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On May 24 2015 00:18 Icysoul wrote:
They're aware of what are the implications of such a unit, far more than most of our unit design experts.
Like they were aware of the implications of a unit that can send free units halfway across the map or the implications of a unit such as the warhound or tempest?
Not saying that your post is wrong - we cannot know how the liberator performs ingame - but you are giving blizz way too much credit given their track record.
I still doubt they are aware of the implications of the 8 armor ultra.
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On May 24 2015 00:18 Icysoul wrote:
You know what is embarrassing?
I'll answer: Blizzard apologists who white knight every thread they shouldn't stick their nose in. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even a game designer to realise that 75 DPS 15 range flying units that cost as much as a Siege Tank don't belong in the game, and that even suggesting a unit like that shows how far Blizzard's gone off the deep end. They're not trying to 'fix Starcraft' and make LOTV a final, balanced version of the game. They're just adding random 'cool mega lolz units' for the f***k of it.
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On May 24 2015 00:15 hitpoint wrote:
Nobody builds mutas in lotv? If people have stopped making the most entertaining/fun zerg unit then we've got problems.
I still think siege tanks need a huge buff. Something big, like a range buff or 2 supply cost. Maybe nerf other things to compensate, but tanks are essential for an entertaining game. These new units are just superficial garbage and should be nerfed into oblivion so nobody ever uses them but they can still sell the expansion. Like the Tempest and now the Ravager.
What is hell is fun about a Unit that forces you to run around like a headless chicken over the whole map while trying to catch these?
Im a bit confused: so the Liberator does splash damage with its Ground attack? I thought it will be more like the ravagers shot. Mortar like. Why did they turned it into a flying siege tank? Tanks should be the heavy artillery. Maybe lower the splash from tanks a bit but give them some firepower. At least against armored. Air attack from Liberators seems okay while still being fast. Valkyrie was the same but Mutas were still used in BW.
Has anyone seen Liberators being used? Really wanna see how they look in Action.
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On May 24 2015 01:49 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2015 00:15 hitpoint wrote:
Nobody builds mutas in lotv? If people have stopped making the most entertaining/fun zerg unit then we've got problems.
I still think siege tanks need a huge buff. Something big, like a range buff or 2 supply cost. Maybe nerf other things to compensate, but tanks are essential for an entertaining game. These new units are just superficial garbage and should be nerfed into oblivion so nobody ever uses them but they can still sell the expansion. Like the Tempest and now the Ravager. What is hell is fun about a Unit that forces you to run around like a headless chicken over the whole map while trying to catch these? Im a bit confused: so the Liberator does splash damage with its Ground attack? I thought it will be more like the ravagers shot. Mortar like. Why did they turned it into a flying siege tank? Tanks should be the heavy artillery. Maybe lower the splash from tanks a bit but give them some firepower. At least against armored. Air attack from Liberators seems okay while still being fast. Valkyrie was the same but Mutas were still used in BW. Has anyone seen Liberators being used? Really wanna see how they look in Action.
It doesn't do splash damage, but it does like 3 or 4 times the damage of a Cyclone within 15 range.
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On May 24 2015 01:49 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2015 00:15 hitpoint wrote:
Nobody builds mutas in lotv? If people have stopped making the most entertaining/fun zerg unit then we've got problems.
I still think siege tanks need a huge buff. Something big, like a range buff or 2 supply cost. Maybe nerf other things to compensate, but tanks are essential for an entertaining game. These new units are just superficial garbage and should be nerfed into oblivion so nobody ever uses them but they can still sell the expansion. Like the Tempest and now the Ravager. What is hell is fun about a Unit that forces you to run around like a headless chicken over the whole map while trying to catch these?Im a bit confused: so the Liberator does splash damage with its Ground attack? I thought it will be more like the ravagers shot. Mortar like. Why did they turned it into a flying siege tank? Tanks should be the heavy artillery. Maybe lower the splash from tanks a bit but give them some firepower. At least against armored. Air attack from Liberators seems okay while still being fast. Valkyrie was the same but Mutas were still used in BW. Has anyone seen Liberators being used? Really wanna see how they look in Action.
Quite a lot is fun about that actually xD. Especially when watching Zergs with extremely good control like Life and ByuL constantly fluttering such fragile units on the outskirts of a bio army that could tear it to pieces with even a few moments of complacency. The unit is one that is highly skill-based and presents exciting scenarios due to the risk involved with it maximizing their damage.
==
As for the Liberator's AG attack. It is not splash damage but single target. The way it works is that it deploys a red circle up to 15 range. Any singular unit that steps inside said circle is capable of being fired on for huge damage.
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On May 24 2015 00:06 Ramiz1989 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2015 23:40 ejozl wrote:
I think the Liberator is supposed to:
1) Put a stop to Mass Raven shenanigans in TvT.
2) Put a stop to never ending Tank Wars.
3) Be able to counter Mass Carriers that many Terrans have complained about in LotV.
4) Be able to counter Mass Mutas, in a more secure and cost efficient way. Allowing for more strats from Terran to come to fruition other than: Neverending aggression so Mass Muta never happen or have an entire Mech army designed to kill Mutalisks (Not Siege Tank focused.)
5) Put an end to TvP death balls from Protoss and is an answer for lategame TvP. Protoss will have to divide their army up in chunks and attack multiple fronts, since a singular attack would be completely shut down, simply by 3 of these Liberators targeting a dedicated area.
6) I think they're still stuck in the past and want to put an end to mass burrowed Swarm Hosts in an area. (Possible buff to Swarm Host in future.)
Obviously I don't expect the right tweaking right from the start and I do think it puts even more identity crisis on the Thor, something that might be fixed in a later patch to make it something other than anti air focused.
But I think it's supposed to 'liberate' Terran. But the thing is majority of stuff you have said aren't even a problem in LOTV. 1) I have yet to see mass Ravens in the LOTV. 2) Tank wars have changed a lot since the LOTV where they are able to be picked by the Medivac. Haven't seen those Tank lines like before where both sides won't dare to attack. Liberator with the current design won't end the neverending Tank wars, it will end Siege Tanks and it will end them for good in TvT. 3) Mass Carriers were the problem before people realized that massing Cyclones and Widow Mines handled them decently while being a lot cheaper than Carriers themselves. I know that Morrow was complaining about mass Carriers and then desrow told him "try Cyclones and Widow Mines", and Morrow was like "wow, this actually works". 4) Uh... 5) This might be the valid reasoning but it is still a bad way to handle things. It doesn't address the death ball at all, as it doesn't have splash damage. 6) Swarm Hosts aren't even using burrow anymore as they removed the burrow movement of that unit and they can spawn Locusts even unburrowed now. That said, they still counter flying Locusts as few Liberators will kill all of the Locusts before they land. They might be concerned about mass Lurkers play but Siege Tanks and Cyclones are already there to snipe Lurkers I don't see the reason why they should add another Siege Unit that is also stronger than both of the previous ones...
They still have to account for, when 10 years down the line and they don't support the game anymore that problems like Mass Raven metagames don't suddenly start to pop up.
It addresses death balls, because it's an area, where if you stand in it, it will kill everything fast. When you give such high dps to a ground mode like this one, the way to counter it, is not stand in it. It simply becomes a powerful zoning tool.
It might also be because they worry about mass Lurker in the future, my point being that you cannot 'just' look at the current metagame (if you can even call it that yet) and call what is needed, because as history has proven in RTS, things don't always work out as they are intended. All they can do, is give us a bunch of tools, so we ourselves can problem solve.
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1) it has a 3 second transformation between AA and AG
2) No splash
3)only units that enter the red circle take damage
4) 1 second real time between shots
This not like a siege tank at all, at best its like corrosive bile.
We don't know how this unit will play yet, we tought adepts were going to suck and they ended being good, its not like we know everything, so first test the thing and then see how it plays, also stats can be adjustet, I'm really curious to see how it plays.
Finally this unit WAS pretty much community made, this unit its just like gretorps idea wich by the way, got 3rd place in the contest
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Is that red circle's location determined when the Liberator is "seiged," or can player designate an area post-seige?
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On May 24 2015 02:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2015 01:49 Tresher wrote:On May 24 2015 00:15 hitpoint wrote:
Nobody builds mutas in lotv? If people have stopped making the most entertaining/fun zerg unit then we've got problems.
I still think siege tanks need a huge buff. Something big, like a range buff or 2 supply cost. Maybe nerf other things to compensate, but tanks are essential for an entertaining game. These new units are just superficial garbage and should be nerfed into oblivion so nobody ever uses them but they can still sell the expansion. Like the Tempest and now the Ravager. What is hell is fun about a Unit that forces you to run around like a headless chicken over the whole map while trying to catch these?Im a bit confused: so the Liberator does splash damage with its Ground attack? I thought it will be more like the ravagers shot. Mortar like. Why did they turned it into a flying siege tank? Tanks should be the heavy artillery. Maybe lower the splash from tanks a bit but give them some firepower. At least against armored. Air attack from Liberators seems okay while still being fast. Valkyrie was the same but Mutas were still used in BW. Has anyone seen Liberators being used? Really wanna see how they look in Action. Quite a lot is fun about that actually xD. Especially when watching Zergs with extremely good control like Life and ByuL constantly fluttering such fragile units on the outskirts of a bio army that could tear it to pieces with even a few moments of complacency. The unit is one that is highly skill-based and presents exciting scenarios due to the risk involved with it maximizing their damage. == As for the Liberator's AG attack. It is not splash damage but single target. The way it works is that it deploys a red circle up to 15 range. Any singular unit that steps inside said circle is capable of being fired on for huge damage.
Well i won´t doubt that Mutas are skillful in the right hands. But its definetly not that much fun for the player trying to catch them. But HotS brought the Trend of Units that are annoying and hard to catch anyways (Oracles, Reaper) so I guess it evens out somehow.
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Thanks the red circle was the confusing part in the posted pics. Seems like the Anti-Air Attack is more meant for Mutas in TvZ when going Mech and the ground mode more for TvT to break siege lines and contains. Maybe against Mass air startegies against Protoss too but I dont think they will be that good how some said it here. Voids will still be good against them cause of the armored tag but it might force some more micro (they wanted this anyway from all races in LotV) from toss, like attacking from different angles so not all Voids get splashed.
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If we bring out terms like "apologists", the debate has ended long ago. We have moved from right and wrong to good and evil. The people who argue against you can only do that because they have nefarious agendas, like supporting blizzard no matter what, or shitting on Blizzard no matter what.
I'm pretty sure I've argued in the past that some people will shit on Blizzard no matter what. I still think it's true, and tbh, I think you have to be dishonest not to see it. But when talking about specific changes, if you want to argue, argue the facts, don't argue what the motives of others are. Otherwise we won't go anywhere.
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I like the sound of the new unit. It's good to have a splash air unit that has good mobility. I can see it being an important part of both mech and bio. The ground attack i don't understand but it's cool that it has a secondary role; i just hope it will be balanced with the anti air as the main thing and anti ground a secondary; long range artillery air units are boring.
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On May 24 2015 01:29 xyzz wrote:I'll answer: Blizzard apologists who white knight every thread they shouldn't stick their nose in. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even a game designer to realise that 75 DPS 15 range flying units that cost as much as a Siege Tank don't belong in the game, and that even suggesting a unit like that shows how far Blizzard's gone off the deep end. They're not trying to 'fix Starcraft' and make LOTV a final, balanced version of the game. They're just adding random 'cool mega lolz units' for the f***k of it.
Owow, new concept. "Apologist". I'll put it right next to "counter play", "design", "unit interactions", "meaningful abilities" and "contraction of time".
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On May 23 2015 22:21 Topin wrote:
im not liking these models of unit (liberator and cyclone)
How do you like this model of the Liberator?
I'm thinking about proposing this to Blizz, could use some feedback on the concept first, if you guys got anything.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ppYOFAD.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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so you can park one of these 150/150/2 liberators in the air space behind a mineral line and kill 1 worker/s from 15 range.
Sounds like it can get messy, for comparison tempests require more time to come into play and needs 6s to kill a worker, and they can't retreat with their slow mov speed.
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Blizzard needs to stop creating units with insane range. That is the problem. More range is not the solution for any of the 3 races. BW had the entire range dynamics extremely well. No tempest, viking, swarm hist, cyclone, siege lurker BS.
Just the tank, which is slow, nonflying, immobile, takes time to siege and unsiege, deals friendly fire and has minimum fire range with a huge overkill.
I really hope they address siege lurker soon. I don't care if they make it stronger in other regards or cheaper perhaps, but the current range just isn't fun.
also hope they give the cyclone back it's ground to air attack and instead make an upgrade for additional lock on range (to what it is now), so when it first comes out early came units can escape slightly easier.
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On May 24 2015 06:32 FabledIntegral wrote:
Blizzard needs to stop creating units with insane range. That is the problem. More range is not the solution for any of the 3 races. BW had the entire range dynamics extremely well. No tempest, viking, swarm hist, cyclone, siege lurker BS.
Just the tank, which is slow, nonflying, immobile, takes time to siege and unsiege, deals friendly fire and has minimum fire range with a huge overkill.
I really hope they address siege lurker soon. I don't care if they make it stronger in other regards or cheaper perhaps, but the current range just isn't fun.
also hope they give the cyclone back it's ground to air attack and instead make an upgrade for additional lock on range (to what it is now), so when it first comes out early came units can escape slightly easier.
I think your not taking it far enough...
Let's bring all units to melee range, keep it simple.
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On May 24 2015 06:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 22:21 Topin wrote:
im not liking these models of unit (liberator and cyclone) How do you like this model of the Liberator? I'm thinking about proposing this to Blizz, could use some feedback on the concept first, if you guys got anything.
The missile heads should be in the shape of eagles
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Is that freaking hard for blizz to make real core changes??
Balance, remains as a superficial problem.
Example: They should for freaking once reduce the global dps (making micro more relevant).
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20 pages in, havnt read everything but....what sense does it make to have the spore crawler no longer require an evo but the turret cant be built without a bay, is this not retarded logic? If you say marines can shoot up and scan than I say at least make it consistent, and im not even terran. Seems like silly logic to me.
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On May 24 2015 00:15 hitpoint wrote:
Nobody builds mutas in lotv? If people have stopped making the most entertaining/fun zerg unit then we've got problems.
I still think siege tanks need a huge buff. Something big, like a range buff or 2 supply cost. Maybe nerf other things to compensate, but tanks are essential for an entertaining game. These new units are just superficial garbage and should be nerfed into oblivion so nobody ever uses them but they can still sell the expansion. Like the Tempest and now the Ravager.
If Parasitic Bombs get nerfed, Mutas will surely be used again.
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EPT
