EPT'cept you can't because Ryze's Q (and E since it's still at level 1) cost basically nothing for 200+ damage trades w/o autos, Kayle can't always ult herself and make you lose the fight, and unless Ekko is so low that even post-ult he's going to die you need to perma-cc him to get rid of him at 6, which generally isn't available.
[Patch 5.10] Ekko General Discussion - Page 41
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
'cept you can't because Ryze's Q (and E since it's still at level 1) cost basically nothing for 200+ damage trades w/o autos, Kayle can't always ult herself and make you lose the fight, and unless Ekko is so low that even post-ult he's going to die you need to perma-cc him to get rid of him at 6, which generally isn't available. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On June 09 2015 14:26 sob3k wrote: I can't play teambuilder because of ryze, its completely broken. You have to literally coordinate a 3 man to kill him and if you dont layer your cc perfectly he'll take two of them with him. this is the most stupid broken thing I've seen playing league If he doesn't get fed, his teamfighting isn't that oppressive. The main problems are people trying to play melee's in lane vs him, and people trying to 1v1 him/getting caught midgame. Cho/Cass/Fizz/Lulu/plenty of other champions go even or beat him in lane easily enough, and in teamfights he has to get sooo close that he can quite easily get focused down. He's strong sure, but there's some hyperbole going on too | ||
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OhTwoMise
United States164 Posts
On June 09 2015 12:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs. "Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select. I think you can get even more specific than this. As far as I can tell "outplay" is synonymous with "use blinks and/or invulnerability frames to not get blown up." It doesn't help that most of the egregious offenders in the blink department also have stupid amounts of burst damage. And for the most part, the burst damage on the blinkers is much more reliable than other champions both because less of it tends to be skillshot-based and because skillshots are much easier to hit when you fire them from wherever you want. I think a big part of the problem is that there isn't any subset of things that is specifically better against the aggressive blinkers than the rest of the champion pool. DotA has long-duration, instant silences. League just doesn't have anything resembling that. Everything that is good against a blink is equally good or better against a Jinx. And even the stuff that's theoretically good against blinks on paper, like Maokai, often works out pretty poorly; your Maokai winds up a screen and a half away in the middle of the enemy team after trying to lock down a poking Leblanc. Sort of in this line, what I find most egregious is the champion design that brought us Kalista and Yasuo. If Riot wants to make the game about skillshots, fine; that's a legitimate design choice. Even skillshots versus blinks isn't out of the question if handled well. But if you're going to do that, why the fuck do we now have two champions that are functionally immune to skillshots? | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Riot has been systematically reducing the power of single target hard CC for quite some time. The 3 second silences, taunts, fears, and stuns have been slowly removed or reduced. The longest remaining single target hard CCs are Rammus' Taunt and Fiddlesticks' Fear at 2.25 seconds, but few last longer than 1.5. AoE CC hasn't been proportionally affected, so it's no surprise we see so much of it in competitive play. Unless you have an exceptional form of single target CC (e.g. hooks, swaps) it's no a strong enough reason to pick that champion. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
In DotA your carries shouldn't die in 4 seconds in most cases, as a "caster" (as in int hero) your right clicks can still hurt (see QoP or Storm), and there are much more powerful abilities to protect cc'd allies (LoL basically has Fate's Call, Intervention, Chronoshift, Tempered Fate, and shields/heals/Crucible, DotA also has stuff such as Force Staff). On another note, what do people do with mages now that utility masteries have taken a swing of the nerf bat? After 2 minutes in lane, 75 mana is strictly worse than the old regen mastery, so for a lot of champions (Viktor, Brand, Orianna, I assume Lux, etc.) it's bad and you hit mana issues. Is it worse enough to warrant going def. instead? | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 09 2015 23:25 Alaric wrote: Also it doesn't work like in DotA simply because the fights are usually decided much faster in LoL, even in a tanky meta such as atm. In DotA your carries shouldn't die in 4 seconds in most cases, as a "caster" (as in int hero) your right clicks can still hurt (see QoP or Storm), and there are much more powerful abilities to protect cc'd allies (LoL basically has Fate's Call, Intervention, Chronoshift, Tempered Fate, and shields/heals/Crucible, DotA also has stuff such as Force Staff). On another note, what do people do with mages now that utility masteries have taken a swing of the nerf bat? After 2 minutes in lane, 75 mana is strictly worse than the old regen mastery, so for a lot of champions (Viktor, Brand, Orianna, I assume Lux, etc.) it's bad and you hit mana issues. Is it worse enough to warrant going def. instead? I'm not sure I agree on the mana department. Regening 75 mana from 3mp5 take over 2 minutes. Especially when there's so many other standard mana regen sources. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
And that's as soon as you start casting, so you'll morre likely than not stay in lane till after 4 minutes. Unless you pick mana regen as your first buy (so grail or tear ("regen") since noone starts idol), it's still strictly worse even after that. On champions with high costs the 75 mana isn't even a single spell. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 10 2015 01:49 Alaric wrote: 3mp5 = 36 mana per minute, so 72 in 2 minutes, you'd be nitpicking saying "it needs 5 more seconds than that to beat the mastery!" And that's as soon as you start casting, so you'll morre likely than not stay in lane till after 4 minutes. Unless you pick mana regen as your first buy (so grail or tear ("regen") since noone starts idol), it's still strictly worse even after that. On champions with high costs the 75 mana isn't even a single spell. No, I just stated the fact that it took over 2 minutes. You're the one inferring that I'm trying to be misleading about how long "over" amount to. Grail makes up for the lack of flat regen by increasing the effects of the % regen. Tear mages tend to care more about the size of their mana pool than the piddling amount of regen. There's so many sources of regen in the early game that if a player needs the extra 3mp5, they were probably managing it poorly anyway. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On June 09 2015 22:44 Seuss wrote: The "long duration, instant silences" point just took me back to S1. Memories. Riot has been systematically reducing the power of single target hard CC for quite some time. The 3 second silences, taunts, fears, and stuns have been slowly removed or reduced. The longest remaining single target hard CCs are Rammus' Taunt and Fiddlesticks' Fear at 2.25 seconds, but few last longer than 1.5. AoE CC hasn't been proportionally affected, so it's no surprise we see so much of it in competitive play. Unless you have an exceptional form of single target CC (e.g. hooks, swaps) it's no a strong enough reason to pick that champion. is ashe arrow no longer 3s at max range? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
3.5, but since it's duration is variable I assume he's taking the average of 2 1/8. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On June 09 2015 18:32 Alaric wrote: In early laning, knowing Ryze/Yorick (pre-Tear)/Kayle can run out of mana to cast their stuff (her ult, in Kayle's case) can allow you to punish them, especially in hard match-ups, and use that one opportunity to pull ahead. A bit like Vlad blowing pool too early in a match-up he'd have no business to lose otherwise, and getting killed. 'cept you can't because Ryze's Q (and E since it's still at level 1) cost basically nothing for 200+ damage trades w/o autos, Kayle can't always ult herself and make you lose the fight, and unless Ekko is so low that even post-ult he's going to die you need to perma-cc him to get rid of him at 6, which generally isn't available. Kayle's ultimate has no mana cost... The problem in my opinion is primarily how easy to it is to utilize his passive (compared to Gnar for instance Ryze can pretty much on the flip of a switch instantly go godmode whenever he wants) secondly there is of course near perma root, which aside from being broken as hell is the most anti-fun mechanic League has had in a long long time. ------ I really like the new mana mastery, at least as a support player I'd much rather be 100% to have the mana "now" instead of having to wait for regen to kick in and considering the "wasted" regeneration when your mana bar is maxed (which it pretty much always for at least the first 2 minutes in every game and after every recall) it makes for a pretty strong mastery -- just like how Veteran Scars is a million times better than Recovery. After changes to how regen works items make regen from runes/masteries fairly insignificant very early anyway. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
That's about the same as laning vs Katarina early on (or Zed in general): you poked her down, but you know you don't have the mana for a full rotation while she doesn't care about that, so you have to wait and regen/last hit with your dring/level up so you can get some mana back. Managed to lose twice with Ryze today. Turns out he can't literally 1v5 when you ping Orianna's ball left on the ground but three people are standing on it four seconds later. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Ashe's arrow is 1-3.5s, reaching maximum stun at 2800 range. Assuming the stun duration scales linearly it reaches 2.25s at 1400 range. I'd say most Ashe arrows land from significantly shorter than that, but you can argue it still remains a notable counter-example. Back on the main line of the discussion, I think OhTwoMise's point about silences is a really good observation. The only long duration, single target silence in the game got removed with Soraka's rework (replaced with an area silence). Outside of Soraka your only silences are Cho'gath, Blitzcrank (whose ult hardly counts save as an interrupt), Fiddlesticks, Malzahar, and Garen. In fact, no new silences have been added since LeBlanc (released in November 2010!) and hers was removed a year ago. Similarly no point and click hard CC has been added since Lulu (2012), and it's a weakish stun of sorts since its target can still move. Meanwhile Sion, Soraka, and arguably Xerath lost their point and click CCs. | ||
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Chemiczny84
Poland458 Posts
On June 10 2015 03:09 Seuss wrote: I actually didn't account for that since I was primarily looking at support/top/jungle champions. Ashe's arrow is 1-3.5s, reaching maximum stun at 2800 range. Assuming the stun duration scales linearly it reaches 2.25s at 1400 range. I'd say most Ashe arrows land from significantly shorter than that, but you can argue it still remains a notable counter-example. Back on the main line of the discussion, I think OhTwoMise's point about silences is a really good observation. The only long duration, single target silence in the game got removed with Soraka's rework (replaced with an area silence). Outside of Soraka your only silences are Cho'gath, Blitzcrank (whose ult hardly counts save as an interrupt), Fiddlesticks, Malzahar, and Garen. In fact, no new silences have been added since LeBlanc (released in November 2010!) and hers was removed a year ago. Similarly no point and click hard CC has been added since Lulu (2012), and it's a weakish stun of sorts since its target can still move. Meanwhile Sion, Soraka, and arguably Xerath lost their point and click CCs. I agree with almost the whole post and don't like this trend, just to nitpick, quinn was released way after lulu and her e is point and click cc | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
In terms of Lulu with her transformation CC it's meant more-so as a way to silence, slow, and in some cases interrupt the person she's targeting (ie., Kat ult). But her ulti can also provide a form of CC in the case of it's knockup, and while it's not as outwardly detrimental as the W it's still another form of CC in her kit. The point-and-click stuns/snares have generally been turned into skillshots because it allows for an outplay (by fact of simply dodging/flashing away from them) and it's easier to balance a skill shot than point-and-click damage/CC. Edit: In response to Quinn's "point and click" CC it's a damage skill that slows, slightly knocks the target back (so like a .5s stun at most?), and gets marked by her passive so Quinn can attack and get a nice little burst of damage done. Most people end up using it as an escape and not as a way to blow someone up. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On June 10 2015 04:24 Kinie wrote: Riot's said multiple times in recent memory that various forms of hard CC (in this case, silences, fears and stuns) are "unfun" because it doesn't allow the other player a chance to react/counter the all-in/trade. In terms of Lulu with her transformation CC it's meant more-so as a way to silence, slow, and in some cases interrupt the person she's targeting (ie., Kat ult). But her ulti can also provide a form of CC in the case of it's knockup, and while it's not as outwardly detrimental as the W it's still another form of CC in her kit. The point-and-click stuns/snares have generally been turned into skillshots because it allows for an outplay (by fact of simply dodging/flashing away from them) and it's easier to balance a skill shot than point-and-click damage/CC. Edit: In response to Quinn's "point and click" CC it's a damage skill that slows, slightly knocks the target back (so like a .5s stun at most?), and gets marked by her passive so Quinn can attack and get a nice little burst of damage done. Most people end up using it as an escape and not as a way to blow someone up. I'm familiar with Riot's reasoning behind this design direction, but I think in the context of CarnivorousSheep's complaint about the meaning of "outplay" and OhTwoMise's point about the consequences of lacking single target silences we can see that Riot's philosophy isn't without its problems. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
If everything is reliable, then nothing is. Since most older champions have 'reliable' CC, Riot wants an environment which the unreliable versions exist as a contrast to the reliable ones. | ||
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