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On October 17 2015 06:06 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
So what unit comp is the cyclone supposed to be a part of? It is easily countered by Adept+Phoenix if opened with in TvP. At 120 health it has no place standing up to ling/roach/ravager balls. In TvT it is hard countered by Bio and/or tanks. And with its new lower health pool, you can't even mix it into other comps without risking it dying.
Is it supposed to be a hero unit? Sent out 1 by 1 and runs away from every fight?
Its single target damage is actually disgustingly strong. Just that it is better in early-mid game than in lategame. Terran is already very strong in midgame so I feel this update was out of place
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On October 17 2015 06:06 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
So what unit comp is the cyclone supposed to be a part of? It is easily countered by Adept+Phoenix if opened with in TvP. At 120 health it has no place standing up to ling/roach/ravager balls. In TvT it is hard countered by Bio and/or tanks. And with its new lower health pool, you can't even mix it into other comps without risking it dying.
Is it supposed to be a hero unit? Sent out 1 by 1 and runs away from every fight?
How are roaches and ravagers going to catch a Cyclone? It outranges and outpaces them heavily off-creep.
As for what army compositions they'll be used in? Probably a regular mech army of Tank/Hellbat/Mines/Liberators. Siege up your tanks or liberators, lock-on to buildings or units with your Cyclones and run back to the protection of your main army while killing their shit. So either they lose stuff for free, or you force them into a bad engagement.
Two Cyclones will kill a hatchery now, and can do it at siege range once you've locked-on.
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120 seconds are 120 real seconds now right? Isn't the Carrier build time longer than ever now?
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On October 17 2015 06:19 Musicus wrote:
120 seconds are 120 real seconds now right? Isn't the Carrier build time longer than ever now?
No, its in HotS seconds.
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On October 17 2015 06:12 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 06:06 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
So what unit comp is the cyclone supposed to be a part of? It is easily countered by Adept+Phoenix if opened with in TvP. At 120 health it has no place standing up to ling/roach/ravager balls. In TvT it is hard countered by Bio and/or tanks. And with its new lower health pool, you can't even mix it into other comps without risking it dying.
Is it supposed to be a hero unit? Sent out 1 by 1 and runs away from every fight? How are roaches and ravagers going to catch a Cyclone? It outranges and outpaces them heavily off-creep. As for what army compositions they'll be used in? Probably a regular mech army of Tank/Hellbat/Mines/Liberators. Siege up your tanks or liberators, lock-on to buildings or units with your Cyclones and run back to the protection of your main army while killing their shit. So either they lose stuff for free, or you force them into a bad engagement. Two Cyclones will kill a hatchery now, and can do it at siege range once you've locked-on.
It may have absurd single target DPS, but when you play mech, I feel its far better to get more dependable unit like Thor or Siege tank. Cyclone at 120hp is quite fragile and siege tank is your main man when you are playing mech most of time aynway. It would be better to have hellbat as a meatshield with thor doing the damage on ground. That 400hp is better investment while packing a decent punch and blocking big area off.
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On October 17 2015 06:24 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 06:19 Musicus wrote:
120 seconds are 120 real seconds now right? Isn't the Carrier build time longer than ever now? No, its in HotS seconds.
Ah okay, then it makes more sense.
Edit: If this was live 2 hours ago, it also explains why my Hydra push after scouting double stargate walked for the first time today. He only had 2 carriers out when I arrived  .
On that note, I actually don't like the change, since I don't think you should limit a unit that's just too powerful by making it nearly impossible to get out. I'd rather just have it's power level toned down a bit instead.
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On October 17 2015 06:26 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 06:12 Athenau wrote:On October 17 2015 06:06 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
So what unit comp is the cyclone supposed to be a part of? It is easily countered by Adept+Phoenix if opened with in TvP. At 120 health it has no place standing up to ling/roach/ravager balls. In TvT it is hard countered by Bio and/or tanks. And with its new lower health pool, you can't even mix it into other comps without risking it dying.
Is it supposed to be a hero unit? Sent out 1 by 1 and runs away from every fight? How are roaches and ravagers going to catch a Cyclone? It outranges and outpaces them heavily off-creep. As for what army compositions they'll be used in? Probably a regular mech army of Tank/Hellbat/Mines/Liberators. Siege up your tanks or liberators, lock-on to buildings or units with your Cyclones and run back to the protection of your main army while killing their shit. So either they lose stuff for free, or you force them into a bad engagement. Two Cyclones will kill a hatchery now, and can do it at siege range once you've locked-on. It may have absurd single target DPS, but when you play mech, I feel its far better to get more dependable unit like Thor or Siege tank. Cyclone at 120hp is quite fragile and siege tank is your main man when you are playing mech most of time aynway. It would be better to have hellbat as a meatshield with thor doing the damage on ground. That 400hp is better investment while packing a decent punch and blocking big area off.
You don't need that many. Mix 4 or 5 Cyclones into a tank or liberator-based army and now you get to pick off buildings or expensive units at will while still holding ground. Actually, no need to even bother with tanks now, just use liberators with hellbats and mines for splash while cyclones target buildings.
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Terran late game is still garbage. The cyclone change does nothimg to address that it's still not only bad design, but not useful enough to make mech viable especially vs toss. If blizzard just went with the goliath, a reliable ground to air mech fighter, everything would be better. Instead they are trying to balance the cyclone around its abysmal design, and into a role further from what Terran mech needs. The tank is also so bad right now. Every race got new counters to the tank. The only hope for Terran is to win the midgame convincingly with bio. It still remains to be seen if bio ghost can counter ultralisks. I've had some success but I could also see that being a problem down the line.
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
I am certain Blizzard means 64 seconds to 85.3 seconds (real/LotV time)
Yeah, played some games earlier and this change was in already.
They now take 2x as long as tempest and 4x as long as reactored libs
Terran late game is still garbage
Ghosts, liberator. Terran late game is pretty damn nice at the moment and it's easier to get there than ever before in beta
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On October 17 2015 07:31 Cyro wrote:Yeah, played some games earlier and this change was in already. They now take 2x as long as tempest and 4x as long as reactored libs Ghosts, liberator. Terran late game is pretty damn nice at the moment and it's easier to get there than ever before in beta
Liberators and Ghosts do not counter Carriers or Broodlord Viper. The best you can hope for is burrowing some mines under them. Outside of that there is no consistent way to beat those armies as Terran. BCs and Thors could be buffed and I think mech and Terran in general would have a real shot in the late game.
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guys, this is not a mistake.
protoss got cyclone and terran got adept.
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On October 17 2015 07:44 nubHunter wrote:
guys, this is not a mistake.
protoss got cyclone and terran got adept.
So Protoss now has both air and ground Phoenixes, while Terran has 2 types of Reapers?
Makes sense I guess.
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Just remove Terran already.
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Man they just don't give a shit anymore do they?
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
On October 17 2015 07:39 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 07:31 Cyro wrote:I am certain Blizzard means 64 seconds to 85.3 seconds (real/LotV time) Yeah, played some games earlier and this change was in already. They now take 2x as long as tempest and 4x as long as reactored libs Terran late game is still garbage Ghosts, liberator. Terran late game is pretty damn nice at the moment and it's easier to get there than ever before in beta Liberators and Ghosts do not counter Carriers or Broodlord Viper. The best you can hope for is burrowing some mines under them. Outside of that there is no consistent way to beat those armies as Terran. BCs and Thors could be buffed and I think mech and Terran in general would have a real shot in the late game.
Yes they do. When's the last time you had 10-30 liberators (20-60 supply of them) against a carrier based army? It's also way harder for toss to get there now. Bio with ghosts and a varying amount of liberators is go-to response against most stuff that toss can do.
5 liberators don't do much but against 12 carriers (72 supply) you can literally build 36 liberators or 8-16 liberators plus a bio army. It's a matter of scale that a lot of people just don't seem to "get" yet.
I'm not saying toss army isn't good in a 200/200 game where both sides have 10k/10k banked, i've just never seen that situation in LOTV. Hitting 200/200 and trading armies while being broke is something that comes up over things like base control or trying to keep a potentially stronger army in check
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So no more big changes. LOTV leaves me behind even more worried. Instead of making the game more skillbased it seems to become even more about versality. On every level I watched and played so far, you have even more possible allins coming your way, especially from the already hated toss. While the early adept rush got figured out pretty fast, and i LOVE the change on warpin at pylons, so toss has to babysit his army more from base/main to the opponent, I don't like the warpin time on the warp prism. There are a lot of things I haven't figured out yet, like how to deal with air toss (besides killing him before he gets there), so I will not call anything imba. Have to wait what the meta says and how pros will deal with it. However (non Protoss related):
One of the main problems/reasons why PPL stopped watching is that the game builds up very long and one sec not looking or bad micro its all over for some. The game should be over small mistakes or small better trades not this one move that wins or loses you the game.
They even tried to reduce damage to make fights last longer. I loved the Idea! I also applauded to blizzard that they tried something big like completely changing the economy... but since all the big changes are made and they won't rework other basic mechanics... I am losing hope for the game already. Will of course wait how the meta develops, but if the game really becomes even more versatile, I will stop caring for SC2. It then has nothing to do with progaming/esport since the game should be about tools that give the better player more chance to show their skills and get small advantages, not lesser players chances to do BS moves, win with some crazy strat or cheese or abusing a special ability/unit.
BTW: i still think Widow Mine should be removed or reworked and also I am waiting for terrans get a lategame unit. All new units and abilitiese help terran in early/mid game. Great that will lead to more allins and if they fail or Terrans try to macro the game out, they face the same old problems since 2010.
Zerg seems to be quite allright, besides I don't know yet what to do vs Skytoss.
Toss seems to be more skillbased on the one side(if you play a straight macro game without trying to bullshit), but also has more abilities that can be abused by players with less skill. Cheesed my way up to masters, just to try it out. In a macro game my toss is ridiculously bad (while my Terran and Zerg is ~ Diamond, Toss is more Gold since it bores me to play it and watch it). There shouldn't be such a huge gap
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Looks like Cyclones are Terran's new best bet for building snipe drops:
- 2 Cyclones have more way more dps than 4 stimmed Marauders.
- 2 Cyclones are dropped faster than 4 Marauders.
- Cyclones can move far away to a safer spot once they locked on a target.
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can someone fix the patch note?
The correct version is already on the battlenet page
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Feeling good about no preorder yet. I do feel bad for making a few friends preorder for beta though - it was looking more promising at the time. :|
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Very disappointing. Nothing relevant is happening, do they think the game is suited for competition right now ? Yeah, I'm being negative and all the stuff, but where are the reasons to be positive ? Everything has been going downhill for quite a few patches now. Their failure on the macro mechanics removal (which was a good idea, but needed to be tested sooner) seems to have melted their brains into marshmallow.
I hope they can push out at least some good changes until release. I've given up on the cyclone, they're adamant on the lock-on thing and the unit being equally good vs air and ground -while everyone knows it should be primarily anti-air, a goliath with an ugly skin- but I hope they (at the very least) revert Chronoboost back to the HotS version, remove invincible Nydus, do something about liberators and give P a chance vs Z ground now that carriers aren't as easy to mass.
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EPT
