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United Kingdom20322 Posts
dunno, i think that the extra larva from the hatch would create some early game-breaking situations like the lings vs a gate-nexus i mentioned earlier.
vs 1 gate perhaps but 2 gate is very affordable, doesn't delay the nexus much and is way safer and can actually directly apply pressure to justify it no matter what zerg does. In the game i saw it, lings coming in forced a nexus cancel but it seemed defendable with 20 probes vs ~13 drones left over (and ~4 adepts rushing at the zerg at that point in the game)
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SoCal8910 Posts
yep, see my edit. we were talking about 2 different protoss builds :D
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
gate-nex-core and gate-gate-nex-core are very similar
i'm not very sure how it plays out because nobody really does it on zerg side to us
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On August 30 2015 22:53 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +how is producing units as a zerg player easier than producing units as a terran player? A terran player has different buildings and addons that need to be balanced to make a composition and spend minerals/gas properly, everything also has different production times which means you have to add new ones to production queue at different times to product well. Zerg does not have that as they don't produce from buildings, they unlock tech with them. Their larvae spawns at the same rate no matter what you're making, so production cycles for everything is the same. A lot of the difficulty from zerg macro (as opposed to terran and protoss) came from having to hit injects decently to play and balancing drones+units
I don't know man. The races are so different in production anyways. I don't know how one can say with a straight face that zerg is now obviously the easiest race to produce with, meanwhile Protoss probes can singlehandedly queue whole bases with nearly any pre or postplanning needed. It is what it is. Terran may have to switch back and add barracks and depots, but Zerg has to spread creep and overlords as well. The tech buildings aren't self-building and neither are the upgrades. Queens have to be sent to the right hatches, or produced at the right hatches, meanwhile OCs and addons can be upgraded without looking back, same goes for warpgate transformations. There is lots of macro work to do for all races. The game mechanics aren't equal and where one race might get an advantage, it loses it somewhere else if the game is balanced and that just means it is OK as it is.
The whole "issue" what you exactly have to do and how to perform it is so deeply rooted in the asymetric design aspect of the races that in my opinion it is moot to discuss this isolated from the overall game balance.
We might be able to see that Zerg becomes too strong with the changes, but saying that is because zerg has become too easy when the whole game is balanced around mechanical limits is not really a way to describe such an issue.
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SoCal8910 Posts
i can tell you from experience you don't want to go gate-nexus-core vs a zerg that wants to lift lings in your base. though that will be a thing of the past soon. not gonna lie, im gonna miss actually being able to cause dmg to a greedy player with a wall off 
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
i can tell you from experience you don't want to go gate-nexus-core vs a zerg that wants to lift lings in your base
Ah nobody has done that to us either
hatch lifting is silly IMO.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 30 2015 23:28 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +i can tell you from experience you don't want to go gate-nexus-core vs a zerg that wants to lift lings in your base Ah nobody has done that to us either hatch lifting is silly IMO.
yeah it can be brutal if you're playing greedy, but idk. it was nice to have a way to get some dmg done to a greedy player instead of banging your head against his front door after he's had time to take advantage of the greed.
i suppose when mules and chrono were a thing it was fine, but now, losing those probes/scvs could be a disaster. maybe its not as fair as i thought with the current state of the beta 
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On August 30 2015 23:26 BluemoonSC wrote:i can tell you from experience you don't want to go gate-nexus-core vs a zerg that wants to lift lings in your base. though that will be a thing of the past soon. not gonna lie, im gonna miss actually being able to cause dmg to a greedy player with a wall off
Haha. Yeah, as much as I agree with the drops being a goner, I will be a very sad player when I have to play against bullshit forge openings again which is the exact same thing as a gateway opening, just with an easy win condition and more "sit-and-wait" type of gameplay.
I honestly feel a bit pissed at blizzard that they keep on nerfing all early aggressive tools for zerg again, meanwhile no word about adepts, no word about liberators, oracles and reapers even got buffs.
I mean it's bullshit, either they go with the "we don't want to limit people to opening/defending in X way" (which they seem to apply to every zerg strategy they have introduced and nerfed again), or they go with "we are so excited that players have started to adapt and seem to be getting better results against this new strategy" (what they seem to apply to every strategy zerg is struggling with for a while). I'm very much in favor of the first, but please be consistent in both ways.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
It's impossible not to play "greedy" in LOTV, you have the money for nexus before your gateway is even done
I honestly feel a bit pissed at blizzard that they keep on nerfing all early aggressive tools for zerg again, meanwhile no word about adepts
They actually said that they were being cautious not to overnerf adepts after the huge warpgate nerf made them less useful for killing your opponent.
The prism is obviously messed up with the ability to warp twice as fast as in HOTS and 6 range pickup and i think that's more of the problem than the adept itself.
Also protoss has no way to deal with adepts in the early game (aside from adept vs adept), but that's because zealots and sentries can't stand up to them in any capacity and stalkers are completely terrible against light units (coming out later, costing more than 3 marines yet having similar DPS to one)
Immortals are also REALLY BAD at the moment, most scenarios where i would have previously built immortals are now defaulting to void rays; even defending a blink stalker all in. You'll have a base with 3 gates, a robo and a stargate and actually choose to make adept/voidray instead of immortals.
I don't see drop being put to lair tech as removing that much early agression for zerg - it was kinda silly existing in any form at the 1 minute mark in a game. It's very cheap.
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On August 30 2015 20:53 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +That's just taking what I'm saying to the absurd. LOTV doesn't require as much mechanical skill as HOTS, and the mecanical requirements in HOTS are already very low. Are you actually playing LOTV? Having to expand immediately (every race has suddenly become zerg now unless doing a crazy all in) and then keep expanding is actually a huge tax on you. Harass is more important than ever, so harassing and defending harass at the same time is taxing as well. Being on either side of zerg creep spread is very demanding and they're talking about tuning it up so it spreads even faster but recedes faster after you kill tumors
What? How the heck is expanding faster mechanically more difficult?
And yeah harass is more intense in LOTV. But that means that to harass effectively you need go mechanics, and the defender must have good mechanics. If you harass while forgetting to chrono/inject/land addons, you end up behind the enemy if he decently countered the harass. That's what SC2 is : easy to learn, difficult to master, and until masters level, mechanics will differentiate the players.
Dumbing down the game won't bring in new players. When you play starcraft, you start with the campaign, then watch streams of professional players that inspire you with the quality and complexity of their play. If I can inject as well as Life right off the bat, what's the point of trying to improve my skills? What's the point of actually train on the ladder?
We'll just end up with a simplified game that people watch on streams, but don't play in the hope to get better.
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SoCal8910 Posts
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
What? How the heck is expanding faster mechanically more difficult?
You need a 4'th-5'th base at the time where you'd play with three in WOL/HOTS because your main and nat which you drop like 90 seconds into the game are both half mined out. More buildings are more mechanically demanding
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On August 30 2015 23:36 Cyro wrote:It's impossible not to play "greedy" in LOTV, you have the money for nexus before your gateway is even done Show nested quote +I honestly feel a bit pissed at blizzard that they keep on nerfing all early aggressive tools for zerg again, meanwhile no word about adepts They actually said that they were being cautious not to overnerf adepts after the huge warpgate nerf made them less useful for killing your opponent. The prism is obviously messed up with the ability to warp twice as fast as in HOTS and 6 range pickup and i think that's more of the problem than the adept itself. Also protoss has no way to deal with adepts in the early game (aside from adept vs adept), but that's because zealots and sentries can't stand up to them in any capacity and stalkers are completely terrible against light units (coming out later, costing more than 3 marines yet having similar DPS to one) Immortals are also REALLY BAD at the moment, most scenarios where i would have previously built immortals are now defaulting to void rays; even defending a blink stalker all in. You'll have a base with 3 gates, a robo and a stargate and actually choose to make adept/voidray instead of immortals. I don't see drop being put to lair tech as removing that much early agression for zerg - it was kinda silly existing in any form at the 1 minute mark in a game. It's very cheap.
Well, I think adepts being able to tunnel through blocks is just as silly. You put two queens on your ramp and evacuate your drones from your natural for some time? Doesn't matter, Protoss still gets into your base. It's just as silly and cheap. A block should be a block and tools to bypass them shouldn't come at the 1,2 or 3min mark or be built into early units from the get-go.
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Who the fuck cried about overlord drop other than avilo honestly? ?
You can stop it by scouting the one spot you can lift to and leaving a unit there. What a joke putting drops on the same tier as nydus.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Well, I think adepts being able to tunnel through blocks is just as silly.
I wasn't even aware of that being a thing really (aside from in pvp) - as they can't go through buildings. They need to be able to go through units at some stage i think; maybe put it on the twilight council upgrade? If he ghosts through your queens, you can probably kill the adepts - i keep losing adepts vs zergs constantly early game when they have some lings and queens if i ghost in. It's like blinking agressively, it's a stupid thing to do
Who the fuck cried about overlord drop other than avilo honestly? ?
Pretty much everyone who isn't zerg thinks that it's a stupid mechanic. It's on lair because it's basically FREE, unlike nydus
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On August 31 2015 00:48 Cyro wrote:I wasn't even aware of that being a thing really (aside from in pvp) - as they can't go through buildings. They need to be able to go through units at some stage i think; maybe put it on the twilight council upgrade? If he ghosts through your queens, you can probably kill the adepts - i keep losing adepts vs zergs constantly early game when they have some lings and queens if i ghost in. It's like blinking agressively, it's a stupid thing to do Pretty much everyone who isn't zerg thinks that it's a stupid mechanic. It's on lair because it's basically FREE, unlike nydus
Stupid how? It's unique and interesting and not OP in any way shape or form.
I'll translate for you: stupid = you didn't want to deal with it
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On August 31 2015 00:48 Cyro wrote:I wasn't even aware of that being a thing really (aside from in pvp) - as they can't go through buildings. They need to be able to go through units at some stage i think; maybe put it on the twilight council upgrade? If he ghosts through your queens, you can probably kill the adepts - i keep losing adepts vs zergs constantly early game when they have some lings and queens if i ghost in. It's like blinking agressively, it's a stupid thing to do Pretty much everyone who isn't zerg thinks that it's a stupid mechanic. It's on lair because it's basically FREE, unlike nydus
It's pretty cheap when there are very little units (at hatch tech), because you can basically get in the base with 25/25.
But at lair tech - more units so you need more overlords - it becomes more expensive. At this point, nydus gets really attractive again. You could still use it for banedrops or something, but for an attack it's not as useful anymore.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I'll translate for you: stupid = people don't want to deal with it
no, stupid = makes a ton of stuff inviable for no real reason while not being fun to rely on in a tournament game.
At least ravager adds enough to the game to make FFE inviable.
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After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I agree TBH, from protoss POV.
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EPT
