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On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g.
You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal.
Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject).
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On October 03 2015 11:42 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g. You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal. Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject).
If you play greedily you can be punished for it. Don't play greedy and you'll be fine.
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On October 03 2015 11:46 crazedrat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 11:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g. You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal. Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject). If you play greedily you can be punished for it. Don't play greedy and you'll be fine.
Actually you are completely wrong. You can still open pool first if you are good enough, and all timings for Protoss, Terran and Zerg have changed.
Please stop talking as if you are omniscient, because you are 100% wrong here.
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On October 03 2015 11:46 crazedrat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 11:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g. You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal. Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject). If you play greedily you can be punished for it. Don't play greedy and you'll be fine.
What a conpletely irrelevant comment...
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On October 03 2015 12:47 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 11:46 crazedrat wrote:On October 03 2015 11:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g. You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal. Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject). If you play greedily you can be punished for it. Don't play greedy and you'll be fine. Actually you are completely wrong. You can still open pool first if you are good enough, and all timings for Protoss, Terran and Zerg have changed. Please stop talking as if you are omniscient, because you are 100% wrong here.
Pool now depends on hoping that it works rather than executing it with skill and precision. Zergs and Terran economies are hit much harder than Protoss with this patch. I won't join your little clan and now you pin your favorite memes onto me. Buzz off.
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On October 03 2015 13:30 crazedrat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 12:47 GGzerG wrote:On October 03 2015 11:46 crazedrat wrote:On October 03 2015 11:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g. You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal. Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject). If you play greedily you can be punished for it. Don't play greedy and you'll be fine. Actually you are completely wrong. You can still open pool first if you are good enough, and all timings for Protoss, Terran and Zerg have changed. Please stop talking as if you are omniscient, because you are 100% wrong here. Pool now depends on hoping that it works rather than executing it with skill and precision. Zergs and Terran economies are hit much harder than Protoss with this patch. I won't join your little clan and now you pin your favorite memes onto me. Fuck off.
Its not exactly a massive difference. Yes, it's a nerf, but to insinuate pool first is suddenly unviable is ridiculous. It originally put you at a slight disadvantage. Now it puts you at a slightly more disadvantage. To state it kills it on day1 of the patch is the type of things that shit up forums.
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[B] [*]Adept - Shield reduced from 90/90 to 60/90
source
I think it should be health nerf instead of shield nerf.
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On October 03 2015 13:46 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 13:30 crazedrat wrote:On October 03 2015 12:47 GGzerG wrote:On October 03 2015 11:46 crazedrat wrote:On October 03 2015 11:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g. You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal. Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject). If you play greedily you can be punished for it. Don't play greedy and you'll be fine. Actually you are completely wrong. You can still open pool first if you are good enough, and all timings for Protoss, Terran and Zerg have changed. Please stop talking as if you are omniscient, because you are 100% wrong here. Pool now depends on hoping that it works rather than executing it with skill and precision. Zergs and Terran economies are hit much harder than Protoss with this patch. I won't join your little clan and now you pin your favorite memes onto me. Fuck off. Its not exactly a massive difference. Yes, it's a nerf, but to insinuate pool first is suddenly unviable is ridiculous. It originally put you at a slight disadvantage. Now it puts you at a slightly more disadvantage. To state it kills it on day1 of the patch is the type of things that shit up forums.
A reduction from 4 to 3 larvae is a big hit to pool 1st openings.
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On October 03 2015 13:56 crazedrat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 13:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 13:30 crazedrat wrote:On October 03 2015 12:47 GGzerG wrote:On October 03 2015 11:46 crazedrat wrote:On October 03 2015 11:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 11:13 crazedrat wrote:Just look at the math. On October 03 2015 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 09:20 Lumi wrote:
does anybody know where this larva/zerg nerf came from..? i've never once in the games history heard anyone even conceive of tweaking the number of larva from injects or there being too much xD i'm wtf
looks like they are trying to slow down the econ potential for all races but in the case of protoss and zerg the nerf hits the whole race..? where as for T it's just the mule/econ itself.. This is the third time it's been suggested in the beta. And many have suggested it because the current iteration gives increased volatility. I think it's an amazing change to reduce that. Four is way too much at once. And now I can't go early pool. I have a boring race which I am not that interested in playing. I'm not being dramatic either. What is so bad about volatility? The only place you feel it is in ZvZ or lower leagues. I can't play the way I want to now. I have to go hatch 1st, it's the same streamlined game. Boring. B-o-r-i-n.g. You feel it all the way to the very top. You can scout the opponent has zero units, and after you're done scouting their 3 hatch can produce around 30 zerglings at once. Or another 15 drones. That's volatile and should be toned down. The lack of ability to cancel larvae compounds the issue that a Zerg's decision is also all made at once, unless they opt to pool larvae, which isn't optimal. Would be better if inject simply popped out larvae one by one throughout the inject if you ask me (only requires one inject). If you play greedily you can be punished for it. Don't play greedy and you'll be fine. Actually you are completely wrong. You can still open pool first if you are good enough, and all timings for Protoss, Terran and Zerg have changed. Please stop talking as if you are omniscient, because you are 100% wrong here. Pool now depends on hoping that it works rather than executing it with skill and precision. Zergs and Terran economies are hit much harder than Protoss with this patch. I won't join your little clan and now you pin your favorite memes onto me. Fuck off. Its not exactly a massive difference. Yes, it's a nerf, but to insinuate pool first is suddenly unviable is ridiculous. It originally put you at a slight disadvantage. Now it puts you at a slightly more disadvantage. To state it kills it on day1 of the patch is the type of things that shit up forums. A reduction from 4 to 3 larvae is a big hit to pool 1st openings.
I didn't say it wasn't a nerf. Assuming you use 100% of the early queens for injects, which we already see many pros do NOT, you're down around 3 larvae max. This doesn't account for the fact there is already a brief moment you can't use all the larvae anyways.
To state this kills the opening is ridiculous. It nerfs it, but these radical comments on day1 with minimal testing simply ridiculous. This is coming from a low GM zerg in hots that opened 13 pool almost every single time vs. P as well as opening 15 pool almost every game vs T.
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Pool now relies more and luck than skill for an advantage. The opening has been very much changed by this patch.
Alot of what you say is superfluous, like this:
On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
I didn't say it wasn't a nerf. Assuming you use 100% of the early queens for injects, which we already see many pros do NOT,
The queen might be slightly underused regardless.
This:
On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is coming from a low GM zerg in hots that opened 13 pool almost every single time vs. P as well as opening 15 pool almost every game vs T.
I beat GMs frequently and I open pool.
This:
On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:you're down around 3 larvae max. This doesn't account for the fact there is already a brief moment you can't use all the larvae anyways.
You're down about 3 larvae, to state it plainly.
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On October 03 2015 14:14 crazedrat wrote:Pool now relies more and luck than skill for an advantage. The opening has been very much changed by this patch. Alot of what you say is superfluous, like this: Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
I didn't say it wasn't a nerf. Assuming you use 100% of the early queens for injects, which we already see many pros do NOT, The queen might be slightly underused regardless. This: Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is coming from a low GM zerg in hots that opened 13 pool almost every single time vs. P as well as opening 15 pool almost every game vs T.
Does not matter. This: Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:you're down around 3 larvae max. This doesn't account for the fact there is already a brief moment you can't use all the larvae anyways.
You're down about 3 larvae, to state it plainly.
Not sure how that's all you got. The impact is mild, the most you'd be down is 3 larvae, although since most pros use one of the first 3 injects for a tumor when going pool first, you're down 2 in most cases. Since you may not have been able to spend the larvae regardless, this further minimizes the impact.
Once again, without actually taking a deeper look, you're doing nothing more than cry end of a build order on day 1, which is quite stupid.
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The lower larva count is great because it nerfs early aggro in zvz. Suddenly you have more minerals to use on expanding, and since lings rely heavily on larva, the mass all-in state that its at right now will be nerfed.
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I believe for Terran vs Protoss Adept Allins might be even stronger. Why? 30 less shields dont mean a lot in the current state - the adepts didnt barely edge out the fights when allins with a warpprism happen. They dominated.
This plus the fact that while all macro mechanics are nerfed - the MULE especially in TvP is a lot morr crucial to the production capabilities compared to chronoboost leading us effecticely to a stronger adept all in in my opinion. Well I can only play and find out -.-
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On October 03 2015 14:31 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 14:14 crazedrat wrote:Pool now relies more and luck than skill for an advantage. The opening has been very much changed by this patch. Alot of what you say is superfluous, like this: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
I didn't say it wasn't a nerf. Assuming you use 100% of the early queens for injects, which we already see many pros do NOT, The queen might be slightly underused regardless. This: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is coming from a low GM zerg in hots that opened 13 pool almost every single time vs. P as well as opening 15 pool almost every game vs T.
Does not matter. This: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:you're down around 3 larvae max. This doesn't account for the fact there is already a brief moment you can't use all the larvae anyways.
You're down about 3 larvae, to state it plainly. Not sure how that's all you got. The impact is mild, the most you'd be down is 3 larvae, although since most pros use one of the first 3 injects for a tumor when going pool first, you're down 2 in most cases. Since you may not have been able to spend the larvae regardless, this further minimizes the impact. Once again, without actually taking a deeper look, you're doing nothing more than cry end of a build order on day 1, which is quite stupid.
It's a major change to pool, not mild. We just don't agree, I think it's a stylistic thing. You already open pool every game regardless (?). It's a hit to pool to a point I am not opening with it anymore. It was already shaky in many cases, making it weaker just means hatch 1st is better. You can use it for a lucky win or a series win, I can't see using it as a standard ladder build, maybe on one map in particular or another but not really.
You should also recognize that pool 1st in LOTV is a different build order. The timing of everything - the queen, the hatch, the lings... etc. the metagame, is different. Also it depends on how you use the pool. If you're going gas with it, that's a big impact. Bigger than just 3 larvae. You're going to be using multiple injects because you're building lings. So the speed opening, the fast baneling nest opening are both more strongly nerfed. I use those builds frequently now. You are speaking specifically about a few lings into hatch and droning which is not all pool builds, and you're speaking about HOTS builds and metagame which isn't the same.
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Balancing a few units at a time is probably for the best... They'll get to the other broken stuff in the next few patches.. Hold your horses people
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When did they stop do crazy patch like this seriously ?
Its way worse than before, now the adept kill units way faster and its like more harder than before to deal with it at Terran with less economy, the nerf of mule is way too big, just prevent the mule hammer at the lategame but dont change it, the latest patch was fine, when will you admit than mule didnt require a single change and its a core of economy Terrane,
Also what are you waiting to nerf 8 armor ultra, parasitic bomb, invincible nydus who are just crazy and ruin everythings ?
I hate the game the way he go like now, just stop all these non sense change and go for a Hots based game with 12 worker start it will be way better than this current state...
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On October 03 2015 14:36 crazedrat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 14:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 14:14 crazedrat wrote:Pool now relies more and luck than skill for an advantage. The opening has been very much changed by this patch. Alot of what you say is superfluous, like this: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
I didn't say it wasn't a nerf. Assuming you use 100% of the early queens for injects, which we already see many pros do NOT, The queen might be slightly underused regardless. This: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is coming from a low GM zerg in hots that opened 13 pool almost every single time vs. P as well as opening 15 pool almost every game vs T.
Does not matter. This: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:you're down around 3 larvae max. This doesn't account for the fact there is already a brief moment you can't use all the larvae anyways.
You're down about 3 larvae, to state it plainly. Not sure how that's all you got. The impact is mild, the most you'd be down is 3 larvae, although since most pros use one of the first 3 injects for a tumor when going pool first, you're down 2 in most cases. Since you may not have been able to spend the larvae regardless, this further minimizes the impact. Once again, without actually taking a deeper look, you're doing nothing more than cry end of a build order on day 1, which is quite stupid. It's a major change to pool, not mild. We just don't agree, I think it's a stylistic thing. You already open pool every game regardless (?). It's a hit to pool to a point I am not opening with it anymore. It was already shaky in alot of scenarios, making it weaker just means hatch 1st is the better opening overall. You can use it for a lucky win or a series win, but using it on ladder as a standard skill based build order I don't see why you'd choose to be more disadvantaged. Zerg is now already larvae pressed and you need the earlier hatch. You should also recognize that pool 1st in LOTV is a different build order. The timing of everything - the queen, the hatch, the lings... etc. the metagame, is different. Also it depends on how you use the pool. If you're going gas with it, that's a big impact. Bigger than just 3 larvae. You're going to be using multiple injects because you're building lings. So the speed opening, the fast baneling nest opening are both more strongly nerfed. I use those builds frequently now. You are speaking specifically about a few lings into hatch and droning which is not all pool builds, and you're speaking about HOTS builds and metagame which isn't the same.
The hots reference was only to display I am familiar with pool first. I've played LotV since the beta first started. Speed openings are already heavily luck dependent as is, and your argument was revolving around "skill," so I was assuming gasless. Sure baneling busts have been nerfed, but this hardly affects zerg in general non ZvZ.
Every change in the beta has created significant changes to how you can open as every race really.
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On October 03 2015 15:05 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 14:36 crazedrat wrote:On October 03 2015 14:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2015 14:14 crazedrat wrote:Pool now relies more and luck than skill for an advantage. The opening has been very much changed by this patch. Alot of what you say is superfluous, like this: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
I didn't say it wasn't a nerf. Assuming you use 100% of the early queens for injects, which we already see many pros do NOT, The queen might be slightly underused regardless. This: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is coming from a low GM zerg in hots that opened 13 pool almost every single time vs. P as well as opening 15 pool almost every game vs T.
Does not matter. This: On October 03 2015 14:05 FabledIntegral wrote:you're down around 3 larvae max. This doesn't account for the fact there is already a brief moment you can't use all the larvae anyways.
You're down about 3 larvae, to state it plainly. Not sure how that's all you got. The impact is mild, the most you'd be down is 3 larvae, although since most pros use one of the first 3 injects for a tumor when going pool first, you're down 2 in most cases. Since you may not have been able to spend the larvae regardless, this further minimizes the impact. Once again, without actually taking a deeper look, you're doing nothing more than cry end of a build order on day 1, which is quite stupid. It's a major change to pool, not mild. We just don't agree, I think it's a stylistic thing. You already open pool every game regardless (?). It's a hit to pool to a point I am not opening with it anymore. It was already shaky in alot of scenarios, making it weaker just means hatch 1st is the better opening overall. You can use it for a lucky win or a series win, but using it on ladder as a standard skill based build order I don't see why you'd choose to be more disadvantaged. Zerg is now already larvae pressed and you need the earlier hatch. You should also recognize that pool 1st in LOTV is a different build order. The timing of everything - the queen, the hatch, the lings... etc. the metagame, is different. Also it depends on how you use the pool. If you're going gas with it, that's a big impact. Bigger than just 3 larvae. You're going to be using multiple injects because you're building lings. So the speed opening, the fast baneling nest opening are both more strongly nerfed. I use those builds frequently now. You are speaking specifically about a few lings into hatch and droning which is not all pool builds, and you're speaking about HOTS builds and metagame which isn't the same. The hots reference was only to display I am familiar with pool first. I've played LotV since the beta first started. Speed openings are already heavily luck dependent as is, and your argument was revolving around "skill," so I was assuming gasless. Sure baneling busts have been nerfed, but this hardly affects zerg in general non ZvZ. Every change in the beta has created significant changes to how you can open as every race really.
Yes and I like Zerg being able to standard open 13 pool on certain maps and rely on skill and execution to almost equalize. Now I have to rely on luck and that is irritating. It's really not a minor change, it changes the metagame. On Terraform how am I going to prevent Protoss from Nexus 1st now? And they can pylon block me. I have to go pool anyway. Well I pretty much have to go pool 1st, now when they open gateway gas I am faililng to equalize. I am forced into a coinflip by the metagame. So you say what?.Well you probably won't say much because you just open pool 1st in every matchup on every map regardless.
And if we're talking about ZvZ, it's my favorite matchup right now and the metagame is extremely interesting because of how dynamic it is.
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isnt the inject nerf which affects all of zerg production comparatively bigger than the chrono and mule nerf?
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
Adept
Replace shield upgrade with an upgrade which reduces attack period by 45%
Shield reduced from 90/90 to 60/90
HOLY SHIT, that's an 82% attack speed upgrade. Did they word that wrong? I mean it could be a 45% attack speed increase but they wrote a 45% attack period reduction which very literally means firing 1.82x as often.
100/55 (attack period reduced by 45%, is now 55% of what it was) = 1.82x
isnt the inject nerf which affects all of zerg production comparatively bigger than the chrono and mule nerf?
Zerg gets 3 larvae every 45 seconds and 4 from inject every 44.4 seconds with 1 queen per hatch at the moment. You can kinda round that up to be 7 per 45 seconds
reduced to 6 per 45 seconds, it's a 14.28% decrease.
It's proportionally much more of a difference than chrono, but something that's important to take into account is that chrono boost contributes the most out of any time period in the first 38 seconds of the game. Inject isn't available 'til a bit later, even a minute difference at the very start of the game is critically important
I believe for Terran vs Protoss Adept Allins might be even stronger. Why? 30 less shields dont mean a lot in the current state
Well, the strongest adept all-in as i'm told hits around 4:15 - 4:40 with 8 adepts and a warp prism. It's not going to have this detour to twilight council and then research plus research time, not without being significantly modified and probably tuned to hit later - which may or may not be viable depending on the upgrade strength. All-ins with terran have been about dancing around the medivac and stim timings for years as they have a weakness when they get a decent economy but don't have their upgrades or support units yet and then a huge surge of midgame power. That's kinda true against Zerg, too.
It was holdable, just unreasonably difficult to do so or even reliant on luck to guess an opening and not get behind. A 1.2x health reduction is a huge nudge towards making it not a problem; if it still is, go ahead and make the warp prism 5 second warp, 3 range instead of 2 second warp, 6 range. Nobody will be sad.
The mule change may be unfavorable to terran but once again, the chrono boost nerf hits earlier. The extra income from the first 2 mules may be far later - is it early enough to let you start those extra barracks significantly earlier and actually get extra units from it? I think so, but not by a huge amount while the full impact of the chrono nerf will be felt heavily in the first 2 minutes and continually on to the 3:00-4:30 mark. I think the changes to things like adept health will be far, far more of a bit deal.
I think the new chrono (especially since 20% to 22.5% change) was actually mathematically better than the old one and a lot of the power came from that 16 workers at 0:38, 25 workers in no time at all thing. That affected even the earliest of games, it was on and at full power from 00:00 with zero investment. It had weaknesses and annoyances but they did not have a huge impact on that adept all in.
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