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On August 30 2015 12:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
This thread is full of hatred for autocast. Why? No one says. Probably because it gives the impression of dumbing down the game (except for auto-cast medivac heals and zealoat charge, of course!), even though it doesn't, it forces your clicks to be spent on more productive things and if you don't, you'll probably lose.
So here's a suggestion.
Make it like widow mine: it's auto-cast in practice, but the icon isn't auto-cast, it's a passive. Happy?
Please if you wanna play a MOBA go play a MOBA. It's a genre in its own. We're talking about a RTS here, which involves actual "looking back at your base" and mechanical skills.
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On August 30 2015 12:07 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 12:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
This thread is full of hatred for autocast. Why? No one says. Probably because it gives the impression of dumbing down the game (except for auto-cast medivac heals and zealoat charge, of course!), even though it doesn't, it forces your clicks to be spent on more productive things and if you don't, you'll probably lose.
So here's a suggestion.
Make it like widow mine: it's auto-cast in practice, but the icon isn't auto-cast, it's a passive. Happy? Please if you wanna play a MOBA go play a MOBA. It's a genre in its own. We're talking about a RTS here, which involves actual "looking back at your base" and mechanical skills.
False dilemma. LotV require as much mechanical skills as HotS. Just not mindless clicking on injects.
Why that logic, please remove production queues, I want to macro, not play a MOBA.
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On August 29 2015 03:51 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:47 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore. You want to reduce everything down to an unnecessary chore? Oh look this argument is back from when they first said they're removing the mechanics. While we're at it lets also get rid of MBS and infinite select. Oh yeah and smart cast. Rally points on workers seem pretty silly because I want to go back to my base everytime a unit is created to move it as well. Oh yeah these are all things the community was up in arms about in SC2 WoL beta as well because it was dumbing down the game as well.
both smartcast and unlimited selection are really hurting the game since its inception. Especially smartcast.
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Thank God they realized how the charge damage is too strong, plz do something about it, blizzard
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I guess I'm just shocked that they gave up so quickly on removing the macro mechanics. I was expecting they'd rebalance the game around the change, but it's like they said nah that's too hard, nevermind. I'm a little disappointed because I felt like removing the macro mechanics was a good direction.
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On August 30 2015 12:40 BaronVonOwn wrote:
I guess I'm just shocked that they gave up so quickly on removing the macro mechanics. I was expecting they'd rebalance the game around the change, but it's like they said nah that's too hard, nevermind. I'm a little disappointed because I felt like removing the macro mechanics was a good direction.
You're on your own in that train of thought. Removing the macro mechanics is not good for the game in any sense. It just lowers the skill ceiling.
Without macro mechanics it'd be way harder to discern the difference between Jaedong and your average top 8 masters hero.
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On August 30 2015 12:58 kenzy_5g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 12:40 BaronVonOwn wrote:
I guess I'm just shocked that they gave up so quickly on removing the macro mechanics. I was expecting they'd rebalance the game around the change, but it's like they said nah that's too hard, nevermind. I'm a little disappointed because I felt like removing the macro mechanics was a good direction. You're on your own in that train of thought. Removing the macro mechanics is not good for the game in any sense. It just lowers the skill ceiling. Without macro mechanics it'd be way harder to discern the difference between Jaedong and your average top 8 masters hero.
I have the feeling the people who say this has not watch a single LotV game, RBBG is on right!! go look at it!! you'll see that even without macro boosters theres so much stuff to do its hard even for 2 persons to do it all.
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On August 30 2015 13:22 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 12:58 kenzy_5g wrote:On August 30 2015 12:40 BaronVonOwn wrote:
I guess I'm just shocked that they gave up so quickly on removing the macro mechanics. I was expecting they'd rebalance the game around the change, but it's like they said nah that's too hard, nevermind. I'm a little disappointed because I felt like removing the macro mechanics was a good direction. You're on your own in that train of thought. Removing the macro mechanics is not good for the game in any sense. It just lowers the skill ceiling. Without macro mechanics it'd be way harder to discern the difference between Jaedong and your average top 8 masters hero. I have the feeling the people who say this has not watch a single LotV game, RBBG is on right!! go look at it!! you'll see that even without macro boosters theres so much stuff to do its hard even for 2 persons to do it all.
That's because Blizzard has turned the game into CuntCraft. Every unit has an ability and for some reason they're really insistent on making the game micro-oriented and based around flashy spells.
Fun to watch? Maybe. Fun to play (against)? Hell no. And i'm right; find me one person who says playing vs Adepts is fun.
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On August 30 2015 12:11 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 12:07 JackONeill wrote:On August 30 2015 12:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
This thread is full of hatred for autocast. Why? No one says. Probably because it gives the impression of dumbing down the game (except for auto-cast medivac heals and zealoat charge, of course!), even though it doesn't, it forces your clicks to be spent on more productive things and if you don't, you'll probably lose.
So here's a suggestion.
Make it like widow mine: it's auto-cast in practice, but the icon isn't auto-cast, it's a passive. Happy? Please if you wanna play a MOBA go play a MOBA. It's a genre in its own. We're talking about a RTS here, which involves actual "looking back at your base" and mechanical skills. False dilemma. LotV require as much mechanical skills as HotS. Just not mindless clicking on injects. Why that logic, please remove production queues, I want to macro, not play a MOBA.
You call it "mindless clicking" but that is exactly what defines an RTS. There are certain repetitive tasks you just have to do and how well someone does it separates the good players from the worse players.
it's the same with constantly building workers and supply depots. Is that "mindless" and should be removed too?
If you want a game without "mindless clicking" play a MOBA.
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On August 30 2015 13:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 12:11 paralleluniverse wrote:On August 30 2015 12:07 JackONeill wrote:On August 30 2015 12:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
This thread is full of hatred for autocast. Why? No one says. Probably because it gives the impression of dumbing down the game (except for auto-cast medivac heals and zealoat charge, of course!), even though it doesn't, it forces your clicks to be spent on more productive things and if you don't, you'll probably lose.
So here's a suggestion.
Make it like widow mine: it's auto-cast in practice, but the icon isn't auto-cast, it's a passive. Happy? Please if you wanna play a MOBA go play a MOBA. It's a genre in its own. We're talking about a RTS here, which involves actual "looking back at your base" and mechanical skills. False dilemma. LotV require as much mechanical skills as HotS. Just not mindless clicking on injects. Why that logic, please remove production queues, I want to macro, not play a MOBA. You call it "mindless clicking" but that is exactly what defines an RTS. There are certain repetitive tasks you just have to do and how well someone does it separates the good players from the worse players. it's the same with constantly building workers and supply depots. Is that "mindless" and should be removed too? If you want a game without "mindless clicking" play a MOBA.
I concur. That guys a moron and insulted Brood War considering BW was 90% "mindless" clicks according to his definition of what constitutes as mindless.
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lol about mindless clicks. My god... every is a mindless click at some extent, the game should read my mind and execute everything I want without me actually playing the game.
It is like "I will put the AI to play Macro for me" then you watch the game as a replay while eating cookies.
I can't believe people think macro is producing units (and they also wanted to try auto-build- units) and microing like a MOBA.
At this moment a MOBA feel more like a RTS than LotV will look if the Dev Team continue to push their goal to destroy it
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On August 30 2015 12:58 kenzy_5g wrote:
You're on your own in that train of thought. Removing the macro mechanics is not good for the game in any sense. It just lowers the skill ceiling.
Without macro mechanics it'd be way harder to discern the difference between Jaedong and your average top 8 masters hero.
hahahaha, Jaedong does not need SC2 macro mechanics to distinguish himself from other players. See: his entire Brood War career. Also worrying about how a change will affect the pro/esports scene is basically the worst motivation ever.
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The "new" Protoss macro (endless CB) will be much more complicated to handle than the old one. Maybe to complicate to balance too.
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Oh my God. A community update I universally approve of and agree with!
So I really hope they do something with the Tempest so it doesn't just do what it did in HOTS: ie negate air massive units all together. Combining it with the new Carriers is still hard to fight against and I'd really love it if we had a game where massive units actually mattered outside of being too powerful to fight, or massively easy to kill. I still feel like we might as well get rid of them and replace them with units that will actually work.
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Auto-mechanics don't sound so bad, their ideas are quite elegant. But I still have a hard time to see why Zerg isn't considered wayyyyyy easier to play than before...
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On August 30 2015 15:53 ZenithM wrote:
Auto-mechanics don't sound so bad, their ideas are quite elegant. But I still have a hard time to see why Zerg isn't considered wayyyyyy easier to play than before...
I would assume that this is like the only thing everyone agrees on?
Mid master Z in hots who is bored out of his mind when playing ZvZ in lotv.  It's better in mus where its more important to spread creep, but not gonna lie.. The macro for Z has gone from 'quite hard \ possibly hardest' to 'easiest' by a landslide.
The redeeming factor would be that getting units or drones is a consideration that can be hard to master and get right while others generally pump out units relatively consistently.
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The problem is, Blizz compromises everything; they want to satisfy all the people here, which makes the game extremely shoddy.
And I think this is the moment when Blizz should make a decisive choice, even though we`re on beta. Now we have 2 months at best cause detail adjustment will take a month or two at least. I mean, overall picture of the game(things like economy and fundamental macro) should be drawn by now, and it seems Blizz is evading the issue.
Please, do or do not. you can`t try forever.
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On August 30 2015 15:53 ZenithM wrote:
Auto-mechanics don't sound so bad, their ideas are quite elegant. But I still have a hard time to see why Zerg isn't considered wayyyyyy easier to play than before...
Because there is nothing they can do about it, so they pretend the problem doesn't exist.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
This thread is full of hatred for autocast. Why? No one says.
I strongly prefer units being complex in other ways than every unit having a spell that's set to autocast that you can take further control of; there's a focus on adding more and more abilities to make micro a thing rather than improving the base engine to let it naturally happen
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I don't get why they just remove mule and Chrono while keeping the queen and inject. It's far more than just a macro chore. if you want to dumb down the race-uniquenss and macro game....why not Auto-Spawn units? And every race gets ~3 diffrent units only.
From a Terran view:
- can calldown Mule for Extra income, emergency repair for burning buildings and units (anywhere), Trigger banelings, divert Tanks, Mines or even colossi shots.
- has to balance Scan/mules
- worker production at best as fast as protoss, but workers neeed to spend time to build stuff instead of just warp in, if you make a OC from CC, you loose time to build workers while Protoss happily keeps making probes. In A base Trade situation a probe can rebuild a whole base in under one minute. Terran has to have scvs, and only can build one building at a time.
- Terran has to build production buildings. The production must resemble and balance the income in gas/minerals and the compostion you want to go for. The longer the game goes, terran has to add production buildings. For the effect of chrono boost, terran can use Reactors and switch add ons.
Inject/Queen
- zerg just makes hatcherys and queens to produce anything
- injecting equals adding production, since what you actually do is making larvae
- yes its pretty mindless. The More Larvae the better, and since queens are pretty good at defending now, equal to the mothership it's not like you dont have enough of them to creep and inject. There is no decisionmaking in injecting. The only skill is not to forget it.
Blizzard wants to make "good play" visible. That means that most things have to be an active decision, not at all autocast.
Protoss/Chronoboost
- Perfect chronoboost execution can make a difference
- Chronoboost emergency units, chronoboost upgrades, chronoboost gateways to ALL-In, constant boost of Big-Ass units...
- It's a decision, not as hard as mule/scan but still a decision, to boost either economy/upgrades.
- It's a tell for the opponent for the reasons above
TL;DR
Mules != Chrono != Inject.
By removing them you take a big part out of every race uniqueness without replacing it. If the goal is to make the pace of the game slower.....well dont start with 12 workers. If its to promote "good plays" by making them visible...make injecting a HARD decision instead of a "the more the better" chore,
e.g. Make the Queen be either able to attack or to use spells by giving them a time consuming transformation.
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EPT
