EPTGood player and low player can enjoy that, i dont see why a diamond player can have the same macro than soo.
Community Feedback Update - August 28 - Page 17
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
Good player and low player can enjoy that, i dont see why a diamond player can have the same macro than soo. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
From a gameplay design point of view I find the chronoboost and mule changes very interesting. I like the chronoboost one in particular as it seems quite elegant. It also remains important throughout the game where it's important that you don't forget switching the chronoboost off a forge or another building when you're done chronoboosting the upgrade/unit. I wonder if in the super late game we'll see like a ton of Nexusses and have everything under chronoboost all the time. Probably too costly. Mule change is good and prevents the dumb insta-comback factor that were mass mules. I'm not sold in the Zerg changes yet, and hope they come up with something more creative that fits the Zerg race more. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I'm a bit more skeptical about auto-mule. I think they should find something else, I don't find it elegant that an economy booster falls down from the sky automatically with no choice involved (now that it's separated from scan/supply drop energy). If Terran really needs the boost, might as well reduce cost or timings here and there instead of re-adding mules. Auto-inject I'm really against altogether. It's like they don't realize that Zerg macro effort is like 95% injects, 5% unit production. Remove injects and Zerg becomes too APM friendly. If they really decide to do that, they should make manual injecting marginally more efficient so that at least high level players can move their fingers to try to macro optimally. Overall, I think Blizzard had other things to focus on than removing macro mechanics, I don't even feel like the community was bringing that up very often... | ||
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
In its current state of units, I welcome stripping down the stuff to do at base, making it auto so I can be more with my army. Yes its not RTS, maybe a mix with MOBA. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On August 30 2015 18:23 Seiniyta wrote: Oh wow, the starcraft 2 subreddit seems way more reasonable then here. It's embarrasing reading all these reactions. Geez. From a gameplay design point of view I find the chronoboost and mule changes very interesting. I like the chronoboost one in particular as it seems quite elegant. It also remains important throughout the game where it's important that you don't forget switching the chronoboost off a forge or another building when you're done chronoboosting the upgrade/unit. I wonder if in the super late game we'll see like a ton of Nexusses and have everything under chronoboost all the time. Probably too costly. Mule change is good and prevents the dumb insta-comback factor that were mass mules. I'm not sold in the Zerg changes yet, and hope they come up with something more creative that fits the Zerg race more. Every 5 posts someone says: "wow the reactions here are soooooooo bad" or "people here are just raging, whatever blizzard does nobody is ever satisfied". First of all, with all the complaining about shitposts in this thread, where are the shitposts? Yeah, there might be 4 or 5 people who write one dismissive sentence and leave it at that. Granted, these people dont contribute to discussion. All the other posts however are simply people stating their opinion and arguments to support it. The only actual shitposting Ive seen is someone complaining about the other posts being so bad. The overall feeling in this thread is, dare I say, negative. The idea of this thread being full of bad posts, simply because they are negative (yet reasonable and well mostly structured) is absolutely ludicrous. Secondly, to the several people saying that people always complain no matter what blizz does, here comes a knowledge bomb: There is actually more than one person on the internet. The person giving negative feedback after one patch is not necessarily one of the people giving negative feedback after another patch. After the last patch I would actually say the majority of reactions were positive, and many people weary of blizzards idiocy - me included - actually turned around and said: "wow, finally blizzard makes a really big change, and it could actually lead somewhere". So the idea of teamliquid being full of people who will just be negative no matter what, is again, ludicrous. When starcraft 2 came out I was absolutely in love with it. I couldnt stop playing it, I couldnt stop thinking about it. Just fantasizing about the great things sc2 could achieve, it had real potential. Eventually though, it became clear blizzard actually had no fucking idea what to do with it. The complete incompetence which has been the driving factor behind almost every major design decision after sc2 came out is mind baffling. Blizzard wants to do their own thing.They want sc2 to be a succesful eSport, and they dont want it to be like broodwar. Yet they have no idea how. Everything weve seen upsofar, is blizzard trying some 'unique' new design, which is usually something copied out of bw, but changed for the worse. The new thing fails, they concede to the complaints, and implement the same thing, but a little more like bw. And in the end, it just doesnt work. Their seemingly complete denial of all the fundamental flaws in the engine is a whole other question entirely. Now, the last patch rolled along and it finally, finally shows a glimpse of sanity. They scrap the shitty race specific macro mechanics which have plagued this game for so long. And its such a drastic change. Who could have even predicted they would actually dare to almost completely remove such longstanding mechanics. It could have been something amazing. But of course, it was too good to be true. They realize they have no idea how to adapt the game to these big changes, so they pussy out. They just add the shite back in, but this time with autocast. Jolly times! Sc2's development process is a travesty. | ||
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Schakal111
20 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 30 2015 19:47 Schakal111 wrote: Its easy because they have no time to balance the game withouth macro mechanics... release this year? its about the time and the money... hate it ;/ This, and also the fact that they seem to shy out of all the big changes until the last moment, at which time they give the "oops we have no time to fix this properly", and they never seem to actually roll them out when they would have the time. It's like them saying "look guys we're trying to fix things and would totally do it if we had enough time" but funny enough, all the revolutionary changes are too late and need to be reverted. If they had made this change a year ago there would have been more than enough time to adapt. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On August 30 2015 12:11 paralleluniverse wrote: False dilemma. LotV require as much mechanical skills as HotS. Just not mindless clicking on injects. Why that logic, please remove production queues, I want to macro, not play a MOBA. That's just taking what I'm saying to the absurd. LOTV doesn't require as much mechanical skill as HOTS, and the mecanical requirements in HOTS are already very low. RTS skill is about doing a lot of things in a restricted period of time. So yeah, if you make everything automatic, it becomes a MOBA. If you make almost everything manual, it's BW. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
That's just taking what I'm saying to the absurd. LOTV doesn't require as much mechanical skill as HOTS, and the mecanical requirements in HOTS are already very low. Are you actually playing LOTV? Having to expand immediately (every race has suddenly become zerg now unless doing a crazy all in) and then keep expanding is actually a huge tax on you. Harass is more important than ever, so harassing and defending harass at the same time is taxing as well. Being on either side of zerg creep spread is very demanding and they're talking about tuning it up so it spreads even faster but recedes faster after you kill tumors | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
People seem to forget that there are many more macro mechanics such as bulding units and buildings. I really like that they focus more on the important parts of the game, which are more RTS like than those removed or changed macro mechanics. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
In response you can always strengthen features of the other races if Zerg is flooding to many units out. If you are telling me you want the game designed around the idea that people will miss injects therefore Zerg units and defense gets a buff then I think that is a dumb approach. It creates an inconsistent race because your success is purely dependent on injects and playing against that isn't fun either because you either get steamrolled by someone that doesn't miss injects or crush someone that misses them. It has made Zerg either way too strong or way too weak depending on the current patch we are on. These mechanics have made it harder to get more consistent gameplay. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On August 30 2015 22:11 FLuE wrote: People forget to that Zerg macro is suppose to be Apm friendly. That is the point of the race, the design in and of itself is the most simple one building produces everything. There is nothing wrong with Zerg macro bring easy the units should flood out and swarm. They can balance around that, but people that keep saying Zerg macro is easy without injects, that's the point! Let things like creep spread, harass defense, flanking, define good and bad zergs. Not clicking a queen every 20 seconds. In response you can always strengthen features of the other races if Zerg is flooding to many units out. If you are telling me you want the game designed around the idea that people will miss injects therefore Zerg units and defense gets a buff then I think that is a dumb approach. It creates an inconsistent race because your success is purely dependent on injects and playing against that isn't fun either because you either get steamrolled by someone that doesn't miss injects or crush someone that misses them. It has made Zerg either way too strong or way too weak depending on the current patch we are on. These mechanics have made it harder to get more consistent gameplay. You are missing the point. The easy production mechanics of Zerg was balanced by the difficulty of keeping good inject through all the game. This difficulty forces Zerg to find the right equilibrium between setting up flanks and micro during the battle and keeping good injects. With automatic injects Zerg race is waaay too much macro friendly and thus you're losing this interesting part of the race, I can guarantee you that with automatics inject in HoTS and keeping everything else the same you would never see bio vs Zerg, as every terran would get demolished by even by much inferior zerg. To me this autocast inject is 100% equivalent to building automatically units, and thus as stupid. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
yep anyone that has actually played zerg knows that autoinject hurts them more now than it would hurt them if they missed their manual inject by 10 seconds. there is simply so much less larva to use these days, and that's the reason i lose most of my games lol. With 2 larvae, this is correct ESPECIALLY in the early stages of the game but with 3 returned from queen and autoinject, i think people (aside from the very very top) benefit a lot in the mid and lategame if the early game is balanced with the slightly lower larvae counts. i really think this increase is a mistake and they should instead give the extra larvae from the hatchery itself rather than inject - they're just making queens very important for larvae again, to the point where half of your larvae comes from the queen - and we were finally stepping away from that. how is producing units as a zerg player easier than producing units as a terran player? A terran player has different buildings and addons that need to be balanced to make a composition and spend minerals/gas properly, everything also has different production times which means you have to add new ones to production queue at different times to product well. Zerg does not have that as they don't produce from buildings, they unlock tech with them. Their larvae spawns at the same rate no matter what you're making, so production cycles for everything is the same. A lot of the difficulty from zerg macro (as opposed to terran and protoss) came from having to hit injects decently to play and balancing drones+units | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
On August 30 2015 22:53 Cyro wrote: With 2 larvae, this is correct ESPECIALLY in the early stages of the game and at the very highest level of play (top 0.1% moreso than top 2-5%) but with 3 returned from queen and autoinject, i think people (aside from the very top) benefit a lot in the mid and lategame if the early game is balanced with the slightly lower larvae counts i really think this increase is a mistake and they should instead give the extra larvae from the hatchery itself rather than inject - they're just making queens very important for larvae again, to the point where half of your larvae comes from the queen - and we were finally stepping away from that. its definitely clear that DK wants less larva in the game, but i think that even 4 natural larva from a hatchery (with maybe +2 from autoinject) is worse for the early game bc of the fact that you have to spend down your larva before queens come out or you're not gonna get anymore. being able to bank 3 larva knowing that you're still making a 4th larva is super shitty for something like zvz where your builds have to be on point so you can have the proper number of drones and still be able to produce your 6 lings for a rush build. or if you went pool first, having 8 lings attacking a protoss who went gate nexus could be game ending. | ||
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Rexeus
78 Posts
Also the effort by blizzard to reduce the time taken for each game allows for more games. Of course there are balance issues here and there, but I hope blizzard continues to move in this direction. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
being able to bank 3 larva knowing that you're still making a 4th larva is super shitty I've always said since LOTV that i want more larvae per minute from the hatchery itself if they're talking about easier macro mechanics (and less from the queen) with the ability to store ~4-6 larvae and still generate them because 3 is a low limit especially if hatchery makes more or if you went pool first, having 8 lings attacking a protoss who went gate nexus could be game ending. It's actually not, in my experience. You can nexus super early, and though i've only been 12pooled once in 50 games it seems holdable with gate-gate-nexus-core or gate-gate-core-nexus adept. Not only holdable but protoss coming out well ahead, i think. Depends on the rush distance on the map, but the trend is long enough distances. Buffing inject to 3 larvae and re-adding chrono boost in some form will help protoss more than zerg with such an opening, at least for the initial defense | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
On August 30 2015 23:03 Cyro wrote: I've always said since LOTV that i want more larvae per minute from the hatchery itself if they're talking about easier macro mechanics (and less from the queen) with the ability to store ~4-6 larvae and still generate them because 3 is a low limit especially if hatchery makes more dunno, i think that the extra larva from the hatch would create some early game-breaking situations like the lings vs a gate-nexus i mentioned earlier. it would definitely make queens more optional early on and i would always love more larva naturally spawning from the hatchery, but i don't think the trade off is good for the early game. It's actually not, in my experience. You can nexus super early, and though i've only been 12pooled once in 50 games it seems holdable with gate-gate-nexus-core or gate-gate-core-nexus adept. Not only holdable but protoss coming out well ahead, i think. Depends on the rush distance on the map, but the trend is long enough distances ah, see im talking about the 1 gate expands, not the 2 gate + core vs a standard pool first. | ||
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