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On September 24 2015 07:44 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 04:04 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 24 2015 03:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On September 23 2015 06:57 DinoMight wrote: I'd be okay with:
Get rid of the Oracle attack altogether and make it a detector with Revelation/Stasis. Get rid of Widow Mines and Medivac Boost Get rid of Muta regen
THERE!
You can't take Widow Mines out, because without them, Zerg goes back to A+moving over bio instead of having to skillfully bait out WM shots. We can still nerf then. This is a retarded post anyways, tank marine vs muta bling ling was fantastic back in the day. someone forgot a few muta buff on the way. the level of ignorance in this thread make it quite fun I've to admit. Like most ppl don't even read patch notes :D
Oh the muta regen is stupid as well if that's what you mean. Doesn't make widow mine drops any less brainless
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On September 24 2015 10:35 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 07:44 sAsImre wrote:On September 24 2015 04:04 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 24 2015 03:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On September 23 2015 06:57 DinoMight wrote: I'd be okay with:
Get rid of the Oracle attack altogether and make it a detector with Revelation/Stasis. Get rid of Widow Mines and Medivac Boost Get rid of Muta regen
THERE!
You can't take Widow Mines out, because without them, Zerg goes back to A+moving over bio instead of having to skillfully bait out WM shots. We can still nerf then. This is a retarded post anyways, tank marine vs muta bling ling was fantastic back in the day. someone forgot a few muta buff on the way. the level of ignorance in this thread make it quite fun I've to admit. Like most ppl don't even read patch notes :D Oh the muta regen is stupid as well if that's what you mean. Doesn't make widow mine drops any less brainless
They got a speed buff as well, both that and the regen were to help compensate for the medivac boost. Tanks were too difficult to protect against the better muta's though, and it was much less risky to dart in and kill them so Terran swapped to using widow mines instead.
It's funny how even a small change like the medivac boost creation can change almost everything about the game with major ripples being felt in every matchup.
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8716 Posts
On September 24 2015 06:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 05:03 DinoMight wrote:On September 24 2015 03:12 NonY wrote: I'm absolutely certain that players have put more effort into developing aggressive harassment-based builds than they have into developing defensive anti-harassment builds. If you don't like the way games are playing out, then start on the project of mapping out and spreading good build orders so the bad builds that rely on the ignorance of the opponent lose traction.
There are basically four things you need to pay attention to when countering threats: (1) when playing in the dark, do a build that is capable of responding to the threat when you first detect it or without detecting it, (2) figure out when you need to detect it to be able to respond in time, (3) figure out how to get that scouting done and (4) figure out the most efficient way to repel the threat. Simple. But this can take SO much experimentation to nail down a build that deals with everything. And most people aren't even trying yet.
edit: In other words, I think the counter-measures possible in the game will prove to be good enough in the long run and it's not surprising that they aren't winning the arms race early on. This is a very smart post. I like the general attitude, but things like warp prisms or invincible Nydus are going to come back and bite us. I don't see why they would. The defender still has a significant advantage, enough to invest in a little bit of upgrade/research/econ that the attacker can't and still take good trades. Attacker gets ahead by investing more in army and putting his army in good positions. Defender can invest the same amount and have an easier time getting in good positions, but can save money on warp prism or nydus or whatever method is being used for mobility.
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Nice post.
I agree, the examples mentioned are just silly.
Harassment is and must be meaninful. Its also nice that harass is the best way to secure an advantage.
However it shoudn't be game ending, if its a small commitment it cannot take a very specific reaction or be able to end the game right away. Even if its a big commitment, anything that is too much of a gamble is not fun. Always disliked the way dts worked. Dt "all ins" (early on, mostly) are boring and don't really take skill. When you lose you feel cheated, not outplayed.
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I would add quick speed medievacs and the new warp prism to the list
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As a zerg player I found the list in the OP is kinda of satisfying to see Too bad hardly anybody does baneling drop anymore
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OP doesn't understand, it's soooo soooo fun to watch harass units killing defensless workers until someone runs outta money. Soooo fun.
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This is so true it hurts. Well written OP
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On September 24 2015 11:16 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 06:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 24 2015 05:03 DinoMight wrote:On September 24 2015 03:12 NonY wrote: I'm absolutely certain that players have put more effort into developing aggressive harassment-based builds than they have into developing defensive anti-harassment builds. If you don't like the way games are playing out, then start on the project of mapping out and spreading good build orders so the bad builds that rely on the ignorance of the opponent lose traction.
There are basically four things you need to pay attention to when countering threats: (1) when playing in the dark, do a build that is capable of responding to the threat when you first detect it or without detecting it, (2) figure out when you need to detect it to be able to respond in time, (3) figure out how to get that scouting done and (4) figure out the most efficient way to repel the threat. Simple. But this can take SO much experimentation to nail down a build that deals with everything. And most people aren't even trying yet.
edit: In other words, I think the counter-measures possible in the game will prove to be good enough in the long run and it's not surprising that they aren't winning the arms race early on. This is a very smart post. I like the general attitude, but things like warp prisms or invincible Nydus are going to come back and bite us. I don't see why they would. The defender still has a significant advantage, enough to invest in a little bit of upgrade/research/econ that the attacker can't and still take good trades. Attacker gets ahead by investing more in army and putting his army in good positions. Defender can invest the same amount and have an easier time getting in good positions, but can save money on warp prism or nydus or whatever method is being used for mobility.
That implies that the warp prism cannot make up for its cost. With the Warp Prism you can warp in directly into the fight, pull out units and bring yourself in a better position even directly inside your enemy's base. I don't see where the defender's advantage is here.
Same thing can be said about Ndyus. With invincible nydus, you have the chance to completely neglect any kind of positional advantage from your opponent, and the only real danger you have to overcome is the first wave of units that needs to survive.
That being said, I still agree with your point as in there are definitely ways as a player to react to this kind of stuff properly and even prevent it from happening at all.
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There are so many problems with SC2 at the moment that the future looks grim. I had some hope that LOTV would save SC2 once more but the fact of the matter is that the Blizzard design team can no longer design a game without second guessing themselves every step of the way.
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I don't want to sound rude or anything, but even if I agree harassment can be too strong, don't you guys knows builds order where you are "safe" against everything, even if it can cost you a small eco disadvantage.
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"nothing makes you want to stop playing more than losing to something that you know you can defend. Even worse is when you lose to something you know how to defend, but weren't able to properly scout."
This is litterally every single ZvP for me in top diamond ATM. Protoss players have become extremely good at denying overlord scouts, and my win rate is now terrible in the MU.
I have made a list of every 2 and fake 3-base all-in attack I know of, and researched the correct zerg response that is necessary to defend. The list is about 25 attacks long, and they all require that zerg knows what is coming and how to defend. I have practiced most of the responses in custom games vs practice partners. But without the scouting information I can not execute the defenses. Without the information I die - hard. Yes, knowing how I should have defended if I knew what was coming but failing to get that information eventhough I tried hard to get it.
The different blink/sentry attacks were the straw that has broke my back. There are just so many potential attacks now that it has overwhelmed me. It feels very unfair that zerg has to master 25+ defenses of very strong potential attacks, and protoss only needs to master one of them to win - or even make it into the late game (because zerg has extremely few all-ins).
It is a very frustrating matchup for me right now. My ZvT and ZvZ are very strong, and if it was not for ZvP I would probably have been promoted to masters already.
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I wholeheartedly agree with the OP and I hope Blizzard reads this and does something out of it
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On September 24 2015 20:19 wjat wrote: I don't want to sound rude or anything, but even if I agree harassment can be too strong, don't you guys knows builds order where you are "safe" against everything, even if it can cost you a small eco disadvantage. I assume you are talking about game ending early game harassment (seeing how you are talking build orders).
What most people here criticize is early game harassment that is impossible to scout and respond to in time. Do we really want a game where everyone has to open up defensively because their opponent might go for early harass? Presenting that as the solution is effectively accepting a more narrow set of viable strategies. It's even more so unfair because the options for early game harass are distributed unevenly across the races.
It's just bad for the game both from the player and viewer perspective.
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They need to take notes from WC3. Harassing workers early was a great way to cripple your opponent and end games quickly. But if you invest too heavily in harassment and your opponent defends well, you will be behind and likely lose. WC3 is a shining example of that. Yes, WC3 is a different game in many ways. But what I'm describing is achievable in SC2. Harassment should be useful early game, but in the mid/late game you can lose an expansion and still win the game with a strong army. Most of the league games I've watched end up with two massive armies dancing around each other while trying to pick off each others expansions with smaller forces of the units described by the OP. This is another side effect of the size maps that are being played. Especially when Swarm Hosts were so broken. Zerg players that make it to mid-late game on large maps could just sit back and defend while their Swarm Hosts sent automated wave after wave of harassing units. I got so tired of seeing this in league matches that I just stopped watching Zerg players. I'm glad they fixed it. Anyway, getting a little sidetracked. I agree that this needs to be corrected somehow. Perhaps a special armor/hp upgrade or a tier 3 defensive structure specifically designed at protecting the workers?
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I just want to note that just because something doesn't hit your front, it can still be a plain timing attack and shouldn't automatically be considered "harassment".
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On September 25 2015 00:16 Big J wrote: I just want to note that just because something doesn't hit your front, it can still be a plain timing attack and shouldn't automatically be considered "harassment".
There is no misunderstanding.
People on this thread are upset that they aren't as good as they imagine themselves to be, so they do the bnet forums thing and whine about how its Blizzard's fault.
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On September 25 2015 01:20 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 00:16 Big J wrote: I just want to note that just because something doesn't hit your front, it can still be a plain timing attack and shouldn't automatically be considered "harassment". There is no misunderstanding. People on this thread are upset that they aren't as good as they imagine themselves to be, so they do the bnet forums thing and whine about how its Blizzard's fault.
Which is why I wish Blizzard wouldn't listen to the community.
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On September 25 2015 02:22 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 01:20 Naracs_Duc wrote:On September 25 2015 00:16 Big J wrote: I just want to note that just because something doesn't hit your front, it can still be a plain timing attack and shouldn't automatically be considered "harassment". There is no misunderstanding. People on this thread are upset that they aren't as good as they imagine themselves to be, so they do the bnet forums thing and whine about how its Blizzard's fault. Which is why I wish Blizzard wouldn't listen to the community.
Yeah because being in touch with your playerbase is such a dumb idea and we should leave development to people encaged in a room with no windows.
Seriously, there is a massive difference between "listening to the community" and "doing whatever some random dude on teamliquid says".
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On September 25 2015 01:20 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 00:16 Big J wrote: I just want to note that just because something doesn't hit your front, it can still be a plain timing attack and shouldn't automatically be considered "harassment". People on this thread are upset that they aren't as good as they imagine themselves to be, so they do the bnet forums thing and whine about how its Blizzard's fault. Some people on this thread are upset that others have an opinion that differs from their own so they do the bnet forums thing and whine about how its the communities fault.
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