EPT[Patch 6.14] What is Ryze General Discussion - Page 5
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On July 16 2016 06:24 Alaric wrote: Vi isn't supposed to be a tank like Poppy. In the midgame she goes in and kills somebody, then hopefully the fight is won. Otherwise she can keep brawling while waiting for Q cd to catch up to stragglers if her HP are high enough. In the late game she builds tankier and goes in so her team can blow up her target, not to kill it herself. Once said target's dead, her fully charged Q -> auto -> E combo still deals decent damage to squishies, and her W passive helps take down tanks (although she can't do it herself for lack of sustain), and her pattern's usually go in -> team blows up something while Vi lives -> run out of the fight waiting for passive and Q to come back -> go back in, ideally interrupting a dash/locking someone down. You can't ask her to 100-0 a squishy late in the game the same way you can't ask Xin Zhao or Irelia to do it (in LCS because teams snowball the game rarely go to the 4+ items on both sides state so Irelia's damage stays relevant, but she typically struggles against mobile marksmen when she can't 100-0 them anymore). Fights will be full-on 5v5 and there shouldn't be surprise attacks with the vision game and all players expecting these fights anyway. So exhaust, shields, heals, etc. will be blown since Vi's usually going for the main target, while her supports wouldn't be in range of her most of the time and that'd only expose your own squishies to a counter-dive that you'd lose either way. She doesn't have a way out, and doesn't have the damage from LB or Zed. And later in the game natural HP/armour growth outdoes a 2 (or even sometimes 3) offensive items build. Then, on top of that, add that GA is a super popular item atm, and that Vi as well as the comps she thrives in are hard-countered by GA (because she needs a viable target to go in or she's utterly useless), and even if she were buffed or what have you she wouldn't be played atm. TLDR She's one directional skirmisher without the durability to get out unless she doesn't have the damage to actually do her job. Yeah, that sounds pretty bad. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
rengar too vi suffers because she's essentially an engaging champ who needs to build damage and at the same time is easily kited so she works best in pick comps where you can abuse the engage and burst in gank situations irelia doesn't have trouble one shotting squishies lategame its just lategame the team is there to protect the adc most of the time you're acting like marksmen get tankier later lol | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 16 2016 06:01 Kinie wrote: It's not just more gold, it's needing 7-8 item slots to be an actual endgame threat compared to any other "hard engage" champ who can still be a threat with max items. Ideally, Vi wants Triforce, BC, Frozen Mallet, Randuins, Thornmail, GA, and boots of some kind if she's going to be someone who goes in and blows up an ADC. If Riot ever wants to buff Vi in a meaningful way, then either have her passive go to a lower CD past level 11, or increase the scaling on the %HP shield she gets after hitting an enemy with a skill. Right now it's just 10% of her max HP is turned into a shield for 3s. If it scaled (say, from 7-25%) of max HP as a shield for 3s on a (at least) 8s CD then she could stick to people longer and not get blown up as fast as she does right now. Maybe making it so her ult hits period, no matter what, could work. Screw Zhonyas, Kalista pokeball, Tahmn Kench's devourer, Bard ulti, when I hit R on someone you're getting smash and grabbed. Seeing her armor break W passive scaling into late game could also work, dunno how the numbers would work on it though. Vi top lane is absolute garbage, btw. 0 wave clear unless you max E first, and then you have 0 kill pressure in lane because E does shit damage unless you get AD, and your Q is on a million year CD at rank 1, when the game incentivizes you to go W max second to hit her mid-game power spike. Yea, well thats what I always thought they should do with Vi. Step 1: Build her around E. Give it lots of spammability. If they think midlane is a better place keep the ratio, if not, reduce the ratio and increase the base damage so she is kind of like a Jax/Irelia where you have 1 to 2 core damage items into tank. Step 2: I like the scaling on the passive. Step 3: Tenacity and MR/Armor for a period of time after her ult completes. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
vi is too binary and all in when she has a passive that's supposed to promote coming back into a fight if you could pressure someone with q and then use it to escape before the counter attack but not have to wait a million years go to back it would add a fun dynamic she'll still be garbage in competitive because squishy melee but yea you might say it rewards missing but vi loses so much damage and mobility if it misses that its way too punishing as it is imo it's not like she has any other way to catch someone if R is cd and she misses q so reducing the cd is fair | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 16 2016 06:01 Kinie wrote: It's not just more gold, it's needing 7-8 item slots to be an actual endgame threat compared to any other "hard engage" champ who can still be a threat with max items. Ideally, Vi wants Triforce, BC, Frozen Mallet, Randuins, Thornmail, GA, and boots of some kind if she's going to be someone who goes in and blows up an ADC. If Riot ever wants to buff Vi in a meaningful way, then either have her passive go to a lower CD past level 11, or increase the scaling on the %HP shield she gets after hitting an enemy with a skill. Right now it's just 10% of her max HP is turned into a shield for 3s. If it scaled (say, from 7-25%) of max HP as a shield for 3s on a (at least) 8s CD then she could stick to people longer and not get blown up as fast as she does right now. Maybe making it so her ult hits period, no matter what, could work. Screw Zhonyas, Kalista pokeball, Tahmn Kench's devourer, Bard ulti, when I hit R on someone you're getting smash and grabbed. Seeing her armor break W passive scaling into late game could also work, dunno how the numbers would work on it though. Vi top lane is absolute garbage, btw. 0 wave clear unless you max E first, and then you have 0 kill pressure in lane because E does shit damage unless you get AD, and your Q is on a million year CD at rank 1, when the game incentivizes you to go W max second to hit her mid-game power spike. It could also because your build is not good? Your set of items is kind of bad, you're double dipping on effects you probably don't need to and stacking defense against the champion you're supposedly killing first. You've got one speed up and two slows... as well as two items specifically good against AD's at different points in their gameplay (Thorn strong early, randuins strong late). Additionally you've got plain inefficient items in there. With the triforce speedup. F-Mallet is just a bunch of HP and some AD, you're not using it to help your team out because you're almost certainly way to far in for that to happen. Sterak's does the same thing but with a lot more oomph and a lot less cost. GA is almost actively bad on Vi. The split resistances is nice, but the revive passive is almost worthless since all your CD's are then down and they've moved away from you and their CD's might even be up again. Sterak's does the same thing (30% max HP heal effectively) on a 60 second CD instead of a 300 second CD. Without the downside of the stasis. And it increases your burst/damage. No resistances which isn't ideal, but HP isn't bad.. Your "reasonable options" on Vi are almost all hybrid, with the exception of Deadman's Plate or Randuin's Omen since their isn't really an armor/AD hybrid option . Every option is going to want some offensive quality. There is the obvious Triforce, but the less obvious Gauntlet. Black Cleaver has HP and AD. Maw of Malmortius has AD, MR, and a shield. Sterak's synergizes with Vi's high base AD and Sheen usage and also has HP and a shield. Titanic Hydra has a bonus burst active, scaling on-hit, and HP. Ok, FMallet has HP and AD but its main value is in its slow. Yet only three of these are in your ideal 8 item build. You could build Gauntlet, Steraks, Cleaver, Maw, Boots and have room left over for a pure offensive item. You could build triforce, Steraks, Cleaver, Maw, Randuins, and boots. You would have +1500 HP, +60 armor, +40 MR, with another 30% HP shield, a 350-400 HP magic shield, an AoE slow, with 158/187 bonus AD, and 57/114 extra damage on your sheen proc. In your 7 items you have 1700 HP, 115 bonus AD, an AoE slow, an on-hit slow, +45 MR, and +220 armor. You're trading a hell of damage in favor of defenses against the enemy champion you expect to die first. And then you hamstring your ability to do this by putting yourself in stasis instead of giving yourself a shield when things matter. As i see it, R,Auto,E on my build does about 1,500 damage(before runes/masteries which have the same effect on both), not including the extra armor pen. On yours it does 1,138 damage. Sure my Vi doesn't have as nearly as much armor as yours, but you don't need armor if the AD is dead/out of the fight, and i do this on an actually possible item allocation. If we look at 6 items you trade all that burst for 60 armor, 5 MR, -150 to 200* HP, and 4 seconds of free time for the enemy to walk away from you. If i swapped the Randuins for DMP you'd get another 100 burst damage on the AD. *counting the sterak's shield as equal to the GA proc and the Maw shield as equivalent to HP (as its reasonable to assume incoming magic damage) | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 16 2016 07:09 Slayer91 wrote: they should make q reduce cd by half if it misses like naut q does Naut Q only reduces CD if it hits terrain. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
i think vi could use a break on the mobility front | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 16 2016 07:20 Slayer91 wrote: yea but nauts hook is a vastly stronger spell and he's way tankier and has a similar ult but safer and way more cc i think vi could use a break on the mobility front Fair enough. I think Vi's main problem right now is more that there are so many defensive move blocks and strong timed deny abilities in the meta. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Vi's Q ends up on a decent cd, but that's also because out of the jungle you're going to have CDR on her (locket, warrior, etc.) Vi isn't supposed to 100-0 squishies late game, there's no use saying "she's bad because she has to build full offense to do that and then she dies" because it's not her role. Full-offense Nautilus with Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End did hilarious damage too before they nuked W several times and then put his damage into E, but that wasn't really viable because same thing, it wasn't his role. Also since a bunch of Irelia's damage comes from her W, yeah after she hits level 13 marksmen technically get tankier because they gain ~400 HP from levels alone from there, and non-supports with shields also start maxing them. Irelia can burst somebody through that Janna or Orianna shield in the midgame, but later on when there's 200+ additional HP in that shield it's harder to burst through. Granted, I haven't played her enough going full glass-cannon with Triforce -> Ghostblade because it doesn't work that well when people group super early, which was the case in my games, and she can certainly assassinate squishies for a lot longer going that route. ^ last time the meta shat on Vi, it included Alistar, Thresh, Tahm Kench, and a lot more Morgana than now. She also had a lower ult cd than now. It's not a question of "deny tools", there are a ton less of them right now. But Vi's not that effective until level 4-5 just because of that Q cd and she wants to rush 6 for her ganks anyway. She also got the Nocturne treatment on her ult cd so she can't gank as well and competitive is more about diving people who see it coming than actually ganking squishies (Vi works best when she can camp mid or has a bursty botlane, basically). She doesn't have enough presence or clear speed (she empties her mana super fast) compared to popular junglers, and she doesn't brawl well in the first few levels. She's ult- and somewhat flash-dependant, and she needs more farm than your usual champion (Rek'Sai gets tanky with almost nothing and still does enough damage to force a laner to back off, Vi has to take significant damage to do so usually), she has no sustain, she doesn't teamfight well, and she's useless in sieges, especially when behind. When people group up and "picks" means "dive their duo lane 5v3" she doesn't offer much more than a bunch of other picks. And GA exists so against here you only need to live 30 minutes and then she's in a rut. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
you goal is to 3 hit a carry. it's a little bit better if you aren't the only person engaging for your team. but if you don't build enough damage the enemy just ignores you. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Riven's super mobile so sticking to people isn't an issue at all, and every single one of her autos hit like a truck, Vi's literally the opposite. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
From a flavor standpoint she's cool; punky rocker-like chick who loves to beat people in the face with steampunk gloves and chase them down no matter where they go. From a numbers standpoint literally no one would play her when they could play Gragas, Hecarim, or Rek'Sai for a jungler who can build tanky and still be relevant in mid-late game with their items (Gragas gets damage reduction on the W and his barrel ulti to disengage or seperate a squishy from an enemy team, Hecarim gets minor HP gain on W and can just spam damage with Q while zooming around with E or R, Rek'Sai knockup, tunnel, and fury passive giving her HP gain). Bruisers just don't exist in the meta anymore because they can't deal enough burst before getting pulled off their target by a Braum, Thresh, Taric, Alistair, or Karma. Her kit - and numbers - are just too old and needs a bit of TLC to keep up with move speed meta right now. But you can probably say the same thing about another 30+ champions in League right now. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On July 16 2016 02:01 MooMooMugi wrote: Mistake twice in a row what are the chances hehe I guess Taric and Talayah start with the same character, Doa was guessing that might be the issue | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On July 16 2016 07:25 Goumindong wrote: Fair enough. I think Vi's main problem right now is more that there are so many defensive move blocks and strong timed deny abilities in the meta. she sucks even when they arent around though | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
I think that number is an overestimate though Vi sucks in teamfights even in non competitive play and even when ahead | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
More specifically, I think it's just a question of meta. Vi excels against ADC's like Ezreal and Tristana, but most people prefer less mobile higher-damage ADC's, so her unique strengths are kind of wasted. She's still doing reasonably well in solo queue, but she won't get back into pro play until super slippery dashy champions become meta again. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Now her best build is to go 0 tank and go for picks with 100-0 combos. Far to linear for pro play but it's aiight if you don't get behind on ladder. It's purely for fun though when you could just pick graves instead, do more damage be tankier and still be in it if you die once early. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On July 16 2016 22:38 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder if all the complaints about "mobility creep" and meming about "dashes" as a part of a champion's kit have led us today's meta where movespeed and movespeed slows are king. More specifically, I think it's just a question of meta. Vi excels against ADC's like Ezreal and Tristana, but most people prefer less mobile higher-damage ADC's, so her unique strengths are kind of wasted. She's still doing reasonably well in solo queue, but she won't get back into pro play until super slippery dashy champions become meta again. Vi good vs champions who can dodge her ult with their escape abilities. Sure thing buddy :^) | ||
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