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7 Deadly Sins of Macro Boosters

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 21:48:47
August 25 2015 21:46 GMT
#1
This post is just my personal opinion, and I’m not even a good player, so take everything with a grain of salt.

Seeing The Forest Beyond The Trees:
Nearly all recent discussions on Macro Boosters focus around a single issue: Mechanical Difficulty. Folks who want Starcraft 2 to be mechanically difficult argue that Macro Boosters need to stay, while folks who think the game is too hard argue that Macro Boosters need to be removed/tuned down. The community’s collective vision is blocked by a single tree and we have lost sight of the forest beyond.

Questioning the premise: Why must we bundle together Mechanical Difficulty and Macro Boosters in a single discussion? How do Macro Boosters affect the game other than mechanics? Can we not inject Mechanical Difficulty in other areas of the game even if Macro Boosters are removed?

In this post, I will not engage in the discussion on Mechanical Difficulty. I believe that while Macro Boosters may provide some benefit to the game in the form of mechanics, their negative affects on other areas of the game far outweigh their positive, and they should be removed at once. If players want more Mechanical Difficulty after the removal of Macro Boosters, we can find other ways to inject difficulty into the game.

Sin #1: Time Compression Lowers the Quality of the Game
Shout out to this article that elaborated quite a bit on time compression, and how it causes players to lose control of the game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482697-razzia-of-the-blizzsters

Often we hear people say: “Man, both players executed everything perfectly! What an epic game!” vs. “Well, both players made many disappointing mistakes this game, they must be having an off day.” The quality of an SC2 game is determined by how close to perfection the players perform. How does time factor into the quality of the game?

Imaging two chess Grandmasters playing a game with 3 hours on each player’s clock. Both Grandmasters can think 20 moves deep, and with plenty of time on the clock, every move they make is nearly perfect. The quality of the game is very high. Now let’s compress time. The same two chess Grandmasters play a ‘bullet chess’ game with only 1 minute on each player’s clock. With no time to think, both Grandmasters start to make some mistakes they would never make in a normal time setting. The game may still be entertaining to watch, but with so many mistakes, the quality of the game has been lowered from grandmaster level to amateur level.

The first negative impact of Macro Boosters is that they drastically speed up the economy. (I will talk about the uneven time compression between economy and other aspects of the game later, for now I will focus on the general speed boost) Since the economy determines the range of possible actions one can make, speeding up the economy speeds up the rest of the game, and time is compressed.

How fast is too fast? That’s a debatable question too large to cover in this post. However, one can easily imagine that, if we go to the extreme, such as setting the game speed to X10, no progamer will be fast enough to macro or micro properly, players will make ridiculous blunders, being unable to control the game. While this may provide some entertainment, the quality of game will be garbage.

I believe that a slower game CAN be more action packed than a faster one. Because a slower game gives players more time to think, to act, and to react. Simply put, with more time at the player’s disposal, the player has more control over the game. This will enable the players to make less mistakes, and raise the quality of the game. In contrast, by making the game faster, the player has less time to think, to act, and to react. Consequently the player with less time at his disposal will make more mistakes, and the quality of the game will be lowered.

Once again, I am not attempting to debate whether the current game is too fast or too slow, that topic deserves its own discussion. What I am saying is that there is an inverse relationship between game speed and the amount of control a player has over the game. Faster game -> less time for players-> less control for players -> more mistakes -> lower quality game.

This is Sin #1 of Macro Boosters. They drastically speed up the game and compress time, and thus take control away from players, causing more mistakes, and lower the quality of the game overall. Will the removal of the Macro Boosters make the game too slow? Just right? Still too fast? I don’t know the answer. What I do know is that by giving players more time and thus more control, they will make less mistakes, and the quality of Starcraft 2 will improve.

Sin #2: Time Compression Reduces the Skill Gap
I dare to make a prediction. If we set the game speed to X10, there will be no skill gap at all between Code A and Code S players. What good is skill when you have no time to demonstrate your skill?

A concern that is hotly debated right now is: How will the removal of Macro Boosters affect the macro skill gap? Some folks believe that the Mechanical Difficulty of the Macro Boosters is what separates the good from the bad. I hold the opposite opinion, I believe that Macro Boosters actually reduce the macro skill gap, and here is why:

The difficulty of macro lies in multitasking, not just in mechanical speed. If you ask the progamers to macro without an opponent in the game, there will be no difference in their mechanical execution. What differentiate a player with good macro from the rest is multitasking, to produce stuff while doing a million other things at the same time, such as engaging your opponent or defending against harassment.

How much time does a player have in SC 2 to demonstrate superior macro? It is the amount of time between the start of the game to when peak economy saturation is reached. The faster players can reach peak saturation, the less time they have to demonstrate their macro and multitasking skills. Simple comparison: if it only takes players 5 minutes to reach peak saturation, they only have to deal with a few harassments and may be one small attack before their full economy kicks in; but if it takes players 20 minutes to reach peak saturation, they will have to deal with a lot more harassments and likely many frontal attacks before their full economy kicks in. In which scenario do players have more opportunities to demonstrate superior macro and multitasking? The one with more time.

Sin #2 of Macro Boosters is that by speeding up the economy so much, peak saturation can be reached very fast for all players, this diminishes the value of having good macro and multitasking by reducing the amount of time a player has to demonstrate his skill level. By removing the Macro Boosters, peak saturation will take far longer to reach, giving players more time to harass and attack each other, more time to show off their superior macro and multitasking skill level, and thus increases the skill gap in game.

Sin #3: Time Compression Reduces Comeback Potential
Last topic on time compression. Players need time to make a comeback.

Macro Boosters reduce the amount of time it takes to go from one phase of the game to another. The time compression in economy largely causes SC 2 to be a very all-in game with little chances of making a comeback. How many workers can a player make in one minute of game time? If the number is low, the player who fell behind in worker count has time to catch up because his opponent won’t be able to explode in worker count. With the Macro Boosters, however, to fall behind in economy means your opponent will snowball you very quickly afterwards. One simply cannot catch up in worker count when his opponent is making 20 drones per inject, and therefore, the player who fell behind is forced to all-in.

If a Terran player begins his parade push vs Zerg and fails to do anything with the first wave, how much time does he have to make something happen before he is mined out of minerals? How much time does he have before Zerg is fully saturated on 4 bases? How much time does he have before Zerg gets ultras out? The longer theses timing windows, the more chances he has to make a comeback.

Sin #3 of Macro Boosters is that by speeding up the economy, and thus reducing the amount of time it takes go from one phase of the game to another, players are deprived of the time they need to make comebacks happen.

Sin #4: Uneven Opportunity Costs Reduce Strategic Diversity
Previously I’ve noted that Macro Boosters speed up the economy without affect other game speed settings, such as unit movement, shooting speed, etc. This uneven time compression heavily skews the opportunity costs of different strategic options. Because the economy is the only aspect of the game that is directly sped up by Macro Boosters, the option to go economy is usually superior to all other options.

What is a non-all-in fast tech build that can go toe to toe with the standard economic build? It doesn’t exist. If you tech really fast instead of working on your economy, you have to do crippling amounts of damage to your opponent, or you simply lose from the economic damage you inflicted on yourself by not choosing the economic option.

What is a non-all-in fast army build that can go toe to toe with the standard economic build? It doesn’t exist. If you made fast army production buildings instead of working on your economy, you once again have to do crippling amounts of damage to your opponent, or you simply lose from the economic damage you inflicted on yourself by not choosing the economic option.

In the current game, if you are not going for the economic option, you are basically all-in. Because if you don’t go for the economic option, your Macro Boosters are wasted while your opponent will explode in economy. In other words, Macro Boosters help the economic option so much they make all other options all-in.

This is Sin #4 of the Macro Boosters. By skewing the balance of opportunity costs between economy vs tech vs army, the Macro Boosters make every non-economic build an all-in. This reduces the amount of strategic diversity in the game and is very harmful for RTS. In HOTS, you either all in, or you turtle to peak saturation while sending out a few harassing units. No other strategic options exist, because the economic option is way too good due to the Macro Boosters.

By removing Macro Boosters, the economic option will be more balanced compared to other options. Already in LOTV, Terrans are experiencing a mineral/gas “imbalance” in bio play. Without mules pumping so much extra minerals into the Terran economy, tech options such as going for Liberator harass has become more attractive. Players are no longer forced to make Orbitals as soon as they can afford it. The third CC can now be made into a PF for better defense. Etc… Once the game becomes balanced without Macro Boosters, I predict we will see an explosion in strategic diversity of tech builds and fast army builds that are not all-ins for all three races.

Sin #5: Uneven Opportunity Costs Makes the Game Less Action-Packed
This is heavily related to the previous point that the economic option is too good compared to other options due to Macro Boosters, but this point is significant enough that I will give it a different section.

The so called early to mid-game “action” we have in HOTS is either all-in or sending out a few overly cost-efficient harassment units. If neither player all-ins, we basically have a turtle fest until peak saturation is reached, and the only units that leave base are oracles and medivacs with mines. The strength of harassment units have a lot to do with this, but that is a different topic entirely. Here, I will discuss the negative impact of Macro Boosters on “action”.

By skewing the opportunity costs heavily in favor of the economic option, Macro Boosters discourage players from making faster armies if they do not wish to gamble on all-ins. When two players want to play it “safe”, they are forced to focus completely on economy while relying on a few harassment units to keep their opponent honest. This is because if players invest in early army production buildings and combat units, their opponents who go for the economic option will explode in economy and snowball them very quickly, essentially putting the army player in an all-in situation. The effect of this is we never see any fight for map control or positioning or pressure play in the early mid-game in “macro” games. The opportunity cost of doing anything other than going full economy is too high.

This is Sin #5 of Macro Boosters. By boosting the economic option so much, they discourage players from making early combat units unless they want to go all-in. Without combat units, players cannot fight for map control, or apply army pressure to their opponent, and what we have left is a turtle fest in the early mid-game.

Sin #6: Uneven Boost to Low Tech Unit Production Causes Death Ball Play
In RTS, there is an inherent unit balance rule: low tech units that are cheap and build fast need to have poor stats, whereas high tech units that are expensive and build slowly need to have good stats. The gap in efficiency between the low tech units and the high tech units cannot become too wide, or the game will always go into death ball play. Let me explain:
Take for example, blink stalker vs immortal/colossi. Blink stalkers are cheaper and build faster compared to the Robotic units, so by necessity, there needs to be an efficiency gap between blink stalkers and Robotic units. But how wide of an efficiency gap is appropriate? If blink stalkers are too strong, the sheer number and production speed of blink stalkers will overwhelm immortal/colossi, everyone will make blink stalkers and we will never see a death ball. In contrast, if the efficiency of immortal/colossi are too high, they will melt any number of blink stalkers, then everyone will make immortal/colossi and we will see death balls in every game.

You may be wondering: how do Macro Boosters factor into all this? Well, low tech units are almost exclusively limited by economy, while high tech units have additional limiting factors such as tech building construction, unit production, and research speed. Macro Boosters speed up the economy drastically but do not directly affect other game speeds such as tech building construction, unit production, and research. (Chrono boost effect is already factored into Protoss build/research timings that it is more of a catch up rather than a boost) This means that Macro Boosters have a much bigger impact on low tech unit production compared to high tech unit production. More economy directly translates into producing more low-tech units, but high tech units are still limited by all the other game speed factors. This creates a big gap in unit count between how many low tech units a player can make vs how many high tech units a player can make. The big gap in unit count in turn creates a big gap in unit efficiency to compensate for the numerical difference. The big gap in efficiency makes high tech units scale much better into the late game, and thus people like to make death balls.

Sin #6 of Macro Boosters is they have a much bigger impact on low tech unit production compared to high tech unit production, caused by the uneven boost to economy but not to other game speeds. This creates a chain of effects that widens the unit efficiency gap between low tech and high tech units, which makes high tech units scale much better into the late game, causing death ball play. Removing the macro boosters will slow down the economy, thus remove the direct production boost to low tech units. This will lessen the numerical gap between low tech and high tech units, which will then allow the efficiency gap between low tech and high tech units to become smaller. Low tech units will then be able to scale better into the late game, and we won’t have as much death ball play.

Sin #7: Zerg Death Ball
This one is going be a bit selfish, and even more of a personal opinion than the rest of my personal opinions. I just don’t like the idea of a Zerg death ball at all... Zerg is supposed to win with quantity instead of quality right? Then how come Zerg has to make death balls to compete in the late game, and that the Zerg death ball is arguably the most cost efficient of all three races? Makes no sense to me…

Well, actually it does. In the previous sin #6 I talked about the economic effect of Macro Boosters on low tech unit production. Here I want to highlight the production capacity effect that is specific to Zerg’s larva inject. I’ll just come out and say it, the amount of production capacity Zerg gets from larva inject is stupid, and is terrible for the Zerg race design. Adding on top of the economic effect from earlier, larva inject also directly boosts the amount of units Zerg can make, which further widens the numerical gap between low tech and high tech units. This in turn further widens the efficiency gap between low tech and high tech units to compensate for the numerical difference, causing Zerg death balls.

The most obvious example is the roach, with the drone explosion (more economy) and larva explosion (more production capacity) that larva inject provides, Zerg can max out on roaches very fast. This creates a huge numerical disparity between how many roaches Zerg can have in the early-mid game vs how many units other races can have. Terran and Protoss can only produce a small fraction of units in terms of numbers to deal with the roaches, which then by necessity means those fewer units must be many times more cost efficient compared to roaches, which then makes roaches scale horribly into the late game, to the point Zerg basically has to trade off all the roaches and switch completely into higher tech unit compositions in the late game, aka death balls.

Sin #7 of Macro Boosters, well, just larva inject, is that on top of the economic boost to low tech unit production, it also provides a production capacity boost to low tech unit production, further widening the efficiency gap between low and high tech units, which further causes Zerg to have to switch into a death ball composition. It is my sincere hope that larva inject be removed completely, not tuned down to two larva with auto-inject, so that both the economic and production capacity boost to Zerg low tech units are removed. This will lessen the numerical gap between Zerg’s low and high tech units, and thus lessen the efficiency gap as well. Which means Zerg low tech units can then scale better into the late game, and this whole Zerg death ball business can be eliminated.

Conclusion: Macro Boosters Do More Harm Than Good
The above are my seven reasons to argue for the removal of Macro Boosters. I think the question of Mechanical Difficulty should not be bundled with the removal of Macro Boosters. The community is too focused on the Mechanical Difficulty aspect of Macro Boosters. In my personal opinion, the harms that Macro Boosters do to the game far outweighs whatever benefits they provide in mechanics, and they should be removed at once. Thank you for reading.
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
DeepBurrow
Profile Joined August 2015
49 Posts
August 25 2015 22:07 GMT
#2
I agree with you 100%

I also made a point that if we lower the macro parts of the game we could introduce new ways for micro.
Like high ground benefits that we had in WoL beta, etc.
Steelghost
Profile Joined July 2015
24 Posts
August 25 2015 22:18 GMT
#3
Chess gms dont usually see the next 20 moves, otherwise great post, i really liked it.
Little-Chimp
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada948 Posts
August 25 2015 22:20 GMT
#4
Well written and entertaining/informative post + Show Spoiler +
can we still remove autoinject
WickedBit
Profile Joined August 2010
United States343 Posts
August 25 2015 22:29 GMT
#5
Right On!!
Right now most people against the macro changes are failing to see the forest beyond the trees. They are more concerned about how their race is made weaker or stronger rather than see the harmful effects of these. At this point game design is more important than balance!
Also injects in any form needs to go!!
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
August 25 2015 22:57 GMT
#6
A reporter once asked: How many moves do you see ahead? (a despised question among chess masters)
The GM answered: one

... the best one. (ohhh... sick burn)
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
solidbebe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4921 Posts
August 25 2015 22:59 GMT
#7
A great voice of reason amongst many very upset people . I agree with you completely, just like I agreed with theDwf's post a while back. The macro boosting mechanics are stupid. The time compression they cause only limits the ability of a player to show his abilities.
That's the 2nd time in a week I've seen someone sig a quote from this GD and I have never witnessed a sig quote happen in my TL history ever before. -Najda
leoky
Profile Joined January 2014
United States1 Post
August 25 2015 23:02 GMT
#8
Well written.

The combination of all of those sins is the reason why the most optimal way to play HOTS is to go full econ into full 3 base 66+ worker saturation while harassing lightly and build as few units as possible and tech as fast as possible and just go straight into late / end game deathball composition. NR15, one big ball vs big ball fight, GG.

The only time where that is not the case is when terran goes bio, then the terran is on the time clock and if they do not do enough damage to the zerg or protoss, once late game composition is achieved by protoss or zerg, bio terran just dies.

As mech became viable in HOTS after swarmhost nerf, terrans started doing the same NR15 into mech / death ball in TvZ.

I really hope these macro boosters are removed permanently including autoinject and larva mechanic rebalanced without it.
timchen1017
Profile Joined May 2014
37 Posts
August 25 2015 23:09 GMT
#9
Horrible post, everything is relative, not even a single point withstands scrutiny. And your deathball definition is wrong.

What you are saying is about balance, which can be tuned with or without the macro boosters. The problem of whether to have these boosters is always, whether the additional effort to use them creates strategy diversity and distinguishes players in a visible way. In other words, in a simplistic 2-class classification, if the boosters are (i) mandatory apm sinks that good players are forced to do but otherwise requires very little thought, then they should be removed; if they are (ii) interesting decisions that shape up builds or sharpen the timings or making comebacks possible, then they should stay.

I would say currently in HoTS they are too much (i), even though sometimes they do bring (ii).
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
August 25 2015 23:57 GMT
#10
On August 26 2015 08:09 timchen1017 wrote:
Horrible post, everything is relative, not even a single point withstands scrutiny. And your deathball definition is wrong.

What you are saying is about balance, which can be tuned with or without the macro boosters. The problem of whether to have these boosters is always, whether the additional effort to use them creates strategy diversity and distinguishes players in a visible way. In other words, in a simplistic 2-class classification, if the boosters are (i) mandatory apm sinks that good players are forced to do but otherwise requires very little thought, then they should be removed; if they are (ii) interesting decisions that shape up builds or sharpen the timings or making comebacks possible, then they should stay.

I would say currently in HoTS they are too much (i), even though sometimes they do bring (ii).


The only 'macro' mechanic which fits your definition is chronoboost.

Mule is not a decision. Remove mule and suddenly terrans are not even making orbital commands anymore, or delaying them until they might need a scan. OC in HOTS is not a choice or an 'interesting decision'. It's what you have to do, so that you can drop mules.

Inject is not a decision. It's what you have to do to have more army. End of story.

Only chronoboost has decisions, but even then not much of one. In the early game protoss can only afford 1 tech path. In fact, you can pretty much guess how their chrono is going to be spent.

late game protoss has plenty of chrono and it's spent on anything which takes time. upgrades, colossus, storm, whatever. it's only spent on gateways when defending a big push or making a big push.

Can we please stop pretending mules or chrono or even injects are much of an APM sink? once every 30 seconds you goto your nat mineral line and spam down as many mules as you have energy for. Bam Bam Bam. Done. With even a little bit of practise this isn't a thing. Same with chrono. For injects people have hot key setups so it's basically just spam that and you're done.

It's NOT an APM sink. It's a multi-tasking sink. You need to keep track of when you last injected or chrono'd or mule dropped while doing something else (harassing, defending, whatever) and refresh it all. The extra actions required to manage this is actually pretty small. Any bronze level muppet could sit on 1 base without being pressured and hit perfect injects or mules or chrono, I don't care how 'slow' they play.
AdrianHealeyy
Profile Joined June 2015
114 Posts
August 25 2015 23:58 GMT
#11
This is a fairly good analysis, pointign towards the trade offs involved.
AkashSky
Profile Joined May 2014
United States257 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 01:11:16
August 26 2015 01:08 GMT
#12
I don't quite understand sin number 6. If I assume that hots is currently balanced, and that your point that macro mechanics increase economy which increase production of tier 1 units, shouldn't the high tier 3 units need to be excessively efficient verse the tier 1 units in order to keep balance?

Removing the current macro mechanics should be an inherent nerf to tier 1 units, which would then make the currently powerful tier 3 units even better vs the tier 1 units, leading to deathball play.

Are you implying that tier 3 units can be nerfed, (in a manner similar to the collosus) as a direct result of the tier 1 units being nerfed due to the economy not exploding because of lack of macro mechanics?

**on a side note, your post was amazing, and if I think logically about what is better for the game, I very well would agree with you. But my emotions, and feelings toward macro mechanics simply will not let me make a rational choice. I simply love cronoboost too much for its versatility, I love the miracles that mules bring about, and I love the larva injects which actually make zerg swarmy. These emotions compel me to fight against the removal of macro mechanics for no rational reason. That, and it seems that I have grown old and hate change**.
starimk
Profile Joined December 2011
106 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 03:40:48
August 26 2015 03:38 GMT
#13
On August 26 2015 10:08 AkashSky wrote:
I don't quite understand sin number 6. If I assume that hots is currently balanced, and that your point that macro mechanics increase economy which increase production of tier 1 units, shouldn't the high tier 3 units need to be excessively efficient verse the tier 1 units in order to keep balance?

Removing the current macro mechanics should be an inherent nerf to tier 1 units, which would then make the currently powerful tier 3 units even better vs the tier 1 units, leading to deathball play.

Are you implying that tier 3 units can be nerfed, (in a manner similar to the collosus) as a direct result of the tier 1 units being nerfed due to the economy not exploding because of lack of macro mechanics?

**on a side note, your post was amazing, and if I think logically about what is better for the game, I very well would agree with you. But my emotions, and feelings toward macro mechanics simply will not let me make a rational choice. I simply love cronoboost too much for its versatility, I love the miracles that mules bring about, and I love the larva injects which actually make zerg swarmy. These emotions compel me to fight against the removal of macro mechanics for no rational reason. That, and it seems that I have grown old and hate change**.


Tier 3 units aren't really that efficient in HotS though. Carriers, BCs, and Brood lords don't see that much gameplay outside of super late-game scenarios because Tier 1 units can mass up quickly enough to overwhelm small numbers (thanks to macro boosters). HotS isn't really balanced around using Tier 1 and 3 units equally, it's more balanced around Tier 1 units and the AoE units (Banelings, WMs, Colossi, HT, etc.). It's just not possible to use higher-tier units without amassing a critical number first and keeping them all together, i.e. deathball.

I'm no expert, but I think the argument is that without macro boosters, Tier 1 super-armies get nerfed, which will allow smaller numbers of upper tier units to be deployed more effectively.

I'm really on board with the rest of the post too.
gh0st
Profile Joined January 2010
United States98 Posts
August 26 2015 03:39 GMT
#14
Yes, that's exactly his point. When mass marines (tier 1) are a viable strategy, higher tier units like the colossus have to be very cost-efficient to be worthwhile. When the macro mechanics allow Terrans to mass up marines very quickly, Protoss must race to its tier 3 damage dealers very quickly, leading to deathball play.

Removing the mechanics takes the air out of the balloon and makes it nigh impossible to exploit mineral intensive compositions like MMM. It also lays bare all the balance decisions blizzard had to make to counter those easily massed tier one units.

Naturally, if blizzard keeps the change, and I hope they will, then they can tone down the damage output from the tier 3 units if they want.
Temeter
Profile Joined April 2014
37 Posts
August 26 2015 03:40 GMT
#15
Now in LOTV a single semi-succesfull harassment or early game timing attempt might just instantly end the game.
Not seeing how that's improving game quality, hightens the skill-gap, increases comeback potential, adds strategic diversity, creates more action, or more forgiving.

There are interesting sides to the macro change, but they are nowhere near a magic bullet. They cause more issues for now than they solve.

In fact, the games are going to be more brutal, decided by single actions, and there won't be much possibility to recover. That's even what David Kim said about the changes. Frankly, to me that stuff just sounds boring and frustrating.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16678 Posts
August 26 2015 03:42 GMT
#16
thanks for taking the time to put this together.
interesting read.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
gh0st
Profile Joined January 2010
United States98 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 03:45:37
August 26 2015 03:45 GMT
#17
blizzard balanced the game with the intent that Protoss would turtle while building that scary aoe deathball. Hence, MMM recks gateway units.

Interestingly, the colossus nerf discourages deathball play by making higher tech less attractive. And the mule removal takes away the impetus for rushing to aoe to some extent (because churning out MMM is a lot harder now). So they're attacking the problem from both directions. The root cause and the symptoms so to speak. It's smart.
CometNine
Profile Joined March 2012
New Zealand87 Posts
August 26 2015 04:53 GMT
#18
On August 26 2015 12:45 gh0st wrote:
blizzard balanced the game with the intent that Protoss would turtle while building that scary aoe deathball. Hence, MMM recks gateway units.

Interestingly, the colossus nerf discourages deathball play by making higher tech less attractive. And the mule removal takes away the impetus for rushing to aoe to some extent (because churning out MMM is a lot harder now). So they're attacking the problem from both directions. The root cause and the symptoms so to speak. It's smart.


What you've mentioned here pretty much describes the changes I've made to my play style for protoss.

In WoL and HotS... defend 3 bases, shaping up an army with a mix of colossi and HTs + gateway ball and hit that 200/200 clash, then warp in gateway units (with 10+ gates) with your forward pylon and kill the terran.
In LotV, I find myself with a more Middle-tier unit composition. with a lot more immortals and disruptors compared to a mostly gateway colossus army. Had a fun PvT game last night where I had 4 robo facilities producing immortals/distruptors in the mid game. Had to mix in tempests though once I scouted a mix of Liberator/Viking. My opponent did try to make Bio/Sky Terran work though but denying the 4th constantly starved him eventually.

Coming back to this though, the lack of Chrono and Muling in the match feel like good changes in terms of player vs player interactions. Playing as protoss I feel like I don't have to turtle until I have enough to just Spirit Bomb the opponent in one hit.
"Building Armour Upgrade is the new meta" - Gretorp (2012)
HellHound
Profile Joined September 2014
Bulgaria5962 Posts
August 26 2015 05:10 GMT
#19
On August 26 2015 07:57 mishimaBeef wrote:
A reporter once asked: How many moves do you see ahead? (a despised question among chess masters)
The GM answered: one

... the best one. (ohhh... sick burn)

Capablanca?
Classic GosoO |sOs| Everyone has to give in, let Life win | Zest Is The Best | Roach Cultist | I recognize the might and wisdom of my Otherworldly overlord | Air vs Air 200/200 SC2 is best SC2 | PRIME has been robbed | Fuck prime go ST | ROACH ROACH ROACH
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
August 26 2015 05:28 GMT
#20
On August 26 2015 13:53 CometNine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2015 12:45 gh0st wrote:
blizzard balanced the game with the intent that Protoss would turtle while building that scary aoe deathball. Hence, MMM recks gateway units.

Interestingly, the colossus nerf discourages deathball play by making higher tech less attractive. And the mule removal takes away the impetus for rushing to aoe to some extent (because churning out MMM is a lot harder now). So they're attacking the problem from both directions. The root cause and the symptoms so to speak. It's smart.


What you've mentioned here pretty much describes the changes I've made to my play style for protoss.

In WoL and HotS... defend 3 bases, shaping up an army with a mix of colossi and HTs + gateway ball and hit that 200/200 clash, then warp in gateway units (with 10+ gates) with your forward pylon and kill the terran.
In LotV, I find myself with a more Middle-tier unit composition. with a lot more immortals and disruptors compared to a mostly gateway colossus army. Had a fun PvT game last night where I had 4 robo facilities producing immortals/distruptors in the mid game. Had to mix in tempests though once I scouted a mix of Liberator/Viking. My opponent did try to make Bio/Sky Terran work though but denying the 4th constantly starved him eventually.

Coming back to this though, the lack of Chrono and Muling in the match feel like good changes in terms of player vs player interactions. Playing as protoss I feel like I don't have to turtle until I have enough to just Spirit Bomb the opponent in one hit.


Chargelots are AMAZING now. I went for chargelot archon with a sprinkling of adepts and stalkers vs a terran to great effect. Mines and a PF on the 3rd pretty much stopped my advance from just killing him outright though.

It was great feeling like gateway units have some real teeth to them now and that terran might actually want to get something other than pure MMM.
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