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I mentioned the power curve changes for Darius I think? Didn't say a thing about Garen because I didn't wanna do the maths to know when Judgement's worse or better at that time, so I didn't mention it rather than be wrong.
The loss of W's passive and the Tenacity's kinda harsh, and he'll become less useful against several champions now with the shorter silence (meh, that part's huge in some cases, even in "unusual" ones like for example silencing an Amumu while he bandages in so he can't follow up with ult before you disengage, but Riot dislike stuff being "innately" situational or "blind lane counter" and they hate silences in general zzz).
About E, it's more the "what's the point of leveling it at this stage" since it's gonna get stronger later by itself anyway. I dunno, they use it more and more, and while it makes sense for a passive (I mean innate passive), using it for an ability which you can already rank is... weird?
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On August 06 2015 23:25 Alaric wrote:
I mentioned the power curve changes for Darius I think? Didn't say a thing about Garen because I didn't wanna do the maths to know when Judgement's worse or better at that time, so I didn't mention it rather than be wrong.
The loss of W's passive and the Tenacity's kinda harsh, and he'll become less useful against several champions now with the shorter silence (meh, that part's huge in some cases, even in "unusual" ones like for example silencing an Amumu while he bandages in so he can't follow up with ult before you disengage, but Riot dislike stuff being "innately" situational or "blind lane counter" and they hate silences in general zzz).
About E, it's more the "what's the point of leveling it at this stage" since it's gonna get stronger later by itself anyway. I dunno, they use it more and more, and while it makes sense for a passive (I mean innate passive), using it for an ability which you can already rank is... weird?
I only quoted the stuff you mentioned about garen, so that's not gonna work alaric. stand and fite me.
"what's the point of leveing it"
this is so fucking stupid wtf?
it gains (100-200 based on level)+80% of your total AD in damage from rank 1 to 5 (initial damage scaling pretty decently off levels/ad). Of course you're going to level it. That is a pretty appreciable damage increase as compared to most champs who gain 200ish damage fron 1-->5 rank.
Before is was stupid as fuck where it went from 60-->360+120% of your AD in damage basically making it mandatory to level first in every situation.
Now you might have situations where you can max Q first, just for the extra speed for catching people. Unfortunately they rekt W so they can add strength to his other abilities so no reason to level that.
W's passive tenacity is a nerf but the actual 30 resist is better than the old one lots of times. Even if you buy 100 armour and mr which is a lot its only +20 resists, You have to buy 150 bonus resists to match which is pretty insane. Even if the scaling per level counts you still need to invest heavily on resists to break the old version.
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I kind of really like reading Teuts garen posts.
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Yeah I just answered very slowly and hadn't seen the changes since then. For example the "you move 20% slower when Judgement is dealing damage to a champion" seemed pretty terrible to me. Also apparently he can't move through minions at all anymore? The wording seemed to suggest he only lose the MS penalty, but it'd be weird to let him move through minions at full speed while spinning.
Judgement dealing less damage when hitting several units means he'd have to deal 33% more damage than currently... which is the live value (33% more to monsters and champions), so his clear should stay intact, if I read it well?
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On August 07 2015 00:08 Alaric wrote:
Yeah I just answered very slowly and hadn't seen the changes since then. For example the "you move 20% slower when Judgement is dealing damage to a champion" seemed pretty terrible to me. Also apparently he can't move through minions at all anymore? The wording seemed to suggest he only lose the MS penalty, but it'd be weird to let him move through minions at full speed while spinning.
Judgement dealing less damage when hitting several units means he'd have to deal 33% more damage than currently... which is the live value (33% more to monsters and champions), so his clear should stay intact, if I read it well?
Moving 20% slower you have to take into account garen often gets 35% bonus movement speed still in effect while using E at high ranks of Q. It seemed like it could be bad but who knows. You can probably still move through minions, since this thing would have done the same thing.
Also, you don't need to deal 33% more damage, you already did 25% less damage to monsters so dealing 25% less damage to multiple units means its the same (ignoring the E damage buffs which are big) on multiple targets and better on single targets. (second E on blue/red, gromp, the main camps that were slow on garen).
Should be a large buff to his clear.
At level 16 with a little over 100 AD your E is doing about 1k damage base, previously about 700, so even on multiple targets its doing fine.
However there is a dynamic of your E damage being reduced a lot in lane phase near minions, this can be counterbalanced somewhat by having minion advantage if your E is killing them. Will mean kiting garen in a minion wave in 1v1's would be smart later on.
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Na, the number is good, we just looked at it from differing PoVs.
- base damage on minions is 75%, so 33% more to get to 100%.
- base damage on champions and monsters is 100%, so need 25% less to get to 75%.
And as I said I didn't know the numbers, so I checked on the wiki and the whole "25% damage less when hitting multiple units" means doing the same damage as currently since they removed the damage penalty on minions (unless you hit only one minion with Judgement but hey, there's no kill like overkill right?).
And it's a buff to his waveclear overall if Judgement is buffed even early as you said.
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On August 06 2015 22:32 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 14:15 Hider wrote:Riot's explanation on why they dont implement a sandbox mode is downright stupid. They say theyre scared that the average player will fall behind in mechanics because theres an option that people can use to practice their champion and skills before going into real games? Theres NORMAL and RANKED modes exist for a reason. They should allow the players to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play casually or competitively. Well it's only stupid because you don't understand the argument. The question is whether regular players will feel obligated to play boring exercises in order to get out of gold league (becasue everyone in plat and above does them). If that's the case, it will make the average playing experience worse. A gold leaguer isn't some super competitive guy (most likely), yet he still probaly wants to improve, and there seems to be a very unnuanced viewpoint that you can divide players into two categories: 1. Casuals who doesn't care about improving 2. Competitive who are super serious and for whom improving is all that matters. While in reality there are millions of people inbetween the above two categories for whom both want to improve and have fun in the proces. We have a pretty different understanding of 'regular player.' It's not Gold.
Aren't the majority of ranked players in silver/gold? And I'm pretty sure ranked players are in the majority of the total playerbase.
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On August 07 2015 01:14 Alaric wrote:
Na, the number is good, we just looked at it from differing PoVs.
- base damage on minions is 75%, so 33% more to get to 100%.
- base damage on champions and monsters is 100%, so need 25% less to get to 75%.
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thanks for explaining basic math alaric. just because i stuck to the original numberdoesn't mean i don't understand what you're talking about
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United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2015 01:17 Nos- wrote:
Aren't the majority of ranked players in silver/gold? And I'm pretty sure ranked players are in the majority of the total playerbase.
Bronze and Silver make up the largest player % in ranked, not Silver and Gold.
And no, the overwhelming majority of players do not play ranked. Lolsummoners' total for global ranked players is ~10.5 million players, while Riot's most recent report for total playerbase size is 65+ million monthly unique players.
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Isnt judgement doing 25% less when hitting multiple targets a pretty significant nerf to teamfight damage? I mean I know most of the time you are spinning on 1 guy and full comboing him but if you are happening to hit 2 people now you do -25% damage?
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yeah but you really do 150% damage since you're hitting 2 targets science
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On August 06 2015 22:32 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 14:15 Hider wrote:Riot's explanation on why they dont implement a sandbox mode is downright stupid. They say theyre scared that the average player will fall behind in mechanics because theres an option that people can use to practice their champion and skills before going into real games? Theres NORMAL and RANKED modes exist for a reason. They should allow the players to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play casually or competitively. Well it's only stupid because you don't understand the argument. The question is whether regular players will feel obligated to play boring exercises in order to get out of gold league (becasue everyone in plat and above does them). If that's the case, it will make the average playing experience worse. A gold leaguer isn't some super competitive guy (most likely), yet he still probaly wants to improve, and there seems to be a very unnuanced viewpoint that you can divide players into two categories: 1. Casuals who doesn't care about improving 2. Competitive who are super serious and for whom improving is all that matters. While in reality there are millions of people inbetween the above two categories for whom both want to improve and have fun in the proces. We have a pretty different understanding of 'regular player.' It's not Gold.
Regular players here is those inbetween compettive and casuals. E.g. those who want to improve and have fun at the same time. They will weight the trade-off when deciding what to play.
So if the advantages of doing boring exercises is too high compared to just playing the game, they will spend more time on boring exercises. If on the other hand, the advantage is marginal, it's likely that they will spend the majority of the time playing the game and only occationally (or never) do sandbox mode. The latter is imo the ideal state.
Montecristo: "Its not a game-designers job to determine how players best improve".
That's, incorrect! A game designers job is all about creating the incentivies so the majority of the target audience will enjoy the game the most.
The reason Montecristo (and a lot of the community) views this topic differently is because they think that its Riot's job to give them the tools so players can improve as fast as possible. Whereas it actually doesn't matter how fast players improve in absolute values. What matters is that they have fun in the proces.
But as I wrote, I think its unlikely that a Sandbox mode will create the "wrong" incentives (where you spend too much time on sandbox mode) as it isn't the norm to do sandbox-exercises in other games.
TLDR: The concerns/thought proces of Riot is correct, but they aren't properly evaluating the data.
With regards to communication, I think part of the issue is that Riot can't directly say we don't give a shit about whether you improve slower or faster, because this will annoy alot of the (vocal) community.
Instead they opt for the middle-ground appraoch where they kinda imply it and add some less relevant arguments (e.g. the toxicity). But this has just caused a high level of confusion amongst the community where the majority doesn't show any understanding of Riot's thought proces.
In these instances where a company can only be viewed in a negative spotlight by stating the truth, then you probably shouldn't write anything at all, or at least you should put extra work into the communication.
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On August 07 2015 03:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 22:32 Ansibled wrote:On August 06 2015 14:15 Hider wrote:Riot's explanation on why they dont implement a sandbox mode is downright stupid. They say theyre scared that the average player will fall behind in mechanics because theres an option that people can use to practice their champion and skills before going into real games? Theres NORMAL and RANKED modes exist for a reason. They should allow the players to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play casually or competitively. Well it's only stupid because you don't understand the argument. The question is whether regular players will feel obligated to play boring exercises in order to get out of gold league (becasue everyone in plat and above does them). If that's the case, it will make the average playing experience worse. A gold leaguer isn't some super competitive guy (most likely), yet he still probaly wants to improve, and there seems to be a very unnuanced viewpoint that you can divide players into two categories: 1. Casuals who doesn't care about improving 2. Competitive who are super serious and for whom improving is all that matters. While in reality there are millions of people inbetween the above two categories for whom both want to improve and have fun in the proces. We have a pretty different understanding of 'regular player.' It's not Gold. Regular players here is those inbetween compettive and casuals. E.g. those who want to improve and have fun at the same time. They will weight the trade-off when deciding what to play. So if the advantages of doing boring exercises is too high compared to just playing the game, they will spend more time on boring exercises. If on the other hand, the advantage is marginal, it's likely that they will spend the majority of the time playing the game and only occationally (or never) do sandbox mode. The latter is imo the ideal state. Montecristo: Its not a game-designers job to determine how players best improve. That's, incorrect! A game designers job is all about creating the incentivies so the majority of the target audience will enjoy the game the most. The reason Montecristo (and a lot of the community) views this topic differently is because they think that its Riot's job to give them the tools so players can improve as fast as possible. Whereas it actually doesn't matter how fast players improve in absolute values. What matters is that they have fun in the proces. But as I wrote, I think its unlikely that a Sandbox mode will create the "wrong" incentives (where you spend too much time on sandbox mode) as it isn't the norm to do sandbox-exercises in other games. TLDR: The concerns/thought proces of Riot is correct, but they aren't properly evaluating the data. With regards to communication, I think part of the issue is that Riot can't directly say we don't give a shit about whether you improve slower or faster, because this will annoy alot of the (vocal) community. Instead they opt for the middle-ground appraoch where they kinda imply it and add some less relevant arguments (e.g. the toxicity). But this has just caused a high level of confusion amongst the community where the majority doesn't show any understanding of Riot's thought proces. In these instances where a company can only be viewed in a negative spotlight by stating the truth that you probably shouldn't write anything at all, or at least you should put extra work into the communication.
The reason the Riot viewpoint is not as logical as you seem to give it credit for is there are some, actually many, situations that you cannot plausibly improve on given the system in place.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2015 03:43 Hider wrote:
TLDR: The concerns/thought proces of Riot is correct, but they aren't properly evaluating the data.
So, in other words:
On August 06 2015 14:31 TheYango wrote:
As is the case with a lot of Riot's game design philosophy (such as their reasoning for not adding interwoven bans to the draft), it's over-philosophizing game design to reach empirically false conclusions.
On August 06 2015 16:05 Zess wrote:
It's as if the design team says "we believe in XXX, which is a theoretically valid and falsifiable argument, but now we're going to plug our ears anytime anything YYY happens that could contradict our beautiful world view that must conform to XXX"
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So, in other words:
Yeh kinda, however, I think those quotes are still a bit unnuanced. The reason is that there are actually some empirical data that suggest otherwise, e.g. real sports where "sandbox"-exercises are dominant. Practicing isn't particularly fun in real sports, and that's unlike League of Legends where lots of people can play for 6-10 hours on a daily basis and have tons of fun.
However, the problem is that they are evaluating the wrong empirical data. E.g. why look at real sports when you can look at other computer games?
So I don't think it's corect to say that 40 years of empirical data prooves Riot wrong, but rather the issue is that Riot developers need more skills in evaluating data and their consequences on game design.
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United States47024 Posts
???
Positive examples can't rule out contradiction, but negative examples can prove one. That's basic logic.
The fact that there exist examples consistent with their logic is irrelevant if there is one counterexample that proves otherwise.
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Those of you worrying about how Riot changed things before worlds in the past might find point #3 entertaining. Or distressing.
We're putting a lot of stuff in 5.16 for a few reasons: - These are changes that have been developed together that tie in with each other. The state of Morde, Garen etc is going to be highly impacted by the items available to them. Releasing champ changes and items separately means having to wait longer to get a true read on how they interact with each other.
- After 5.16 we want to start focusing on balance and stability as we prepare for the patch Worlds will be played on (most likely 5.18). Putting all the disruption into one patch, and then taking a couple to balance it, gives us more time to catch issues than spreading it out over 3 patches and then not having any reaction time to issues that emerge in the third patch.
- We feel we've been a bit too conservative in the past in the run up to Worlds. Worlds should involve a stable patch, that teams can focus on, ideally with any massive balance outliers. That's not to say it should reflect a game state that's been unchanged for so long it's starting to feel stale though. It's about two months until Worlds right now, which we feel's a good time to introduce some change before, as above, shifting gears to balance/polish.
source
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On August 06 2015 16:05 Zess wrote:
However, the argument Riot puts forth, that a practice mode would obligate players to practice, and that it would be used to push verbal harassment onto under-performing players to practice whatever they screwed up, is as you pointed out, contradicted by the plenty of available empirical examples.
Yes but people are already obligated to practice and verbal harassment over skills is already about as dense as it can get.
What is the number one thing people here tell others on how to get better "go practice CS'ing".
Its true that if you give people a practice environment they will practice "more". But its also true that they will be able to practice more efficiently, and may even be able to play the game more.
Practice modes also have other ancillary benefits for players who may have anxiety about playing unfamiliar champions as it gives them a safe space to work on mechanics until they're comfortable playing it. You could say it should be normals but normals isn't treated that way by many many people. Additionally even if it was, many players don't like feeding in normals and "ruining" those games for the people they play with. Which is going to happen if they're playing Yasuo or Riven whatever for the first time without any practice.
Additionally, playing poorly and getting wrecked isn't fun. So saying "players should play more games and suck while they learn" is kind of missing the point. No one wants to go play a full game of basketball and hope they get fouled in order to learn to shoot free throws better. Every other sport has large fundamental practice sessions with few interspersed scrimmages, even sports like fighting games (or chess) just because playing well and having fun requires that you practice.
It would be a lot better if they just said 'we don't have the resources to devote to it due to the coding debt we have. We think our time is better spent on alternate modes and delivering interesting and unique champions and mechanics". Because that is probably what the truth is,(no one likes being lied to) but also an actual legitimate issue, as much as a small base would really really like replays and a practice space.
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God forbid people encourage others to practice and better themselves.
The one thing I don't like with this whole debacle is the idea you could have a sandbox mode on only the tournament realm. It'll create an even larger divide between LCS players and new coming challenger teams. It should be all or nothing. It's one thing to not have a screw driver and unable to tighten a screw. It's another to have a screw driver and not use it.
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EPT
