|
On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:
I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem?
I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance.
Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair
Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft.
Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt.
Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great.
Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems.
If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been.
Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.
|
On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem? I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance. Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226 Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft. Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt. Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great. Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems. If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been. Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus.
Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)
Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.
For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.
|
I find it really weird that you link your own tweets...
|
who the hell is "RevTiberius" that i have to see the tweet of, and why should i care
|
On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem? I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance. Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226 Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft. Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt. Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great. Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems. If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been. Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus. Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth) Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it. For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.
So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months.
Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed.
Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!"
And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP.
|
these are all really good points but LotV has pretty much shown the direction Blizzards wants to take - I don't think we'll see any drastic changes. maybe you should look into making a mod to try your thoughts
|
On November 16 2015 01:49 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem? I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance. Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226 Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft. Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt. Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great. Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems. If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been. Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus. Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth) Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it. For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community. So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months. Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed. Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!" And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP.
Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time?
People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong. They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy. They then complained that early game Zerg was too weak. So in one patch Blizz answered all 3 player requests by shortening Fungal to 4 seconds and increasing queen range +1 and increasing Overlord sight range +1. The end result was Broodfestors. Yet--Terran still kept winning. Players suddenly were asking Blizz to nerf the race who was already losing in top level competition.
The only valid conclusion to that is that players have no idea how to balance games.
|
On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth)
Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it.
For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community.
I don't remember how it went. But the thing is, Blizzard should know better then listening to random people on the forums. They should know which ideas are good, and which are bad.
Easier to defend naturals and thirds is more of a map makers job. Changes to ramps/chokes are enough to make expansions easier to defend.
The biggest issue is that Blizzard doesn't seem to think through changes that it makes. They seem to live in some utopian bubble where only issues in pro games are addressed, and sometimes someone's random post on their forums is taken way too serious.
And if they listen to community, they decide to use the most half assed solutions.
|
The infestor change was good, it opened up a whole new strategy to play Zerg.
Everyone went ling baneling muta in zvt and roach hydra corruptor in zvp before the change.
The Icefisher build and double up lings were more or less discovered around that time. (Helped by queen buff which I think came a bit later)
Its a shame we don't even see infestors in mid game much anymore. In hots it's pretty much ling baneling muta vs wm bio all 24/7 which has little strategy variation other than opening.
|
On November 16 2015 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2015 01:49 Hider wrote:On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem? I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance. Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226 Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft. Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt. Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great. Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems. If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been. Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus. Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth) Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it. For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community. So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months. Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed. Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!" And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP. Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time? People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong. They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy. They then complained that early game Zerg was too weak. So in one patch Blizz answered all 3 player requests by shortening Fungal to 4 seconds and increasing queen range +1 and increasing Overlord sight range +1. The end result was Broodfestors. Yet--Terran still kept winning. Players suddenly were asking Blizz to nerf the race who was already losing in top level competition. The only valid conclusion to that is that players have no idea how to balance games.
stop spreading false facts! the fungal change came with patch 1.3 in march 2011. by then broodlord infestor wasnt a problem yet. The queen change was patch 1.4.3 in february 2012! so a year later and not in the same patch. if you want to make a point in a discussion use accurate information instead of pulling information out of your ass.
|
On November 16 2015 09:46 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2015 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 16 2015 01:49 Hider wrote:On November 16 2015 01:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 15 2015 23:10 Nazara wrote:On November 15 2015 13:18 RevTiberius wrote:I'm really annoyed by all this whining about balance. The game just came out, Blizzard is more responsive than ever, and the game is constantly being tweaked. So where is the problem? I have always said this: UNLESS you are a top-level Korean pro-gamer, you have so many weaknesses in your own game (concerning both micro and macro) which working on would have a much greater impact on your results than any perceived or actual imbalance. Also: imbalance doesn't necessarily mean unfair https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/665744508668084226 Would you argue that broodlord investor was good and pros just needed to be more creative while playing against it? Or that swarm host was a good design? You don't need to be as good as ronaldo to know when and if he messes up during a match. Same here, you don't need to be a pro to see that there are problems with how blizzard patches and designs starcraft. Blizzard is not being more responsive. Community feedback updates where meaningless - they didn't ask for opinion, as even dumbest fixes they come up with, made it through to a next day patch, even if community provided loads of counter feedback. It's just a PR stunt. Also if you didn't notice, this is not a balance whine. It's an analysis of some of the balance and design changes, with my personal opinion on why a lot of them are not that great. Judging by the polls most people agree that there are issues that could have been taken care of if the starcraft team spent more time thinking about the impact of their changes instead of just relying on the pros and developing meta to highlight problems. If the team was more competent, we could have a real e-sports dominator and a truly magnificent game. Right now starcraft is just the shadow of what it could have been. Even single player story is full of retcons and plot holes that could have been avoided if the story was more about race struggles, and not about space magic and zerg Jesus. Broodlord Infestor came about when the Dev team made the changes to the Infestor that the community asked for. (Shorter root cooldown and higher damage on Fungal Growth) Swarm Host causing stalemates came about when people kept asking for easier to grab thirds and easier to defend naturals. It was not Blizz who designed that paradigm, it was the community who asked for it. For the most part, most of the biggest issues SC2 has had came from Blizz actually listening to the community. So much wrong this. First of, infestor buff... noone asked for that specficially. Your pulling stuff out of your ass. But it came as a response to VR being imbalanced and broken vs zerg. Something alot of people had complained about for months. Secondly, people asked for Infestor nerfs for a long time. I know I demanded one right after the Snipe nerf as I knew what would happen if Zerg got good enough to come to late game. Still took 1½ year before the Infestor finally got nerfed. And obviously during summer 2012 everyone and their mother (so not just me), knew it had to be nerfed. Yet David Kim was like... "meh MVP just won against random foreign zergs using Seeker Missile so let's not nerf it!" And the first year of HOTS balance was also a gigantic mess filled with tons of terrible decisions. This guy really isn't particularly competent. Not that I give tons of credit to community either, but you should definitely listen to their feedback and adress the stuff that is lame ASAP. Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time? People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong. They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy. They then complained that early game Zerg was too weak. So in one patch Blizz answered all 3 player requests by shortening Fungal to 4 seconds and increasing queen range +1 and increasing Overlord sight range +1. The end result was Broodfestors. Yet--Terran still kept winning. Players suddenly were asking Blizz to nerf the race who was already losing in top level competition. The only valid conclusion to that is that players have no idea how to balance games. stop spreading false facts! the fungal change came with patch 1.3 in march 2011. by then broodlord infestor wasnt a problem yet. The queen change was patch 1.4.3 in february 2012! so a year later and not in the same patch. if you want to make a point in a discussion use accurate information instead of pulling information out of your ass.
I apologize. It turns out Blizz was listening to player requests for far longer than I remember. No wonder the game balance got so wrecked. Had Blizz stopped listening to players sooner there wouldn't have been as much of a problem.
|
People complained that the 8 second root of Fungal was too strong.
OMG. Noone did that. Zerg was considered underpowered prior to Fungal Buff. Seriously stop spreading up this misinformation.
Are you saying David Kim should have imposed Zerg nerfs despite Zerg losing in top level competitions at the time?
No the game was fundamentally flawed and needed a reoverhaul. WOL Fungal Growth with no counterplay definitely wasn't the correct solution.
They then then said that the DPS of Fungal was laughable as its only relevance was draining medivac energy.
No it was clearly a huge buff from the get-go. before that, toss latae game was unstopable vs Zerg.
Zergs also started massing Infestors a couple of months after and in mid/late 2011, it also started to seem zerg-favored in ZvT at pro level. But then terrans discovered Snipe and the matchup was broken in a different way.
The correct response would be to nerf snipe and redesign Fungal Growth at the same time while buffing Zerg early game (e.g. queen range buff, perhaps to 4 instead of 5 - regardless, the real issue was Fungal Growth and not the range of queen. Queen range buff just made it easier for Zerg to get to the unstopable late game comp).
At the time, all of that was obvious to me, and I believe that if you could go through my post history for several years ago, you would find comments indicating that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
