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On August 15 2015 23:41 Temeter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 23:27 LSN wrote:On August 15 2015 23:21 Cascade wrote:
Auto-inject is the laziest solution ever seen... If you don't want players to have to do injects, then remove the ability ffs.
Killing an auto-inject queen remains a tactical option in battles and harrassments but it wont have that high effect anymore. It's the best solution. Blizzard is perfectly right with its current decisionmaking. They reduce "terrible terrible damage" as well as scaling of advantages and disadvantages. More opportunities for comebacks will be created etc. It is what this game needs. All of these macro mechanics were a reason for comebacks. A fast 3CC could replenish, lots of larva mean lots of drones, and chroonoboost could alleviate tech disadvantages and probe losses.
Ludicrously false, these mechanics were the reason for heavy snowballing, why a 3CC had to suffer absolutely catastrophic damage from a Roach all in or the Zerg was economically behind, why Phoenix had to be weirdly buffed to hard counter the Mutalisk because heavy larvae stacking made tech switches OP.
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Lol, I have never seen the community split so radically, 50 % loves mechanics changes, 50 % HATES them, haha 
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Terran can now build half the supply depots that they usually built. Saves a lot of time, space, scvs, money.
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On August 16 2015 00:02 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 23:56 Temeter wrote:On August 15 2015 23:50 LSN wrote:On August 15 2015 23:41 Temeter wrote:On August 15 2015 23:27 LSN wrote:On August 15 2015 23:21 Cascade wrote:
Auto-inject is the laziest solution ever seen... If you don't want players to have to do injects, then remove the ability ffs.
Killing an auto-inject queen remains a tactical option in battles and harrassments but it wont have that high effect anymore. It's the best solution. Blizzard is perfectly right with its current decisionmaking. They reduce "terrible terrible damage" as well as scaling of advantages and disadvantages. More opportunities for comebacks will be created etc. It is what this game needs. All of these macro mechanics were a reason for comebacks. A fast 3CC could replenish, lots of larva mean lots of drones, and chroonoboost could alleviate tech disadvantages and probe losses. These mechanics were responsible for high advantage vs. disadvantage scaling mostly. Look at 2 hatch vs. 3 hatch ZvZ. Compare at 2 oc vs. 3 oc TvT. The same applies to mixed matchups: compare 3 OC T vs. 4 hatch Z with 2 OC vs. 4 hatch zerg and with 3 OC vs. 3 hatch zerg. Losing a base or having an additional hatch/oc out only a bit late can auto lose you the game or force you unwillingly on all-in-mode due to the high scaling. Exactly this is what narrows down sc2's strategic and tactical diversity. What narrows down ZvZs diversity are mostly roaches, which are incredibly efficient earlygame and snowball everything. TvT always had lots of uncertainities and comebacks, lots of potential for positional play and economical damage. Removing macro will never add to the games diversity. Suddenly the game gets easier, suddenly the game gets less punishing, suddenly comebacks are more possible, suddenly there is more complexity. That's a pipe dream. Sure it will. And you will be one of the guys that hasn't seen it coming but will have to admit it later on when it becomes obvious for everyone. And you know what becomes obvious about your post? You just dislike that zergs will have an easier life with auto injects. You don't even understand the global context and impact of these changes nor want to know them. I am sorry to say. Less 3vs2 base (etc.) scaling is exactly what Sc2 needs. Some other effects: - Less larvas per inject is what I suggested already like 1-2 years ago in balance discussion (and ppl told me its design). Goes without saying that it was just too much with 4 per inject. It was the only thing that matters and forgetting it in important situations or losing 1-2 major queens at times ends the game. - The ability of terran to lose almost all its economy but have about 15 free scv replacements from 3 OC had to go, it made every committment on attacking the terran early on without killing him a complete waste and therefore narrowed down the strategical diversity to pure all-in or pure defensive macro against terran (compare introduction of oracles: that was nothing else than giving protoss an effective ability to harrass terran at all early on). Now there will be more shades of grey and committing on different levels of pressure on terran can pay off without the drawback of mules making your efforts invisible. The game will become more skill heavy due to this for everyone included. - Replacing lategame economy almost completely with supplyless mules is one of the dumbest things Sc2 has seen, it had to go. Rather make terran stronger overall (e.g. scv back to 55-60hp).
Which is a bunch of assumptions without any proof. Interesting you're trying to complain about my the rigidity of what I wrote.
And really, throwing down accusation about bias and then talking about harass being useless because of '15 free scv replacements'? You know that TvZ is balanced with mules in mind? That's how a matchup works, you can't go and say 'that one point is imba'.
As for terran not being able to be pressured, you might check things like stalker pressure or roach pushes. Two base muta opening were always strong too, even if they fallen out of favor for some time in the highest meta. Still managed to kill maru recently, so that's that. Turned out early damage is still early damage.
Heard that whining about mules around a million times, not even going to bother with that. All races have their quirks which are balanced out against each other, no matter how good or bad they are.
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On August 16 2015 02:29 jpg06051992 wrote:Ludicrously false, these mechanics were the reason for heavy snowballing, why a 3CC had to suffer absolutely catastrophic damage from a Roach all in or the Zerg was economically behind, why Phoenix had to be weirdly buffed to hard counter the Mutalisk because heavy larvae stacking made tech switches OP.
Right, and that's why Bio v Z, which often relies on fast 3CC, is zerg favored atm. Riiiiiiiiight.
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On August 16 2015 02:48 Temeter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2015 02:29 jpg06051992 wrote:Ludicrously false, these mechanics were the reason for heavy snowballing, why a 3CC had to suffer absolutely catastrophic damage from a Roach all in or the Zerg was economically behind, why Phoenix had to be weirdly buffed to hard counter the Mutalisk because heavy larvae stacking made tech switches OP. Right, and that's why Bio v Z, which often relies on fast 3CC, is zerg favored atm. Riiiiiiiiight.
That merely became the meta after multitudes of fine tunings and metagame switches occurred as is natural in Starcraft. 3CC became Standard after maps got huge and Terrans really honed down how to play greedy (by defending the flavor of the month Roach/Bane all ins) vs. Zerg who realized the better response after the Roach allin phase was over was merely to play even more greedy.
I understand that the community is divided on this and everyone is entitled to an opinion but after reading your previous statements man it's clear you don't know what your talking about or the underlying ramifications of the macro boosters.
The whole point of removing these boosters is to SLOW the game down now that the super economy start with lower minerals gives you a big influx of money but forces you to expand aggressively, they simply are not needed, they are antiquated and it's time to rebalance things that honestly should have been done back in WOL.
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I kinda died a little inside when they said it was great that players were better at creep spreading and that it was visible. Goodbye legendary zerg creep spreaders, your excelling at this is now the standard among master ladder zergs
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On August 15 2015 06:04 AdrianHealeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 05:53 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The biggest problame is going to be that Zerg will have another 6-8 supply stuck in queens.
But it could be fixed by lowering the supply cost of some units... like roaches and BL and Ultralisk.
I mean Zerg has no god damn 1 supply unit. We do. The drone.
Lol.
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On August 15 2015 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:- Warping-in at a Pylon takes 16 seconds.
I haven't even played SC after WoL, yet reading this made me go
HOOOO BOY.
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The Warp Gate has always been strange to me. It has absolutely no disadvantages to its counterpart. Why not just make the warp-in process longer for all cases, so that players have to choose decide to between Gateway (faster production time at one location) and Warp Gate(slower production at potentially any location)? If Warp Gate is just plain better than the Gateway, then why even have the Gateway in the first place?
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No lurker and liberator nerf? ZvZ and ZvT are so boring right now, Lurker and Liberator/Hellbat all day...
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On August 15 2015 07:41 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm baffled that Zergs are complaining about this patch. Your lives are going to be so much easier, and you'll have to build slightly more unit producing structures *gasp*. Yours is the only change that is a nerf, not a removal. And it's not even really a nerf. You'll probably end up with about the same larva, or more, for substantially less APM. Yet the tears run like rivers before they've even tried it.
I don't want an easy race, because that's exactly what makes me sick of starcraft. People getting build orders/unit composition wins.
If zerg becomes easy, i will feel no reward in playing sc2 anymore.
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United Kingdom20306 Posts
Why not just make the warp-in process longer for all cases
The warp-in time doesn't actually affect the amount of units that you can build per 5 minute period at all. The warp cooldown begins when you start the warp, not when you end it. Even if a warp takes 15 seconds, the warpgate will be able to make X amount of units faster than a gateway will
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Removing macro mechanics isn't an issue. Brood War didn't have any and it was very well designed. We got 'used' to MULEs and the likes because they've been here since the beginning of SC2, truth is they're vastly uninteresting and we don't really need them, I'd actually make an argument for removing the Queen injects altogether and force more hatcheries.
As for warp in changes they were absolutely necessary and it's great to finally see them try something significant regarding Protons design. I'm not sure it'll work though, gate comps still need to be made stronger in some way, through CORE changes, not through the addition of the adept.
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On August 15 2015 13:04 SuperHofmann wrote:
Finally something against Mech.
Maybe Blizzard realized that it was a bit strange that after 5 years of bio now 90% of the korean Terrans have switched to full mech
Anyway i thought they gona react later, if took them 5 years to notice the forcefield bullshit and finally did something about it. I think the balance team reunions are only statistics, graphics, ratios, percents, but they don´t even play the game and don´t have any idea of whats going on.
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Lol, I have never seen the community split so radically, 50 % loves mechanics changes, 50 % HATES them, haha
If I were Blizzard, I would not try to piss off 50 percent of the community that is already playing this game. Bring something new to the table sure, but for the love of god dont clash with us as they have done, try making changes we all can agree upon and dont treat us like we were dumb as Mr.Kim does on his posts "We would like to thank the community","These changes couldnt have gone through if not for the community" I´ve yet to see one serious issue that has been raised by all who have complained on TL and Blizzard actually doing something on the matter, and I think its like a lot of us around here feel like that. Otherwise we would not flood the forums with complaints.
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Russian Federation4 Posts
can make the warp T3 technology
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I actually have no idea how this is going to turn out. :D
I guess now zerg will have to be more carefull about spending their larva, for exemple it will make all-ins really all-in, like doing some amount of damage wont be enough to come back with a round of drone you'll have to kill or leave him half dead.
I don't understand the removal of mule. Maye be a redisign would have been a better option, same goes for chronoboost. But as i said it's going to be tested and figuered out... I hope.
The warp-in stuff is what makes me wet my pants(joy or fear not sur), like early game all-in will cost 150 more minerals and without chrono the delay between warp will be a bit longer than today. So it's worth testing i guess.
Late game pylone will be fun to watch too, like the one near the army with 3-4 cannons and a warp gate, like protoss doesn't build enough building out of their bases.
The warp prisme is... seems pretty OP especially if you have more than one, lets say one is full of imortals the other of adepts; you can whipe out 1.5 base's economy in matter of seconds, but i guess it will speed up the pace of the game in the late stages of it, even less down time.
Anyway looking forward to try it, not sur i'll like it but i'll give it a try.
Much love from a diamond toss playing mainly for fun and a little to destroy other player
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Looking forward to mutalisks now, if terran actually "feels" 20 scvs dying, I think they are dead boys, I think they are dead.
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On August 16 2015 19:03 HaRuHi wrote:
Looking forward to mutalisks now, if terran actually "feels" 20 scvs dying, I think they are dead boys, I think they are dead.
Yeah the best part is that killing SCV's will matter.
Then again Zerg's timings will be more all in then ever,
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EPT
