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On August 22 2015 01:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 01:30 Big J wrote:On August 22 2015 01:22 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 22 2015 01:18 Big J wrote:On August 22 2015 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:If zerg stays that way i have to change races :D It simply is no fun for me to have the macro like that, it doesn't feel like starcraft while playing zerg On August 22 2015 01:11 Big J wrote:
just watching Kiwikaki stream. Can someone confirm the new disruptor one-shots ravagers and roaches and marauders? So like 145damage plus?!?!? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19850026/legacy-of-the-void-beta-patch-255-8-20-2015It does 145 + 55 to shield Ah thanks, in this very thread the OP doesn't list the values. That is... a lot... They have a serious problem with extreme stats in this game... I feel like it is kinda ok though, disruptors aren't that easy to use and they pretty much are the main aoe for protoss now Yeah, I don't really want to say anything about balance because that depends on other stats and other units and so on. I don't know, but I just don't agree with the idea that the disruptor needs to one-shot everything. If they put stupidly high stats on lowtier units like roaches or adepts then the solution is probably not to create units that still blow them up but to tone those stats back a little. The problem is not the other units, the problem is that the disruptor has a fairly high cooldown and if it wouldn't do burst dmg it probably would be useless. So you either lower the cd and thus can lower the dmg or you lower the dmg and design the other protoss units so they are the main dmg dealers, so the disruptor would be more of a support role (which seems kinda weird to me)
Yeah, basically this is what I would prefer. Or as I said, tone back the 2-3 units that you want to be one-shot a bit in the health department and compensate them differently. I feel like it is a bit stupid anyways if a roach has less dps than a single marine or zergling, but nearly as much HP as a tank...
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On August 22 2015 01:48 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 01:44 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2015 01:25 summerloud wrote:just started playing the patch... this is sooo much better  harass, drops, skirmishes everywhere... the one who keeps his army together loses and now imagine this game with maps adapted to it instead of the old hots map i have hope for sc2 again This patch doesn't do anything to encourage this style of play, but Legacy of the Void's faster expanding and economy did. Seriously LotV has been about engagements all over constantly before this patch, the only difference now is it's at a slower pace, especially when workers are destroyed. Feels like we're playing WoL all over again almost. Yeah it does. Less money/units means scrappier engagements across the board.
Also means potentially no engagements. People are a lot less willing to commit when they have almost nothing. I know I've noticed a lot less battles personally. Games just slow in general now, and it's not in the good way.
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On August 22 2015 01:42 Rexeus wrote:
Since this is beta, they could stretch the changes further. Chronoboost is used on probes and units, shouldnt there be a reduction in build time for ALL probes and units. Upgrades too.
No because that would be a huge buff that would break the game. It is equivalent to infinite, automatically casted chronoboost. Terran production is greatly nerfed too, only Zerg at the lower levels is improved due to low-level players mechanics.
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Game is so much more fun now without mindless macro mechanics. Especially for zerg. Decision making is far more important for determining wins.
More can be done to simplify the controls, e.g. keys for selecting all unit/building of the same type (like W for warpgates).
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It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it. Imagine how much better a gold league Zerg is at injecting now with auto inject? That the injects are 50% effective is going to be well offset by there actually being injects.
In contrast, chronoboost and mule removal were serious nerfs.
If blizz tries to balance the game now, they will need to bring Zerg down to Terran and Protoss level for 99% of the player base, but what happens to that 1% pro level?
//Also, I want to complain about controlling the cyclone. How is it supposed to work? You stutter stop so the autocast jogs on? It feels so clumsy and unreliable. Am I supposed to spam cast it on things? Why won't the unit shoot like a real unit? I hate that its "attack" is a spell. It is supremely frustrating to control at gold level.
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seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
[QUOTE]On August 22 2015 02:19 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
If blizz tries to balance the game now, they will need to bring Zerg down to Terran and Protoss level for 99% of the player base, but what happens to that 1% pro level?
dont worry about lower levels, balance the game for pros and matchmaking will do the rest
it never was or will be balanced at all levels of skill. when i was playing 1on1 with protoss in wol and hots i was matched with players with higher atm >95% of the time with a winrate of 50%. pretty much the only players with an apm as low as mine were other tosses. (i was low masters / high diamond with an apm of ~75)
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On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote:
seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics
It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
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On August 22 2015 02:25 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote:
seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW! except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
I'm not sure about that part. If they actually work after the "wild changes" time (if they are to be believed, the upcoming month) to keep the all-ins that have already begun to emerge tame and to fix the broken units so that the released product is not too imbalanced, I see no reason why the game should be less volatile than HotS just because the mechanical requirement is slightly lower. Missing your chronos as Protoss was pretty hard and it was used most of the times to accelerate all-ins so for instance I think we'll see less Protoss upsets thanks to cheeses (IF they fix the warp prism of course).
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On August 22 2015 02:25 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote:
seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW! except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
Ehh I kind of disagree with this line of thinking. Every beta has had some volatile times and this beta has the most drastic changes yet, so the wild west metagame is going to be here for a bit.
But, to be fair, until the top 50 Korean GMs start playing and set the actual meta for us, we can kind of do whatever we want, everyone is kinda noob at this point so fuck it :D
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On August 21 2015 19:57 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:00 Cyro wrote:On August 21 2015 18:57 -Archangel- wrote:On August 21 2015 18:55 MorDka wrote:On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote:
While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this.
From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right! You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players Outside of tank vision or tank range? Pretty important difference there~ I can't play til later and literally nobody AFAIK has posted a video showing how the mechanic works. I assumed it was just like reaver, but reavers can't really siege tank lines in BW. Outside tank range. I was watching Supernova play mech with new patch. The energy ball would come from darkness and he could do nothing about it. Made tanks completely useless for defending expansions. At least reavers needed to be within tank range to shoot the scarab and then it could travel further away. Disruptors seem to be able to shoot it at nothing and then manually control it and send it further away.
I don't think that should have gotten through internal testing, there's no reason to make a reaver-like unit not vulnerable to tanks (or worse, able to casually break them from 14+ range like that)
It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it
They'll still feel it. I offraced as like diamond at best zerg and i still hit my first 6 injects perfectly every game, which is a straight loss of ~12 larvae.
At the half hour mark it would probably be a big benefit, but not at the start of the game
loss of mule and loss of chrono boost especially at the start of the game is huge for other races too
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On August 22 2015 02:19 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it. Imagine how much better a gold league Zerg is at injecting now with auto inject? That the injects are 50% effective is going to be well offset by there actually being injects.
In contrast, chronoboost and mule removal were serious nerfs.
If blizz tries to balance the game now, they will need to bring Zerg down to Terran and Protoss level for 99% of the player base, but what happens to that 1% pro level?
Are you trying to say that everyone below low grandmaster actually benefits 2larva-autoinjects in comparison to 4larva injects? Because if so, you are severly underestimating how good your average diamond ladder joe is with injects, especially in the first 10mins. And what a huge difference it obviously makes even on the first 2to3 rounds of injects which aren't all that hard for anyone who knows about the importance of injects, i.e. (2to3)*2hatchery*2larva=8to12larva = 7to11drones+1overlord.
E.g. my inject-efficiency from the days before the patch recorded by SC2replay stats is like 85-95% for the first 10minutes, which means I get 5.1-5.7larva per minute per queen, while the autoinjects give me 3.
Afterwards it is of course harder to keep up - but also less important. Especially below masters you can already just put down 1-2macro haches extra if you start failing your injects without having huge resources problems from it.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
E.g. my inject-efficiency from the days before the patch recorded by SC2replay stats is like 85-95% for the first 10minutes, which means I get 5.1-5.7larva per minute per queen, while the autoinjects give me 3.
Autoinject will actually only give you 2.7 because you only generate enough energy to inject 1.35x per game minute, not 1.5x (still talking HOTS time).
You can inject every 40s, while the energy takes ~44.4 seconds to regen IIRC. That gap usually forced great injectors to wait sometimes and allowed people to "catch up" at least a bit on their queens energy a bit over a long period of time by spending it faster than it generated if they missed injects.
sc2replay might have actually compensated for that delay when showing the inject uptimes, i think i remember reading something about that
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So one side effect of the hullabaloo is harassibility. The impact of harass has gone up, and subsequently the uptime of action-oriented gestures has gone down, because harassment sets the outcome more firmly. We can nerf harass/buff workers or increase rebound macro if the advantages/disadvantages gained by harassment aren't as fungible as we'd like. Zerg likely has the easiest time supplementing their macrobooster deficit, but Mule and Chrono have no real substitute. So then balance will have to step in to handle mineral cost or timing disparities.
Protoss getting a macro double whammy on top of already being anemic in LotV will leave them in a very alien state, so they have the greatest reason to bring back their macrobooster in some form, especially considering all the little perks Queens and Orbitals get to keep. CB isn't as gamebreaking as we like to scapegoat it and checks all the boxes of being a nice mechanic. Zealot doing burst damage with charge seems like a great direct buff to the ball phase of fighting, because that burst damage is most of the interaction before they vaporize. As for harassment, Zealot's biggest problem was its own mobility and AI, similar to Ultras. I don't know if making Zealot snipes harder to react to is the best approach, but will likely have a minor effect on response time needed overall, so I see this a more of a direct engagement change.
Zerg macrobooster is the lowest hanging fruit for needing changes, but we're sliding into subjectivity land now. It seems like the Zerg's APM needs have been brought down, but the entire macro dynamic has been nearly trivialized, given Zerg's unique production style. There should be a level of macro-reward feedback for the player. Emphasis on precise timed actions should not be readily abandoned. We could look at the larva cap, making it more punishing to leave hatcheries unused, and make it more difficult to bank larva. Or the auto-cast can be replaced; I don't have a good idea for that yet. Just having the Queen nearby slowly draining energy and slowly "chronoing" larva out would be a more visceral sense of that proximity you need to keep with the auto-cast now, but does not satisfy the aforementioned criteria.
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I quite like the econ changes, but there is some balancing to be done.
Purely from a Terran perspective I don't miss mules, I like having to choose between scans and supply drops, it makes meching seem like less of a blind game.. but oh my I didn't expect to have such low mineral income without mules! Even meching I'm constantly starved for minerals. I wonder if something as simple as adjusting tank / hellion mineral amounts by -25 would be enough to combat this but bio is going to need some serious tweaking if this is anything to go by.
I guess the real debate is about zerg though, I played a fair bit of zerg and I agree its an early game nerf but really only for big ling bling all-ins which were kinda bs anyway, but its still early days so hopefully it will all get balanced out, probably with some adjustments to the energy cost of spawn larva.
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I'm quite surprised by how slow the game progresses now and how good and easier it feels to play. I have the impression that I'm in the control of the game, like in HotS. I'm playing Protoss.
On the other hand, I was watching some replays from the point of view of my zerg oponnents and was hard not to conclude that is maybe too easy to spend your money as zerg.
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I still feel like people aren't considering the future implications of this enough.
If right now, with zero changes to the rest of the game, people are already reporting more skirmishes, more fulfilling battles and more fun with the micro of your units, take a second to imagine what's going to happen when they pass over unit cost and efficiency.
The big deal is that it is no longer more beneficial to race to 200/200 and try and do your damage at that point. The slowered production means that every unit is now a far more valuable piece of your offense and defense and harassment becomes much more meaningful in a world where a Zerg can't make 12 drones to saturate a base without meaningful consequences.
The balance is obviously bad, but the design of this game is becoming something magical. This is not Dustin Browder's Starcraft anymore, and we need to keep pushing for the vision of the game that we want.
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On August 22 2015 02:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 02:25 Aocowns wrote:On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote:
seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW! except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv I'm not sure about that part. If they actually work after the "wild changes" time (if they are to be believed, the upcoming month) to keep the all-ins that have already begun to emerge tame and to fix the broken units so that the released product is not too imbalanced, I see no reason why the game should be less volatile than HotS just because the mechanical requirement is slightly lower. Missing your chronos as Protoss was pretty hard and it was used most of the times to accelerate all-ins so for instance I think we'll see less Protoss upsets thanks to cheeses (IF they fix the warp prism of course).
From the sound of it, the koreans found lotv to be hard because of micro, which i take means lots of matches are gonna be kinda spastic. thats at least what i was trying to get at, it might yield more volatile results even after the beta period and a more standard metagame is established. These kinds of changes also means its going to be harder to get back into a game assuming your opponent doesnt fuck up an engagement because the mechanics arent important enough to net you a solid advantage if you're better. Games being decided primarily by how well you control your units are bound to be more volatile, no? especially if the trend of "MORE SPEED MORE ACTION ALL OVER ALL THE TIME" continues
I could be blinded by my cynical outlook on all of this so i dunno 
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On August 22 2015 03:19 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 02:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:On August 22 2015 02:25 Aocowns wrote:On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote:
seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW! except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv I'm not sure about that part. If they actually work after the "wild changes" time (if they are to be believed, the upcoming month) to keep the all-ins that have already begun to emerge tame and to fix the broken units so that the released product is not too imbalanced, I see no reason why the game should be less volatile than HotS just because the mechanical requirement is slightly lower. Missing your chronos as Protoss was pretty hard and it was used most of the times to accelerate all-ins so for instance I think we'll see less Protoss upsets thanks to cheeses (IF they fix the warp prism of course). Games being decided primarily by how well you control your units are bound to be more volatile, no?
If the game speed remains tame (and the toning down of macro mechanics is a step in the right direction) definitely not, they should reward the better player everytime.
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Isn't patch live yet guys? At least I don't see it in my battle.net client.
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EPT
