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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On July 21 2016 06:48 kongoline wrote: no lane swaps means weaker laners wont be picked ever you will see even less variety in picks lol weaker lanes don't get picked anyway because lane swap is even more punishing.. unless you mean weak bot lane combos but they can farm way better than weak melee solo lanes | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On July 21 2016 06:18 cLutZ wrote: Does anyone remember what patch Rammus top was doing well recently? And what changes made it less so? I'm bored of normal tops and might try it out if it wasn't too eviscerated. Otherwise I'll try something else that can induce rage. They nerfed his ult CD massively. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Eww. On July 21 2016 06:48 kongoline wrote: no lane swaps means weaker laners wont be picked ever you will see even less variety in picks lol See, its the opposite. If laneswaps are really bad it opens up the ability for Riot to give bad laning champions the ability to make up for whatever sacrifice your team makes, whether it is basically a constant jungle presence toplane or an actual laneswap. The problem with the modern laneswap is that it becomes pretty much an even trade, or almost an even trade barring massive incompetence by one side, thus there is no champion that is balanced around being behind, because that then becomes OP with a laneswap. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
an underfed darius or irelia say, is kinda shitty compared or an underfed maokai or malphite or something | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 21 2016 07:22 Slayer91 wrote: thats not true at all, all full tanks are much better while behind than bruisers because they have value even if they don't survive very long and survive longer at that an underfed darius or irelia say, is kinda shitty compared or an underfed maokai or malphite or something First, you are basically describing different roles and how they work. You should be comparing earlygame tanks to lategame tanks and earlygame bruisers to lategame bruisers. Second, that's simply because of how the game had to be balanced...partially because of laneswaps. Third, those are both more item timing oriented bruisers anyways, not true lategame champions. By way of example, you can't do this now, but theoretically you could make is to that a Jax that is behind a Renekton 300-200 CS would be on even footing. Or you could take Mundo who used to be bullied pretty hard early and make him much better than Maokai lategame. Balancing between "roles" in toplane has almost always been about who wins the splitpush, with bruisers almost always trading advantage there for teamfight presence | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On July 21 2016 08:46 cLutZ wrote: First, you are basically describing different roles and how they work. You should be comparing earlygame tanks to lategame tanks and earlygame bruisers to lategame bruisers. Second, that's simply because of how the game had to be balanced...partially because of laneswaps. Third, those are both more item timing oriented bruisers anyways, not true lategame champions. By way of example, you can't do this now, but theoretically you could make is to that a Jax that is behind a Renekton 300-200 CS would be on even footing. Or you could take Mundo who used to be bullied pretty hard early and make him much better than Maokai lategame. Balancing between "roles" in toplane has almost always been about who wins the splitpush, with bruisers almost always trading advantage there for teamfight presence Except since tp became a thing top lane became who doesn't go full retard too often and can work ok without items. Tanks are universally better than bruisers on low gold because tank items are cheaper. It isn't because of laneswaps or anything else. Could be different now I have watched like 10 progames this season but would be very surprised unless there are some bruisers that are just broken. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
On July 21 2016 06:18 cLutZ wrote: Does anyone remember what patch Rammus top was doing well recently? And what changes made it less so? I'm bored of normal tops and might try it out if it wasn't too eviscerated. Otherwise I'll try something else that can induce rage. Nerfed his ult pretty hard. Cooldown increased to 100 / 80 / 60 seconds from 60 at all ranks. Can't spam it every time you fight early levels. edit - Missed Jek's post, I'm an idiot. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On July 21 2016 08:46 cLutZ wrote: First, you are basically describing different roles and how they work. You should be comparing earlygame tanks to lategame tanks and earlygame bruisers to lategame bruisers. Second, that's simply because of how the game had to be balanced...partially because of laneswaps. Third, those are both more item timing oriented bruisers anyways, not true lategame champions. By way of example, you can't do this now, but theoretically you could make is to that a Jax that is behind a Renekton 300-200 CS would be on even footing. Or you could take Mundo who used to be bullied pretty hard early and make him much better than Maokai lategame. Balancing between "roles" in toplane has almost always been about who wins the splitpush, with bruisers almost always trading advantage there for teamfight presence What are you talking about comparing early and late game??? I'm comparing someone who's behind in gold relative to the mid/bot/jungle. I'm not comparing their roles in an absolute context but in the context of being far behind in cs and xp. What's how the game was balanced? The game isn't balanced at all around laneswaps. Laneswaps just make certain champs unpickable or a weak pick. If laneswaps ceased to exist we wouldn't suddenly see a bruiser dominating everything, we just see whatevers op dominating. (Gauntlet malphite, ekko, buffed trinity irelia whatever) What do you mean about that jax renekton comparison? It's not relevant to this discussion. What's relevant is would you prefer a 120 cs underleveled jax or a 150 cs underleveled renekton. You'd want neither you'd want a 170 cs underleveled maokai. (because maokai can actually cs from range) Mundo being better than maokai depends on teamcomps and such, mundo has no CC and therefore is weak in teams that rely on catching or engaging. I think who wins the split push is much less of a big deal than who is useful in teamfights. What's the threat of a split pusher unless he can dive the enemy top laner 1v1? You get a slight initiative advantage because you tie the enemy down slightly longer but it's only good to keep the enemy away from his team if he has good teamfighting, and also picking up needed farm. On July 21 2016 17:38 nafta wrote: Except since tp became a thing top lane became who doesn't go full retard too often and can work ok without items. Tanks are universally better than bruisers on low gold because tank items are cheaper. It isn't because of laneswaps or anything else. Could be different now I have watched like 10 progames this season but would be very surprised unless there are some bruisers that are just broken. not sure what you're talking about nafta. laneswaps mean low gold which means they are better than bruisers in laneswaps, tank items aren't "cheaper". It's just they don't have to invest in damage stats so no shit they get more tank stats if they invest all their gold in it. the point is tanks can be useful with full tank items and bruisers can't because they don't have the base damage and CC of tanks. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 22 2016 02:04 Slayer91 wrote: What do you mean about that jax renekton comparison? It's not relevant to this discussion. What's relevant is would you prefer a 120 cs underleveled jax or a 150 cs underleveled renekton. You'd want neither you'd want a 170 cs underleveled maokai. (because maokai can actually cs from range) That is part of the problem. There should be a jax-like (or just jax) character that you are perfectly happy to have on your team even if he is behind his lane enemy and everyone else, because he will crush regardless. However, laneswaps mean every toplaner is equally behind, so there would really be no downside to playing this faux-Jax. No laneswaps (or at least non-meta laneswaps that can be punished for useful dragons + other useful objectives) means that you can sacrifice other things to get such a theoretical toplane champion through a rough phase. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
he's strong assuming he's farmed and fed but one melee is just as any to kill as any other it's like this old old concept that strong 1v1'ers are strong lategame like nasus and shit they tend to be peaked at midgame before enemy adcs get items you can still wreck with them but you have to jump through a lot of hoops to do that not that jax is squishy but people don't go tank on him so lol | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 22 2016 03:21 cLutZ wrote: That is part of the problem. There should be a jax-like (or just jax) character that you are perfectly happy to have on your team even if he is behind his lane enemy and everyone else, because he will crush regardless. Why? You're proposing a champion where it doesn't matter if they win or lose lane. That seems terribly anathema to the core structure of the game. As it stands there are roughly three types of tops, duelists, bruisers, and tanks. Differentiated roughly, by their ability to win 1v1's and split push fast. Tanks are the slowest and don't win, but don't die. Duelists are the fastest and win, but don't do anything anywhere else. Since duelists will want to split push* the ability of duelists to do their job is not particularly dependent on the state of the rest of the lanes, only their lane. And laneswaps do not effect the relative state of the lane only the outright farm level. Duelists like Jax aren't avoided because of lane swaps, but because they don't bring enough to a team fight. Short of making them OP they aren't ever going to bring enough to a team fight (though their presence may be necessary to dissuade other picks) | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Thus, only 1 type of champ exists: economical, mid-game focused, cookie cutter. Also, there is always a chance because of fog of war a laneswap gets called, and thus a whole other pool of champions that have counterpicks/bad matchups also cannot be picked. In a laneswap meta the following types of tops that aren't viable: 1. Lategame champs (immediately nerfed if viable because its too easy to get them lategame) 2. Earlygame champs (fog of war/RNG whether you are useful) 3. Counterpickable 4. Counterpicks 5. Whatever the rest of the meta doesn't like, whether its poke, engage, or straight up being outclassed. Without a laneswap things that just aren't viable are: A: Counterpickable champs that aren't worth babysitting B: Same as 5. We all know that is just what the game is, sometimes Sejuani will just be straight better than Amumu. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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MuddyJam
535 Posts
On July 22 2016 04:27 cLutZ wrote: Get away from Jax. Jax is an example because a long time ago he was able to just beast people. Call this hypothetical champ Facemelter. Facemelter is a weak 1v1 champion early, decent 1v1 midgame teamfighting (if even), and finally a beast splitter and teamfighter late. Facemelter cannot exist if laneswaps are essentially free, as they are now, because he gets a free pass through the worst 10 minutes of his life. However, what also can't exist is anti-Melter, who is really good at keeping down facemelter and even tanks earlygame, because they get a free pass out of the ten minutes that he would be stopping them. Thus, only 1 type of champ exists: economical, mid-game focused, cookie cutter. Also, there is always a chance because of fog of war a laneswap gets called, and thus a whole other pool of champions that have counterpicks/bad matchups also cannot be picked. In a laneswap meta the following types of tops that aren't viable: 1. Lategame champs (immediately nerfed if viable because its too easy to get them lategame) 2. Earlygame champs (fog of war/RNG whether you are useful) 3. Counterpickable 4. Counterpicks 5. Whatever the rest of the meta doesn't like, whether its poke, engage, or straight up being outclassed. Without a laneswap things that just aren't viable are: A: Counterpickable champs that aren't worth babysitting B: Same as 5. We all know that is just what the game is, sometimes Sejuani will just be straight better than Amumu. what are you on about. Counterpicks and matchups have always been relevant. If the best pick at the time was Ekko then champs that ekko beats up on in lane will not be picked into him. Likewise meta often fall into top 3 with a rock/paper/scissors meta. If you have a bad matchup in standard lanes you are FORCED to lane swap which your team can be terrible at. Also how are Ekko/ryze/maokai/trundle a mid game focused champions?? Also how is (5) a top lane issue when you a building a team composition. So its seems silly to complain you can't pick something that doesn't work with your team or is bad vs their team. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
That being said, hybrid penetration is definitely a really good choice for any AP champ that AA's a lot, because you're only trading 0.25 magic penetration for each 0.9 armor penetration. | ||
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