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I always felt like the Siege Tank should've been the be all, end all of siege range. Not necessarily because Terran bias (okay, maybe a little), but it honestly felt like a good balance of damage output and range.
Tempests felt like a cheap knockoff of a Brood Lord, with better range, slight AA capability, piss-poor damage output and agonizingly slow speed; the flying aspect alone guaranteed that it was going to be a boring siege unit, since it could be virtually uncontested while fitting snugly into a Protoss deathball.
Swarm hosts were absolutely broken in terms of range; it was unfun to try to kill something two screens away while you contended with their tangible glass cannon byproducts. Now they've become too specialized and are overly vulnerable, sacrificing army value for half of its existence.
Lurkers look cool because, despite their shorter range, they can mince armies very well should any fall into their range. It operates under Hellion splash logic (which is based on the old BW Lurker logic), but the burrow means there's more likelihood of being able to optimizing the line splash if properly applied (whereas Hellions just tended to die when trying to get up close and personal).
All of the capital ships are fine in terms of range; Carriers and Brood Lords have a relative range of 9, while the Battlecruiser has the Yamato Cannon. Shame they're kind of useless in small numbers; not very intimidating for capital ships.
The point is, trying to extend a unit's range beyond 13 is usually asking for trouble, since it means the other variables have to be adjusted so extremely as to make it sufficiently vulnerable that the range becomes a liability in balancing the unit in the first place. The Tempest had lots of this trouble during the HotS beta, and the Swarm Host is now floundering to find itself again with its new changes.
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@Spect8rCraft
New Carriers also belong to the "Wtf?" category with their new ability as they can send Interceptors and fly back to base or be recalled with Mothership core, but at least Carriers are huge investment and Interceptors can easily be killed with Widow Mines, Parasitic Bomb, Fungal.
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On May 23 2015 21:47 xyzz wrote:
Liberator is quite possible the most imbalanced unit they've ever added to this game. More imbalanced than the Warhound. Someone smoked crack when he came up with the damage numbers for that thing. Terran can scan and just waste everything ground based in a 15 range bubble in an instant.
That can be changed to be balanced, it's not a big concern right now in my opinion. What's worrying is the design of the unit, it will be a turtle-dream units for mech player, I don't even know how you are supposed to get through a ramp or a narrow path against this, tanks in the ground and Liberator in the air, nothing can come through. Unless the maps are drastically more open I am afraid game will become a turtle fest.
The Guardian Idea by IeZaeL was so much more interesting 
http://i.imgur.com/MCrfkzX.jpg
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On May 23 2015 22:15 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 21:47 xyzz wrote:
Liberator is quite possible the most imbalanced unit they've ever added to this game. More imbalanced than the Warhound. Someone smoked crack when he came up with the damage numbers for that thing. Terran can scan and just waste everything ground based in a 15 range bubble in an instant. That can be changed to be balanced, it's not a big concern right now in my opinion. What's worrying is the design of the unit, it will be a turtle-dream units for mech player, I don't even know how you are supposed to get through a ramp or a narrow path against this, tanks in the ground and Liberator in the air, nothing can come through. Unless the maps are drastically more open I am afraid game will become a turtle fest.
It's not a turtle fest when nobody can play ground vs. that unit. How could you possibly hope to trade evenly. Just two or three Liberators in a normal mech army will swing the DPS balance so wildly in the Terran's favour that everyone will go broke against it. It'll be mech vs. air every single time. Warpgates fixed, since gateway units can't be used.
Later on we'll probably have to witness some 'oh lol' moments when a dozen Liberators one shot Nexuses, Hatcheries etc.
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im not liking these models of unit (liberator and cyclone)
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On May 23 2015 21:47 xyzz wrote:
I don't even know how you are supposed to get through a ramp or a narrow path against this, tanks in the ground and Liberator in the air, nothing can come through.
blink, cliff-walk, warp prisms, medivac drops, shades, invincible nydus worms and air units in general to name a few. unfortunately sc2 has a ton of units that don't care about the terrain.
alternatively: you stay the fuck away from that ramp and punish your opponent for overdefending a certain location, either by outexpanding them or attacking another location.
in bw you could not get up a ramp defended by 5 tanks either. at least not without ridiculous losses. but you did not have to.
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On May 23 2015 22:19 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 22:15 Vanadiel wrote:On May 23 2015 21:47 xyzz wrote:
Liberator is quite possible the most imbalanced unit they've ever added to this game. More imbalanced than the Warhound. Someone smoked crack when he came up with the damage numbers for that thing. Terran can scan and just waste everything ground based in a 15 range bubble in an instant. That can be changed to be balanced, it's not a big concern right now in my opinion. What's worrying is the design of the unit, it will be a turtle-dream units for mech player, I don't even know how you are supposed to get through a ramp or a narrow path against this, tanks in the ground and Liberator in the air, nothing can come through. Unless the maps are drastically more open I am afraid game will become a turtle fest. It's not a turtle fest when nobody can play ground vs. that unit. How could you possibly even hope to trade evenly. Even two or three Liberators in a normal mech army will swing the DPS balance so wildly in the Terran's favour that everyone will go broke against it. It'll be mech vs. air every single time.
Well, for ZvT:
zerg full air army is already very bad even with a 12k bank vs mech so that's not an option. The only possible composition will be hydra lurker viper, lots of static D and wait until terrans moves out (which he won't do before a long time). Massive switch to muta will no longer be an option and as thor will not be needed anymore, it will allows terran to go safely full liberator/tank without having to worry about if zerg is opening muta or Roach.
TvT... bio is dead.
PvT : Should be okay, between immortal, disruptor, carrier and storm, with warp prism harass, they should have some option against mech.
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On May 23 2015 22:23 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 21:47 xyzz wrote:
I don't even know how you are supposed to get through a ramp or a narrow path against this, tanks in the ground and Liberator in the air, nothing can come through. blink, cliff-walk, warp prisms, medivac drops, shades, invincible nydus worms and air units in general to name a few. unfortunately sc2 has a ton of units that don't care about the terrain. alternatively: you stay the fuck away from that ramp and punish your opponent for overdefending a certain location, either by outexpanding them or attacking another location. in bw you could not get up a ramp defended by 5 tanks either. at least not without ridiculous losses. but you did not have to.
Pure terran bias.
The big difference of that units is that they don't have 75DPS in 15 range each one ofr 150/150/2, and most of them don't even attack air. And even if you get units that can attack, they will die in 1-2 shots from liberators. And liberators shot very fast for the damage they deal (at the same speed than a stalker I think).
A liberator has the same attack than 7-8 stimmed marines at 15 range. It will 2 shot almost all ground units except lategame ones (Thor, Colossus, Ultra), which have no to poor AA capabilities and usually need support to work.
Raw data indicates that in an engagement, a Liberator can take at least 3 stalkers easily, 1v1. Add MMMM to the recipe and you can't simply approach with any unit. Blinking won't work since even without support, Liberators themselves can beat stalkers 1v1 and 1v2, not even considering range.
Colossus, Warp prisms, Medivac drops and Adepts and Nydus have no possibility to get into a MMMM + Liberator army, and what's more, they don't shoot up.
Most of the things you can use is hardcountered by either Liberators or bio, making Liberators the perfect complement in many matchups since they add the DPS of 8 marines in 2 supply. What's more, it is placed at the same level of tech than banshees. So Terrans are just going to YOLO on a Liberator tactic, sniping queens in 2 shots and killing drones at double speed than banshees in 15 range for only 50 more gas .
Let's take a look at units you can use to counter Liberators:
Shit counters:
- Hydralisks (1 shot by Liberators and wrecked by MMMM)
- Stalkers (2 shot by Liberators and wrecked by MMMM),
- Mutalisks (hardcountered by Liberator AA, Marines, Mines and Thors),
- Phoenixes (hardcountered by Liberator AA, Marines, Mines, Ghost EMP and Thors)
- VoidRays (hardcountered by Marines, Mines, Ghost EMP and Vikings because of speed)
- Tempest (hardcountered by Raven PDD, zero combat efficiency, slower than Liberators. Liberators can just move out without being touched since they are faster!
- Carrier (hardcountered by Liberator AA [interceptors], marines, mines, Ghost EMP)
- Queens (2 shot by Liberators, shit vs Bio or almost every unit that can shot Queens back)
"Viable" counters:
- Corruptor. Tanky, high armor, will resist Marines and Liberator AA. But they are slow, and short ranged. Liberators can just move out without being touched since they are faster! However, Viking/Liberator/Raven will simply destroy any air compo the Zerg can throw at them
- Vipers . With double parasitic bomb, Zerg could snipe Liberators that are clumped. However with 15 Range and being static Terran has an easy time pre-spliting, and Parasitic bomb range is shorter (10) so it is predictacble to be expecting Vipers flanking.
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actually its kind of embarrassing
TL held its own contest for the terran unit with some simply amazing and real progressiv ideas and all blizzard comes up with is a rehashed version of the valkyrie with stats so absurd that it real doesn't need any testing.
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Does anyone know what the opponent sees when a Liberator goes into AG mode? A dot, a whole big target, or nothing?
I really wish that TL could just instantly and permanently ban anyone for discussing race vs. race balance outside of a single toxic sink of a thread.
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I think the Liberator is supposed to:
1) Put a stop to Mass Raven shenanigans in TvT.
2) Put a stop to never ending Tank Wars.
3) Be able to counter Mass Carriers that many Terrans have complained about in LotV.
4) Be able to counter Mass Mutas, in a more secure and cost efficient way. Allowing for more strats from Terran to come to fruition other than: Neverending aggression so Mass Muta never happen or have an entire Mech army designed to kill Mutalisks (Not Siege Tank focused.)
5) Put an end to TvP death balls from Protoss and is an answer for lategame TvP. Protoss will have to divide their army up in chunks and attack multiple fronts, since a singular attack would be completely shut down, simply by 3 of these Liberators targeting a dedicated area.
6) I think they're still stuck in the past and want to put an end to mass burrowed Swarm Hosts in an area. (Possible buff to Swarm Host in future.)
Obviously I don't expect the right tweaking right from the start and I do think it puts even more identity crisis on the Thor, something that might be fixed in a later patch to make it something other than anti air focused.
But I think it's supposed to 'liberate' Terran.
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On May 23 2015 23:40 ejozl wrote:
I think the Liberator is supposed to:
1) Put a stop to Mass Raven shenanigans in TvT.
2) Put a stop to never ending Tank Wars.
3) Be able to counter Mass Carriers that many Terrans have complained about in LotV.
4) Be able to counter Mass Mutas, in a more secure and cost efficient way. Allowing for more strats from Terran to come to fruition other than: Neverending aggression so Mass Muta never happen or have an entire Mech army designed to kill Mutalisks (Not Siege Tank focused.)
5) Put an end to TvP death balls from Protoss and is an answer for lategame TvP. Protoss will have to divide their army up in chunks and attack multiple fronts, since a singular attack would be completely shut down, simply by 3 of these Liberators targeting a dedicated area.
6) I think they're still stuck in the past and want to put an end to mass burrowed Swarm Hosts in an area. (Possible buff to Swarm Host in future.)
Obviously I don't expect the right tweaking right from the start and I do think it puts even more identity crisis on the Thor, something that might be fixed in a later patch to make it something other than anti air focused.
But I think it's supposed to 'liberate' Terran.
Unfortunely you're wrong. The TL users, experts in talking about ANYTHING DESIGN, already said that the unit sucks.
As I said elsewhere, we should join them to play Grey Goo or Starbow.
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for what it does, I think the liberator has to be 3 supply and need tech lab.... reactored 2 supply liberator will just break the game with it's AA splash and siege range with stupid DPS, even the cyclone is 3 supply....
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On May 23 2015 23:40 ejozl wrote:
I think the Liberator is supposed to:
1) Put a stop to Mass Raven shenanigans in TvT.
2) Put a stop to never ending Tank Wars.
3) Be able to counter Mass Carriers that many Terrans have complained about in LotV.
4) Be able to counter Mass Mutas, in a more secure and cost efficient way. Allowing for more strats from Terran to come to fruition other than: Neverending aggression so Mass Muta never happen or have an entire Mech army designed to kill Mutalisks (Not Siege Tank focused.)
5) Put an end to TvP death balls from Protoss and is an answer for lategame TvP. Protoss will have to divide their army up in chunks and attack multiple fronts, since a singular attack would be completely shut down, simply by 3 of these Liberators targeting a dedicated area.
6) I think they're still stuck in the past and want to put an end to mass burrowed Swarm Hosts in an area. (Possible buff to Swarm Host in future.)
Obviously I don't expect the right tweaking right from the start and I do think it puts even more identity crisis on the Thor, something that might be fixed in a later patch to make it something other than anti air focused.
But I think it's supposed to 'liberate' Terran.
That is okay, specially because in the AntiAir department, the Liberator seems very balanced and the design is interesting, it's a micro friendly unit to deal with problematic air masses.
But as an Antiground, the stats are stupidly broken. Give other races a counter to 15 Range 75 DPS unit at the same price/tech level and supply cost. Because if not, MMMM + Liberator is impossible to win against. If a race acumulates a ton of supply efficient, cheap, replaceable units while others don't, there is going to be problems.
Liberators are even more efficient supply-wise than MMMM vs ground units.
150/150/2, 75DPS 15 range, 2 shot most ground units and same shooting speed than them. Mate, just basic maths.
No sense.
Fun to see that Mech is starting to bank extreme range/siege units that have a very complicated counterplay.
Flying Siege Tank, Cyclone, Liberator... Fun point, the Siege function of Liberator overlaps a lot.
Having a "Valkirye 2.0" with micro possibilities and some extra mechanic is okay, but please, think of the extra mechanic.
I think that if they wanted to buff mech/ terran antiground, there was very obvious ways before introducing a 100 damage sniper that shoots as fast as a stalker.
-Reducing banshee supply to 2 and increasing their speed/acceleration and microability.
- Buffin Vikings in ground mode.
- Nerf ravens to 3 supply.
- Introduce the liberator Antiground mechanic after this changes, with the same cost of Cylcones.
EDIT: The Terran bias is strarting to become strong after I read all this forum page.
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On May 23 2015 23:40 ejozl wrote:
I think the Liberator is supposed to:
1) Put a stop to Mass Raven shenanigans in TvT.
2) Put a stop to never ending Tank Wars.
3) Be able to counter Mass Carriers that many Terrans have complained about in LotV.
4) Be able to counter Mass Mutas, in a more secure and cost efficient way. Allowing for more strats from Terran to come to fruition other than: Neverending aggression so Mass Muta never happen or have an entire Mech army designed to kill Mutalisks (Not Siege Tank focused.)
5) Put an end to TvP death balls from Protoss and is an answer for lategame TvP. Protoss will have to divide their army up in chunks and attack multiple fronts, since a singular attack would be completely shut down, simply by 3 of these Liberators targeting a dedicated area.
6) I think they're still stuck in the past and want to put an end to mass burrowed Swarm Hosts in an area. (Possible buff to Swarm Host in future.)
Obviously I don't expect the right tweaking right from the start and I do think it puts even more identity crisis on the Thor, something that might be fixed in a later patch to make it something other than anti air focused.
But I think it's supposed to 'liberate' Terran.
But the thing is majority of stuff you have said aren't even a problem in LOTV.
1) I have yet to see mass Ravens in the LOTV.
2) Tank wars have changed a lot since the LOTV where they are able to be picked by the Medivac. Haven't seen those Tank lines like before where both sides won't dare to attack. Liberator with the current design won't end the neverending Tank wars, it will end Siege Tanks and it will end them for good in TvT.
3) Mass Carriers were the problem before people realized that massing Cyclones and Widow Mines handled them decently while being a lot cheaper than Carriers themselves. I know that Morrow was complaining about mass Carriers and then desrow told him "try Cyclones and Widow Mines", and Morrow was like "wow, this actually works".
4) Uh...
5) This might be the valid reasoning but it is still a bad way to handle things. It doesn't address the death ball at all, as it doesn't have splash damage.
6) Swarm Hosts aren't even using burrow anymore as they removed the burrow movement of that unit and they can spawn Locusts even unburrowed now. That said, they still counter flying Locusts as few Liberators will kill all of the Locusts before they land. They might be concerned about mass Lurkers play but Siege Tanks and Cyclones are already there to snipe Lurkers I don't see the reason why they should add another Siege Unit that is also stronger than both of the previous ones...
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How does the speed compare to mutas? And what's the range? Is it like the phoenix, that out range and is faster?
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On May 24 2015 00:08 Cascade wrote:
How does the speed compare to mutas? And what's the range? Is it like the phoenix, that out range and is faster?
Nah, it is slower than Mutas(I think) but still pretty fast, and has 5 range, 2x7 damage with splash.
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On May 24 2015 00:08 Cascade wrote:
How does the speed compare to mutas? And what's the range? Is it like the phoenix, that out range and is faster?
Depending on the timescale (LotV or HotS) it is as fast as Muta or moves at Stim speed.
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Nobody builds mutas in lotv? If people have stopped making the most entertaining/fun zerg unit then we've got problems.
I still think siege tanks need a huge buff. Something big, like a range buff or 2 supply cost. Maybe nerf other things to compensate, but tanks are essential for an entertaining game. These new units are just superficial garbage and should be nerfed into oblivion so nobody ever uses them but they can still sell the expansion. Like the Tempest and now the Ravager.
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You know what is embarrassing? The quality of posting in this thread. We have the people claiming the new unit is "more broken than the warhound" without the unit actually being patched in yet; we have the standard my race is weaker than your race toxic bs; we have people claiming the new unit model is ugly or too much resemble the valkyrie (are we looking at the same unit? seriously?).
Wait until some games are played before we start making these comment. From what i see half of these commentators bashing the unit don't even know how the unit works. In fact, the unit isn't even in the game yet, no one knows exactly how it works. What the opponent sees when the unit is targeting a specific location, how fast can you retarget, how fast are the transformations, what unit composition will this work with? These are all important questions that needs answers before any cogent arguments can be made.
If theres something blatantly wrong with it, blizzard will change it.They're aware of what are the implications of such a unit, far more than most of our unit design experts.
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EPT
