Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Pantheon remains a top-tier pick in more skilled games. We've decreased some of his early-game damage as it's more impactful in higher-skill ranked games. Also, a bugfix
Proceed to leave lv 1 damage unchanged, and only nerf the base scaling, lv 3 Q does 10 less damage lmao. Rito logic at its finest here, even if its the wrong patch notes can't believe I missed this gem.
Kog buff is useless. But Lulu buff might bring him back Reddit believes Warwick needs bug fixes, not more buffs.
No Pantheon nerf, what is this. Champ is beyond broken right now, you win every match up and also outroam.
The most meaningless patch I ever remembered. Regarding the pantheon, I am not sure that the Q damage is the issue, I mean he doesnt have any other source of damage, so 1 strong damage ability should be fine and he will probably be useless without it, however, the rest of his kit is ...not even overpowered, just too useful. In every composition, vs every composition, in every situation, with one, few or all 5-10 people there, pantheon can extract close to 100% effectiveness from his kit while his kit being very effective. Nerfing his numbers will just move him from god to nulity, something from his kit gotta give imo
On October 23 2019 18:36 evilfatsh1t wrote: a longer cd on his q-tap would be good imo
I've always thought that many many issues that riot had with champions hard and impossible to balance would have been easily fixed with just cooldowns adjustments. Is an ability too strong? too obnoxious? too akali invisibility-invulnerability-ineverything shroud? just make it on 20-30-40-50 sec cooldown and we are good to go. However, riot really wants league to be a non stop throwing abilities fiesta and probably this is one of the main things that makes the masses enjoy the game so much though
I like the idea of strong abilities being given long CD. But you said it, the game has become balanced around low CD and exploiting the fact that being able to use a medium power ability twice in an engage >>> high power ability once. That's why Akali's triple Q is so insanely scary, a single Q doesn't do that much damage, it's the conditional zero CD part of it that we all hate. Playing around CD is a skill that good players use to their advantage, but lots of meta champions have reset abilities or conditonal kits that let them spam everything for a short while.
Champs that come to mind are Akali, Aatrox, Spear of Shojin abusers, Ryze, Vlad.
People love URF mode. I've come to view LoL more as a fighting game than a strategic game lately, while Dota seems more strategic in nature? I don't actually know if Dota is more strategic than fighting based, or if it's a good mix of both, I do know it's more strategy based. The larger map partly has to do with this.
On October 23 2019 19:37 Uldridge wrote: People love URF mode. I've come to view LoL more as a fighting game than a strategic game lately, while Dota seems more strategic in nature? I don't actually know if Dota is more strategic than fighting based, or if it's a good mix of both, I do know it's more strategy based. The larger map partly has to do with this.
dota is way more strategic at the cost of there being less chance of "mechanical outplays" in fights, and the reward for outplays being somewhat lower than lol. for players who are used to throwing skills every 5 seconds, dodging skillshots and seeing characters get deleted, dota is probably a bit too slow and frustrating even. the fights for example take forever to finish compared to lol
On October 23 2019 19:37 Uldridge wrote: People love URF mode. I've come to view LoL more as a fighting game than a strategic game lately, while Dota seems more strategic in nature? I don't actually know if Dota is more strategic than fighting based, or if it's a good mix of both, I do know it's more strategy based. The larger map partly has to do with this.
There was an article few years ago how a scripter in league could be silver elo and reach master for sure and sometimes even challenger with a script that lands and dodges skillshots. 0 knowledge about the game, just as the guy above mentioned, fighting abilities. Meanwhile in dota with similar scripts a person could advance approximately a tier, lets say from silver to gold, because the game is balanced around strategy, game knowledge, map movements etc. However, people perceive strategy as hard and boring, but fighting and urf as easy, fun and interesting, thats why League has way way bigger player base, while dota is way more competitive and competitively balanced
Eh, I don't think you can hit Grandmaster (old Masters) with only a dodge script anymore. But you can certainly make it to mid/high diamond, since the game is balanced a lot around skillshots and mechanical ability. Wouldn't say it's a bad thing, it makes pro play super exciting when TheShy makes his opponent look like a boosted animal. Big difference between the game now and back in S2/3/4 is that all pros have great mechanics (remember how Hai got recycled solely for 'shotcalling'?), but even today you can still see the gap between some people, allows for an extra dimension to the game that I don't think Dota entirely has (might be wrong though, was just my experience when trying the game out).
On October 23 2019 18:36 evilfatsh1t wrote: a longer cd on his q-tap would be good imo
No. I think you increase his E CD if anything.
He already does basically no damage.
But he only uses E once per fight anyway. I would say, make E vulnerable either to abilities or to basic shots or at least have a number of things it can block, like the old passive 2-3 autos or turrets, it could translate to 3 things, maybe 4 when empowered, the number will be adjusted, but the idea is important
On October 24 2019 00:19 DarkCore wrote: Eh, I don't think you can hit Grandmaster (old Masters) with only a dodge script anymore. But you can certainly make it to mid/high diamond, since the game is balanced a lot around skillshots and mechanical ability. Wouldn't say it's a bad thing, it makes pro play super exciting when TheShy makes his opponent look like a boosted animal. Big difference between the game now and back in S2/3/4 is that all pros have great mechanics (remember how Hai got recycled solely for 'shotcalling'?), but even today you can still see the gap between some people, allows for an extra dimension to the game that I don't think Dota entirely has (might be wrong though, was just my experience when trying the game out).
I actually think both strategic and mechanical skill expression has been decreased at the pro level. Things like less wards, turret plates, rift herald, and elder dragon have made the game's progression much more formulaic. Similarly, the huge number of spammy champs makes outplays less likely for exactly the reason you stated earlier (1 big skillshot is worse than 2 small ones). Also the move of mages to botlane has gutted twitchy skill expression from what was previously the most twitchy role, as well as the introduction of a guy like Jihn, who is an ADC made for people with fat fingers.
On October 23 2019 18:36 evilfatsh1t wrote: a longer cd on his q-tap would be good imo
No. I think you increase his E CD if anything.
He already does basically no damage.
But he only uses E once per fight anyway. I would say, make E vulnerable either to abilities or to basic shots or at least have a number of things it can block, like the old passive 2-3 autos or turrets, it could translate to 3 things, maybe 4 when empowered, the number will be adjusted, but the idea is important
Alternatively; make it only block a percentage of damage unless you're empowering it. I'd like that better.
I still feel like his damage is too low. I'd trade a lot of Es defensive power to get his old AD Caster / assassin feel back. New pantheon feels like the Volkswagen New Beetle compared to the original Beetle. I know he's better at everything, more powerful, more efficient, more modern, more.... Everything. But he's just not the same. If that makes sense.
On October 23 2019 18:36 evilfatsh1t wrote: a longer cd on his q-tap would be good imo
No. I think you increase his E CD if anything.
He already does basically no damage.
But he only uses E once per fight anyway. I would say, make E vulnerable either to abilities or to basic shots or at least have a number of things it can block, like the old passive 2-3 autos or turrets, it could translate to 3 things, maybe 4 when empowered, the number will be adjusted, but the idea is important
Alternatively; make it only block a percentage of damage unless you're empowering it. I'd like that better.
I still feel like his damage is too low. I'd trade a lot of Es defensive power to get his old AD Caster / assassin feel back. New pantheon feels like the Volkswagen New Beetle compared to the original Beetle. I know he's better at everything, more powerful, more efficient, more modern, more.... Everything. But he's just not the same. If that makes sense.
yeah I like that idea too and I also liked the old panth more, he was my main main and the last from a row of mains which riot reworked and after I saw the rework, I thought that I would actually like the new panth and that he is so much like the old panth, but no matter how much I tried, I never managed to like the new version and I had to concede and renew my entire mains roster.
Yeah, I think it's up 12% over live. Makes sense, because a 30s spawn rate reduction is a reduction of 20%; 1/0.8 = 1.25, or 25% more camp uptime. Then when you add on the XP nerfs from before it should be like 18% more XP. And I'm not sure if you can physically clear everything at full speed with these spawn times with all junglers, so 12% is likely legit from testing.
On October 25 2019 01:58 iCanada wrote: The ranked reward skin this year is just a cloned justicar Aatrox? The 750 to skin? Lol.
Haven't seen it can someone post a link :D
Also, still seems that absorbing waves will still be OP for junglers. It honestly sucks when their jungler gets to absorb a mid-wave and you don't and they're just infinitely stronger in the early game for it.
On October 25 2019 01:58 iCanada wrote: The ranked reward skin this year is just a cloned justicar Aatrox? The 750 to skin? Lol.
Haven't seen it can someone post a link :D
Also, still seems that absorbing waves will still be OP for junglers. It honestly sucks when their jungler gets to absorb a mid-wave and you don't and they're just infinitely stronger in the early game for it.
I swear the way jungle item gives extra XP to its owners, it should negate 3/4 of the minions xp too
They unfortunately look really similar. Models are actually different, but having essentially the same color scheme basically kills it as a unique victorious skin look.
On October 25 2019 01:58 iCanada wrote: The ranked reward skin this year is just a cloned justicar Aatrox? The 750 to skin? Lol.
Haven't seen it can someone post a link :D
Also, still seems that absorbing waves will still be OP for junglers. It honestly sucks when their jungler gets to absorb a mid-wave and you don't and they're just infinitely stronger in the early game for it.
I swear the way jungle item gives extra XP to its owners, it should negate 3/4 of the minions xp too
I agree. Last hitting extra gold should be a big enough advantage for them. THe double whammy xp boost sucks for you as well when you're both 1/0/1 but they're level 6 and you're not.
I have no idea what just happend in that clip. Randomly spawning ghosts, delayed root and a lanewide nuke ult?
yeah me too, but I think she gathers some kind of souls, she can akali shroud herself and lucian and one of the spells is lane wide:-)
Checked it again. Seem like Lucian got a shield when she ultimated (I assume the lane wide nuke) so it's probably damage if it hit enemies shield if it hit allies. Maybe her passive is she shields allies if she hit them with her offensive abilities scaling with ghouls/souls collected.
I’m curious because I’m interested in playing a ranged ad support, but I’m also curious how they will make her strong, but bad as a core. Obviously she’ll have to have some sort of limiting passive like Pyke, but what will that look like.
On October 29 2019 01:19 Slusher wrote: I’m curious because I’m interested in playing a ranged ad support, but I’m also curious how they will make her strong, but bad as a core. Obviously she’ll have to have some sort of limiting passive like Pyke, but what will that look like.
My guess is she'll have absolutely horrendous base AS in the clip I dont think she autos a single time. Fits with the gigantic rifle too.
On October 29 2019 01:19 Slusher wrote: I’m curious because I’m interested in playing a ranged ad support, but I’m also curious how they will make her strong, but bad as a core. Obviously she’ll have to have some sort of limiting passive like Pyke, but what will that look like.
I would guess that her passive would reduce damage dealt to enemy champions by auto-attacks by like 20% or something, with a time-gated passive that enables full damage to an enemy?
Her ulti is basically KotL blast though. They'll have to be very, very careful with the tuning on that, because it looks completely undodgeable between the width and the range.
On October 29 2019 01:19 Slusher wrote: I’m curious because I’m interested in playing a ranged ad support, but I’m also curious how they will make her strong, but bad as a core. Obviously she’ll have to have some sort of limiting passive like Pyke, but what will that look like.
I would guess that her passive would reduce damage dealt to enemy champions by auto-attacks by like 20% or something, with a time-gated passive that enables full damage to an enemy?
Her ulti is basically KotL blast though. They'll have to be very, very careful with the tuning on that, because it looks completely undodgeable between the width and the range.
It looks like there's a beam through the center of her ultimate, I think it's the only part of it that does damage. Since Lucian got a shield when she used it I guess all allies within the field get one.
I wonder if there's a guideline for champion designers at Riot that tells them to randomly add shields to new champion kits so there is stuff to remove if (when) the champ turns out to be overpowered.
I really want to be incentivized to auto people, like I hear adc support and I think Ashe but good, when I watch that clip it looks cool, but it makes me think she’s an enchanter who scales off ad, which could be fun but I wouldn’t call it a new archetype.
As an aside, them adding a “high ad, low hp” support item option might have potential for Ashe or varus support
On October 29 2019 05:41 Slusher wrote: I really want to be incentivized to auto people, like I hear adc support and I think Ashe but good, when I watch that clip it looks cool, but it makes me think she’s an enchanter who scales off ad, which could be fun but I wouldn’t call it a new archetype.
As an aside, them adding a “high ad, low hp” support item option might have potential for Ashe or varus support
but is really the lack of proper ad support item the reason for these champions not to be played as supports? I doubt that
yes actually, the fact that general support items have ap(twin shadows) of tank stats(Zekes, redemption) really limits what Is good in the role, like if brand’s only option Was ancient coin into save up for a dcap he would suck at support also. Ashe and varus both bring a lot the same qualities as other mage supports but they have to open with a bad item and their mana regen options are tear and an item that requires autoing minions.
Pyke pretty much had to be given double gold to incentivize building ad damage
On October 29 2019 01:19 Slusher wrote: I’m curious because I’m interested in playing a ranged ad support, but I’m also curious how they will make her strong, but bad as a core. Obviously she’ll have to have some sort of limiting passive like Pyke, but what will that look like.
I would guess that her passive would reduce damage dealt to enemy champions by auto-attacks by like 20% or something, with a time-gated passive that enables full damage to an enemy?
Her ulti is basically KotL blast though. They'll have to be very, very careful with the tuning on that, because it looks completely undodgeable between the width and the range.
It looks like there's a beam through the center of her ultimate, I think it's the only part of it that does damage. Since Lucian got a shield when she used it I guess all allies within the field get one.
You're correct on that front.
I stand by my statement that the range is nuts. It's a global nuke/shield. If it does anywhere close to what a Lux RW combo does for either damage or shielding it's going to be pretty broken.
Her E also seems kinda busted as well, as it's a teamwide akali shroud.
Hoooold on her ultimate is actually global and nearly instaneous? In other words 100% P/B in pro play.
Her E looks pretty cool love the idea of making it hard to guess which champ is which by making them all look the same. Teamwide Neeko passive kinda. I can already see the YouTube videos, "Lets jump the backline!.... Hi it's me 6k HP stoneplate Sion!"
well soraka and karthus are also globals that cannot miss but depending on the numbers it might not be that bad, however, the E looks quite scary as it is, without numbers on it
On October 30 2019 03:55 M2 wrote: well soraka and karthus are also globals that cannot miss but depending on the numbers it might not be that bad, however, the E looks quite scary as it is, without numbers on it
But but but... Senna undoubtly got the new champ so OP syndrome. Her ultimate can be used both offensively and defensively which is a pretty big boon.
she is exactly the kind of champ ive been wanting to see in lol. more like a champ youd see in dota. but she is broken as fuck by the looks of it. no counterplay on e, a longer range/bigger aoe lucian q, aoe root and global ulti. might be one of the few champs i actually get on release lel
On October 30 2019 12:13 evilfatsh1t wrote: she is exactly the kind of champ ive been wanting to see in lol. more like a champ youd see in dota. but she is broken as fuck by the looks of it. no counterplay on e, a longer range/bigger aoe lucian q, aoe root and global ulti. might be one of the few champs i actually get on release lel
Damn, I expected broken, but her kit looks ludicrous. Untargetable E where they can run around you and engage whenever they feel it? A super wide global ultimate? What is this madness lol, where is the counter play???
They stop being untargetable once you're near them no? This is bad mostly for high range point and clickers like Cait, the rest shouldn't worry too much.
I think the biggest issue wont be neither the invisibility nor the untargetability, even though they will probably be quite unfun and issues on their own, the biggest issue will be when champions can hide there in a teamfight and then people wont be able to chase and recognize who is who within the limits of fights that last for few seconds nowadays
She looks to be like Akali, once pros show how she can be abused, they'll start removing parts of her kit to try and tone her down, but it will take a whole year to get her in a decent spot since there's no single ability you can point to being the main problem. I'm beginning to wonder if this is a new strat by Riot to keep the game exciting, release clearly overloaded champs and then slowly butcher them while the next batch of ridiculous kits come out.
On October 31 2019 02:21 DarkCore wrote: She looks to be like Akali, once pros show how she can be abused, they'll start removing parts of her kit to try and tone her down, but it will take a whole year to get her in a decent spot since there's no single ability you can point to being the main problem. I'm beginning to wonder if this is a new strat by Riot to keep the game exciting, release clearly overloaded champs and then slowly butcher them while the next batch of ridiculous kits come out.
I would assume that their model is to give the designers full freedom to come up with something new and exciting without any consideration about balance, counterplay etc., with the idea these things to be adjusted later on. I mean if they suppress their creative with restrictions like balance and counterplay, they probably wont be able to come up with anything interesting and league is about new fun stuff and shit, its not like dota - oriented towards steady states and balance
On November 01 2019 06:38 DarkCore wrote: How busted? Like enemy-cant-lane busted, or you actually have to understand her?
There's a lot of things. Dont know how much comes down to my premade and I being much MMR on live or whatever, but the games felt so easy.
All her numbers honestly just feel too high and she can stack souls way way way too fast. She can actually start to outrage towers without it being a Vandiril video.
She can build whatever the hell she wants and just rely on base numbers + soul scaling. The suggested items (lethality) feel like a huge bait while the actual support items like Redemption/Censer are deceptively strong, she doesn't really need AD. Working towards Redemption gives her the mana and a bit of bulk to do her dank trades relentless and trading are much better on Senna because it gives her soul stacks.
The bonus gold she get from her passive too is lowkey OP as it can let you hit some item break points faster than the other support even in a 0-0 lane.
She doesn't really feel unfair or toxic. Just too high numbers for what she can do. Her ultimate is the second coolest ultimate in the game (Urgot still got #1) and pretty strong in teamfights.
Be prepared to take a lot of towershots when you start playing her because grabbing souls give you the Lee Sin syndrome. :D
EPT
Her ultimate can be used both offensively and defensively which is a pretty big boon.
