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On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now...
I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me?
On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else
I've always put spreading creep in the Army Movement category, but it's a unique element of the game. In a way it's a form of energy scouting, but it also grants a passive buff to all friendly units.
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You're never going to quantify "easiness" in any rigorous fashion. Design the game around fun unit interactions and mechanics rather trying to make sure things are equally difficult for everyone.
If one race truly is easier to play, it'll show up, either in winrates or representation, and you can address that then.
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On September 01 2015 07:17 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now... I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me? Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else I've always put spreading creep in the Army Movement category, but it's a unique element of the game. In a way it's a form of energy scouting, but it also grants a passive buff to all friendly units.
Well you're grabbing an object, hitting a hotkey, and placing a structure somewhere else. It's the exact same action as placing a pylon or supply depot. Sure you waypoint the scv or probe back to minerals or something else, but you also place several creep tumors at a time to make up for it.
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On September 01 2015 07:17 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now... I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me?
Not exclusively but yes.
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On September 01 2015 07:34 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 07:17 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now... I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me? On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else I've always put spreading creep in the Army Movement category, but it's a unique element of the game. In a way it's a form of energy scouting, but it also grants a passive buff to all friendly units. Well you're grabbing an object, hitting a hotkey, and placing a structure somewhere else. It's the exact same action as placing a pylon or supply depot. Sure you waypoint the scv or probe back to minerals or something else, but you also place several creep tumors at a time to make up for it.
Yeah. I hear ya. It grants vision, and friendly-unit buffs. It's an important element for army engagements. It directly impedes your opponent's army movements and effectiveness. It's clearly unique. It's a similar action to building supply--in that you're selecting stuff and clicking--but with the obvious differences that it doesn't provide (or cost) supply, nor does it provide (or cost) money. If you're going to split up categories of play, I'd still put creep in army movement, tactics, positioning and formations.
On September 01 2015 07:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 07:17 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now... I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me? Not exclusively but yes.
I'm not trying to sell anything, man. Lol. I'm a little surprised that this is even causing little waves. Are you really going to argue that spawning larva on hatches is a more complicated unit production capability mechanic than iterating and scaling production facilities? It's just simpler. And it's probably simpler because there are other elements that are more difficult for Zerg, like hatch upgrade timings, defending faster expansion timings, tier3 timings, spreading and then engaging on creep effectively, army position and tactics (because there are fewer activated unit abilities).
I'm definitely not saying that the catalogue of production schemes Terran and Toss have to learn and execute is "the pinnacle of macro". Come on--even though I am prone to hyperbole at times, I certainly never implied that. It's just more complicated than spawning larva. *shrugs*
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On September 01 2015 23:31 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 07:39 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 07:17 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now... I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me? Not exclusively but yes. I'm not trying to sell anything, man. Lol. I'm a little surprised that this is even causing little waves. Are you really going to argue that spawning larva on hatches is a more complicated unit production capability mechanic than iterating and scaling production facilities? It's just simpler. And it's probably simpler because there are other elements that are more difficult for Zerg, like hatch upgrade timings, defending faster expansion timings, tier3 timings, spreading and then engaging on creep effectively, army position and tactics (because there are fewer activated unit abilities). I'm definitely not saying that the catalogue of production schemes Terran and Toss have to learn and execute is "the pinnacle of macro". Come on--even though I am prone to hyperbole at times, I certainly never implied that. It's just more complicated than spawning larva. *shrugs*
No I'm not making any point about the details of those things. I think my point has been very clear:
Sorry, but I find this sort of argument completely blue eyed.
There are a thousand and one assymetries in the game. Macro is not "equally hard" at the moment, it's probably heavily skewed and also completely different every game and matchup you play. You know why? Because blizzard never gave a fuck about making it equally hard. They made it hard, whether that means that after 5years of evolving metagame it turned out 50% harder for Zerg or 50% harder for Terran doesn't matter. What matters is that while the one side has to do "necessary" macro, the other race has to take other "necessary" actions.
And that's going to be the case in a hard enough, balanced game. "Making macro easier" for zerg will just mean that the game gets balanced around different "necessary" actions.
Also it doesn't imply that zerg "has become easiest in macro" to begin with, which is a very subjective perception anyways.
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On September 02 2015 03:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 23:31 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 01 2015 07:39 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 07:17 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now... I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me? Not exclusively but yes. I'm not trying to sell anything, man. Lol. I'm a little surprised that this is even causing little waves. Are you really going to argue that spawning larva on hatches is a more complicated unit production capability mechanic than iterating and scaling production facilities? It's just simpler. And it's probably simpler because there are other elements that are more difficult for Zerg, like hatch upgrade timings, defending faster expansion timings, tier3 timings, spreading and then engaging on creep effectively, army position and tactics (because there are fewer activated unit abilities). I'm definitely not saying that the catalogue of production schemes Terran and Toss have to learn and execute is "the pinnacle of macro". Come on--even though I am prone to hyperbole at times, I certainly never implied that. It's just more complicated than spawning larva. *shrugs* No I'm not making any point about the details of those things. I think my point has been very clear: Show nested quote +Sorry, but I find this sort of argument completely blue eyed.
There are a thousand and one assymetries in the game. Macro is not "equally hard" at the moment, it's probably heavily skewed and also completely different every game and matchup you play. You know why? Because blizzard never gave a fuck about making it equally hard. They made it hard, whether that means that after 5years of evolving metagame it turned out 50% harder for Zerg or 50% harder for Terran doesn't matter. What matters is that while the one side has to do "necessary" macro, the other race has to take other "necessary" actions.
And that's going to be the case in a hard enough, balanced game. "Making macro easier" for zerg will just mean that the game gets balanced around different "necessary" actions.
Also it doesn't imply that zerg "has become easiest in macro" to begin with, which is a very subjective perception anyways.
Don't bother trying to debate with TimeSpiral..he's like the Zerglingshepherd of Terrans. He's always going back and forth about how T needs this buffs and that while downplaying the problems of other races. Are you even surprised he's claiming Zerg inject is easier to do?
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I only played 10 or so games on the last patch. So not nearly enough to have a qualified opinion on anything.
Though it honestly did teach me one thing about my play. The only skill that I've apparently been decent at in Sc2 was in fact injecting.
I suck at decision making, scouting, my micro is horrid. Even the finer points of my macro weren't nearly as polished as i would have liked to have believed, overlord timings, distribution of workers 16 per mineral line, expansion timings and macro hatch timings to keep up with needed production.
Honestly I apparently haven't been winning Imo for the right reasons.
I don't know what is best for the game. Though i don't mind the reintroduction of autocast macro mechanics because it speeds up the game without the clicks. That said i'm still hoping these extra clicks are spent on meaningful actions by pros, to make more interesting games to watch. (would love a show match to see if this really would be the case)
What i don't understand is all the community outrage about the autocast mechanics.
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On September 02 2015 06:13 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2015 03:36 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 23:31 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 01 2015 07:39 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 07:17 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 01 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:On September 01 2015 05:53 Little-Chimp wrote:
I'm not sure why creep spread gets ignored so much in these "jerg ez" discussions about looking at their base lol. Spreading creep well takes up way more actions than popping supply depots, but I guess it doesn't count because it's not in the base and it's not as "mandatory".
Like I suppose you wouldnt creep spread in an important battle, but honestly no terran is going to be building supply depots while splitting marines vs banelings. It's pretty much equal footing.
That being said, lol at autoinject with 3 larva. gg everyone else Well, creepspread isn't even really important in a lot of ZvZs (I guess that doesn't matter) and PvZs. Just read through the crap and have a nice laugh. People trying to sell making 7barracks a factory and a starport as the pinnacle of macro and then only have to look back every 5mins to queue 5more depots are just hilarious. I could also say: "At that point in the game I haven't even placed my spire, started my baneling speed, made an infestation pit, a hive an ultralisk cavern or a greater spire", but whatever. Some people just won't understand it ever, it's assymetric and NOT THE SAME. They just see what they want to see. 3larva will be crazy in the mid and lategame though, especially if the mule and chrono return in nerfed versions. 75% inject rate is probably more than a lot of professional players get in a 20min game right now... I just recently compared Spawn Larva to iterating production facilities. Could that be directed at me? Not exclusively but yes. I'm not trying to sell anything, man. Lol. I'm a little surprised that this is even causing little waves. Are you really going to argue that spawning larva on hatches is a more complicated unit production capability mechanic than iterating and scaling production facilities? It's just simpler. And it's probably simpler because there are other elements that are more difficult for Zerg, like hatch upgrade timings, defending faster expansion timings, tier3 timings, spreading and then engaging on creep effectively, army position and tactics (because there are fewer activated unit abilities). I'm definitely not saying that the catalogue of production schemes Terran and Toss have to learn and execute is "the pinnacle of macro". Come on--even though I am prone to hyperbole at times, I certainly never implied that. It's just more complicated than spawning larva. *shrugs* No I'm not making any point about the details of those things. I think my point has been very clear: Sorry, but I find this sort of argument completely blue eyed.
There are a thousand and one assymetries in the game. Macro is not "equally hard" at the moment, it's probably heavily skewed and also completely different every game and matchup you play. You know why? Because blizzard never gave a fuck about making it equally hard. They made it hard, whether that means that after 5years of evolving metagame it turned out 50% harder for Zerg or 50% harder for Terran doesn't matter. What matters is that while the one side has to do "necessary" macro, the other race has to take other "necessary" actions.
And that's going to be the case in a hard enough, balanced game. "Making macro easier" for zerg will just mean that the game gets balanced around different "necessary" actions.
Also it doesn't imply that zerg "has become easiest in macro" to begin with, which is a very subjective perception anyways. Don't bother trying to debate with TimeSpiral..he's like the Zerglingshepherd of Terrans. He's always going back and forth about how T needs this buffs and that while downplaying the problems of other races. Are you even surprised he's claiming Zerg inject is easier to do?
Zing!
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On September 02 2015 07:14 Cyanocyst wrote:
I only played 10 or so games on the last patch. So not nearly enough to have a qualified opinion on anything.
Though it honestly did teach me one thing about my play. The only skill that I've apparently been decent at in Sc2 was in fact injecting.
Lol same here. I play both Terran and Zerg (Never could get used to WG mechanic). I bound Base cycle from backspace to Space and flew in the ranks because I had really good Zerg Macro. I simply always had more stuff then my opponent. W/o inject now everyone is as good as I am  .
I guess its okay though. I just hate this auto cast crap . Either we have it or don't. None of this band-aid middle ground.
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I feel that TLO sum up pretty well how I feel about the macro booster change, specifically for Zerg:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/H8WhPLl.png)
I hope more pro will be more vocal on this.
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SoCal8933 Posts
i don't think they will bc it's truthfully a matter of preference. you still need to do things in base and spread creep, so you're not ALWAYS looking at your army. but i think there are people on both sides of the argument, people that like the micro and people that don't.
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Again: the whole deal was to make micro, on the margin, more important and macro, on the margin, less important.
It might be that they went overboard - that they balanced it towards micro too much - but I am glad they tried, because (at least for me) in the old standard; there was (in my experience) too littlemicro.
But it could be that they went overboard on it. A little bit more macro might still be a good thing.
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On September 02 2015 19:49 AdrianHealeyy wrote:
Again: the whole deal was to make micro, on the margin, more important and macro, on the margin, less important.
It might be that they went overboard - that they balanced it towards micro too much - but I am glad they tried, because (at least for me) in the old standard; there was (in my experience) too littlemicro.
But it could be that they went overboard on it. A little bit more macro might still be a good thing.
But this change is asymmetric with the different races, the inject being autocast simplify Zerg's macro way more than the autocast chrono/Mules, to a point that, you actually never need to manage your base unless to construct some building, and for my experience this has made Zerg very boring to play. I liked the balance between macro/micro in HoTS, and I wished that it was maintained in LoTV, if I wanted to play a mainly micro-focused game I would play warcraft or even some Moba.
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It could be my low level, but I wasn't bored to play.
Positining overlords, macro hatcheries, spawn larva, zerglings over the map, drops, ...
I think 'we' need to learn to use our new found apm to do more stuf. :p
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kind of nice they're bringing back some of the stuff they took out. I knew it wasnt going to last though  . Terran without mules was a bit much...
Mules on cooldown and autocast is what i've been saying all the time!
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On September 02 2015 19:30 Vanadiel wrote:I feel that TLO sum up pretty well how I feel about the macro booster change, specifically for Zerg: I hope more pro will be more vocal on this.
Because he was competing so much with Koreans... Seriously Zerg issue right now is the auto inject. Just remove the auto inject and then let us do a REAL testing of the MM removal. The current situation is just pseudo removal with having injects in the game.
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Disagree with the direction of the macro mechanic changes, seems to be aiming at a middle ground which doesn't really make either side particularly happy.
Regarding warp-ins, how about making warp-ins with the warp prism take up space inside the warp prism (as well as a nerf to warp-in times, maybe 4-6 seconds)?
This would help against late game mass instant warp-ins and encourage players to fill their warp prisms before sending them to enemy bases. Although it wouldn't really help with warp prism all-ins that much, which aren't off of more than 8 warpgates normally.
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On September 01 2015 07:19 Athenau wrote:
You're never going to quantify "easiness" in any rigorous fashion. Design the game around fun unit interactions and mechanics rather trying to make sure things are equally difficult for everyone.
If one race truly is easier to play, it'll show up, either in winrates or representation, and you can address that then.
You will never be able to quantify the fun factor as well.
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On September 02 2015 19:30 Vanadiel wrote:I feel that TLO sum up pretty well how I feel about the macro booster change, specifically for Zerg: I hope more pro will be more vocal on this.
it's only true for zerg though
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EPT
