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On August 06 2015 14:15 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Riot's explanation on why they dont implement a sandbox mode is downright stupid. They say theyre scared that the average player will fall behind in mechanics because theres an option that people can use to practice their champion and skills before going into real games? Theres NORMAL and RANKED modes exist for a reason. They should allow the players to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play casually or competitively. Well it's only stupid because you don't understand the argument. The question is whether regular players will feel obligated to play boring exercises in order to get out of gold league (becasue everyone in plat and above does them). If that's the case, it will make the average playing experience worse.
There is circlejerk that sandbox should be auto-added to for highest competitive ability (like the examples of free throws and basketball). You are right that this argument doesn't really address Riot's concerns.
However, the argument Riot puts forth, that a practice mode would obligate players to practice, and that it would be used to push verbal harassment onto under-performing players to practice whatever they screwed up, is as you pointed out, contradicted by the plenty of available empirical examples.
It's as if the design team says "we believe in XXX, which is a theoretically valid and falsifiable argument, but now we're going to plug our ears anytime anything YYY happens that could contradict our beautiful world view that must conform to XXX"
Edit:
As expected however, after the initial announcement that was phrased poorly, and the attempts to explain it in the Reddit thread (also done poorly), there is now massive backtracking and "reinterpretation of our original meaning" to attempt to ameliorate things
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whatever, maybe we'll get sandbox sooner now.
Riot's damage control and announcements are a fucking disaster, there are just like ten guys randomly posting things officially with no communication or vetting.
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Well, that's one of the last steps before transparency turns into "official statement" which becomes so vague they can't possibly be misinterpreted. I prefer the first.
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The damage control from Riot is realy
But seriously lets talk about a real issue here like me not having a bunnygirl riven icon
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On August 06 2015 13:38 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun. I think everyone who argues that you should have Sandbox because it will give better practice environment for competitive players (e.g. Montecristo) shows a general lack of understanding about game design. Game design is - as you point out - at the end of the day about making the game fun for the majority of the target audience. It's not about giving the tools so the very very very best players can get better absolutely (not relatively), because there is going to be an esport no matter whether Sandbox exist or not and the viewing quality isn't really related to this aspect either.
wow ur a game design expert, sounds like u would be a perfect fit at riot
having a sandbox has nothing to do with game design, because it has nothing to do with the core gameplay of the game itself. why cant you give tools to the very very best players? is there automatically some kind of tradeoff for casuals? you argue that with sandbox mode, the general skill level will go up. it will be harder to get into plat. SO WHAT? thats the point of divisions. why do the skill divisions have to remain static? the average skill level of the playerbase will naturally increase, sandbox mode or not.
User was warned for this post
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On August 06 2015 14:49 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 14:31 TheYango wrote:
There is "logic" to Riot's argument, but it is contradicted by actual examples in existing competitive games.
As is the case with a lot of Riot's game design philosophy (such as their reasoning for not adding interwoven bans to the draft), it's over-philosophizing game design to reach empirically false conclusions. tl;dr Rito is bad and dum
It's not that they are dumb, well they are. It's more that they refuse to acknowledge any other games experience or past so they continually try reinvent the wheel instead of building on the knowledge from seeing how other games went. It would be like myself as an Engineering student ignoring 40 years of empirical work just to do the exact same mistakes they initially did all those years ago. That's what Riot is doing. It's as if they believe they are smarter and know better than anyone else.
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I believe Rioters are genius masterminds who commit to the sandbox discussion on purpose to drive attention away from the DDOS ruining the challenger series.
+ Show Spoiler +At least that makes for a good conspiracy theory.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On August 06 2015 19:08 Prog wrote:I believe Rioters are genius masterminds who commit to the sandbox discussion on purpose to drive attention away from the DDOS ruining the challenger series. + Show Spoiler +At least that makes for a good conspiracy theory.
Wickd found out that LCS was scripted and so Elements had to silence him. He tried to get back into LCS to find evidence of the truth and so riot had Kirei ddosed forcing his team to forfeit. To keep the public eye off Wickd riot put out the sandbox paragraph.
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I have never regarded a full sandbox mode as a possibility for a game like League with its monetization model, so the whole discussion is kinda surpising to me.
A training mode where you can change a range of preset parameters (like Try Mode in hots) is way more realistic. If the discussion had went in that direction it would have probably been more productive.
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Has anyone played with the new Fiora? Wondering what lane/item setup seems to be working. She's too dam sexy for me not to try. Although I did get firefox ahri on sale
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On August 06 2015 20:11 Numy wrote:
Has anyone played with the new Fiora? Wondering what lane/item setup seems to be working. She's too dam sexy for me not to try. Although I did get firefox ahri on sale
I got Primetime Draven with Mystery Gift and I've played first 2 games with him yesterday.
1. He's awesome, I'm gonna spam Draven games for a while.2
2. Catching his axes in first 2 games were pretty awkward, I figured out in the 2nd game how does it exactly work, lol.
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While Draven is a manly man he isn't quite a woman with beautiful bangs, hips and a tight ass
I'm sitting with like 500 RP but idk if I should mystery gift or just save for a sale.
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On August 06 2015 20:11 Numy wrote:
Has anyone played with the new Fiora? Wondering what lane/item setup seems to be working. She's too dam sexy for me not to try. Although I did get firefox ahri on sale
Thought Fiora was disabled.
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On August 06 2015 14:15 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Riot's explanation on why they dont implement a sandbox mode is downright stupid. They say theyre scared that the average player will fall behind in mechanics because theres an option that people can use to practice their champion and skills before going into real games? Theres NORMAL and RANKED modes exist for a reason. They should allow the players to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play casually or competitively. Well it's only stupid because you don't understand the argument. The question is whether regular players will feel obligated to play boring exercises in order to get out of gold league (becasue everyone in plat and above does them). If that's the case, it will make the average playing experience worse. A gold leaguer isn't some super competitive guy (most likely), yet he still probaly wants to improve, and there seems to be a very unnuanced viewpoint that you can divide players into two categories: 1. Casuals who doesn't care about improving 2. Competitive who are super serious and for whom improving is all that matters. While in reality there are millions of people inbetween the above two categories for whom both want to improve and have fun in the proces.
We have a pretty different understanding of 'regular player.' It's not Gold.
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On August 06 2015 22:24 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 20:11 Numy wrote:
Has anyone played with the new Fiora? Wondering what lane/item setup seems to be working. She's too dam sexy for me not to try. Although I did get firefox ahri on sale Thought Fiora was disabled.
Enabled on EUW at least. FP and guy banned it 
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On August 06 2015 22:32 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 14:15 Hider wrote:Riot's explanation on why they dont implement a sandbox mode is downright stupid. They say theyre scared that the average player will fall behind in mechanics because theres an option that people can use to practice their champion and skills before going into real games? Theres NORMAL and RANKED modes exist for a reason. They should allow the players to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play casually or competitively. Well it's only stupid because you don't understand the argument. The question is whether regular players will feel obligated to play boring exercises in order to get out of gold league (becasue everyone in plat and above does them). If that's the case, it will make the average playing experience worse. A gold leaguer isn't some super competitive guy (most likely), yet he still probaly wants to improve, and there seems to be a very unnuanced viewpoint that you can divide players into two categories: 1. Casuals who doesn't care about improving 2. Competitive who are super serious and for whom improving is all that matters. While in reality there are millions of people inbetween the above two categories for whom both want to improve and have fun in the proces. We have a pretty different understanding of 'regular player.' It's not Gold.
people who play ranked are the minority and the people who are in gold 2 for example are top 14/5% of ranked on euw.Clearly riot need to limit how many games you can play per day and how much educational vods you can watch per week.It is unfair to do the casual player.
Not to mention that technically you can go in a bot game and practice last hitting and never miss it right?Except every single pro misses cs every game.Just because you can practice something doesn't mean it will make you better at executing in a competetive/pressured enviroment(which ranked isn't for most but still).
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On August 05 2015 12:26 Alaric wrote:
The Villain mechanic on Garen is arbitrary and dumb as bricks (but hey, it helps him come back if he dies in lane! ... till someone else on your team dies elsewhere so pointless). The changes to Judgement are... really? I don't care if it's a buff or a nerf, but the spam of "that thing becomes better at levels X, regardless of whether or not you put points in it" is a very ugly way to switch power curves around as they like.
I'd rather see things like using bonus AD ratios, and making them increase non-linearly with levels (say a spell's ratio doubles when it reaches level 4, so the ratio is low enough early that a brutaliser won't make you huge, and since it's a bonus AD ratio you can play around the base too), than giving bonuses at seemingly random times.
Especially when they have to make Garen slower when he's hitting someone, wtf.
"That thing that becomes better at X levels"
What's wrong with that? Garens E was scaling off base AD already meaning it scaled off base levels regardless. They are just tuning the scaling.
They tried bonus AD ratios on garen. They didn't work because people can't viably build damage on a melee champ with no mobility. They don't make you scale non-linearly they just don't make you scale at all in practice.
I don't see the move slower change but if it's what I saw on reddit you can abuse it by spinning in front of a target in teamfights, In lane it can be juked though.
It is interesting they are talking about buffing his lategame and weakening his early game but it doesn't seem like that's whats happening at all.
One thing is that garens spin is appalling at early levels until level 7 or something. They are actually buffing the damage and ratio early game meaning he'll actually probably be stronger early on now. A lot of garens strength came from his huge lategame tank bonuses and long silence. If you landed Q on someone you are pretty much guaranteed to land a full duration spin and then they are in lethal ult range. Meanwhile you're one of if not the most tanky champ in the game if you use W well. (full channel R mundo with no ignite is stronger but only after 7 seconds)
They are significantly nerfing the long silence and base hp as well as the W tenacity and bonus resists (still probably fine to get flat resists instead of stacking resists you stack more hp), and adding lategame E damage but it's going to be harder to hit because of the move nerf and silence nerf.
They seem interesting to me. They might be a nerf or a buff, they are basically making him easier to kite in exchange for giving him more damage. I don't necessarily disagree with this, it was far too easy to flash Q E ignite R someone in a teamfight and not much they can do about it. People only don't care because nobody played garen.
He should be stronger in jungle now with the E damage early on buffed doubly so (increased damage and no penalty vs minions) and the ability to just camp whoever is the villain after 6 LOL
They are pushing BC on him extra hard now with the increased amounts of ticks and %bonus-->flat resists, and increased ad ratios; I'll probably buy it after sunfire now.
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http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Y7ELMJAK-garen-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread
They already changed him more.I think the latest updates are pretty good.
P - Perseverance
HP/sec at level 16 1.6% >>> 2.0% (Live value)
Q - Decisive Strike
(Added) Garen now moves up to 50 units toward his target when attacking with Decisive Strike from max attack range
W - Courage
Armor/MR per kill 0.2 >>> 0.3
Armor/MR per Champion/LargeMonster/EpicMonster kill 1 >>> 0.3
Armor/MR cap per rank 10/15/20/25/30 >>> 30 all ranks
E - Judgment
Base Damage 12/16/20/24/28 >>> 20/25/30/35/40
(Removed) Garen is no longer slowed when moving toward champions he's hitting with Judgment
(Added) Judgment now deals 25% reduced damage when hitting multiple units
(Removed) Judgment no longer deals reduced damage to minions
*R - Demacian Justice - unchanged
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Well the PBE thread is going well : )
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That's what I was looking at. One interesting thing is that getting kills on tanks suddenly becomes horrible against garen because E will do 10% of your max HP in true damage, shred all your armour and he can ult for probably 1k~ish true damage on you, Riot should probably change that mechanic come to think about it.
On August 06 2015 23:19 nafta wrote:http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Y7ELMJAK-garen-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-threadThey already changed him more.I think the latest updates are pretty good. P - Perseverance HP/sec at level 16 1.6% >>> 2.0% (Live value) Q - Decisive Strike (Added) Garen now moves up to 50 units toward his target when attacking with Decisive Strike from max attack range W - Courage Armor/MR per kill 0.2 >>> 0.3 Armor/MR per Champion/LargeMonster/EpicMonster kill 1 >>> 0.3 Armor/MR cap per rank 10/15/20/25/30 >>> 30 all ranks E - Judgment Base Damage 12/16/20/24/28 >>> 20/25/30/35/40 (Removed) Garen is no longer slowed when moving toward champions he's hitting with Judgment (Added) Judgment now deals 25% reduced damage when hitting multiple units (Removed) Judgment no longer deals reduced damage to minions *R - Demacian Justice - unchanged
Oh didn't see the latest. So they didn't bother changing the attack range on garen? Guess it didn't make much sense so they did an udyr bear stance job on it. I guess they actually kept the monster nerf sort but only on the aoe camps, it'll mean the spin after you kill the small guys will do a lot more damage, should help his early clear a lot.
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EPT
