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On August 25 2015 23:27 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 05:26 Little-Chimp wrote:
Yes you can turn it off but its still a weird switch flip as opposed to an ability. Cleary blizz wants to keep the queens in so they can be targeted down by the opponent as opposed to having them come from the hatchery. Why not just create a zerg "larva reactor" as an add on to the hatchery? Call it a cerberate and let it be sniped. Why so convoluted? No one has articulated a reason why auto-spawning more larva is better than auto-cast injects. That is other than the visceral hate for auto-cast (except for medivac heals and zealot charge of course) because it gives the optics of dumbing down the game.
Plenty of people have articulated why it sucks in this thread and people have given alternatives that aren't just hatchery spawning it. Read the thread
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Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change.
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On August 26 2015 00:09 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:27 paralleluniverse wrote:On August 25 2015 05:26 Little-Chimp wrote:
Yes you can turn it off but its still a weird switch flip as opposed to an ability. Cleary blizz wants to keep the queens in so they can be targeted down by the opponent as opposed to having them come from the hatchery. Why not just create a zerg "larva reactor" as an add on to the hatchery? Call it a cerberate and let it be sniped. Why so convoluted? No one has articulated a reason why auto-spawning more larva is better than auto-cast injects. That is other than the visceral hate for auto-cast (except for medivac heals and zealot charge of course) because it gives the optics of dumbing down the game. RE: Auto-SpawnSimply put, it would be insanely overpowered. The larva mechanic is both the most important, and most powerful mechanic at Zerg's disposal. Having Blizzard run some tests and determine "this is how much larva Zerg needs" and just making that happen automatically is antithetical to the concept of a skill-based game. It's a concept tantamount to the command center or Nexus automatically adding on production facilities as your economy grows. RE: Visceral HateNobody hates that the Medivac or the Zealot's heal and charge autocast. Units would be broken without those two abilities on autocast.
You can't compare those ability because they have only 1 purpose. For exemple the medivac as only the option to heal. Queen can inject OR spread creep. 2 purposes.
Also as someone said earlier. Autoinject can kill you in ZvZ.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
On August 26 2015 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change.
ur argument is invalid. U can place queen some far from hatch and it will not inject it - u can place tumor. Or just off the auto-cast.
The fact - injections are still ingame, but noone see them (no need to look and click). So why not make hatches just spawn more larva by default? And tweak queens into non eco defensive/support unit with some nerfs (they dont need to injects so they will have too much free mana).
And i want queens to be morphed from larva. As ALL zerg units.
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On August 26 2015 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change.
Yep. Best--and simplest--idea I've seen so far is "turn off auto-inject, and let a nerf be a nerf". Sorry I can't credit where I saw that.
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"I would prefer the Hatchery to spawn extra larvae."
lmao. Why is that even an option? I think most people would prefer the benefits of auto-inject without the necessity of a Queen. It adds nothing to the argument, and it's not surprising that it's leading the poll. Filthy casuals.
The Queen is something of a liability; a necessary draw-back to the constant, extra larvae granted by auto-inject. And yes, they cost supply. But when general consensus is auto-inject is too strong, I don't buy into the argument that we should be making it even better. Something like this should be accompanied by an argument Zerg is disproportionately weak due to this change, which could not be further from the truth.
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On August 26 2015 00:42 i_am_Nite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change. ur argument is invalid. U can place queen some far from hatch and it will not inject it - u can place tumor. Or just off the auto-cast. The fact - injections are still ingame, but noone see them (no need to look and click). So why not make hatches just spawn more larva by default? And tweak queens into non eco defensive/support unit with some nerfs (they dont need to injects so they will have too much free mana). And i want queens to be morphed from larva. As ALL zerg units.
Auto-cast inject is too strong. 4-larva injects were too strong (according to some). Tweaked hatches with no inject would be worse, by far.
I see a lot of people asking for buffs to the queen. The Queen is a very strong fighting unit, and an important spellcaster that is relevant in all stages of the game, in every match up.
Solution: remove auto-cast (this will definitely happen) and keep the Spawn Larva nerf at two.
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If the hatchery auto spawns larva, how does Zerg spread creep? lol
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On August 26 2015 02:02 GGzerG wrote:
If the hatchery auto spawns larva, how does Zerg spread creep? lol
Creep will auto-spread, obviously. It also now has a poison effect, where all enemy combatants become infected and take continuous damage. Roaches will go back to 1-supply--nah, fuck it. Half supply!--and Ravagers will auto-cast their CD ability based on a unit-selection dropdown menu.
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I like the queen channeling ability that increases larva spawn rate.
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On August 26 2015 00:50 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 00:42 i_am_Nite wrote:On August 26 2015 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change. ur argument is invalid. U can place queen some far from hatch and it will not inject it - u can place tumor. Or just off the auto-cast. The fact - injections are still ingame, but noone see them (no need to look and click). So why not make hatches just spawn more larva by default? And tweak queens into non eco defensive/support unit with some nerfs (they dont need to injects so they will have too much free mana). And i want queens to be morphed from larva. As ALL zerg units. Auto-cast inject is too strong. 4-larva injects were too strong (according to some). Tweaked hatches with no inject would be worse, by far. I see a lot of people asking for buffs to the queen. The Queen is a very strong fighting unit, and an important spellcaster that is relevant in all stages of the game, in every match up. Solution: remove auto-cast (this will definitely happen) and keep the Spawn Larva nerf at two.
So basically zerg still has their macro mechanic unlike the other 2 races but only nerfed ?
Such logic... i think its just you're blind hate.
Best solution is for the hatcheris is to give more larva and just remove inject larva... make queens do something else.
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On August 26 2015 02:24 DeepBurrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 00:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 26 2015 00:42 i_am_Nite wrote:On August 26 2015 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change. ur argument is invalid. U can place queen some far from hatch and it will not inject it - u can place tumor. Or just off the auto-cast. The fact - injections are still ingame, but noone see them (no need to look and click). So why not make hatches just spawn more larva by default? And tweak queens into non eco defensive/support unit with some nerfs (they dont need to injects so they will have too much free mana). And i want queens to be morphed from larva. As ALL zerg units. Auto-cast inject is too strong. 4-larva injects were too strong (according to some). Tweaked hatches with no inject would be worse, by far. I see a lot of people asking for buffs to the queen. The Queen is a very strong fighting unit, and an important spellcaster that is relevant in all stages of the game, in every match up. Solution: remove auto-cast (this will definitely happen) and keep the Spawn Larva nerf at two. So basically zerg still has their macro mechanic unlike the other 2 races but only nerfed ? Such logic... i think its just you're blind hate. Best solution is for the hatcheris is to give more larva and just remove inject larva... make queens do something else.
I disagree. I think Zerg should have to physically look back at their base to get additional larva. Protoss has to look back to build production, wrap in units, build pylons, build production for a tech switch, etc. Terran has to look back to build production, build supply, swap addons for a tech switch, build more production for a tech switch, etc.
Zerg has auto-inject now which "frees up apm for fights", where-as T/P didn't get any part of their production automated to free up apm for fights. Zerg should be forced to physically look back at their bases like Terran and Protoss do, and for more than just building macro hatches and a single tech structure.
The only way I see auto-inject staying is if T/P also get a part of their production systems simplified or automated, and I don't think that's the direction we should be heading with LoTV.
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Queen should climb onto the hatchery during auto injects, and you should have to click a merge button to make it happen and unmerge to have her detatch.
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One pro to keeping auto-inject: you can kill it and slow down Zerg's macro. I think this option for harass (i.e. choosing between targeting drones or the queen) is worth keeping.
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On August 26 2015 02:02 GGzerG wrote:
If the hatchery auto spawns larva, how does Zerg spread creep? lol
With queens? What kind of question is this
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I would quote what Fantasy once said during his streaming: "just should be removed" - interesting, huh?
but rather, I would suggest that the mana requirement for inject be raised to 40. It will slow the pace of injection.
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On August 26 2015 02:42 aerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 02:24 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 26 2015 00:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 26 2015 00:42 i_am_Nite wrote:On August 26 2015 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change. ur argument is invalid. U can place queen some far from hatch and it will not inject it - u can place tumor. Or just off the auto-cast. The fact - injections are still ingame, but noone see them (no need to look and click). So why not make hatches just spawn more larva by default? And tweak queens into non eco defensive/support unit with some nerfs (they dont need to injects so they will have too much free mana). And i want queens to be morphed from larva. As ALL zerg units. Auto-cast inject is too strong. 4-larva injects were too strong (according to some). Tweaked hatches with no inject would be worse, by far. I see a lot of people asking for buffs to the queen. The Queen is a very strong fighting unit, and an important spellcaster that is relevant in all stages of the game, in every match up. Solution: remove auto-cast (this will definitely happen) and keep the Spawn Larva nerf at two. So basically zerg still has their macro mechanic unlike the other 2 races but only nerfed ? Such logic... i think its just you're blind hate. Best solution is for the hatcheris is to give more larva and just remove inject larva... make queens do something else. I disagree. I think Zerg should have to physically look back at their base to get additional larva. Protoss has to look back to build production, wrap in units, build pylons, build production for a tech switch, etc. Terran has to look back to build production, build supply, swap addons for a tech switch, build more production for a tech switch, etc. Zerg has auto-inject now which "frees up apm for fights", where-as T/P didn't get any part of their production automated to free up apm for fights. Zerg should be forced to physically look back at their bases like Terran and Protoss do, and for more than just building macro hatches and a single tech structure. The only way I see auto-inject staying is if T/P also get a part of their production systems simplified or automated, and I don't think that's the direction we should be heading with LoTV.
You still look at your base.
And if you think that 1 race should still have to use they nerfed macro mechanic that was already way harder then the other 2 races then that is biases as hell.
You might look to make a handicap on the zerg just because you dont trust you're own skill.
On August 26 2015 03:17 Thouhastmail wrote:
I would quote what Fantasy once said during his streaming: "just should be removed" - interesting, huh?
but rather, I would suggest that the mana requirement for inject be raised to 40. It will slow the pace of injection.
Or we could do like most pro players said and just remove it.
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On August 26 2015 05:36 DeepBurrow wrote:
You might look to make a handicap on the zerg just because you dont trust you're own skill.
It's not a handicap on Zerg, Zerg's macro mechanic is harder but that's because their production is simpler - all units come from the hatchery, being unlocked by a single tech structure. Zergs don't have to balance production buildings or manage add-ons, or look away to a power-field to warp in units, or even look at their base to build supply in overlords. Maybe Zergs like you like auto-inject because you don't trust your own skill.
On August 26 2015 05:36 DeepBurrow wrote:
And if you think that 1 race should still have to use they nerfed macro mechanic that was already way harder then the other 2 races then that is biases as hell.
I feel that all macro mechanics should be nerfed by equivalent amounts, but auto-inject should not exist.
On August 26 2015 05:36 DeepBurrow wrote:
You still look at your base.
Yes Zergs still look at their base but not nearly as much as P/T after this change. They look back to build a macro hatch or two, and their handful of tech structures. After that their macro is on auto pilot with auto-inject. The fact remains that zerg had a massive part of their production system automated, freeing up apm, and neither Protoss or Terran got similar "apm buffs".
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On August 25 2015 05:56 RoomOfMush wrote:
I like a suggestion I read in another thread: Make Larva Inject a channeled ability that needs to be continuously cast by a queen for faster larva spawn rate. As long as the queen is channeling she is periodically losing energy.
This way you would still have to manually click the hatchery, but once you have ordered a queen to inject larva the queen is doing it non-stop.
I am a big fan of "put macro back", but I actually quite like this idea.
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On August 26 2015 00:44 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Whatever the solution that will be found, the autocast queen is just bad for a LOT of reasons (sometimes you want the tumor, any autocast macro ability makes zero sense, dumbs down the game too hard...). So this has to change. Yep. Best--and simplest--idea I've seen so far is "turn off auto-inject, and let a nerf be a nerf". Sorry I can't credit where I saw that.
I really want them to test for at least a week toned down versions of CB, MULEs and injects. Keeping them in game but making them less important.
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EPT
