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On May 23 2015 19:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 17:51 404AlphaSquad wrote:On May 23 2015 09:26 usethis2 wrote:On May 23 2015 08:11 pure.Wasted wrote:
I agree with most of this, except the Swarm Host thing. I mean, obviously it was designed and implemented poorly, but I don't think that the idea is uninspired/unsalvageable. Unlike the Tempest which is just slow-moving non-responsive trash. If my memory serves, SH was the most beloved new units of HOTS in this community during its beta testing period. It goes to show a lot.. about the said community. To be fair, the abomination called Warhound drew alot of attention away from the Swarmhost. Swarm Host was pretty good in the beta because most of the people used them aggressively, sieging enemy bases or just pushing directly into enemy with a lot of Zerglings, Roaches, Hydras and Swarm Hosts. It is much later that people figured out turtle Swarm Host style which was horrible but sadly easier to execute and really strong, and that's the point where everyone started to call unit terrible. About Liberator, I am not too worried about numbers as they can tweak them, but the design is worrying. I mean, it basically is half Valkyrie half Siege Tank(kind of) with even higher range than Siege Tank. I don't know why they insist on these high range units. Having Thors, Siege Tanks, Liberators, Vikings and Ravens as your composition pretty much just deflects your opponent for ever wanting to come close to you. They also might counter Siege Tanks in TvT, the only match up where Siege Tanks are mandatory and still used in every game.
Liberator:
Relatively cheap and masseable (1.5 muta cost, 2 supply)
Tanky.
AA mode: Splash damage, low damage, big area, slow fire. Decent concept, but it might be too strong vs other air units, considering the AoE, massability, and HP of the unit.
AG mode: Highest DPS in-game (75DPS!), very fast attack, 15 range, no AoE. For the same cost of a tank you get a ton of DPS without AoE (approximatively, like 8 tempests), that allows to 1-shot most fragile units (marines, hydras, sentries, templars, reapers, WidowMines, zerglings, banes) and 2 shot almost all ground units: Stalkers, Adepts, Zealots, Marauders, Ghosts, Tanks, Cyclones, Roaches, Ravagers, Infestors, SwarmHosts...
Antiground makes 0 sense to me. If you can have a unit like that for 150/150, sure the Tempest can be buffed without the typical complaints we get at it.
So for 150/150/2, you get:
- discussable AA strength, comparing it to a Thor. But focused in micro. Not a bad concept: interesting interactions,speed, low damage and low fire rate= based on possible micro plays and continous control.
- AntiGround mechanic that is 8 times stronger than a Tempest. Seems a bad idea even before throwing it ingame.
Seems "fair".
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When is zerg gonna get a siege unit again?
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On May 23 2015 15:04 -NegativeZero- wrote:
wow, that model is pretty much a valkyrie
I mean the unit is Valkyrie
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On May 23 2015 07:11 Espers wrote:
any in-game preview of the liberator somewhere?
YES! I did some digging around (it took me a while) and found some in game shots, that had me a bit concerned about the overall effectiveness of the unit. The design of the unit is pretty sexy, but I'm concerned that dps will end up being too low. Volleys of only three missiles make the character of the unit appear kind of weak. I'm not sure what the actual numbers amount to for damage itself, but I imagined volleys of 5-6 at least.
+ Show Spoiler +
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@JCoto
I know and agree with everything but it is just a Blizzard policy to release something idiotic and imbalanced to be tested and then nerf it to the ground later(Ravagers also comes to mind). The thing is, even with like 5 Nerfs that it should get, upping the supply and cost, reducing damage for AtG, reducing movement speed and maybe health, it is still stupidly designed unit.
People complain about these long ranged units that are almost risk-free, like Swarm Hosts and Tempests, and then they add something like this to Terran as well.
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On May 23 2015 19:25 Ramiz1989 wrote:
@JCoto
I know and agree with everything but it is just a Blizzard policy to release something idiotic and imbalanced to be tested and then nerf it to the ground later(Ravagers also comes to mind). The thing is, even with like 5 Nerfs that it should get, upping the supply and cost, reducing damage for AtG, reducing movement speed and maybe health, it is still stupidly designed unit.
People complain about these long ranged units that are almost risk-free, like Swarm Hosts and Tempests, and then they add something like this to Terran as well.
I think that some Siege units, long range, low risk like Tempets, can be balanced and relatively if they are very very damage inefficient, used as a soft type of control to snipe some important units (casters, capital units, siege units). However, when they become broken and very damaging (SwarmHost, now Liberator), this becomes obviously abusable.
Fun think is that tempests cost 300/200/4 and are Fleet beacon (very lategame) tech, when Liberator is just starport tech, costs only 25 more gas than a Siege tank and it's masseable, mobile and relatively tanky.
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everything siege tank hoped for and needed in a shiny new unit
They really want sc2 to be that diffferent huh.
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So, where did the Liberator data and ingame screenshots come from? I just started up the Beta and there has not changed anything :/ Still 1700 gas, still no liberator, and my roaches still move when I have burrow researched.
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You have to consider that AG attacks only work within a small preselected area, and if you want to change that area, you have to unsiege and resiege (which will cost you at least 5 seconds).
Their ground attack is interesting because it is so powerful yet so limited.
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this beta seems to be going from bad to worse. No flame, just an honest opinion.
They started by trying some interesting stuff like the Ravager and econ changes but now they are toning it back to boring HotS style.
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It's not like free unit hate wasn't around already for hots beta...
This Liberator seems very confusing to me. Splash vs mutas and hardcore sieging a specific area? Seems like a turtlers dream.
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Why can't they just remove smart-aiming from the tank and buff its damage? Air units are inherently more boring than ground units.
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Lol, just remove the tempest, since the beginning, blizzard has removed the tempest splash, range, dmg and speed... just to give all of that together to a unit that costs almost half it's price and tech requirement.
tempests staying in the game will only make protoss players cry when they see the liberator in action.
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Here are the other changes in the upcoming beta build (B35543).
- New icons for Corrosive Bile, LockOn, Purification Nova, and Phase Shift (Psionic Transfer).
- Cyclones will no longer auto-cast LockOn on changelings or neural-parasited units.
- LockOn logic for air units is better and periodically rechecks that the target is valid (probably due to the high speed of several air units).
There are a few other tiny ones, but I think most of what they mentioned in the Balance Updates post are going to be in the build after this one.
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Ha ha ha.
I get their "let's release a broken version so that it gets used and we can balance it" motto, but man, the Liberator is soooo stupid right now.
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Swarm Host was pretty good in the beta because most of the people used them aggressively, sieging enemy bases or just pushing directly into enemy with a lot of Zerglings, Roaches, Hydras and Swarm Hosts. It is much later that people figured out turtle Swarm Host style which was horrible but sadly easier to execute and really strong, and that's the point where everyone started to call unit terrible.
Dno, I found it extremely obvious to tell that the only thing you could do as mech vs Swarm Host was to turtle, which effectively would stale the games. On the bnet forums, lots of people were complaning about them, and one Blizzard dev said something on the lines of "People aren't using SH the way we want them too, but let's wait and see".
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On May 23 2015 20:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Swarm Host was pretty good in the beta because most of the people used them aggressively, sieging enemy bases or just pushing directly into enemy with a lot of Zerglings, Roaches, Hydras and Swarm Hosts. It is much later that people figured out turtle Swarm Host style which was horrible but sadly easier to execute and really strong, and that's the point where everyone started to call unit terrible.
Dno, I found it extremely obvious to tell that the only thing you could do as mech vs Swarm Host was to turtle, which effectively would stale the games. On the bnet forums, lots of people were complaning about them, and one Blizzard dev said something on the lines of "People aren't using SH the way we want them too, but let's wait and see".
I am pretty positive from tons of Beta games I was watching that they were using like Blizzard wanted to, but later figured out that it isn't the optimal way.
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On May 23 2015 19:49 dcemuser wrote:
You have to consider that AG attacks only work within a small preselected area, and if you want to change that area, you have to unsiege and resiege (which will cost you at least 5 seconds).
Their ground attack is interesting because it is so powerful yet so limited.
"Small" not at at all. It is not limited by area at all, covers perfectly chokes and ramps, and it's 15 range. The unit costs very cheap for what it can do
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On May 23 2015 20:19 rpgalon wrote:
Lol, just remove the tempest, since the beginning, blizzard has removed the tempest splash, range, dmg and speed... just to give all of that together to a unit that costs almost half it's price and tech requirement.
tempests staying in the game will only make protoss players cry when they see the liberator in action.
Well, tempests are an option worth considering if Liberator stay in the game because it will be the only air unit that can attack them for safe distance at low risk, considering how strong terran AA is. Tempests staying in the game is the only way to avoid Protoss "cry"(with good reason though) because we won't have an answer to an obviously broken unit.
Consider that on AG, Liberators have the DPS of 7-8 StimMarines, without considerig upgrades (damage scaling on upgrades for LIberator could be beastly).Liberators have 15 range and 2 supply.
So for 150/150, you can invest a part of you extra gas (bio tends to float gas) to get extra DPS with less supply, and have more range and fairly more DPS than Vikingss to deal with Protoss.
Let's play a little quiz:
Bio + Liberator: How do you snipe Liberators?
- Blink on top?
rekt by MMMM, + AG LIberator damage.
- Storms?
Not enough range, Liberator 1-shots templars.
-Skytoss?
Phoenix and VoidRays are short range, and will be wasted by MMMM; what's more, Liberators have the potential to deal with them in straigth air battles.
Voidrays move slow and will take time to arrive, LIberators can just move.
Then it's about Tempests or Carriers, and interceptors just die to Bio without dealing damage.
Tempest is the only answer.
A reason for Tempest to exist is Liberator range for AG. And just to note:
Tempest range:15, 9 DPS, both ground and air.
Liberator range: 15, 75 DPS, ground only in an area. You keep it behind bio, and it will add the DPS of 8 marines for only 2 supply.
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Liberator is quite possible the most imbalanced unit they've ever added to this game. More imbalanced than the Warhound. Someone smoked crack when he came up with the damage numbers for that thing. Terran can scan and just waste everything ground based in a 15 range bubble in an instant.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tPYstk3.jpg)
