost and was eliminated from WCS. It was stupid.

Don't want to discuss what he could have done. Clearly he could have had a forward scout, etc ...


If you don't want to read a spoiler: it creates stupid moments when my military units are extremely visually impaired. When you look at a Marine's vision radius, he couldn't even see all the way across a tennis court. It's silly.

Vision could be greatly enhanced and interesting gameplay would still exist, it would just be very different. But with enhanced, or less restrictive vision, you could introduce interesting things that interact with vision. Maybe some units are more stealthy than others. Maybe the LoS blockers are more interesting. For instance, you couldn't see into a forrest, or through heavy fog, rain; big mountains or formation cast shadows and block vision, etc ... Maybe some units can hear really well. Maybe some tech jams radars. Maybe I can hear something coming, but can't see exactly what it is. All sorts of cool stuff could be done!

All unit interactions we've ever seen in SC2 is based on this extremely restrictive vision mechanic, so we don't really know how the game could or would be played if vision was less restricted. The closest things we have are creep, and sensor towers. Creep just straight up grants vision, but also conveys to the opponent "Zerg knows you're here." Same thing with the Sensor tower, but for some reason it doesn't grant vision, or even vague impressions of unit types. Just blips on a radar. But, similarly, the opponent knows. Yet attacks still happen. Interesting things still happen--it's just different!

Imagine if you had some raiders that could move stealthily. Normal sentries won't really see them, but if you send a scout out, or a ranger, he might have the ability to detect units moving stealthily (I'm not talking about the strict invisible/detection dynamic we have in SC2, more like moving silently or hiding in stealth games).

Okay, I'm done for now.

Holy hell. Quotes like these need spoiler tags. Way too much. Sometimes it's still not enough, you still see the whole wall of text when you quote them yourself, try trimming some fat from the conversation here and there, leave only the relevant stuff in the post, as far as how many nested quotes are there. Too many layers.

Anyway, about line of sight. It's a conscious design decision. I can guarantee the designer of any RTS will look at things like this and come to a decision about how LoS works in their game at some point, it's not something that gets overlooked. In an RTS, you have lots of action going on, across every inch of the map, workers are mining, buildings are producing and being produced, armies have to be maintained and positioned in case of attack. It's a conscious decision to abstract the way a unit sees what's going on around itself. Obviously, I don't see everything in a perfect 10-meter circle around me at all times, and neither do you. Hell, while we're at it, I seriously doubt a Supply Depot has eyes and ears to let me know what's happening around it.

There's enough on the plate of the player, without having to worry about things like which way the unit is facing and whether that puts that unit at risk. Perhaps in a smaller-scale RTS, one where you don't have to worry about an army of 100+ units, or in a turn-based game, you'd have that luxury of design space, but in a game as fast and as busy as Starcraft, it's a layer of complexity that would just frustrate the players more likely than not. Sometimes having that layer of realism just isn't worth it from a gameplay perspective. And Starcraft was never a realistic depiction of war to begin with, there are levels of abstraction, layers even, that are used when convenient, throughout many layers of the series. It's just how it is.

I'm such a layered individual. Look at me go.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
NanashiStarCraft
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany48 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-05 15:00:34
November 05 2015 15:00 GMT
#137
Wow, I had to chunk this down and read through it day by day. But hell this is f$!"*ng brilliant. I'd love to see a community map with all these changes implemented!
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
November 05 2015 15:42 GMT
#138
On November 05 2015 12:06 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 11:49 TimeSpiral wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Fog of War (FoW), Line of Sight (LoS), and other forms of sensing the enemy.

Since I didn't design FoW, I can't tell you why it exists. It's presumably meant to limit information on the gameboard, almost like a deck of cards. You "show your hand" by executing plays, and your opponent can "force your hand" by engaging you in some way (scouting, attacking, etc ...), but otherwise, only you can see your cards and you can't see your opponents cards. This creates fun and exciting gameplay! But it doesn't have to be that way.

You mentioned anxiety. I agree, to an extent. But we also have moments that are just dumb. I'm going to talk about a game that happened in the Ro16 WCS. So don't click on the spoiler if you haven't watched it.

+ Show Spoiler +
Maru versus Rogue (I think it was. Some underdog Zerg). Maru had his natural. His bio production was just about to start, and Rogue was spamming roaches for a big attack. He was fine. The only way to lose was to walk down his ramp at the exact wrong moment. Which is what happened. The roach army was not far away at all. I could throw a ball casually and hit the roaches if I were one of the marines ... but this military unit could not see the roaches, lol. It's silly. And the way a big attack like that works, is that Maru has to spam repair bunkers, and hold out the roaches until a few rounds of bio pops out, or you literally can't hold. He lost and was eliminated from WCS. It was stupid.

Don't want to discuss what he could have done. Clearly he could have had a forward scout, etc ...


If you don't want to read a spoiler: it creates stupid moments when my military units are extremely visually impaired. When you look at a Marine's vision radius, he couldn't even see all the way across a tennis court. It's silly.

Vision could be greatly enhanced and interesting gameplay would still exist, it would just be very different. But with enhanced, or less restrictive vision, you could introduce interesting things that interact with vision. Maybe some units are more stealthy than others. Maybe the LoS blockers are more interesting. For instance, you couldn't see into a forrest, or through heavy fog, rain; big mountains or formation cast shadows and block vision, etc ... Maybe some units can hear really well. Maybe some tech jams radars. Maybe I can hear something coming, but can't see exactly what it is. All sorts of cool stuff could be done!

All unit interactions we've ever seen in SC2 is based on this extremely restrictive vision mechanic, so we don't really know how the game could or would be played if vision was less restricted. The closest things we have are creep, and sensor towers. Creep just straight up grants vision, but also conveys to the opponent "Zerg knows you're here." Same thing with the Sensor tower, but for some reason it doesn't grant vision, or even vague impressions of unit types. Just blips on a radar. But, similarly, the opponent knows. Yet attacks still happen. Interesting things still happen--it's just different!

Imagine if you had some raiders that could move stealthily. Normal sentries won't really see them, but if you send a scout out, or a ranger, he might have the ability to detect units moving stealthily (I'm not talking about the strict invisible/detection dynamic we have in SC2, more like moving silently or hiding in stealth games).

Okay, I'm done for now.

Holy hell. Quotes like these need spoiler tags. Way too much. Sometimes it's still not enough, you still see the whole wall of text when you quote them yourself, try trimming some fat from the conversation here and there, leave only the relevant stuff in the post, as far as how many nested quotes are there. Too many layers.

Anyway, about line of sight. It's a conscious design decision. I can guarantee the designer of any RTS will look at things like this and come to a decision about how LoS works in their game at some point, it's not something that gets overlooked. In an RTS, you have lots of action going on, across every inch of the map, workers are mining, buildings are producing and being produced, armies have to be maintained and positioned in case of attack. It's a conscious decision to abstract the way a unit sees what's going on around itself. Obviously, I don't see everything in a perfect 10-meter circle around me at all times, and neither do you. Hell, while we're at it, I seriously doubt a Supply Depot has eyes and ears to let me know what's happening around it.

There's enough on the plate of the player, without having to worry about things like which way the unit is facing and whether that puts that unit at risk. Perhaps in a smaller-scale RTS, one where you don't have to worry about an army of 100+ units, or in a turn-based game, you'd have that luxury of design space, but in a game as fast and as busy as Starcraft, it's a layer of complexity that would just frustrate the players more likely than not. Sometimes having that layer of realism just isn't worth it from a gameplay perspective. And Starcraft was never a realistic depiction of war to begin with, there are levels of abstraction, layers even, that are used when convenient, throughout many layers of the series. It's just how it is.

I'm such a layered individual. Look at me go.


Maybe you missed it, because a lot has been said, but I've specifically said that I don't necessarily think the FoW and LoS concepts being discussed are relevant to SC2. It was just an interesting tangent; describing how things could be done differently--obviously using SC2 scenarios as examples, for obvious reasons.

And yeah, I don't really go through the quote-exchange threads and edit them out. *shrugs* Clearly it would be better if we all did, because after a certain point it becomes unreadable.
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
greenelve
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1392 Posts
November 05 2015 16:30 GMT
#139
On November 05 2015 11:49 TimeSpiral wrote:


Vision could be greatly enhanced and interesting gameplay would still exist, it would just be very different. But with enhanced, or less restrictive vision, you could introduce interesting things that interact with vision. Maybe some units are more stealthy than others. Maybe the LoS blockers are more interesting. For instance, you couldn't see into a forrest, or through heavy fog, rain; big mountains or formation cast shadows and block vision, etc ... Maybe some units can hear really well. Maybe some tech jams radars. Maybe I can hear something coming, but can't see exactly what it is. All sorts of cool stuff could be done!

All unit interactions we've ever seen in SC2 is based on this extremely restrictive vision mechanic, so we don't really know how the game could or would be played if vision was less restricted. The closest things we have are creep, and sensor towers. Creep just straight up grants vision, but also conveys to the opponent "Zerg knows you're here." Same thing with the Sensor tower, but for some reason it doesn't grant vision, or even vague impressions of unit types. Just blips on a radar. But, similarly, the opponent knows. Yet attacks still happen. Interesting things still happen--it's just different!

Well, there are already LoS blockers in the game with brush, bushes, smoke on space platforms and tall grass. Xel Naga Tower grants more vision.

Also there are units you can hear, but dont know exactly where they are or what they are. For example Nydus Worm, loading/unloading drop, Nuclear Bomb by Ghosts.

Sensor Tower is a terran only unit, so it had to be available for all three races if it would work like a Xel Naga Tower. And afair it has a greater radius than the Xel Naga Tower. Also im not sure if the Sensor Tower is still used as much as it used to be in the past.
z0r.de for your daily madness /// Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The Shadow knows!
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 05 2015 18:29 GMT
#140
On November 06 2015 01:30 greenelve wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 11:49 TimeSpiral wrote:


Vision could be greatly enhanced and interesting gameplay would still exist, it would just be very different. But with enhanced, or less restrictive vision, you could introduce interesting things that interact with vision. Maybe some units are more stealthy than others. Maybe the LoS blockers are more interesting. For instance, you couldn't see into a forrest, or through heavy fog, rain; big mountains or formation cast shadows and block vision, etc ... Maybe some units can hear really well. Maybe some tech jams radars. Maybe I can hear something coming, but can't see exactly what it is. All sorts of cool stuff could be done!

All unit interactions we've ever seen in SC2 is based on this extremely restrictive vision mechanic, so we don't really know how the game could or would be played if vision was less restricted. The closest things we have are creep, and sensor towers. Creep just straight up grants vision, but also conveys to the opponent "Zerg knows you're here." Same thing with the Sensor tower, but for some reason it doesn't grant vision, or even vague impressions of unit types. Just blips on a radar. But, similarly, the opponent knows. Yet attacks still happen. Interesting things still happen--it's just different!

Well, there are already LoS blockers in the game with brush, bushes, smoke on space platforms and tall grass. Xel Naga Tower grants more vision.

Also there are units you can hear, but dont know exactly where they are or what they are. For example Nydus Worm, loading/unloading drop, Nuclear Bomb by Ghosts.

Sensor Tower is a terran only unit, so it had to be available for all three races if it would work like a Xel Naga Tower. And afair it has a greater radius than the Xel Naga Tower. Also im not sure if the Sensor Tower is still used as much as it used to be in the past.


What we are talking about is not "LOS Blockers" but "Limited Line of Sight"

For example, a 6 range marine seeing 12 hexes in front of him but only 1-3 hexes behind him in a 90-160 degree arc, but can still.

But to the topic of the Sensor Tower--would it be OP if it didn't cost gas and was cheaper? Like 75-100 minerals only?
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 05 2015 21:05 GMT
#141
I have added a polls section to the opening post, if anyone wants to participate
ZeroCartin
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica2390 Posts
November 05 2015 22:55 GMT
#142
Great. Voted on some, still need alot of time to read some of your points.
"My sister is on vacation in Costa Rica right now. I hope she stays a while because she's a miserable cunt." -pubbanana
NanashiStarCraft
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany48 Posts
November 06 2015 03:30 GMT
#143
On November 06 2015 06:05 Nazara wrote:
I have added a polls section to the opening post, if anyone wants to participate


Done. Hopefully lot's of people will participate.
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 06 2015 07:56 GMT
#144
Back t o some things I wanted to reply earlier:

Big J
About the void ray, my thoughts about giving it charge back were as follows:
- charging on buildings/units before taking on marines and keeping up charge while kiting was interesting type of micro, that required good timing on movement, attack and focus fire
- the idea was to make or keep void ray as a harass tool that can be easily repelled if not micro'ed correctly , like vulture in bw
- in no way I was thinking about making void ray as a part of core composition, maybe even reducing cost, supply and health to be more disposable, and function like mutalisk in bw - bad in straight up engagement, good when micro'ed properly.
- Even then , an upgrade could keep void ray on second charge at all times, making it better in core army, if you want, but I still don't like the idea of air being core.



Regarding economy, I believe hmh and dh are both superior then half patches. I didn't write anything about it because I wanted to start the thread and run out of time.

Another reason for that is that other threads have covered it extensively.



replying to dinosaur poop:

It is an upgrade, but I didn't talk about it with intention of needing warp gate. But the reasoning is this:

Warp gate has a long research time if not chronoboosted.

Zerg has 3 larva from inject, producing 12.5% more larva then a hatch for half the cost (used to be 33% with 4 larva per inject).

Queens come into play early , and even then roaches are very larva efficient.

Zerg production can be impossible to stop in straight up fight.


Terrain has a reactor, which can drastically lower the cost of production buildings (mainly factory and starport).

Marauder also counters stalkers pretty hard.


All this means that if protoss is not boosting warp gate research, to get more economy for standard play or anything else, he is using gateways for quite a bit of time, which are producing units up to 3x% slower, while other races produce units faster. Protoss cannot keep up, so we need msc and force fields in the game to defend. With buff to gateway production ( same or only 10% slower then warp gate) msc and photon cannon would not be needed at all. Maybe force field could be nerfed as well.

Maybe gateway and warp gate times can both be reduced, or maybe without the macro boosters, only a small tweak to gateway would be needed. It is hard to tell without checking it, but I believe it is an easy and good solution.



Regarding unit selection: nowhere I have stated 12 unit limit or lower like in warcraft, personally I had 24 in mind.

Unit selection limit does have benefits and flaws.
Benefit is that psychologically, it promotes action. 1 group is easier to manage then two. Two is easier then three etc. But when you have a limit and build a full group of units, it brings you a sense of achievement, however small. Once you have 24 roaches, for example, you will want to use that group, instead of waiting for another 3 roaches to spawn. With unlimited selection, you think more as "i have 24 roaches, but I can wait for 27, because why not. Or maybe I should wait and get next 4..." And so on and on. 

There is no reason why you would not wait to have a bigger force before moving out. It promotes turtling.

 With limited selection on the other hand, you want to use the full group because it is easier to control, and because you have a small psychological pat on your back "hey, you just made a full group! Go get them", which leads to more action.

However, the smaller the selection is, the harder it is to control bigger armies. This can be again beneficial, breaking down the deathballing and turtling, but increases frustration at the same time. 

The point is to find a good balance and not to dismiss idea just because you didn't try it, or tried with a number that is too limiting.


I reckon if we never had unlimited selection in the first place, the poll would be skewed more in direction of "unlimited selection?! You're shitting me gtfo". Maybe same would be true to multiple buildings selection.



I made a flop in the ht feedback poll, not including "nerd feedback if emp is also nerfed". Maybe poll would look different, maybe not, too late to change it now


We have quite a few thousand views, surely we can get some more voters! Don't give up just because beta is finished :D

Sorry about formatting, I typed it on my phone .
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
November 06 2015 08:37 GMT
#145
one of the core things that is broken with the game is the marauder

i totally agree with you - i remember seeing it in the first alpha battle report and being like "WTF is this unit"

i dont know who had the terrible terrible idea to give every race a dragoon unit, and on top of that weaken the protoss dragoon. that destroyed racial identity, and brought with it so many other horrible design choices

i found it hilarious in a depressing way when blizzard took the marauder as an example of a unit that was often seen as imbalanced, yet never had to be changed in one of their community posts, shows how little they care about the communitys suggestions... so many people identified the problems right from the start... hydra being tier2 and the infernal triangle of terrible terrible damage units (marauder, roach, immortal) being core game design problems right from the start. it was never possible to build a balance model as beautiful as BW's around such flawed core design
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-06 12:31:37
November 06 2015 12:14 GMT
#146
On November 06 2015 17:37 summerloud wrote:
one of the core things that is broken with the game is the marauder

i totally agree with you - i remember seeing it in the first alpha battle report and being like "WTF is this unit"

i dont know who had the terrible terrible idea to give every race a dragoon unit, and on top of that weaken the protoss dragoon. that destroyed racial identity, and brought with it so many other horrible design choices

i found it hilarious in a depressing way when blizzard took the marauder as an example of a unit that was often seen as imbalanced, yet never had to be changed in one of their community posts, shows how little they care about the communitys suggestions... so many people identified the problems right from the start... hydra being tier2 and the infernal triangle of terrible terrible damage units (marauder, roach, immortal) being core game design problems right from the start. it was never possible to build a balance model as beautiful as BW's around such flawed core design

seeing the binary "stim attack + move + attack + move + attack + move" "micro" (it is often not really micro rather just necessary binary handling : if bio ball stronger then move forward if weaker move backwards ~ now with disruptors the binary just also includes "is there a disruptor shot coming this way") going on even today hurts my eyes. The marauder attack slowing down targets is such a HUGE mistake for the game's diversity, because you can't/shouldn't engage them unless you know you won't want to retreat, and the only way to engage them is to run straight towards them from one direction (+ making force fields the necessary micro move put behind). Because of the mega damage it does to "armored" and of that slow down, I think that's a big reason why the siege tank can't be a strong siege tank (since then armored units would get obliterated AND units forced to stay under fire of siege tanks any time an engagement happens + slowed down in the vital process of reaching the tanks). So basically we can thank this bad idea for killing Terran positional tactics identity, to replace it with slowing down stutter attack bio ball that can take flight. It is kind of funny because it is so easy to remove and change for the better but it stayed in the game forever lol.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
November 06 2015 15:17 GMT
#147
On November 06 2015 21:14 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2015 17:37 summerloud wrote:
one of the core things that is broken with the game is the marauder

i totally agree with you - i remember seeing it in the first alpha battle report and being like "WTF is this unit"

i dont know who had the terrible terrible idea to give every race a dragoon unit, and on top of that weaken the protoss dragoon. that destroyed racial identity, and brought with it so many other horrible design choices

i found it hilarious in a depressing way when blizzard took the marauder as an example of a unit that was often seen as imbalanced, yet never had to be changed in one of their community posts, shows how little they care about the communitys suggestions... so many people identified the problems right from the start... hydra being tier2 and the infernal triangle of terrible terrible damage units (marauder, roach, immortal) being core game design problems right from the start. it was never possible to build a balance model as beautiful as BW's around such flawed core design

seeing the binary "stim attack + move + attack + move + attack + move" "micro" (it is often not really micro rather just necessary binary handling : if bio ball stronger then move forward if weaker move backwards ~ now with disruptors the binary just also includes "is there a disruptor shot coming this way") going on even today hurts my eyes. The marauder attack slowing down targets is such a HUGE mistake for the game's diversity, because you can't/shouldn't engage them unless you know you won't want to retreat, and the only way to engage them is to run straight towards them from one direction (+ making force fields the necessary micro move put behind). Because of the mega damage it does to "armored" and of that slow down, I think that's a big reason why the siege tank can't be a strong siege tank (since then armored units would get obliterated AND units forced to stay under fire of siege tanks any time an engagement happens + slowed down in the vital process of reaching the tanks). So basically we can thank this bad idea for killing Terran positional tactics identity, to replace it with slowing down stutter attack bio ball that can take flight. It is kind of funny because it is so easy to remove and change for the better but it stayed in the game forever lol.


What did I just read? Binary handling? Lol.

There are several abilities, compositions, and scenarios that dramatically reduce the effectiveness of a retreat (or otherwise impedes movement):

- [T] concussive shells
- [T] ignite afterburners
- [P] graviton beam
- [P] blink
- [P] time warp
- [P] stasis ward
- [Z] creep
- [Z] fungal growth

All of these abilities--and I'm probably forgetting some--directly affects an opponents ability to disengage for a poorly-taken fight, or directly affects movement speed of the opponent (in one extremely ridiculous case, setting it to zero!).
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
November 06 2015 15:53 GMT
#148
Yes ok maybe I exagerrate a bit but you know what I mean no? It is very common to see a ball just stim attack one way or the other repetitively. If you do get caught in a bad situation it can be game ending so that prevents a lot of smaller engagements to even happen. It's something I really didn't like playing WoL. But OK.
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 06 2015 18:53 GMT
#149
On November 07 2015 00:53 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Yes ok maybe I exagerrate a bit but you know what I mean no? It is very common to see a ball just stim attack one way or the other repetitively. If you do get caught in a bad situation it can be game ending so that prevents a lot of smaller engagements to even happen. It's something I really didn't like playing WoL. But OK.


What you are describing is micro. Making the same 2-4 actions repeatedly using dexterity to gain tactical advantage. Micro is good, and should be encouraged more.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-06 19:01:23
November 06 2015 18:57 GMT
#150
On November 06 2015 17:37 summerloud wrote:
it was never possible to build a balance model as beautiful as BW's around such flawed core design


It was never about building a beautiful model for Blizzard.

It was about building a model they could understand and control. And it is easier to understand and control when each race has a "Dragoon."

Remember how the Oracle originally functioned with mineral shields? That was sure easy to balance because the ability to easy to use and predict what was going to happen. There was no skill ceiling and because of that it wasn't beautiful, it was terrible.

The problem is, Blizzard controlling the game is almost always universally bad because they destroy the beauty of the game. And unfortunately that is because Blizzard fails to understand how to design a beautiful game. Broodwar wasn't balanced by intelligent design, it became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered. But Blizzard couldn't control Broodwar for fear of ruining it with bad game design choices. And we know they would have ruined BW now, because we've seen what they've done with Starcraft 2.

Sadly, they decided to forget all the lessons learned from Broodwar and just give us boring predictability, and in some cases, infuriatingly, gave us predictable unpredictability (like in the case of the Widow Mine), both which has increasingly diluted the skill ceiling and increased the frustration of playing Starcraft 2.

And this is all in an era of games like LoL, that naturally raise the skill ceiling in meaningful ways while focusing on reducing the frustration of playing. It didn't have to be this way, and it is why I went back to making custom maps for WC3 for my RTS fix.



Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 06 2015 20:28 GMT
#151
On November 07 2015 03:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2015 00:53 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Yes ok maybe I exagerrate a bit but you know what I mean no? It is very common to see a ball just stim attack one way or the other repetitively. If you do get caught in a bad situation it can be game ending so that prevents a lot of smaller engagements to even happen. It's something I really didn't like playing WoL. But OK.


What you are describing is micro. Making the same 2-4 actions repeatedly using dexterity to gain tactical advantage. Micro is good, and should be encouraged more.
But there is no difference between Silver and Grand Master player performing stutter step with MM ball.
Marauders ability slows down units without any input from the player. You can't dodge it, or escape it. Once you decide to retreat or regroup, all the units affected by Concussive Shells are going to be destroyed. No matter how much better you are then your opponent, you lose more in the engagement. Maybe your force was split in two, maybe it was on the move and you want to get into better position. In any case, you will lose some units because you cannot save them from the automatic slowing effect.
This creates the situation when you want to be absolute sure you can engage the Bio ball and win the fight - which does not encourage fighting, quite the opposite.

I think this is what ProMeTheus is saying.
deadmau
Profile Joined September 2010
960 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-07 21:21:03
November 07 2015 21:05 GMT
#152
On November 02 2015 08:10 Nazara wrote:
Warp Gate>Gateway, Chronoboost and bandaids as their consequence.

Force Fields were hated since their introduction. Formerly to help Protoss in their early game, so Protoss wouldn't die to rush tactics, but also to split enemy army effectively halving DPS of Zerg/Terran and winning the game for Protoss. Blizzard tried some bandaids for it - increasing burrow speed, making Massive units destroy FF, and lastly, designing a unit with a sole purpose of fighting FF (the unit in question now is being redesigned as a Liberator/Tank/Lurker siege stopper which I think is silly). Lets not to forget about Photon Overcharge and lately Pylon Overcharge, which don't just help with defence - PO simply shuts down any kind of early game pressure/harassment. Implementation of a hero unit - Mothership Core (MSC) - is also a widely debated.
But why does Protoss need early game protection, if most units in the game have same or similiar stats as they had back in Brood War, where Protoss was fine or even was the primary agressor? Because Warp Gate (WG). Let me explain - Protoss production is centered around Warp Gate and that is the "standard" Protoss production rate of units required to keep up with Terran and Zerg. Someone thought that Gateway is not enough, that P needs a new fancy way of making units - and that is fine by itself. Now, Warp Gate produces units faster then Gateway and can spawn units anywhere on the map. Spawning units on the map is fine as an upgrade, but Gateway being so inferior to WG is a bad design. There is no benefit of choosing Gateway over Warp Gate. None whatsoever. Producing early game units from Gateway is inefficient - Zealots are warped 35% faster with WG, Sentries by 15% and Stalkers by 31%. It means that before switching to WG, Protoss produces his units at lower rate then other races. While WG is balanced in mid and late game, Gateway is lacking. Terran can produce much more units thanks to Reactor, while Zerg with Injects can spend a lot of extra larva on attacking units. Gateway in the meantime is still just a Gateway. Because Gateway production is slow compared to increased production of Zerg and Terran, and everything was balanced around Warp Gate build times, Protoss cannot field same amount of units as effectively as other races. Early rushes and timing attacks would kill Protoss outright because Gateway production without Chronoboost is not enough compared to what other races have. That is, in my opinion, the reason why FF is invulnerable, easy to spam and comes so early in the game.
So what about Mothership Core and Pylon/Photon Overcharge? Its existence is a result of three separete issues: one of the WG (already discussed), one of drops (which will not be discussed just yet), and the last one being the Chronoboost. Heresy! Or is it? Lets think about what Chronoboost does: it speeds up the rate of production (economy), alternate production (army), or technology. You can be very flexible with it:
- Boost Probe production, gaining an edge against players who play too safe
- Boost upgrade/gates/WGs for a powerfull timing attack/all in
- Boost Probe production while going for a less powerfull timing attack but better economy to gain lead in mid-late game
- Boost a unit production and its upgrades/tech for harassement
- Boost a random building (Nexus/Cybernetics Core/Robo) to fake your techpath/build.
And many more, but boosting one dimension (army/tech/economy) comes at a cost of falling behind in another.
Protoss without Chronoboost is mediocre when it comes to economy (no MULE, cannot convert army production for extra probes like larva), army production or tech/upgrades. Yes, attack/shield/armor upgrades can be boosted and finished faster then those of other races, but because of a possibility of CB, crucial tech has been slowed down in order nerf all-ins. Think about how Blink and WG research time was increased as a result of strong cheese play. But, both of those (or at least WG) are necessary for Protoss just to not fall behind and stay in game if playing standard. Both are painfully slow to research if you're not all-inning. But can still hit quickly if you CB them, which led in the past to exploiting it in the Blink all-in era. This is why Protoss cannot be balanced as long as there is Chronoboost - standard play can be very economical but at the same time is too slow to keep up with the enemy army and tech, resulting in P having to rely on FF, MSC and its PO for defence in the early game. Yet in a same way harass and all-in/cheese is way too strong if it is boosted. There is no middle ground in Protoss strategy. And that my dear is exactly why so many people don't like to play agains Protoss - because with Chronoboost, there are many more timings to which you have to adapt in order not to lose vs Protoss, making their cheese/all-ins stronger, but not helping Protoss as much while playing standard. And in order to give Protoss some defensive advantage, MSC with Photon Overcharge was introduced.
tl:dr
Protoss being gimmicky is a consequence of Chronoboost - either cheese is too strong, or standard play too weak, as balancing between the two is next to impossible. P needs Force Field and a hero unit (Mothership Core) with Pylon cannons to play standard game and not to die when if not cheesing. Gateway producing units at much lower rate then Warp Gate is also a big contributor to this (or rather, Larva Inject, Reactors and Techlab switching make Gateway production much worse in comparison).
With Chronoboost the PvP looks like safe>>>aggressive>>>greedy>>>safe, without it will be more like safe>>aggressive>>greedy>>safe, which would reduce a bit the coinflip nature of PvP, even if just a little bit.



Here I'll speed this up. REMOVE WARPGATE, BALANCE FROM THERE. David Kim/Blizzard/Blue please wake the fuck up you're losing a 17+ year loyal fan.

I've only played Protoss my entire SC/BW/SC2 history, please fucking remove this idiot mechanic. It's no longer cute or unique, we don't want it anymore nor has it ever been good for balance from day 1. Because of Warp they've had to come up with dumb mechanic gimmick after dumb mechanic gimmick. Just fucking remove it.

I agree with whoever mentioned up top, as long as they balance the game around idiot design philosophies, it will never be able to achieve balance. LotV panel showed me that many others were right, they'll never get there as long as they stick to the flawed-core design they chose.

OP:
Give this post (2012) on Warpgate a read, SuzyQuark explains it much better than me; the problems were from core design of WoL forward

With these issue known back then, Blizzard still came out with gimmick fixes, instead of just killing the fucking problem at the source, Warpgate Mechanic
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-07 21:32:22
November 07 2015 21:29 GMT
#153
I believe with long warp-in time on far away pylons, and extra damage to units being warp-in can balance it, at least a little bit.
I agree that Warp Gate makes it really problematic and messes up the balance a lot. 4 Gate all-ins, Stalker all-ins, crazy Adept Prism rushes - it can be blamed on WG and Warp Prism.
I read the thread you linked earlier, while browsing the forum, and I agree on this one with you.

On the other hand, I know a lot of players are so used to WG, that they would stop playing the game altogether without it, even as WG introduces more problems then its worth.
Same with less efficient pathing, which would solve the deathballing issue almost on its own, but people are already used to current pathing so much after 5 years, that we would hear to no end the cries if Blizzard changed it to something more resembling BW or Starbow.
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-07 21:31:35
November 07 2015 21:30 GMT
#154
sorry double post, please delete
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-08 00:45:39
November 08 2015 00:43 GMT
#155
On November 08 2015 06:29 Nazara wrote:
I believe with long warp-in time on far away pylons, and extra damage to units being warp-in can balance it, at least a little bit.
I agree that Warp Gate makes it really problematic and messes up the balance a lot. 4 Gate all-ins, Stalker all-ins, crazy Adept Prism rushes - it can be blamed on WG and Warp Prism.
I read the thread you linked earlier, while browsing the forum, and I agree on this one with you.

On the other hand, I know a lot of players are so used to WG, that they would stop playing the game altogether without it, even as WG introduces more problems then its worth.
Same with less efficient pathing, which would solve the deathballing issue almost on its own, but people are already used to current pathing so much after 5 years, that we would hear to no end the cries if Blizzard changed it to something more resembling BW or Starbow.

Yeah agree, and for second paragraph also yeah it would probably be more than risky especially after not recognizing the issues for so long. Who knows what would happen, but they are not going to do it, they made it that way for a reason even if a bad one.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-08 02:15:24
November 08 2015 02:09 GMT
#156
On November 06 2015 17:37 summerloud wrote:
one of the core things that is broken with the game is the marauder

i totally agree with you - i remember seeing it in the first alpha battle report and being like "WTF is this unit"

i dont know who had the terrible terrible idea to give every race a dragoon unit, and on top of that weaken the protoss dragoon. that destroyed racial identity, and brought with it so many other horrible design choices

i found it hilarious in a depressing way when blizzard took the marauder as an example of a unit that was often seen as imbalanced, yet never had to be changed in one of their community posts, shows how little they care about the communitys suggestions... so many people identified the problems right from the start... hydra being tier2 and the infernal triangle of terrible terrible damage units (marauder, roach, immortal) being core game design problems right from the start. it was never possible to build a balance model as beautiful as BW's around such flawed core design

That's literally the first time I read something about the marauder being a core problem... maybe since WoL beta.

And in the same breath, you're talking about how bad "dragoon for everyone" is while mentioning Hydralisks, which are really not that different from dragoons, once you remove the dumb AI. I mean, in the end, they're all some kind of slow midrange units that can shoot up...
The marauder is way further from a dragoon that the hydra is...

This is precisely the kind of post that prevents the community from having any constructive argument about the game. You have to sort all the "X unit is so bad blah blah bad design" posts from the actually interesting thoughts.
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
November 09 2015 19:03 GMT
#157
one solution to the whole "spellcasters being too weak because of smartcasting" issue that ive never heard so far would be to limit the massability of overpowered units by letting them cost another type of resource that is finite

this way you could restore psi storm or other spells to their former glory without making mass templars overpowered

the editor even has the option to edit unit cost for terrazine as a 3rd resource
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-09 20:37:29
November 09 2015 19:51 GMT
#158
On November 07 2015 03:57 BronzeKnee wrote:The problem is, Blizzard controlling the game is almost always universally bad because they destroy the beauty of the game. And unfortunately that is because Blizzard fails to understand how to design a beautiful game. Broodwar wasn't balanced by intelligent design, it became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered. But Blizzard couldn't control Broodwar for fear of ruining it with bad game design choices. And we know they would have ruined BW now, because we've seen what they've done with Starcraft 2.

I don't agree with the part were you say bw "became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered". Before Muta-stacking was discovered, Brood War was already a great game and it was great because of its intelligent design. Sure the developpers never expect players would play so fast and micro the way they did, but if you look at the numbers and general mechanics in the game they are very accurately laid out and give lots of possibilities. There are a lot of numbers and mechanics in the game which were never changed after release, most of them. The design of BW is very intelligent and I really think it is the primary reason why it shined so bright and is so fun to play.
Muta Stacking, in my opinion, though it changed match ups quite a bit, is not really a good thing in BW. It provokes ZvT to almost always go muta harrass at start, and allows mutas to snipe templars or probes very easily unless P has enough corsairs, for instance. It is too hard to counter Mutas with something else than corsairs in PvZ because of this, even though the game was designed intelligently with goons being a good all rounder to use against them, and archon very strong, but he can't catch up with any mutas because they are in a ball (if he does, mega damage ; similarly with storms it is risky to try it because mutaball can dodge it quite easily but if not, mega damage). In my opinion, this bug is not good for the game, but it is not possible or intelligent to try and forbid it. I think the game would be better without it, and the most creative days of BW date from before this bug entered the arena. Something that pins the early game down strongly in ZvT means that there are less diversity for the midgame as well. And ZvZ is the one true problem match up in the game, where muta battles are very central... I guess a lot probably won't agree with me about that. But anyway the game was definitely great and well balanced before muta stacking came into use.

The reason why Blizzard is not capable of doing intelligent design today like you said and I agree with you, is, I think, not because they have never been, it is because it is simply not the same company as before. Almost everybody is gone, and now they work with much bigger teams on a much more industrial model that target financial goals with little risk. Creativity and smart design is very complicated to organize in such a situation, and brings a greater sense of financial risk. They have likely hired people such as Dustin Browder for his ability to appeal to masses rather than to make a great RTS, that is exactly what the later C&Cs are. Big nukes and powerful-looking units.
Clear World
Profile Joined April 2015
125 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-09 20:29:43
November 09 2015 19:57 GMT
#159
On November 10 2015 04:03 summerloud wrote:
one solution to the whole "spellcasters being too weak because of smartcasting" issue that ive never heard so far would be to limit the massability of overpowered units by letting them cost another type of resource that is finite

this way you could restore psi storm or other spells to their former glory without making mass templars overpowered

the editor even has the option to edit unit cost for terrazine as a 3rd resource


That solution probably don't get suggested because i don't think people want another resource in the game. And like almost any suggested change, a change like this does sort of require the game to be designed with that aspect in mind, which this game isn't at the moment. And this "issue of spellcaster" you're talking about seems like it could be improved on with ease without restorting to a new resource.

:p <-- this is my sarcasm face
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 09 2015 21:48 GMT
#160
On November 10 2015 04:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2015 03:57 BronzeKnee wrote:The problem is, Blizzard controlling the game is almost always universally bad because they destroy the beauty of the game. And unfortunately that is because Blizzard fails to understand how to design a beautiful game. Broodwar wasn't balanced by intelligent design, it became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered. But Blizzard couldn't control Broodwar for fear of ruining it with bad game design choices. And we know they would have ruined BW now, because we've seen what they've done with Starcraft 2.

I don't agree with the part were you say bw "became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered". Before Muta-stacking was discovered, Brood War was already a great game and it was great because of its intelligent design. Sure the developpers never expect players would play so fast and micro the way they did, but if you look at the numbers and general mechanics in the game they are very accurately laid out and give lots of possibilities. There are a lot of numbers and mechanics in the game which were never changed after release, most of them. The design of BW is very intelligent and I really think it is the primary reason why it shined so bright and is so fun to play.
Muta Stacking, in my opinion, though it changed match ups quite a bit, is not really a good thing in BW. It provokes ZvT to almost always go muta harrass at start, and allows mutas to snipe templars or probes very easily unless P has enough corsairs, for instance. It is too hard to counter Mutas with something else than corsairs in PvZ because of this, even though the game was designed intelligently with goons being a good all rounder to use against them, and archon very strong, but he can't catch up with any mutas because they are in a ball (if he does, mega damage ; similarly with storms it is risky to try it because mutaball can dodge it quite easily but if not, mega damage). In my opinion, this bug is not good for the game, but it is not possible or intelligent to try and forbid it. I think the game would be better without it, and the most creative days of BW date from before this bug entered the arena. Something that pins the early game down strongly in ZvT means that there are less diversity for the midgame as well. And ZvZ is the one true problem match up in the game, where muta battles are very central... I guess a lot probably won't agree with me about that. But anyway the game was definitely great and well balanced before muta stacking came into use.

The reason why Blizzard is not capable of doing intelligent design today like you said and I agree with you, is, I think, not because they have never been, it is because it is simply not the same company as before. Almost everybody is gone, and now they work with much bigger teams on a much more industrial model that target financial goals with little risk. Creativity and smart design is very complicated to organize in such a situation, and brings a greater sense of financial risk. They have likely hired people such as Dustin Browder for his ability to appeal to masses rather than to make a great RTS, that is exactly what the later C&Cs are. Big nukes and powerful-looking units.


I don't really like the myth to be perpetuated that BW was this wonderful designed game. It had a lot of issues that people are willing to look over because the other portions of it were good enough. This is true for all designs--as in the goal is not to design everything right, but to have enough good stuff that the bad stuff doesn't seem bad.

For example: Bio play in TvP and TvT. Essentially non-existent in BW because mech play was OP. But since mech was fun to watch--no one minded that they were a bit OP compared to bio. Muta play is OP in BW ZvZ, and really dictates a lot of how that plays out. But there was +15 to bio buff to compensate for it like they did in SC2. Why? Because players were not given the option from the get go--they did not (as a population group) feel that it was ever correct to attempt to fix BW. In SC2, the developers gives the player base so much sway and that sway has been the cause of all the issues in SC2.
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
November 09 2015 22:11 GMT
#161
Another posting with over-the-top negative criticism.

"It's loyal customers since Brood War. Catering to casuals and dumbing down the the game is not the way to go - RTS, by definition, is not a genre for casual play."

The loyal customers still can play Brood War. A Brood War remake would cater to those. To justify high development costs, you need to cater to a larger audience.

While some parts of SC2 are arguably "dumbed down", other parts are "dumbed up". Overall, SC2 is a game which requires an incredible amount of practice to be recognized as a player. It also manages what BW never could: Attract new players in sufficient numbers to make Starcraft esports events viable in the western world.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 09 2015 23:11 GMT
#162
Yes, but that is beside the point. When you pick a Quake 2, you don't expect to pick up Quake 3 and learn that you have to use jetpack instead of walking through corridors. Some of the gameplay elements have to be same or very similiar to what is already in the previous game, otherwise you are not working to establish a franchise. Even so much hated CoD doesn't change its formula, yet people still play it. Is it a good game or not is not the point.

A Brood War remake will not happen until the development of 3 announced expansions and following targets of sales are achieved. One company don't make and release 2 games of the same genre at the same time, especially if those games are meant to be long lasting - and in true RTS fashion, it is an opposite of CoD games.

Some of the most thrilling aspects of Brood War have been stripped down. There is less small things that can give you small advantages in the game like drone vs scv micro - those small things that can separate players are gone, instead, we have more significant "do it or die" moments, and more of the "one battle decides it all". We had it all the way back in WoL with the Vortex. The game is volatile. It is unfriendly to noobs with half patches, 12 worker start and dozens of active abilities for each race.

Allied Commanders and Archon mode is definately an improvement, and this is one of the things that keep the hype despite the overall feeling about the state of the multiplayer. Same with announced ladder improvements.

Of course there will be more new players. The same would happen if we had a BW HD edition as well. Over the course of last 10-15 years the percentage of computers and internet connection in households have increased - from around 20% in 1998 to around 70% in 2010, also, computer is not only used for work and you don't have to share it with 3 brothers and sisters - it is perfectly normal that we have more players/gamers then what we had years ago. Blizzard pumped some serious money on advertising and sponsorship. The game is popular but that is normal. Games and gaming is more popular then ever.
Fallout 4, Witcher 3, CoD games etc. - those are popular games, but because they are either focused on single player or simply not deep enough in CoD case, they are not e-Sports, but they still attract new players.
Also, the popularity of SC2 can be attributed to popularity of SCBW, you cannot deny that. SC2 is a newer game - it is only logical that it will attract more people.

D2 was definately a better game then D3 when it came out in its messy state and no PvP. I'm sure that it also sold better, but that is the same principle as the one with BW and SC2.

If you want to argue, pick something that has been pointed out by me as bad design or negligence in balance, and tell me for example, what is the benefit of having super strong harassment because of stats instead of super strong harassment because of players skill (for example 3 Hellions 1-shotting 10 workers vs 4 Vultures being able to snipe 10 Probes while dodging Dragoons and laying mines). Unless you don't want to argue about things like that, which will only mean that you wanted to whine about someone disagreeing with your view of "you so perfect LotV, hail Blizzard".
Don't tell me to go back and play Brood War - I was promised a worthy successor to BW, and I didn't get it because the design team doesn't know what its doing half the time. I want to play a competitive RTS with design principles of BW, not W3 in space or some twisted Starcraft with gimmicky, almost C&C elements.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
November 10 2015 14:18 GMT
#163
On November 07 2015 05:28 Nazara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2015 03:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 07 2015 00:53 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Yes ok maybe I exagerrate a bit but you know what I mean no? It is very common to see a ball just stim attack one way or the other repetitively. If you do get caught in a bad situation it can be game ending so that prevents a lot of smaller engagements to even happen. It's something I really didn't like playing WoL. But OK.


What you are describing is micro. Making the same 2-4 actions repeatedly using dexterity to gain tactical advantage. Micro is good, and should be encouraged more.
But there is no difference between Silver and Grand Master player performing stutter step with MM ball.
Marauders ability slows down units without any input from the player. You can't dodge it, or escape it. Once you decide to retreat or regroup, all the units affected by Concussive Shells are going to be destroyed. No matter how much better you are then your opponent, you lose more in the engagement. Maybe your force was split in two, maybe it was on the move and you want to get into better position. In any case, you will lose some units because you cannot save them from the automatic slowing effect.
This creates the situation when you want to be absolute sure you can engage the Bio ball and win the fight - which does not encourage fighting, quite the opposite.

I think this is what ProMeTheus is saying.

Yes, and to respond to Thieving Magpie I expect much more in micro than "making the same 2-4 actions repeatedly using dexterity to gain tactical advantage". It is true that most of the micro in SC2 is like that (I remember Ret saying "there is no micro in SC2" when SC2 came out), there is a bit of room for better things but it is not like this in BW. You have many ways to engage and play out battles. Many ways to position units, move some of them some place, feint threaten hide or retreat. You have more choice, so that it is more tactical decisions and not just dexterous.
Kerm
Profile Joined April 2010
France467 Posts
November 10 2015 14:31 GMT
#164
On November 10 2015 04:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
[...]
The reason why Blizzard is not capable of doing intelligent design today like you said and I agree with you, is, I think, not because they have never been, it is because it is simply not the same company as before. Almost everybody is gone, and now they work with much bigger teams on a much more industrial model that target financial goals with little risk. Creativity and smart design is very complicated to organize in such a situation, and brings a greater sense of financial risk. They have likely hired people such as Dustin Browder for his ability to appeal to masses rather than to make a great RTS, that is exactly what the later C&Cs are. Big nukes and powerful-looking units.


You have no idea what you are talking about, it's embarassing.

Here is a hint : http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/starcraft-brood-war/credits
What i know is that I know nothing - [http://twitter.com/UncleKerm]
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-10 14:53:10
November 10 2015 14:42 GMT
#165
On November 10 2015 06:48 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2015 04:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
On November 07 2015 03:57 BronzeKnee wrote:The problem is, Blizzard controlling the game is almost always universally bad because they destroy the beauty of the game. And unfortunately that is because Blizzard fails to understand how to design a beautiful game. Broodwar wasn't balanced by intelligent design, it became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered. But Blizzard couldn't control Broodwar for fear of ruining it with bad game design choices. And we know they would have ruined BW now, because we've seen what they've done with Starcraft 2.

I don't agree with the part were you say bw "became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered". Before Muta-stacking was discovered, Brood War was already a great game and it was great because of its intelligent design. Sure the developpers never expect players would play so fast and micro the way they did, but if you look at the numbers and general mechanics in the game they are very accurately laid out and give lots of possibilities. There are a lot of numbers and mechanics in the game which were never changed after release, most of them. The design of BW is very intelligent and I really think it is the primary reason why it shined so bright and is so fun to play.
Muta Stacking, in my opinion, though it changed match ups quite a bit, is not really a good thing in BW. It provokes ZvT to almost always go muta harrass at start, and allows mutas to snipe templars or probes very easily unless P has enough corsairs, for instance. It is too hard to counter Mutas with something else than corsairs in PvZ because of this, even though the game was designed intelligently with goons being a good all rounder to use against them, and archon very strong, but he can't catch up with any mutas because they are in a ball (if he does, mega damage ; similarly with storms it is risky to try it because mutaball can dodge it quite easily but if not, mega damage). In my opinion, this bug is not good for the game, but it is not possible or intelligent to try and forbid it. I think the game would be better without it, and the most creative days of BW date from before this bug entered the arena. Something that pins the early game down strongly in ZvT means that there are less diversity for the midgame as well. And ZvZ is the one true problem match up in the game, where muta battles are very central... I guess a lot probably won't agree with me about that. But anyway the game was definitely great and well balanced before muta stacking came into use.

The reason why Blizzard is not capable of doing intelligent design today like you said and I agree with you, is, I think, not because they have never been, it is because it is simply not the same company as before. Almost everybody is gone, and now they work with much bigger teams on a much more industrial model that target financial goals with little risk. Creativity and smart design is very complicated to organize in such a situation, and brings a greater sense of financial risk. They have likely hired people such as Dustin Browder for his ability to appeal to masses rather than to make a great RTS, that is exactly what the later C&Cs are. Big nukes and powerful-looking units.


I don't really like the myth to be perpetuated that BW was this wonderful designed game. It had a lot of issues that people are willing to look over because the other portions of it were good enough. This is true for all designs--as in the goal is not to design everything right, but to have enough good stuff that the bad stuff doesn't seem bad.

For example: Bio play in TvP and TvT. Essentially non-existent in BW because mech play was OP. But since mech was fun to watch--no one minded that they were a bit OP compared to bio. Muta play is OP in BW ZvZ, and really dictates a lot of how that plays out. But there was +15 to bio buff to compensate for it like they did in SC2. Why? Because players were not given the option from the get go--they did not (as a population group) feel that it was ever correct to attempt to fix BW. In SC2, the developers gives the player base so much sway and that sway has been the cause of all the issues in SC2.


Naracs_Duc, I completely agree with you about Bio play being essentially non-existent in TvP and TvT in BW being a shame and that if there were a little more room for it that would probably be better (remember the early days in early 2000s we were seeing sometimes, quite rarely, marines play from pros in the midgame in TvP, even rarely in TvT I have seen a marine army^^ or tricky marine rushes with bunkers on that map). I think it is alright if some matchups priviledge a set of units/tech style to an extent but if room can be given to most things at least in a range of situations/possibilities it is better. Diversity is very good in a strategy game. I also agree with Muta being too strong and the problem it brings in ZvZ and to an extent in ZvT. I have written about this before : it is true that BW's balance is not perfect.
But even though it is not perfect, it is still great, and mech play in particular in many ways is very solid, interesting and brings a lot different things happening. I really love PvT! It is a great example of a match up where T plays with just 2 then 3-4 units, and yet has a high complexity and never happens the same because the design and mechanics allow for a lot of room in different plays. You also don't just build mech in the same way, you can go about it in a lot of different ways (one important reason is because defender advantage is very real especially with mech, so you have more choice in what to build). I don't know what you mean about +15 to bio buff, no such thing in BW? Marines have always been 40hp 6 damage 50minerals, firebats or medics have also never changed as far as I remember.
I think in SC2, mech is generally not satisfying, the positional game has been lost altogether bringing a lot less tactics, tanks are not good, hellions are a poor unit compared to vultures for the reason that Nazara said, Thor is pretty much about can you have enough when they are cost effective... People would want mech to be better because it fails to be as interesting, and also I think because bio play is quite annoying and too straightforward. It damages too fast, is too mobile, very very ball-y, microed in a repetitive way, and dies way too fast to some AoEs, bringing more volatile straightforward play. On top of that Marauders discourage possibilities of engaging, and moving within battles.
Generally ball-y armies in SC2 mean AoEs are very strong and it is a core of AoEs being such an important tool to win battles and the game being so volatile. Because of bio is so ball-y, I think people would like to play more mech. And, it is probably hard to make tanks strong in this situation because a high-range strong little AoE attack would wreck hard. The pathing must be changed for the game to be better, but then everything has to be changed as well. That is my opinion.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-10 15:38:03
November 10 2015 15:01 GMT
#166
On November 10 2015 23:31 Kerm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2015 04:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
[...]
The reason why Blizzard is not capable of doing intelligent design today like you said and I agree with you, is, I think, not because they have never been, it is because it is simply not the same company as before. Almost everybody is gone, and now they work with much bigger teams on a much more industrial model that target financial goals with little risk. Creativity and smart design is very complicated to organize in such a situation, and brings a greater sense of financial risk. They have likely hired people such as Dustin Browder for his ability to appeal to masses rather than to make a great RTS, that is exactly what the later C&Cs are. Big nukes and powerful-looking units.


You have no idea what you are talking about, it's embarassing.

Here is a hint : http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/starcraft-brood-war/credits

Ok so according to this site, 50 people who worked on BW also worked on SC2. I didn't know this thx for the info. But I think my point about the large team and financial/industrial model is a very important cause. Even if I am wrong about something doesn't mean I have no idea what I am talking about, I did witness at some point around after WoW coming out people left blizzard, who said they had worked on Starcraft, funding ArenaNet and others. Of course not everyone is going to stay but I don't know the details exactly of who stayed and what role they have had on both games. Interestingly there are 38 left for HoTs as opposed to 50 for WoL. Don't know how many for LoTV ? And the way that blizz worked on games has changed a lot, the size of the company is completely different too, at some point I remember reading articles saying they hired a lot of people and headcount was so much higher, that was after WoW came out too I think.
Kerm
Profile Joined April 2010
France467 Posts
November 10 2015 15:42 GMT
#167
Glad you made the effort to check the link.
Here is the important nugget of info : the lead designer on SC:BW (Rob Pardo), was Design Director on SC2:WoL. What that means is that the guy who actually made the game that some worship so much, in fact validated everything about the design of the game they so despise saying non-sense like : "why didn't they hire good designers for SC2 ?". Ultimately it's the same people making the calls.

But you are right I went a little rough on you
On to your point : yeah Blizzard teams probably do have different constraints now than then. However saying because of that they are not capable of doing "intelligent design" is incredibly arrogant and dismissive of the real reason those people do games : out of passion.
What i know is that I know nothing - [http://twitter.com/UncleKerm]
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-10 15:52:30
November 10 2015 15:45 GMT
#168
On November 11 2015 00:42 Kerm wrote:
Glad you made the effort to check the link.
Here is the important nugget of info : the lead designer on SC:BW (Rob Pardo), was Design Director on SC2:WoL. What that means is that the guy who actually made the game that some worship so much, in fact validated everything about the design of the game they so despise saying non-sense like : "why didn't they hire good designers for SC2 ?". Ultimately it's the same people making the calls.

But you are right I went a little rough on you
On to your point : yeah Blizzard teams probably do have different constraints now than then. However saying because of that they are not capable of doing "intelligent design" is incredibly arrogant and dismissive of the real reason those people do games : out of passion.

Yeah ok you are right the wording "not capable of doing intelligent design" is a bit arrogant/dismissive I'll try to watch it lol :p
generally when I say blizzard I mean the company as a corporate entity and not the people who work in it. Because I don't think they get nearly as much room to express themselves anymore for what I have read, though I am not in the company. But I have read short interviews about that on Daeity's blog for example, there was an anonymous artist explaining his job was to draw specific buttons that he was told to draw.
Kerm
Profile Joined April 2010
France467 Posts
November 10 2015 16:38 GMT
#169
Did not know Daeity's blog.
Looks like it's not exactly a good source of information

( at least controversial : http://digitalfrustration.blogspot.de/2012/03/d-timeline.html ).
What i know is that I know nothing - [http://twitter.com/UncleKerm]
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-10 16:54:19
November 10 2015 16:47 GMT
#170
it was good man, but it got closed down after he said he received threats
He usually backed his info with good references and accurately predicted some things. He had a few insider sources (apparently). Blizzard never commented on it but threads that linked to it on the forums were deleted, which points that at least some of what he wrote was probably true.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 10 2015 17:31 GMT
#171
On November 10 2015 23:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2015 06:48 Naracs_Duc wrote:
On November 10 2015 04:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
On November 07 2015 03:57 BronzeKnee wrote:The problem is, Blizzard controlling the game is almost always universally bad because they destroy the beauty of the game. And unfortunately that is because Blizzard fails to understand how to design a beautiful game. Broodwar wasn't balanced by intelligent design, it became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered. But Blizzard couldn't control Broodwar for fear of ruining it with bad game design choices. And we know they would have ruined BW now, because we've seen what they've done with Starcraft 2.

I don't agree with the part were you say bw "became balanced unintentionally with things like Muta-stacking were discovered". Before Muta-stacking was discovered, Brood War was already a great game and it was great because of its intelligent design. Sure the developpers never expect players would play so fast and micro the way they did, but if you look at the numbers and general mechanics in the game they are very accurately laid out and give lots of possibilities. There are a lot of numbers and mechanics in the game which were never changed after release, most of them. The design of BW is very intelligent and I really think it is the primary reason why it shined so bright and is so fun to play.
Muta Stacking, in my opinion, though it changed match ups quite a bit, is not really a good thing in BW. It provokes ZvT to almost always go muta harrass at start, and allows mutas to snipe templars or probes very easily unless P has enough corsairs, for instance. It is too hard to counter Mutas with something else than corsairs in PvZ because of this, even though the game was designed intelligently with goons being a good all rounder to use against them, and archon very strong, but he can't catch up with any mutas because they are in a ball (if he does, mega damage ; similarly with storms it is risky to try it because mutaball can dodge it quite easily but if not, mega damage). In my opinion, this bug is not good for the game, but it is not possible or intelligent to try and forbid it. I think the game would be better without it, and the most creative days of BW date from before this bug entered the arena. Something that pins the early game down strongly in ZvT means that there are less diversity for the midgame as well. And ZvZ is the one true problem match up in the game, where muta battles are very central... I guess a lot probably won't agree with me about that. But anyway the game was definitely great and well balanced before muta stacking came into use.

The reason why Blizzard is not capable of doing intelligent design today like you said and I agree with you, is, I think, not because they have never been, it is because it is simply not the same company as before. Almost everybody is gone, and now they work with much bigger teams on a much more industrial model that target financial goals with little risk. Creativity and smart design is very complicated to organize in such a situation, and brings a greater sense of financial risk. They have likely hired people such as Dustin Browder for his ability to appeal to masses rather than to make a great RTS, that is exactly what the later C&Cs are. Big nukes and powerful-looking units.


I don't really like the myth to be perpetuated that BW was this wonderful designed game. It had a lot of issues that people are willing to look over because the other portions of it were good enough. This is true for all designs--as in the goal is not to design everything right, but to have enough good stuff that the bad stuff doesn't seem bad.

For example: Bio play in TvP and TvT. Essentially non-existent in BW because mech play was OP. But since mech was fun to watch--no one minded that they were a bit OP compared to bio. Muta play is OP in BW ZvZ, and really dictates a lot of how that plays out. But there was +15 to bio buff to compensate for it like they did in SC2. Why? Because players were not given the option from the get go--they did not (as a population group) feel that it was ever correct to attempt to fix BW. In SC2, the developers gives the player base so much sway and that sway has been the cause of all the issues in SC2.


Naracs_Duc, I completely agree with you about Bio play being essentially non-existent in TvP and TvT in BW being a shame and that if there were a little more room for it that would probably be better (remember the early days in early 2000s we were seeing sometimes, quite rarely, marines play from pros in the midgame in TvP, even rarely in TvT I have seen a marine army^^ or tricky marine rushes with bunkers on that map). I think it is alright if some matchups priviledge a set of units/tech style to an extent but if room can be given to most things at least in a range of situations/possibilities it is better. Diversity is very good in a strategy game. I also agree with Muta being too strong and the problem it brings in ZvZ and to an extent in ZvT. I have written about this before : it is true that BW's balance is not perfect.
But even though it is not perfect, it is still great, and mech play in particular in many ways is very solid, interesting and brings a lot different things happening. I really love PvT! It is a great example of a match up where T plays with just 2 then 3-4 units, and yet has a high complexity and never happens the same because the design and mechanics allow for a lot of room in different plays. You also don't just build mech in the same way, you can go about it in a lot of different ways (one important reason is because defender advantage is very real especially with mech, so you have more choice in what to build). I don't know what you mean about +15 to bio buff, no such thing in BW? Marines have always been 40hp 6 damage 50minerals, firebats or medics have also never changed as far as I remember.
I think in SC2, mech is generally not satisfying, the positional game has been lost altogether bringing a lot less tactics, tanks are not good, hellions are a poor unit compared to vultures for the reason that Nazara said, Thor is pretty much about can you have enough when they are cost effective... People would want mech to be better because it fails to be as interesting, and also I think because bio play is quite annoying and too straightforward. It damages too fast, is too mobile, very very ball-y, microed in a repetitive way, and dies way too fast to some AoEs, bringing more volatile straightforward play. On top of that Marauders discourage possibilities of engaging, and moving within battles.
Generally ball-y armies in SC2 mean AoEs are very strong and it is a core of AoEs being such an important tool to win battles and the game being so volatile. Because of bio is so ball-y, I think people would like to play more mech. And, it is probably hard to make tanks strong in this situation because a high-range strong little AoE attack would wreck hard. The pathing must be changed for the game to be better, but then everything has to be changed as well. That is my opinion.


The +15 was a mistype on my phone.

In BW, Muta ruled ZvZ and players just learnt to deal with it.
In SC2, muta ruled ZvZ and players whined until +15 to biological was given to spore crawlers.

It was a reference to how, because the player base is given so much say, that dynamics are not allowed to evolve since players feel like the moment things are hard they can always fall back on Blizz.

Back to the main topic--the thing I missed about BW was that it didn't matter that things were bad (like bio play being only good in TvZ), so long as enough things were good you never cared. I feel that the player base wanting all units to be good in all matchups in the same timings and in the same map designs is hurting the game.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-10 17:42:45
November 10 2015 17:40 GMT
#172
On November 11 2015 02:31 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Back to the main topic--the thing I missed about BW was that it didn't matter that things were bad (like bio play being only good in TvZ), so long as enough things were good you never cared. I feel that the player base wanting all units to be good in all matchups in the same timings and in the same map designs is hurting the game.

Maybe. It's an interesting point. Personally, I think that if you have most units good in all matchups, with some exceptions, but each with different ranges of timings, roles, or maps is great.
For example, never seeing firebats try to kill zealots I think is too bad Or more room to play with scouts, Battlecruisers, or devourers. BCs they were used even by pros in TvZ at the time but then some Z started to just wait and then mass scourge them I think and then no more BCs? But at that time they played on island maps as well which turned out imba over time. eheh
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 10 2015 18:06 GMT
#173
On November 11 2015 02:40 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2015 02:31 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Back to the main topic--the thing I missed about BW was that it didn't matter that things were bad (like bio play being only good in TvZ), so long as enough things were good you never cared. I feel that the player base wanting all units to be good in all matchups in the same timings and in the same map designs is hurting the game.

Maybe. It's an interesting point. Personally, I think that if you have most units good in all matchups, with some exceptions, but each with different ranges of timings, roles, or maps is great.
For example, never seeing firebats try to kill zealots I think is too bad Or more room to play with scouts, Battlecruisers, or devourers. BCs they were used even by pros in TvZ at the time but then some Z started to just wait and then mass scourge them I think and then no more BCs? But at that time they played on island maps as well which turned out imba over time. eheh


Dire Straits was one of my favorite vs comps map in vanilla SC... #neverforget #2rax-float-rush
flanksteak
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada246 Posts
November 10 2015 18:52 GMT
#174
On November 11 2015 02:31 Naracs_Duc wrote:
The +15 was a mistype on my phone.

In BW, Muta ruled ZvZ and players just learnt to deal with it.
In SC2, muta ruled ZvZ and players whined until +15 to biological was given to spore crawlers.

It was a reference to how, because the player base is given so much say, that dynamics are not allowed to evolve since players feel like the moment things are hard they can always fall back on Blizz.

Back to the main topic--the thing I missed about BW was that it didn't matter that things were bad (like bio play being only good in TvZ), so long as enough things were good you never cared. I feel that the player base wanting all units to be good in all matchups in the same timings and in the same map designs is hurting the game.


Agreed. While I like that blizzard acknowledges and is willing to at least explore balance issues brought up by the community, and generally it has made the game better, I'd hope they continue to do so very slowly/carefully; if only to prevent players from having the mentality that something will be patched if they complain about it. Even if something really is "imbalanced" in the game, you'll have a better sense of what to change/what is imbalanced if players genuinely try to solve the game on their own. That said, I do enjoy ground armies a lot more, so the ZvZ change turned out to be a good one for me
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
November 13 2015 18:07 GMT
#175
Why don't add the healing shield ability on Sentries and remove the heroic mothershion core once and for all?
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 13 2015 18:19 GMT
#176
On November 14 2015 03:07 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Why don't add the healing shield ability on Sentries and remove the heroic mothershion core once and for all?


How are those two related?
robopork
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States511 Posts
November 13 2015 18:25 GMT
#177
On November 14 2015 03:07 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Why don't add the healing shield ability on Sentries and remove the heroic mothershion core once and for all?


I think a world where adepts can have their shields healed on the go is probably not one we want to live in
“This left me alone to solve the coffee problem - a sort of catch-22, as in order to think straight I need caffeine, and in order to make that happen I need to think straight.”
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
November 13 2015 18:28 GMT
#178
On November 14 2015 03:25 robopork wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2015 03:07 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Why don't add the healing shield ability on Sentries and remove the heroic mothershion core once and for all?


I think a world where adepts can have their shields healed on the go is probably not one we want to live in


When I think of Zealots--what I think is that they should be even more tanky.
RevTiberius
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada353 Posts
November 15 2015 04:18 GMT
#179
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?

I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.

Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair

Teaching Chess to a Starcraft 2 Grandmaster: http://revtiberius.blogspot.ca
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
November 15 2015 05:56 GMT
#180


you guys need to lighten up and just enjoy shit for what it is, like these guys.
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
November 15 2015 14:10 GMT
#181
On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?

I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.

Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair

https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226

Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft.
Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt.

Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great.
Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems.
If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been.

Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 15 2015 16:28 GMT
#182
On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?

I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.

Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair

https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226

Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft.
Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt.

Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great.
Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems.
If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been.

Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.


Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)

Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.

For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Ansibled
Profile Joined November 2014
United Kingdom9872 Posts
November 15 2015 16:32 GMT
#183
I find it really weird that you link your own tweets...
'StarCraft is just a fairy tale told to scare children actually.'
TL+ Member
xtorn
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
4060 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-15 16:38:21
November 15 2015 16:36 GMT
#184
who the hell is "RevTiberius" that i have to see the tweet of, and why should i care
Life - forever the Legend in my heart
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-15 16:53:26
November 15 2015 16:49 GMT
#185
On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:
On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?

I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.

Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair

https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226

Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft.
Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt.

Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great.
Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems.
If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been.

Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.


Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)

Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.

For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.


So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months.

Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed.

Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!"

And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP.
Espers
Profile Joined August 2009
United Kingdom606 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-15 16:55:47
November 15 2015 16:54 GMT
#186
these are all really good points but LotV has pretty much shown the direction Blizzards wants to take - I don't think we'll see any drastic changes. maybe you should look into making a mod to try your thoughts
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 15 2015 20:50 GMT
#187
On November 16 2015 01:49 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:
On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?

I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.

Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair

https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226

Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft.
Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt.

Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great.
Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems.
If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been.

Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.


Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)

Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.

For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.


So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months.

Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed.

Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!"

And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP.


Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time?

People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong. They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy. They then complained that early game Zerg was too weak. So in one patch Blizz answered all 3 player requests by shortening Fungal to 4 seconds and increasing queen range +1 and increasing Overlord sight range +1. The end result was Broodfestors. Yet--Terran still kept winning. Players suddenly were asking Blizz to nerf the race who was already losing in top level competition.

The only valid conclusion to that is that players have no idea how to balance games.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-15 23:42:48
November 15 2015 23:40 GMT
#188
On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)

Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.

For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.
I don't remember how it went. But the thing is, Blizzard should know better then listening to random people on the forums. They should know which ideas are good, and which are bad.

Easier to defend naturals and thirds is more of a map makers job. Changes to ramps/chokes are enough to make expansions easier to defend.

The biggest issue is that Blizzard doesn't seem to think through changes that it makes. They seem to live in some utopian bubble where only issues in pro games are addressed, and sometimes someone's random post on their forums is taken way too serious.
And if they listen to community, they decide to use the most half assed solutions.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12384 Posts
November 16 2015 00:45 GMT
#189
The infestor change was good, it opened up a whole new strategy to play Zerg.
Everyone went ling baneling muta in zvt and roach hydra corruptor in zvp before the change.

The Icefisher build and double up lings were more or less discovered around that time. (Helped by queen buff which I think came a bit later)

Its a shame we don't even see infestors in mid game much anymore. In hots it's pretty much ling baneling muta vs wm bio all 24/7 which has little strategy variation other than opening.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
November 16 2015 00:46 GMT
#190
On November 16 2015 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 01:49 Hider wrote:
On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:
On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?

I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.

Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair

https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226

Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft.
Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt.

Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great.
Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems.
If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been.

Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.


Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)

Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.

For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.


So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months.

Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed.

Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!"

And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP.


Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time?

People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong. They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy. They then complained that early game Zerg was too weak. So in one patch Blizz answered all 3 player requests by shortening Fungal to 4 seconds and increasing queen range +1 and increasing Overlord sight range +1. The end result was Broodfestors. Yet--Terran still kept winning. Players suddenly were asking Blizz to nerf the race who was already losing in top level competition.

The only valid conclusion to that is that players have no idea how to balance games.


stop spreading false facts! the fungal change came with patch 1.3 in march 2011. by then broodlord infestor wasnt a problem yet. The queen change was patch 1.4.3 in february 2012! so a year later and not in the same patch. if you want to make a point in a discussion use accurate information instead of pulling information out of your ass.
aka Kalevi
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 16 2015 04:32 GMT
#191
On November 16 2015 09:46 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 16 2015 01:49 Hider wrote:
On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:
On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?

I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.

Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair

https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226

Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft.
Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt.

Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great.
Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems.
If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been.

Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.


Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)

Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.

For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.


So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months.

Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed.

Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!"

And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP.


Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time?

People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong. They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy. They then complained that early game Zerg was too weak. So in one patch Blizz answered all 3 player requests by shortening Fungal to 4 seconds and increasing queen range +1 and increasing Overlord sight range +1. The end result was Broodfestors. Yet--Terran still kept winning. Players suddenly were asking Blizz to nerf the race who was already losing in top level competition.

The only valid conclusion to that is that players have no idea how to balance games.


stop spreading false facts! the fungal change came with patch 1.3 in march 2011. by then broodlord infestor wasnt a problem yet. The queen change was patch 1.4.3 in february 2012! so a year later and not in the same patch. if you want to make a point in a discussion use accurate information instead of pulling information out of your ass.


I apologize. It turns out Blizz was listening to player requests for far longer than I remember. No wonder the game balance got so wrecked. Had Blizz stopped listening to players sooner there wouldn't have been as much of a problem.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-16 15:03:25
November 16 2015 14:59 GMT
#192
People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong.


OMG. Noone did that. Zerg was considered underpowered prior to Fungal Buff. Seriously stop spreading up this misinformation.

Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time?


No the game was fundamentally flawed and needed a reoverhaul. WOL Fungal Growth with no counterplay definitely wasn't the correct solution.

They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy.


No it was clearly a huge buff from the get-go. before that, toss latae game was unstopable vs Zerg.

Zergs also started massing Infestors a couple of months after and in mid/late 2011, it also started to seem zerg-favored in ZvT at pro level. But then terrans discovered Snipe and the matchup was broken in a different way.

The correct response would be to nerf snipe and redesign Fungal Growth at the same time while buffing Zerg early game (e.g. queen range buff, perhaps to 4 instead of 5 - regardless, the real issue was Fungal Growth and not the range of queen. Queen range buff just made it easier for Zerg to get to the unstopable late game comp).

At the time, all of that was obvious to me, and I believe that if you could go through my post history for several years ago, you would find comments indicating that.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-16 20:38:51
November 16 2015 18:31 GMT
#193
Normal
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