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On August 31 2015 08:47 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 08:27 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 31 2015 08:18 Big J wrote:On August 31 2015 07:55 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 07:50 Lexender wrote:On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes. I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds) the wall itself is not greedy, its what you do behind the wall because it acts as a safety net from early zerg aggression. if you're going gate nexus vs a zerg that has gas, you're probably playing greedy. On August 31 2015 07:54 Big J wrote:
Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer. its a lot of fun, but i do think that its more difficult for protoss and terran to come back in any matchup right now Terran is just behind in all their non-mirrors right from the start. They just don't get off the ground and then any worker damage in an already imbalanced situation is gameending. I'm pretty sure Terran could function without mules if they just tweaked the costs/build times of things, in particular the infrastructure of Terran is really expensive and hard to get going if you don't have that extra mining. For Protoss, yeah they lost a bit of a comeback mechanic. And an interesting mechanic on top of that. I would still rather stay with 2larva inject and no mules at all for the cost of chronoboost at the moment. Watching those highlevel games just shows how much new stuff can evolve if we don't just return to the old build orders in which everyone gets a OC after barracks and a ling flood in ZvZ and everything is instantly built-up and saturated. The pace of the game is just much, much better with the currently nerfed/removed macro mechanics. Units have much more time to shine instead of going over to the opponent, shooting once and getting deflected by 99999 freshly produced units. Right. This new patch will be hugely good. Terran gets a little bit of their economy back, Protoss get an awesome new way to use CB, but frankly, I'm concerned about 3 larva. Hopefully the improved economy for T and P helps--a lot--but, I mean ... we're all watching Red Bull right now, right? Zerg is a total lol-fest and everyone knows it. Their mics were hot after that match versus QXC, and I think I heard something like, "it's so easy." Did anyone else hear that? My god bro you're literally the ZerglingShepard of Terran.
You summoned him! 
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Stupid.
Lets re-add chrono because we may have lost something "cool". Is that serious? I didn't realize how cool pressing C and clicking my forge was. How can you expect to balance a whole game when your worried about whether or not shit is cool enough. Starcraft itself is cool... just make a BALANCED game ( That would be really cool!!!). /rant
-- Just because 1 race is struggling does not mean that we need to re-introduce the macro bosoters. Inject and chrono are literally being re-added all because of terran. If multiple races were struggling than I would agree that this is a design problem, but when it's just a single race having problems with the new design. That race should be balanced to fit it, not revert the design completely because of 1 problem.
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On August 30 2015 12:21 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:51 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:47 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore. You want to reduce everything down to an unnecessary chore? Oh look this argument is back from when they first said they're removing the mechanics. While we're at it lets also get rid of MBS and infinite select. Oh yeah and smart cast. Rally points on workers seem pretty silly because I want to go back to my base everytime a unit is created to move it as well. Oh yeah these are all things the community was up in arms about in SC2 WoL beta as well because it was dumbing down the game as well. both smartcast and unlimited selection are really hurting the game since its inception. Especially smartcast.
I agree entirely but it's so hard to defend this point. Very few 'new' players understand how dumbing down such interactions would actually make the game deeper.
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On August 31 2015 09:21 Ouija wrote:
Stupid.
Lets re-add chrono because we may have lost something "cool". Is that serious? I didn't realize how cool pressing C and clicking my forge was. How can you expect to balance a whole game when your worried about whether or not shit is cool enough. Starcraft itself is cool... just make a BALANCED game ( That would be really cool!!!). /rant
-- Just because 1 race is struggling does not mean that we need to re-introduce the macro bosoters. Inject and chrono are literally being re-added all because of terran. If multiple races were struggling than I would agree that this is a design problem, but when it's just a single race having problems with the new design. That race should be balanced to fit it, not revert the design completely because of 1 problem.
Yeah, pretty much this. I think balancing Terran that way is a bit of a missed chance to actually get the good change out and also to attack certain problems that Terran has been struggling with all along, e.g. using gas in their bio-builds and/or transitioning into higher tech units eventually with such styles. Hider brought up an interesting suggestion, which was a 75/50 marauder (probably with some balance tweaks/buffs). Also I feel like a lot could be achieved by tweaking addons, like techlabs to 25/25, OCs to 100minerals (so similar to the mule you get a direct pay-off from the first supply drop) maybe the one or other build time tweak (barracks to 60seconds, stimpack to 140seconds?). Those timings and costs don't fullfill their original/balanced purpose anymore anyways with the changed macro/timings that the changed/removed macro boosters and the 12worker start produce to begin with.
I think with a bunch of such changes Terran could actually be quite on even footing. (besides imbalances that may have existed before the patch anyways)
Also with 3 larva autocast we get into the regions in which this becomes essentially a buff in the lategame compared to manual 4larva that may have to be compensated otherwise. Because for the other races - especially Terran - the proposed adjustment is (probably) still a nerf in comparison to the mulehammer lategame income.
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my gut feeling is that Blizz know that have balanced all protoss timings around chrono and to remove chrono is either a massive nerf to protoss since everything takes longer, or they need to reduce the time cost for every unit and upgrade, which is a massive buff.
this way they can pretty much leave everything alone. Protoss can get a few things quickly and everything else slowly.
It's the easy way out.
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On August 30 2015 23:25 Big J wrote:
We might be able to see that Zerg becomes too strong with the changes, but saying that is because zerg has become too easy when the whole game is balanced around mechanical limits is not really a way to describe such an issue.
Do you believe mechanical and multitasking difficulty to be fundamentally unquantifiable given the asymmetry of the races?
Because - assuming that your answer is yes - that seems very obviously wrong. Even without access to pro replays, we can analyze how many things any given player has to keep active track of throughout certain parts of the game to measure multitasking skill floor, and we can analyze approximately how many meaningful clicks they have to perform to measure mechanical skill floor.
This is all extremely doable, and extraordinarily valuable, because a difference in skill floors and ceilings among races, whether we're able to perceive it or not, if it exists, completely undermines the foundation of fair and meaningful competition.
I know I'm in a very small minority to give a shit about that. People will watch any competition, no matter what the skill floor or ceiling is, no matter how imbalanced it is, and MOBAs are the perfect proof of that even if SC1/SC2 aren't enough... which they ought to be.
edit: that last bit is just me letting off some very hot steam, it's not aimed in your specific direction. 
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P will always be a "broken" and "grimmicky" race until Mothership Core/Mothership is REMOVED. Hero unit doesn't belong to this game.
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On August 31 2015 08:47 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 08:27 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 31 2015 08:18 Big J wrote:On August 31 2015 07:55 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 07:50 Lexender wrote:On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes. I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds) the wall itself is not greedy, its what you do behind the wall because it acts as a safety net from early zerg aggression. if you're going gate nexus vs a zerg that has gas, you're probably playing greedy. On August 31 2015 07:54 Big J wrote:
Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer. its a lot of fun, but i do think that its more difficult for protoss and terran to come back in any matchup right now Terran is just behind in all their non-mirrors right from the start. They just don't get off the ground and then any worker damage in an already imbalanced situation is gameending. I'm pretty sure Terran could function without mules if they just tweaked the costs/build times of things, in particular the infrastructure of Terran is really expensive and hard to get going if you don't have that extra mining. For Protoss, yeah they lost a bit of a comeback mechanic. And an interesting mechanic on top of that. I would still rather stay with 2larva inject and no mules at all for the cost of chronoboost at the moment. Watching those highlevel games just shows how much new stuff can evolve if we don't just return to the old build orders in which everyone gets a OC after barracks and a ling flood in ZvZ and everything is instantly built-up and saturated. The pace of the game is just much, much better with the currently nerfed/removed macro mechanics. Units have much more time to shine instead of going over to the opponent, shooting once and getting deflected by 99999 freshly produced units. Right. This new patch will be hugely good. Terran gets a little bit of their economy back, Protoss get an awesome new way to use CB, but frankly, I'm concerned about 3 larva. Hopefully the improved economy for T and P helps--a lot--but, I mean ... we're all watching Red Bull right now, right? Zerg is a total lol-fest and everyone knows it. Their mics were hot after that match versus QXC, and I think I heard something like, "it's so easy." Did anyone else hear that? My god bro you're literally the ZerglingShepard of Terran.
except he's a lot more passive aggressive and accuses anyone of derailing conversation / trolling if they don't agree with him
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all this whining pro or against autocast based on mechanical ability really distracts from the point that the game's pace was better than it ever was ever since WoL beta with the removal of macro mechanics, and now they are ruining that again without giving it a chance.
i never had as much fun playing sc2 as in the current patch, even with all the broken shit like chargelots. and now its being taken away again without even giving it a real chance? extremely frustrating and disappointing
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I don't like the auto-casted macro boosters on Terran and Protoss tbh. It just looks like pressing a feature into the game that doesn't actually belong there.
On the Zerg the spawn larvae could be an auto-cast on Hatcheries themselves that is available as soon as a Spawning Pool is finished (to compensate for it usually being available, when the 1st Queen pops, which also needs a Pool before). Zergs will still need Queens for creep spread and early defense, but now can choose to delay them.
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I feel people are viewing the Auto-casting the wrong way. Instead of thinking "since it's happening automatically, it could easily not happen anyway" try to think like this:
Terran:
Mules still exist, they are now effectively "Free" workers that balance out the design of Terran (who need less workers than the other races). It would probably be too difficult to balance out terran mining (imagine the complexity with build times of buildings (mining time lost), etc.
However, the crucial thing is that Mules are still there, which means you can still kill them, which will still hurt the Terrans economy (in essence this means Terrans always have one prime target for harassing players, but they are a little beefier so an oracle may go for SCV's instead, which is a nice decision to include).
It also adds the dynamic of moving a bunch of CC's around a lot late-game (exposing them to be killed easier as well).
Protoss
The change honestly will largely work the same. Swapping which building has the chrono is a little easier than babysitting your nexus' energy, but not that much. It feels like a very reasonable middle-way change to me.
Zerg
If you just look at queens as an upgrade to hatcheries, it makes more sense with the autocast. Hatcheries themselves already "autospawn" larvae. This is the same way they worked in BW, it's just that you can view a Queen as an upgrade to each Hatchery. There's also the dynamic of Queens being needed for creep and early game defence. But at the same time they take up supply. So in a way it may be an interesting choice whether to make a queen or just another Hatchery. I hope Blizzard tweaks the spawn rate of Larvae so that this choice becomes relevant (right now it feels like the obvious choice is always to build a queen, because ot their low supply and 3 larvae, like maybe they should alternate between 2 and 3 or something).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while these things happen automatically - they still add dynamic to the game. Killing Mules & Queens still hurt Terrans and Zergs. Chronoboosting still reveals the Protosses intentions to the opponent.
That's why it's better to have these things as autocast than to not have them at all (so long as it's all balanced). At least that's what I think.
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I wonder why can't BLZ just simply make hatcheries spawn larvas faster?
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On August 31 2015 10:51 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 23:25 Big J wrote:
We might be able to see that Zerg becomes too strong with the changes, but saying that is because zerg has become too easy when the whole game is balanced around mechanical limits is not really a way to describe such an issue. Do you believe mechanical and multitasking difficulty to be fundamentally unquantifiable given the asymmetry of the races? Because - assuming that your answer is yes - that seems very obviously wrong. Even without access to pro replays, we can analyze how many things any given player has to keep active track of throughout certain parts of the game to measure multitasking skill floor, and we can analyze approximately how many meaningful clicks they have to perform to measure mechanical skill floor. This is all extremely doable, and extraordinarily valuable, because a difference in skill floors and ceilings among races, whether we're able to perceive it or not, if it exists, completely undermines the foundation of fair and meaningful competition. I know I'm in a very small minority to give a shit about that. People will watch any competition, no matter what the skill floor or ceiling is, no matter how imbalanced it is, and MOBAs are the perfect proof of that even if SC1/SC2 aren't enough... which they ought to be. edit: that last bit is just me letting off some very hot steam, it's not aimed in your specific direction.
No, it's not unquantifable. Make a table in which you list every action and weight it based on difficulty, importance and frequency and tweak it until a large portion of people roughly agree with your assesment. (That's probably only going to be possibpe for a certain level of play and matchup to begin with and not the races themselve). Then we can talk about that.
Before someone does that this topic is always going to be mostly vodoo if looked at isolated.
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On August 31 2015 17:32 Mazuuurk wrote:
I feel people are viewing the Auto-casting the wrong way. Instead of thinking "since it's happening automatically, it could easily not happen anyway" try to think like this:
Terran:
Mules still exist, they are now effectively "Free" workers that balance out the design of Terran (who need less workers than the other races). It would probably be too difficult to balance out terran mining (imagine the complexity with build times of buildings (mining time lost), etc.
However, the crucial thing is that Mules are still there, which means you can still kill them, which will still hurt the Terrans economy (in essence this means Terrans always have one prime target for harassing players, but they are a little beefier so an oracle may go for SCV's instead, which is a nice decision to include).
It also adds the dynamic of moving a bunch of CC's around a lot late-game (exposing them to be killed easier as well).
Protoss
The change honestly will largely work the same. Swapping which building has the chrono is a little easier than babysitting your nexus' energy, but not that much. It feels like a very reasonable middle-way change to me.
Zerg
If you just look at queens as an upgrade to hatcheries, it makes more sense with the autocast. Hatcheries themselves already "autospawn" larvae. This is the same way they worked in BW, it's just that you can view a Queen as an upgrade to each Hatchery. There's also the dynamic of Queens being needed for creep and early game defence. But at the same time they take up supply. So in a way it may be an interesting choice whether to make a queen or just another Hatchery. I hope Blizzard tweaks the spawn rate of Larvae so that this choice becomes relevant (right now it feels like the obvious choice is always to build a queen, because ot their low supply and 3 larvae, like maybe they should alternate between 2 and 3 or something).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while these things happen automatically - they still add dynamic to the game. Killing Mules & Queens still hurt Terrans and Zergs. Chronoboosting still reveals the Protosses intentions to the opponent.
That's why it's better to have these things as autocast than to not have them at all (so long as it's all balanced). At least that's what I think.
It's not a mindset issue. Nobody cares if things autocast or not from a semantics point of view. The point is if all 3 races have something automatically being done you should question if all 3 are needed at all?
My issue is that Blizzard stated they felt these mechanics were hard to master and hard to watch pros use in a way that was exciting, essentially they were boring and didn't add to the game. Now they are trying to rebalance those boring mechanics in an automatic format? People either want the mechanics and try to make them more interesting or get rid of them. The mule doesn't need to be autocast that was never an issue. Chronoboost, so dumb and boring and one dimensional, was never something people said "please make autocast!"
They are creating a whole new problem from one that had two acceptable solutions and going this lame third direction that nobody wants. This has happened in the past where they try to placate both sides with a middle solution and it doesn't work. Not to mention if you are going to try a major change like this at least try and do one balance update. This patch has been worthless to test because the game wasn't also rebalanced around the removal of the mechanics.
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Which freaking "feedback" are they listening to? 10yo kids on their forums coming mostly from the WOW parts?
Give me a break, auto cast macro mechanics, making colossi even more absurd with 9 range, adding 3 larva to the queen, do they actually read real feedback on teamliquid, SC subreddit and others?
DON'T LISTEN TO FEEDWHINE ON YOUR OWN FORUMS BLIZZARD, MOST OF IT IS FROM 10YO KIDS COMING FROM THE WOW FORUMS!
User was warned for this post
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On August 31 2015 17:32 Mazuuurk wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while these things happen automatically - they still add dynamic to the game. Killing Mules & Queens still hurt Terrans and Zergs. Chronoboosting still reveals the Protosses intentions to the opponent.
They didn't say whether there would be a cooldown on chronoboost retargeting. Because if there is not, the protoss can hide his intentions way too easily by swapping it when you scoot, even if you see where to and/or where from: is it on purpose, is it a trick, was it too late or too soon...?
So as you said, it feels too much that Z and T has a good but potentially costly tool, but P has a free but meh one.
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On August 31 2015 16:21 summerloud wrote:all this whining pro or against autocast based on mechanical ability really distracts from the point that the game's pace was better than it ever was ever since WoL beta with the removal of macro mechanics, and now they are ruining that again without giving it a chance. i never had as much fun playing sc2 as in the current patch, even with all the broken shit like chargelots. and now its being taken away again without even giving it a real chance? extremely frustrating and disappointing
I agree I love how LotV currently throws you into the game and the midgame is not midgame any more it's divided into several tiers where you try to edge out small wins for a stronger late game which is truly a late game compared to HotS.
As for the powerlevel of Terran I think a lot of their strength has come from Reactors, with less minerals coming from the Mule, Reactors fast ramp production has taken a huge hit.
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On another topic, I came up with this original idea for an adept upgrade:
- enemy units that you move through with the shade become frightened and take 10damage over 7seconds (can't stack)
Would be a bit more interesting and microdependent than a plain damage upgrade imo. 
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 31 2015 23:02 Big J wrote:On another topic, I came up with this original idea for an adept upgrade: - enemy units that you move through with the shade become frightened and take 10damage over 7seconds (can't stack) Would be a bit more interesting and microdependent than a plain damage upgrade imo.
i think one of the complaints about the adept is that with the shade its incredibly mobile. having 10 adepts use their shade and stand on top of an army would be outrageous.
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On August 31 2015 09:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 08:47 Little-Chimp wrote:On August 31 2015 08:27 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 31 2015 08:18 Big J wrote:On August 31 2015 07:55 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 07:50 Lexender wrote:On August 31 2015 07:27 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 31 2015 01:30 Captain Peabody wrote:
After playing this patch as a bad player, I have to say that the idea that this makes the game easier and less frustrating for casuals is total crap. For me, it's been the exact opposite. Chrono boost made the game way more forgiving for me--if I lost probes, I could chrono them out, if I didn't have enough gateways, I could chrono gateways, if I was behind on upgrades, I could chrono upgrades. Now, I feel like every tiny loss and every mistake is game-ending...even more than before. If I lose probes to harass, I'm put drastically behind, with little or no way to catch up. If I don't have enough gateways during an attack, I'm screwed. If I haven't been getting upgrades, I'm screwed.
This is just my perspective, but so far, I'm really not seeing in what possible world this change makes the game easier for bad players like me. the thing about that perception is that as a new player playing zerg, unlike chrono which can be banked, you cannot get larva back much like you can drop multiple mules at a time or chrono several buildings with banked energy. the system was always inequitable to an extent but more pronounced in lotv because of the numerous harassment and micro options against and for zerg players. On August 31 2015 03:15 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2015 23:43 BluemoonSC wrote:
the problem for me is that zergs have to put up with a greedy opening without taking a huge hit to mid-late game economy, but the other races have tools to punish a greedy opening without a huge hit to mid-late game economy.
like i don't want to have to use a ravager roach push off 2 base in order to deal some form of dmg to the other player. dunno. lol you can't be serious, there's almost no way to punish a quick 3 base zerg at least as protoss, and you can't even open gate nexus on some maps now because of the threat of the quick drop speed lings, so realistically I think protoss is at quite a disadvantage against zerg, remove or nerf the adept and Protoss would probably lose 90% of their pvz or something stupid like that, Terran is pretty much in the same spot except replace adept with liberators gate nexus is a greedy opening. to drop 8 speedlings in a timely manner, it costs like 8+ drones worth of resources (not to mention the time that it takes to research speed), you can't say that the zerg player isn't making a sacrifice to do the ling drop to try to punish a greedy opening. i honestly don't feel too bad that you couldn't sit behind a wall with nothing to defend because you know the zerg is unable to do anything to harm you until later. dunno, warp prisms are pretty good vs a greedy zerg. i think one of the most important things with legacy of the void is keeping your openings flexible so that you can potentially punish another player's opening or match greed with greed. /shrug You keep talking about walls and being greedy for toss and terran, having walls is not being greedy, they cost you resources (quite a lot in some cases) and are a necesity, dou you remember daedalus point? that was a good example of what happened when you couldn't wall of, so stop talking about "being greedy behind a wall" like we terran protoss actually chose to make walls, or try to play games as terran or protoss without walling off an see how it goes. I'm not talking about overlord drops being OP or not, I'm just saying that if you are going to argue at least make arguments that make sense and stop saying that having walls is being greedy (also gate/rax expand are not greedy builds, they are not as safe as gas first or gate/core builds but they are definitively safe builds) the wall itself is not greedy, its what you do behind the wall because it acts as a safety net from early zerg aggression. if you're going gate nexus vs a zerg that has gas, you're probably playing greedy. On August 31 2015 07:54 Big J wrote:
Just watching Red Bull Archon mode. God this patch is the best thing to happen to Starcraft in the last 4years. Please just give it a major balance patch before going 1step back. So fucking awesome seeing all the new meta-details. Just buff Terran, do whatever you want with drops and these balance/design changes, but leave it at 2larva and no chrono/mules for a bit longer. its a lot of fun, but i do think that its more difficult for protoss and terran to come back in any matchup right now Terran is just behind in all their non-mirrors right from the start. They just don't get off the ground and then any worker damage in an already imbalanced situation is gameending. I'm pretty sure Terran could function without mules if they just tweaked the costs/build times of things, in particular the infrastructure of Terran is really expensive and hard to get going if you don't have that extra mining. For Protoss, yeah they lost a bit of a comeback mechanic. And an interesting mechanic on top of that. I would still rather stay with 2larva inject and no mules at all for the cost of chronoboost at the moment. Watching those highlevel games just shows how much new stuff can evolve if we don't just return to the old build orders in which everyone gets a OC after barracks and a ling flood in ZvZ and everything is instantly built-up and saturated. The pace of the game is just much, much better with the currently nerfed/removed macro mechanics. Units have much more time to shine instead of going over to the opponent, shooting once and getting deflected by 99999 freshly produced units. Right. This new patch will be hugely good. Terran gets a little bit of their economy back, Protoss get an awesome new way to use CB, but frankly, I'm concerned about 3 larva. Hopefully the improved economy for T and P helps--a lot--but, I mean ... we're all watching Red Bull right now, right? Zerg is a total lol-fest and everyone knows it. Their mics were hot after that match versus QXC, and I think I heard something like, "it's so easy." Did anyone else hear that? My god bro you're literally the ZerglingShepard of Terran. You summoned him!
Really, guys? So much hate ...
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