EPT[Patch 6.8] Rumble Jungle General Discussion - Page 16
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On May 03 2016 02:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: The chance that a) a red-side jungler starts Krugs b) I don't see them there and c) finishes Krugs with such a strong leash that he shows up at his red before I can finish it is basically non-existent. When was the last time you can remember a red-side jungler that started Krugs? Also, I don't know what you mean by "if they start blue and mid covers wraiths entrance". If either mid or top actually spots me before the camps spawn, I just walk away and do my own camps. And after minions arrive, no mid laner is going to randomly leave lane to check their wraiths. There's an extra benefit to this invade, which is that the enemy's buffs are both going to respawn at the same time. This means that if you have a little bit of vision on where the jungler is around 6:xx, you can make an educated guess as to where he'll be and either a) invade and kill him with your mid laner or b) take another free buff. When you get to >d5 every single game edit:I lied if scip is playing olaf he will want to start blue or gromp | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
puts you like 20 seconds ahead of other jungle all things being even. And other jungler will probably expect you to start at Krugs. Its a pretty big advantage. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On May 03 2016 02:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: The chance that a) a red-side jungler starts Krugs b) I don't see them there and c) finishes Krugs with such a strong leash that he shows up at his red before I can finish it is basically non-existent. When was the last time you can remember a red-side jungler that started Krugs? Also, I don't know what you mean by "if they start blue and mid covers wraiths entrance". If either mid or top actually spots me before the camps spawn, I just walk away and do my own camps. And after minions arrive, no mid laner is going to randomly leave lane to check their wraiths. There's an extra benefit to this invade, which is that the enemy's buffs are both going to respawn at the same time. This means that if you have a little bit of vision on where the jungler is around 6:xx, you can make an educated guess as to where he'll be and either a) invade and kill him with your mid laner or b) take another free buff. You're gonna feel really bad when/if you hit Diamond+. Junglers of both teams start top-side so the duo lanes can get the bot-side camps for fast level 2. Makes for a nice trick in low Elo, though. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 02 2016 22:23 Slayer91 wrote: karma mid might be good seems like you can waveclear with RQ and roam or somtehing i think faker plays it interestingly in kr and euw karma has a 44/48% winrate on support and much worse on solos, and in na its 52% on support. But in all cases winrate is 60%+ on people maxing Q>E>W (30-40% of players) which is odd because IIRC the guy saying people don't know how to play karma advocates E max which oddly seems to be more popular since I can't imagine anyone maxes anything but W last. Where are you getting this info? OP.gg doesn't seem to say that at all. Its got 8.3k karma games but less than 1k for all skill information. (E,Q,W, has a whopping 55 games of information). With an overall win rate of 48% for support Karma either OP.gg thinks everyone shield maxes or its missing games. Champion.gg has Q>E>W at 48.5% win rate over 8400 games ostensibly using the same data set (OP.gg claims plat+ just as champion.gg does). On May 02 2016 23:10 Alaric wrote: Why would you max E first on Karma support, though? She gets weaker at level 6 compared to others so you'd want to apply pressure in lane before that, and a shield when you're not Janna (and still have low aa range) isn't going to allow that. Three reasons 1) You are actually better than Janna because you have a much better AA animation and 50 range longer auto attack. Plus the speed up makes it even easier to auto harass safely. 2) You absolutely need the CD reduction and speedup amount by the mid game. Once you're outside of laning phase your Q damage is going to suck(and be had to land) and so if you do not have your shield being useful then you're not going to do much of anything. Outside of laning phase you're almost exclusively going want to use mantra-E. E ranks will increase the shield on allies while Q or W ranks do nothing for the mantra addition. You get no additional utility on Q, no extra slow, nothing except 45 damage/rank and some CD. This is essential for mid karma to clear waves, but you don't need to do that as support Karma. 3) Shield max lets you get w up faster which increases your root duration by a full second. This means your peel and pick when you need to transfer to those is much stronger. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
instead of shielding you just heal for the same amount every 2 seconds and instead of mantra E you just press R you've got a silence and a slow without having to wait like karma leash thing is janna has 2 forms of AoE CC an AoE heal and a slow to go with her shield nobody ever goes "oh shit I can't dive this ADC there's a karma who's going to root me for 1.2 seconds any time now also janna giving free pickaxes at 5 minutes with her shields and is pretty weak in lane but with e max karma you can speed your adc faster into a 1v2 fight or maybe root the enemies so they cant run from the 1v2 fight I'm not saying mantra E isn't pretty good but you cant just wait till level 13 for it | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On May 03 2016 05:30 Goumindong wrote: Where are you getting this info? OP.gg doesn't seem to say that at all. Its got 8.3k karma games but less than 1k for all skill information. (E,Q,W, has a whopping 55 games of information). With an overall win rate of 48% for support Karma either OP.gg thinks everyone shield maxes or its missing games. Champion.gg has Q>E>W at 48.5% win rate over 8400 games ostensibly using the same data set (OP.gg claims plat+ just as champion.gg does). zzz, the winrate stuff is weird on op.gg can't really trust it, doesn't add up at all Champion.gg has Q>E>W at 48.5% winrate but if people going QWQ (i.e forgoing shield until lvl 4 for more harassing) as having a 55% winrate, but with a lower sample size (~500 games I think) | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
If you a champion that's useless in lane and doesn't do anything until later, then don't pick a champion who's best before 6 and whose utility doesn't make up for the otherwise inferior kit and all over the place benefits. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Soraka should max Q. Janna has neither an AoE Speedup or an AoE shield multiple times in a team fight, she is good in against assassins but not particularly anything else. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
but yea ill take janna over a walking RG+locket active nearly all the time just because mantra E isn't completely maxed out doesn't mean its totally useless and also you get to use mantra Q's for poke which is nice for sieging early towers and dragon fights while their tanks don't have the items to just block and ignore the damage I wouldn't say janna is only good against assassins, anyone who wants to dive a squishy line she's good against. Maybe not the best but always a strong support in all seasons. Not sure what's you taking about with Q max soraka it's like the champion with a 2 second heal that's as good as karma shield should be taking the shitty poke spell and the champion with the really good poke spell should be taking the shitty shield what? then again the stats back you up it has a higher winrate by 5% if you max Q>W EDIT: Oh they massively buffed her Q since I last played her, Q heals your allies now and gives you a speed boost what the fuck riot?? oh yeah i forgot soraka has a root as good as karmas if it hits but also silences damn riot nice job I actually think the main thing karma has going for her is that she's fun to play. You can run around poking people in lane and then zoom zoom later on. I see her a lot more than a lot of way better supports but she's never scary to play against or anything. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
I don't mind having karma if im playing skarner, but i cant think of any other champions where I would want her | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 03 2016 06:19 Alaric wrote: At least max Q till level 5 or 7 if you want to get E early, because better aa animation and 50 range means jack shit when your range is still below average, and your shield won't let you win a trade like Janna's can. If I see you shield yourself and run to me as Braum, Lulu or even Sona, I'll gladly take the trade and fight you. If you a champion that's useless in lane and doesn't do anything until later, then don't pick a champion who's best before 6 and whose utility doesn't make up for the otherwise inferior kit and all over the place benefits. And you will lose that trade if you try it* I mean i just don't know what to tell you. Karma's laning is strong on an E max as well as a Q. (and its less binary). Her mid and lategame are better on an E max than a Q and her mid and lategame are not weak in the slightest on an E max. Karma has a goddamn 440+1.1 AP (220+.55 secondary) shield every goddamn 8 to 12 seconds in a team fight, with a 2 second targeted root on a 6.6 second CD (that can also heal her for 40% of her missing HP if she forgoes one of the shields). Against basically everyone but some assassins Karma has a stronger late-game than Janna. *though to be fair, probably not on Sona. Lulu can't auto fast enough to not get picked apart. If she E's you she can probably land the Q, but won't do well on the trade and will run oom way too fast. Braum just gets shit on since you don't shield until he attempts to hit you with a Q at which point you dodge it with your shield speedup and ruin his day since he has no way to get near you or do damage to you. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Like I mean I'm just talking about karma in general at level 13 you're arguing about whether 0.6 seconds of root (against a mercs bruiser) is better than having poke damage. You don't cast shield until braum attempts to fire Q. And what if braum doesn't Q until you cast shield? bit of a standoff then so yea you win lane is braum is dumb good job. maybe you can try to auto harass your way to victory but you'll take a lot of creep damage might work but you'll push the lane enough that they won't lose many creeps even if braum never uses any abilities depends on adc too braum can just W a creep and auto your adc and lucian procs the stun and you hit Q after but if adc is ezreal or something you can't do that at all. Can you like record some games of you doing well with this E max karma so you can convince us with more than "It's strong because I told you it's strong" or "List what E does and then say its better than alternatives with no context" I mean the burden of proof is on you since karma is statisically bad, never really played in pro games and even then not as an E max. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
E needs the cooldown bonus as well as the stronger shield. The CD makes the speed up a lot more effective and also brings the total shield strength/time up over Janna (without mantra) Janna does not have an AoE sped up. It only works if allies are moving towards her Proving the passive is easy. I assume about 2 autos and one full w channel in my cd assumptions. Plus the 50 games of doing this of course. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
what is a better poke spell from a support champion? Velkoz Q? yea the slow isn't good enough to keep people in its damage assuming you never have any teammates casting any cc spells or preventing them from walking certain directions if you never have teammates mantra E is pretty worthless too | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
This discussion is a joke but its gonna continue for like 5 more pages until a mod says to stfu. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
also forget about karma everyone should be prepping their trundle for the un QSSable steal their tank ultimate. also prepping zed bans lol. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
and this is coming from some one that loves non meta, like I only play non meta champs. But damn. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
You can cite statistics as a strong case for its falsehood but not strong enough to disprove someone suggesting a different approach to the champ completely. So you're mostly left with logic which is a difficult thing because there are so many dependent variables and a lot of general complexity so it's difficult to isolate key factors which is what makes this interesting. Comparison seems like an important method because it allows us to view the deltas because arguing a shield is weak only makes sense if compared to something else. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 03 2016 07:03 VayneAuthority wrote: like karma being a better support "vs everybody but some assassins" then janna is the stupidest thing ive heard all year but if i said how i really felt id get banned instantly. So instead garbage discussion just permeates the board and it turns into an inactive reddit basically and this is coming from some one that loves non meta, like I only play non meta champs. But damn. Eh, everyone says dumb shit on this forum, even yourself. That's kinda what an Internet forum is. But the point is that by putting competing dumb shit up against each other, you sometimes learn some useful stuff. Whereas when everyone just agrees with each other and circlejerks, nothing of value is gained. | ||
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