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Czech Republic12129 Posts
They need to re-balance harassment, but otherwise I like this semi-removal idea.
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On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me.
yeah, Protoss has lost a lot of their comback potential without chrono I guess. Zerg still has their economical comeback mechanic (i.e. only make drones), just nerfed down accordingly.
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On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno.
lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators
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On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators
I feel like you should always open gate/gate/core 2adept expand against zerg at the moment. It punishes 3rd bases heavily and is only slightly less economical than core/gate/nexus. Especially because the 2nd nexus has less value without chronoboost (i.e. delaying it isn't as bad by comparison than previously) while keeping zerg on two bases even just for a little while is quite better than previously due to nerfed injects.
At least that has been what I have been struggling the most with. And then of course chargelots wreck everything on the ground with the current bug, including small amounts of lurkers. Only with mass lurker or ultras it feels like you can combat the mass zealot. (maybe banelings, haven't tried yet)
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
I feel like you should always open gate/core/gate 2adept expand against zerg at the moment.
Nobody's opening gate-core-gate because the gateway build time is longer than core. 2gate opening is gate-gate-core
It punishes 3rd bases heavily
I disagree, depending on the map it can be hard to do damage. It sucks to lose 4 adepts to 8-14 lings and 1-2 queens without really killing anything
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On August 31 2015 04:02 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I feel like you should always open gate/core/gate 2adept expand against zerg at the moment. Nobody's opening gate-core-gate because the gateway build time is longer than core. 2gate opening is gate-gate-core
Ah ok. I only scout them buidling at roughly the same time 
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On August 31 2015 02:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. yeah, Protoss has lost a lot of their comback potential without chrono I guess. Zerg still has their economical comeback mechanic (i.e. only make drones), just nerfed down accordingly.
This point is one of the things that worries me the most. It was actually great sometimes to have a lot of chronos banked up to catch up on eco, to launch a hard counter-attack or for many other things... Now all your CBs are being spent every time, it's just dumb.
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On August 31 2015 03:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators I feel like you should always open gate/gate/core 2adept expand against zerg at the moment. It punishes 3rd bases heavily and is only slightly less economical than core/gate/nexus. Especially because the 2nd nexus has less value without chronoboost (i.e. delaying it isn't as bad by comparison than previously) while keeping zerg on two bases even just for a little while is quite better than previously due to nerfed injects. At least that has been what I have been struggling the most with. And then of course chargelots wreck everything on the ground with the current bug, including small amounts of lurkers. Only with mass lurker or ultras it feels like you can combat the mass zealot. (maybe banelings, haven't tried yet)
This does not keep zerg on 2 base. The 2 gate openers are probably the weakest ones toss are using. They delay not only the nexus but the build overall, and don't do much damage if responded to correctly. Also they make toss very predictable which is half the problem as a Zerg. Maybe on terraform
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SoCal8908 Posts
On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me.
the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players.
On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators
gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later.
dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug
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On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug
You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes.
I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds)
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Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On August 31 2015 07:50 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes. I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds)
the wall itself is not greedy, its what you do behind the wall because it acts as a safety net from early zerg aggression.
if you're going gate nexus vs a zerg that has gas, you're probably playing greedy.
On August 31 2015 07:54 Big J wrote:
Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer.
its a lot of fun, but i do think that its more difficult for protoss and terran to come back in any matchup right now
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I think it is a good patch idea all around for new players, for fixing harassment extreme, and so on.
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On August 31 2015 07:55 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 07:50 Lexender wrote:On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes. I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds) the wall itself is not greedy, its what you do behind the wall because it acts as a safety net from early zerg aggression. if you're going gate nexus vs a zerg that has gas, you're probably playing greedy. Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 07:54 Big J wrote:
Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer. its a lot of fun, but i do think that its more difficult for protoss and terran to come back in any matchup right now
Terran is just behind in all their non-mirrors right from the start. They just don't get off the ground and then any worker damage in an already imbalanced situation is gameending. I'm pretty sure Terran could function without mules if they just tweaked the costs/build times of things, in particular the infrastructure of Terran is really expensive and hard to get going if you don't have that extra mining.
For Protoss, yeah they lost a bit of a comeback mechanic. And an interesting mechanic on top of that. I would still rather stay with 2larva inject and no mules at all for the cost of chronoboost at the moment. Watching those highlevel games just shows how much new stuff can evolve if we don't just return to the old build orders in which everyone gets a OC after barracks and a ling flood in ZvZ and everything is instantly built-up and saturated. The pace of the game is just much, much better with the currently nerfed/removed macro mechanics. Units have much more time to shine instead of going over to the opponent, shooting once and getting deflected by 99999 freshly produced units.
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On August 31 2015 04:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 02:59 Big J wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. yeah, Protoss has lost a lot of their comback potential without chrono I guess. Zerg still has their economical comeback mechanic (i.e. only make drones), just nerfed down accordingly. This point is one of the things that worries me the most. It was actually great sometimes to have a lot of chronos banked up to catch up on eco, to launch a hard counter-attack or for many other things... Now all your CBs are being spent every time, it's just dumb.
Try it this way: Now all your CBs are being spent perfectly every time, and I can change the assignment to Nexus for an economy comeback, or on my production buildings, for big counter attack, or in any combination I can think of.
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On August 31 2015 08:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 07:55 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 07:50 Lexender wrote:On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes. I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds) the wall itself is not greedy, its what you do behind the wall because it acts as a safety net from early zerg aggression. if you're going gate nexus vs a zerg that has gas, you're probably playing greedy. On August 31 2015 07:54 Big J wrote:
Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer. its a lot of fun, but i do think that its more difficult for protoss and terran to come back in any matchup right now Terran is just behind in all their non-mirrors right from the start. They just don't get off the ground and then any worker damage in an already imbalanced situation is gameending. I'm pretty sure Terran could function without mules if they just tweaked the costs/build times of things, in particular the infrastructure of Terran is really expensive and hard to get going if you don't have that extra mining. For Protoss, yeah they lost a bit of a comeback mechanic. And an interesting mechanic on top of that. I would still rather stay with 2larva inject and no mules at all for the cost of chronoboost at the moment. Watching those highlevel games just shows how much new stuff can evolve if we don't just return to the old build orders in which everyone gets a OC after barracks and a ling flood in ZvZ and everything is instantly built-up and saturated. The pace of the game is just much, much better with the currently nerfed/removed macro mechanics. Units have much more time to shine instead of going over to the opponent, shooting once and getting deflected by 99999 freshly produced units.
Right. This new patch will be hugely good. Terran gets a little bit of their economy back, Protoss get an awesome new way to use CB, but frankly, I'm concerned about 3 larva. Hopefully the improved economy for T and P helps--a lot--but, I mean ... we're all watching Red Bull right now, right? Zerg is a total lol-fest and everyone knows it.
Their mics were hot after that match versus QXC, and I think I heard something like, "it's so easy." Did anyone else hear that?
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SoCal8908 Posts
they made a lot of mistakes including building cyclones vs mass roach so im not really sure we can take a lot away from that.
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On August 31 2015 08:27 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 08:18 Big J wrote:On August 31 2015 07:55 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 07:50 Lexender wrote:On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes. I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds) the wall itself is not greedy, its what you do behind the wall because it acts as a safety net from early zerg aggression. if you're going gate nexus vs a zerg that has gas, you're probably playing greedy. On August 31 2015 07:54 Big J wrote:
Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer. its a lot of fun, but i do think that its more difficult for protoss and terran to come back in any matchup right now Terran is just behind in all their non-mirrors right from the start. They just don't get off the ground and then any worker damage in an already imbalanced situation is gameending. I'm pretty sure Terran could function without mules if they just tweaked the costs/build times of things, in particular the infrastructure of Terran is really expensive and hard to get going if you don't have that extra mining. For Protoss, yeah they lost a bit of a comeback mechanic. And an interesting mechanic on top of that. I would still rather stay with 2larva inject and no mules at all for the cost of chronoboost at the moment. Watching those highlevel games just shows how much new stuff can evolve if we don't just return to the old build orders in which everyone gets a OC after barracks and a ling flood in ZvZ and everything is instantly built-up and saturated. The pace of the game is just much, much better with the currently nerfed/removed macro mechanics. Units have much more time to shine instead of going over to the opponent, shooting once and getting deflected by 99999 freshly produced units. Right. This new patch will be hugely good. Terran gets a little bit of their economy back, Protoss get an awesome new way to use CB, but frankly, I'm concerned about 3 larva. Hopefully the improved economy for T and P helps--a lot--but, I mean ... we're all watching Red Bull right now, right? Zerg is a total lol-fest and everyone knows it. Their mics were hot after that match versus QXC, and I think I heard something like, "it's so easy." Did anyone else hear that?
My god bro you're literally the ZerglingShepard of Terran.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
some zergs (@redbull) using 6 queens and some lings by 4:30 to defend against warp prism/adept, it's probably extremely difficult if at all possible to do any direct damage against that
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Protoss looks broken...
Adpets with to much health and so cheap
Charge Zealots with 30 dmg that made into the game because Blizz had a mistake with a bug
Warp Prism with 2 sec is to much
I know their afraid of Protoss being weak like they where but now their broken as hell man
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EPT
