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On October 14 2015 13:57 krndandaman wrote:
I don't think Turtle is terrible and definitely can be a very good adc but his season was pretty bad.
The only adc he did more % of team's damage than was otter. He was #1 in % of team's deaths. Dead last in kill participation. GD@10 was only ahead of Apollo/Otter.
This guy was the bottom of nearly every single stat. Stats aren't everything but it's a 'worrying trend' to have the most % of deaths on the team, while outputting some of the lowest % of team's damage, AND participating in a very small number of kills.
Not only that, his laning was very weak as indicated from GD@10.
His season really sucked.
source: oracleselixir
When you're an ADC stats are pretty indicative of quality. Some exceptions can be made when teams play around different lanes more, but not to the extent that Turtle has dropped to.
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I agree that TSM doesn't utilize Turtle well and I think a lot of "his" problems stem from having Lustboy as support and overall team related stuff.
He does get caught sometimes but I don't think that's a big deal tbh. He shows up when it counts.
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On October 14 2015 13:57 krndandaman wrote:
I don't think Turtle is terrible and definitely can be a very good adc but his season was pretty bad.
And that's fine and all that he CAN be very good but he didn't have poor weeks, he had a poor overall year which is an enormous amount of time. There's no excuse for not at the very least forcing him to compete for his roster spot. I have no issues with also trying him out with other supports (which basically consist of Bunny and Adrian I guess?) to see if Lustboy is the bigger issue but I'd rather get rid of Turtle than not.
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Turtle is serviceable. On a different team I think he will shine.
I think it's a combination of Lustboy not synergizing with Turtle (languange barrier and what not) and lack of better training/coaching.
Also like many analysts have said, TSM has shotcalling and communication issues. I think they are as a team afraid of failures and thus not willing to make high percentage plays when behind (unlike C9).
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On October 14 2015 14:35 LimpingGoat wrote:
I agree that TSM doesn't utilize Turtle well and I think a lot of "his" problems stem from having Lustboy as support and overall team related stuff.
He does get caught sometimes but I don't think that's a big deal tbh. He shows up when it counts.
Yeah, he totally showed up in the LCS finals against CLG and at Worlds, right?
Also, nice deflecting the blame onto Lustboy. Taken to that argument's logical conclusion, you're just saying that WildTurtle looked good because he was paired with Xpecial for over a year. A lot of decent ADCs would look strong with peak Xpecial. I mean, christ, look at who Freeze and Forg1ven have dominated lanes with. They've never laned with previous top 4 KR supports or top 2 western supports, and yet they remained relevant.
And if you want to go into communication issues, then that's easily as much his issue as Lustboy's. But Lustboy was still a top 4 support in spring, long after WT left the top 4 ADCs, just based on his overall map impact.
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On October 14 2015 15:04 Sufficiency wrote:
Turtle is serviceable. On a different team I think he will shine.
I think it's a combination of Lustboy not synergizing with Turtle (languange barrier and what not) and lack of better training/coaching.
Also like many analysts have said, TSM has shotcalling and communication issues. I think they are as a team afraid of failures and thus not willing to make high percentage plays when behind (unlike C9).
Maybe. If they get a strong carry top laner and upgrade both jungle and support, then maybe he can be fixed. But finding good players at that many roles is tough. Freeze is clearly a significant enough improvement to warrant grabbing or in the least trying. Maybe they could steal Impact but there are language issues there as well. When there are so many pieces that need upgrades in order to compete on the world stage it's hard top put your finger on the exact problem. Combining those issues with balancing the 2 foreigner limitation is pretty tough honestly. I think Lustboy is probably the best of the pieces needing improvement; I don't think he's perfect and he's definitely left players to be on an island inexplicably. I just don't think TSM is likely to gain anything (and would likely lose more) by replacing him.
The current meta is geared towards carrying from side lanes: specifically, managing XP and gold for ADC/Top. As TSM is not suited towards that it makes those lanes look worse overall. But that's still not an excuse for Turtle as Dyrus generally was the one they were shafting in how the dealt with lane swap scenarios.
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The trouble is even Turtle at his best won't make a good supportive adc. Supportive adcs need impeccable positioning and game sense, and those are Turtles weakest traits. Even if TSM get a carry top laner and/or jungle Turtles game will need to evolve and I just don't think he has that style in him.
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I don't really see where turtle's terrible positioning and lack of map awareness has to do with lustboy or coaching. I guess these are most likely the same people that said Dyrus wasn't a bad player and it was just TSM leaving him on an island. Turns out other top laners are able to not feed when left on an island! Fans are so weird. Don't you want your team to be good? Why do you want to keep bad players?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 14 2015 17:43 Numy wrote:
I don't really see where turtle's terrible positioning and lack of map awareness has to do with lustboy or coaching. I guess these are most likely the same people that said Dyrus wasn't a bad player and it was just TSM leaving him on an island. Turns out other top laners are able to not feed when left on an island! Fans are so weird. Don't you want your team to be good? Why do you want to keep bad players?
Indeed. Objectively, Freeze is an upgrade on WT regardless of your estimation of WT.
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On October 14 2015 17:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 17:43 Numy wrote:
I don't really see where turtle's terrible positioning and lack of map awareness has to do with lustboy or coaching. I guess these are most likely the same people that said Dyrus wasn't a bad player and it was just TSM leaving him on an island. Turns out other top laners are able to not feed when left on an island! Fans are so weird. Don't you want your team to be good? Why do you want to keep bad players? Indeed. Objectively, Freeze is an upgrade on WT regardless of your estimation of WT.
Dyrus just sucks, if he at least carried games like Darien then his feeding might have been considered acceptable (not really though) but as he is now, he's just a leaking hole in TSM.
Freeze is pretty awesome. The thing I'm hoping for is him bringing some of his original picks, there aren't many Draven players out there (we might even get to see his MF). But I don't want to see Freeze with Lustboy the way he is now, his Worlds play was atrocious.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Team ROCCAT's FaceBook.
Jankos and Vander will stay with ROCCAT for 2016 as well.
Seems like ROCCAT is going to be first to start practicing again, hopefully, results will be better, lol.
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On October 14 2015 16:17 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 15:04 Sufficiency wrote:
Turtle is serviceable. On a different team I think he will shine.
I think it's a combination of Lustboy not synergizing with Turtle (languange barrier and what not) and lack of better training/coaching.
Also like many analysts have said, TSM has shotcalling and communication issues. I think they are as a team afraid of failures and thus not willing to make high percentage plays when behind (unlike C9). Maybe. If they get a strong carry top laner and upgrade both jungle and support, then maybe he can be fixed. But finding good players at that many roles is tough. Freeze is clearly a significant enough improvement to warrant grabbing or in the least trying. Maybe they could steal Impact but there are language issues there as well. When there are so many pieces that need upgrades in order to compete on the world stage it's hard top put your finger on the exact problem. Combining those issues with balancing the 2 foreigner limitation is pretty tough honestly. I think Lustboy is probably the best of the pieces needing improvement; I don't think he's perfect and he's definitely left players to be on an island inexplicably. I just don't think TSM is likely to gain anything (and would likely lose more) by replacing him. The current meta is geared towards carrying from side lanes: specifically, managing XP and gold for ADC/Top. As TSM is not suited towards that it makes those lanes look worse overall. But that's still not an excuse for Turtle as Dyrus generally was the one they were shafting in how the dealt with lane swap scenarios.
Here's my opinion: you can't just magically find the perfect player; all players, naturally talented or not, requires training in order to:
1. Mold into the team
2. Adapt to the ever-chaning meta and new styles of play.
Obviously I have no insider knowledge of how TSM works, but based on observations as an outsider and other experts, I feel that TSM just finds a bunch of good players and finger crossed that they perform. As one of the oldest and probably the greatest LoL franchise, I think it could have done a lot more than having regi micromanaging their coach and kicking off their analysts.
To TSM's defense, pretty much all other NA teams do this - and TSM is actually the more successful one if you compare TSM to the likes of CLG - a team that is infamous for getting good players then create an impossibly difficult situation for them to succeed in. That being said, the TSM environment is probably a toxic one -
where bjergsen overpowers all other players and the coach, the owner micromanages everyone, and individual players are more focused on their own performance than the success of the team.
As far as WT is concerned, I think his problem can be solved: he definitely has talent, but he also needs a team that can support him. But putting on Keith as a sub to "encourage" him feels like the heavy-handed approach regi loves and enjoys.
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As a player YB wasn't very good, but he sounds like a very likable person, coaching seems to be a good transition for him.
CW is an org that managed to really mess up their chances. So much talent slid through their fingers, and they still managed to botch it up.
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On October 14 2015 15:07 NotMeEver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 14:35 LimpingGoat wrote:
I agree that TSM doesn't utilize Turtle well and I think a lot of "his" problems stem from having Lustboy as support and overall team related stuff.
He does get caught sometimes but I don't think that's a big deal tbh. He shows up when it counts. Yeah, he totally showed up in the LCS finals against CLG and at Worlds, right? Also, nice deflecting the blame onto Lustboy. Taken to that argument's logical conclusion, you're just saying that WildTurtle looked good because he was paired with Xpecial for over a year. A lot of decent ADCs would look strong with peak Xpecial. I mean, christ, look at who Freeze and Forg1ven have dominated lanes with. They've never laned with previous top 4 KR supports or top 2 western supports, and yet they remained relevant. And if you want to go into communication issues, then that's easily as much his issue as Lustboy's. But Lustboy was still a top 4 support in spring, long after WT left the top 4 ADCs, just based on his overall map impact.
He actually did. I guess not winning = a player didn't show up, right?
That isn't the argument's logical conclusion, the logical conclusion is that if you replace Lustboy with a support that WildTurtle has better synergy and communication with, his performance might look a lot better, as it has in the past with a support he could communicate well with.
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He still randomly got caught and positioned badly in fights when he had a support he could communicate better with though? I don't really see how either of those things has to do with communication between support.
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On October 14 2015 23:41 Numy wrote:
He still randomly got caught and positioned badly in fights when he had a support he could communicate better with though? I don't really see how either of those things has to do with communication between support.
But, but, Wildturtle was really good in Season 3 and early Season 4! There's no way he has individual performance problems that negatively influence his team's results!
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On October 14 2015 23:41 Numy wrote:
He still randomly got caught and positioned badly in fights when he had a support he could communicate better with though? I don't really see how either of those things has to do with communication between support.
WT plays very aggressively since his debut. I still remember his first LCS game where he made some very aggressive and borderline questionable decisions (I think deman casted that game) but got a pentakill anyway. IIRC TSM basically played along with WT and his aggression to complement his playstyle.
Playing aggressively is fine. In fact TSM probably needs more aggression in games. But I think the way he is performing now is a combination of his personal slump and bad team cohesion.
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Sure aggressive play can be nice however WT just doesn't have the fundamentals to back up that play. Look at someone like Imp. He's super aggressive when he wants to be but also knows not to get randomly caught on the map that he has no business being. Freeze essentially is a better version of WT. He can be aggressive, knows how to position and knows when not to be aggressive. I can understand if they want to import 2 other positions than have to keep a NA ADC but even then you have someone like Altec you could poach who is less of a liability.
You know this kind of mirrors the Woolite situation. No matter how good a player is you just can't expect a team to be able to perform if 4 players are sitting on a ticking time bomb that may just throw away all the advantage they have built by being an idiot. It's better just to find someone that you can trust even if his "peaks" are lower.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
More facebook posts tonight.
Forg1ven isn't retiring but donezo with low-tier teams. Calls Gambit as best org he played in as well, doesn't expose Riot for suspension.
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EPT
