EPT[Patch 6.14] What is Ryze General Discussion - Page 4
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Harem
United States11393 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
It really, really grinds my gears when a shoutcaster says something like "what a terrible top pick everyone knows there's only 3 top champs in the meta right now". No! You can win with Master Yi mid and Udyr jungle! Statements like that only further discourage teams from experimenting, since if they lose everyone will blame their experiment (see, e.g., top Lucian). | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Teams also have scrims to experiment, that reduces surprise picks as well since they know if it can work or not. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On July 14 2016 21:25 GrandInquisitor wrote: It's like basic support counterplay 101. Most of the playerbase is Bronze or below and so countering Leona E with Janna Q is like a meaningful thing and prepares them for more advanced mechanics. In any event Leona was still played at the pro level even though her E could be canceled, so I don't think the kit is inherently busted. you dont have to pick leona into thresh and janna in pro play and she was often used in lane swaps as well | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On July 14 2016 23:58 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder to what extent the lack of international tournaments promotes groupthink. Remember when Morgana support was treated as a big joke by China/Korea until NA/EU dominated with it at Worlds? It really, really grinds my gears when a shoutcaster says something like "what a terrible top pick everyone knows there's only 3 top champs in the meta right now". No! You can win with Master Yi mid and Udyr jungle! Statements like that only further discourage teams from experimenting, since if they lose everyone will blame their experiment (see, e.g., top Lucian). There are certain casters who try to twist every game into a champ select loss. In the games where Talayah was first broken out in the LCK, rather than understand that maybe there isn't much data on this champ yet unless you play a lot of league yourself, there was a lot of blaming the champions tried against it and suggesting of alternative picks that I promise you lose the match up as well. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
IMO almost every comp you can construct right now can make sense in a lot of situations, except ones that don't have 2 good waveclear champions (or 1 super-duper waveclearer like Viktor was). Comps with bad waveclear are the ones that inevitably end up looking like they don't make sense. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
i mean if you can't win teamfights from even gold but also cant leverage any other advantage maybe but even then there's argument that player skill decides why one team was better at teamfights and then theres champs like azir which make like 50% of champs a champ select loss | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On July 15 2016 12:44 Kinie wrote: My biggest issue with some of these "hard engage" champions (Leona is the main talking point, Vi also counts in this context) is that once they go in, they can't do enough to disrupt the back line (for Leona it's a lack of damage/kill potential, for Vi its lack of survivability along with damage because her shield passive only lasts like 2s at most before going on a 10s cooldown, and if she grabs any damage item she just dies after getting pile-dived on by the enemy team's damage dealers. I get why (if Leona did more damage or Vi lived longer then they'd be perma pick/ban) but they do need to buff them slightly so they can do their job at least as good as Maokai, Shen, etc. can't speak for leona but for vi you have to build 4 damage items or you fall off | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
She'd only work decently in a bruiser toplane meta that doesn't include her counters, basically. And she wouldn't have as much presence even with TP. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On July 16 2016 02:38 Frolossus wrote: can't speak for leona but for vi you have to build 4 damage items or you fall off Is that what you need nowadays? A long time ago when I played her, Warrior + either Black Cleaver or Triforce was all you needed before building tanky, since that alone was enough to kill an ADC. Everything else you buy is designed to let you get out after killing the ADC. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On July 16 2016 03:43 cLutZ wrote: Vi and Leona it seems like Kinie is just lamenting how they need more gold. Vi in particular. I always thought she would make a more fun laning champion than a jungler, so there is that. It's not just more gold, it's needing 7-8 item slots to be an actual endgame threat compared to any other "hard engage" champ who can still be a threat with max items. Ideally, Vi wants Triforce, BC, Frozen Mallet, Randuins, Thornmail, GA, and boots of some kind if she's going to be someone who goes in and blows up an ADC. If Riot ever wants to buff Vi in a meaningful way, then either have her passive go to a lower CD past level 11, or increase the scaling on the %HP shield she gets after hitting an enemy with a skill. Right now it's just 10% of her max HP is turned into a shield for 3s. If it scaled (say, from 7-25%) of max HP as a shield for 3s on a (at least) 8s CD then she could stick to people longer and not get blown up as fast as she does right now. Maybe making it so her ult hits period, no matter what, could work. Screw Zhonyas, Kalista pokeball, Tahmn Kench's devourer, Bard ulti, when I hit R on someone you're getting smash and grabbed. Seeing her armor break W passive scaling into late game could also work, dunno how the numbers would work on it though. Vi top lane is absolute garbage, btw. 0 wave clear unless you max E first, and then you have 0 kill pressure in lane because E does shit damage unless you get AD, and your Q is on a million year CD at rank 1, when the game incentivizes you to go W max second to hit her mid-game power spike. | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
In the late game she builds tankier and goes in so her team can blow up her target, not to kill it herself. Once said target's dead, her fully charged Q -> auto -> E combo still deals decent damage to squishies, and her W passive helps take down tanks (although she can't do it herself for lack of sustain), and her pattern's usually go in -> team blows up something while Vi lives -> run out of the fight waiting for passive and Q to come back -> go back in, ideally interrupting a dash/locking someone down. You can't ask her to 100-0 a squishy late in the game the same way you can't ask Xin Zhao or Irelia to do it (in LCS because teams snowball the game rarely go to the 4+ items on both sides state so Irelia's damage stays relevant, but she typically struggles against mobile marksmen when she can't 100-0 them anymore). Fights will be full-on 5v5 and there shouldn't be surprise attacks with the vision game and all players expecting these fights anyway. So exhaust, shields, heals, etc. will be blown since Vi's usually going for the main target, while her supports wouldn't be in range of her most of the time and that'd only expose your own squishies to a counter-dive that you'd lose either way. She doesn't have a way out, and doesn't have the damage from LB or Zed. And later in the game natural HP/armour growth outdoes a 2 (or even sometimes 3) offensive items build. Then, on top of that, add that GA is a super popular item atm, and that Vi as well as the comps she thrives in are hard-countered by GA (because she needs a viable target to go in or she's utterly useless), and even if she were buffed or what have you she wouldn't be played atm. | ||
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