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On December 28 2014 00:49 739 wrote:
Coaching is only fine in Poker IMO. I don't get how can u pay for coaching in esports, especially in a game like LoL.
Because, you pay for knowledge you do not possess. I don't fucking get, how Poker is a sport appropriate for coaching (a sports game) and League of Legends (an electronic sports game) isn't. It's the same fucking thing!
Coaching is hard and that's why it's so inferior in LoL compared to Poker. Poker has been around for God knows how many years, while League of Legends has been a success for roughly 3-4 years now.
The knowledge you value today could be useless information tomorrow. That's why coaching is a hard profession and why you rarely hear of good coaches in any type of sports. But those that go beyond the knowledge of everyone, those who teach what nobody else does, are those that go higher. That's why you see generations still excelling at great sports, like Peter Schmeichel (Danish Goal Keeper) passing it on to his son or the Manning family in NFL.
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On December 28 2014 01:18 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 01:06 Volband wrote:On December 28 2014 01:02 Scip wrote:
Curious just how unimpressive your statement of "every single statistic" sounds now that you have listed them out The statistics about each region's playerbase of which league they are in is more than enough, and you have nothing to back your fairy tale up, so theres zhat as well I dont understand what you're trying to say
On December 28 2014 01:07 nafta wrote:
Can you also give us a statistic of how many games people in bronze/silver on average have and people in diamond?
I don't understand why reksai works.So many people ban her yet every time I have played vs her she did absolutely nothing so confused.
I'm saying if you think just by spamming games you'll reach the stars you are delusional. But I see you found a follower, so let it be your mindset. You are the reason 1k games played silver and bronze players do not give up, while the smart ones actually realize how stupid it is, and look for ways to coach themselves. Playing with a better friend, asking a better friend advices, spectating games from the client, watching streamers, watching streamers who also explain stuff, or just simply copying champions and builds from tournaments.
I'm somewhat surprised such an empty statement like that can be read here, let alone being supported by someone else as well. Must be fun to be a lower level guy here, asking for questions.
- Guys, I'm constantly losing my lane for some reason, any help?
- Just play.
- But I did, it's my 10th loss in a row with the same champion.
- Np, 11th is the charm.
- Can you at least look at my replay?
- Not needed, just queue up bro.
- All right, at least check if my cs is fine.
- I won't. If it's not fine, it will be 100 games later, trust me. Maybe 200.
- All right, but please tell me what to build, I feel like my item build is terrible. I start out strong but every time I come back to lane I start losing.
- Don't worry about it, during your 500th game you will suddenly realize what's the most optimal buy for the situation.
- Oh, all right thanks, you are my hero!
If you don't see how absurd it is, I can't really say much. You are either lower level yourself, or just forgot where you came from.
edit: okay, calling you specifically the reason was a bit harsh, it doesn't sound like I wanted it to while re-reading it.
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It's OK this forum is really bad when it comes to unconstructive criticism.
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Eli Manning has been the worst starting qb statistically for three or four years. He's built well and had an amazing defense with a botched call at the end of a Super Bowl which means he cannot be fired.
I agree coaching and upbringing are important traits but Eli isn't your best example in US sports. If there was only one Manning son it's great example but Peyton has a brother in the NFL.
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Well no I asked because I was curious since most people I have seen in bronze/silver just have <50 games and most people I know learned by just spamming games.Like reading guides and copying everything helps but without the games played the information doesn't help either.
I for example have never really looked at guides about league but I learned so much in general from watching day9 daylies about broodwar.
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On December 28 2014 02:16 nafta wrote:
Well no I asked because I was curious since most people I have seen in bronze/silver just have <50 games and most people I know learned by just spamming games.Like reading guides and copying everything helps but without the games played the information doesn't help either.
I for example have never really looked at guides about league but I learned so much in general from watching day9 daylies about broodwar.
Spamming games IS important, but that alone won't get you too far, unless you already have the knowledge. And you would be terrified if you'd know how many people are stuck under gold (or even low gold) with a LOT of games played. They are the ones usually you can't really talk to about this, because they have their own world, where nothing is their fault but the magical expression's we can't use here. You see, they do believe if they keep playing another 500 games they will get better. And they still get surprised when they actually got to a lower division after all those games.
I know too many examples for this to take such a statement seriously, not to mention my own experience.
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On December 28 2014 01:18 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 00:49 739 wrote:
Coaching is only fine in Poker IMO. I don't get how can u pay for coaching in esports, especially in a game like LoL. Because, you pay for knowledge you do not possess. I don't fucking get, how Poker is a sport appropriate for coaching (a sports game) and League of Legends (an electronic sports game) isn't. It's the same fucking thing!Coaching is hard and that's why it's so inferior in LoL compared to Poker. Poker has been around for God knows how many years, while League of Legends has been a success for roughly 3-4 years now. The knowledge you value today could be useless information tomorrow. That's why coaching is a hard profession and why you rarely hear of good coaches in any type of sports. But those that go beyond the knowledge of everyone, those who teach what nobody else does, are those that go higher. That's why you see generations still excelling at great sports, like Peter Schmeichel (Danish Goal Keeper) passing it on to his son or the Manning family in NFL.
But you are talking about professional coaches here. I was referring to solo queue mainly. Take you, for an example: high challenger, accomplished player. Take some guy from bronze 4 with 600 games played this season 400 in s3, but he is willing to cooperate and does not have any disabilities hindering his play. At the very very very worst you could get that guy into gold in a few months, without investing too much time in him. If you also has some talent in coaching, it might be even less, if you are absolutely terrible at it, it might be a little more. Still, you see, if you'd even take it seriously, you could get anyone into diamond who meets the criteria.
Given how even Diamond is like... what, 2-3% of the player base, you could make the easiest money if you'd start coaching for real.
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On December 28 2014 02:12 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 01:18 Scip wrote:On December 28 2014 01:06 Volband wrote:On December 28 2014 01:02 Scip wrote:
Curious just how unimpressive your statement of "every single statistic" sounds now that you have listed them out The statistics about each region's playerbase of which league they are in is more than enough, and you have nothing to back your fairy tale up, so theres zhat as well I dont understand what you're trying to say Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 01:07 nafta wrote:
Can you also give us a statistic of how many games people in bronze/silver on average have and people in diamond?
I don't understand why reksai works.So many people ban her yet every time I have played vs her she did absolutely nothing so confused. I'm saying if you think just by spamming games you'll reach the stars you are delusional. But I see you found a follower, so let it be your mindset. You are the reason 1k games played silver and bronze players do not give up, while the smart ones actually realize how stupid it is, and look for ways to coach themselves. Playing with a better friend, asking a better friend advices, spectating games from the client, watching streamers, watching streamers who also explain stuff, or just simply copying champions and builds from tournaments. I'm somewhat surprised such an empty statement like that can be read here, let alone being supported by someone else as well. Must be fun to be a lower level guy here, asking for questions. - Guys, I'm constantly losing my lane for some reason, any help? - Just play. - But I did, it's my 10th loss in a row with the same champion. - Np, 11th is the charm. - Can you at least look at my replay? - Not needed, just queue up bro. - All right, at least check if my cs is fine. - I won't. If it's not fine, it will be 100 games later, trust me. Maybe 200. - All right, but please tell me what to build, I feel like my item build is terrible. I start out strong but every time I come back to lane I start losing. - Don't worry about it, during your 500th game you will suddenly realize what's the most optimal buy for the situation. - Oh, all right thanks, you are my hero! If you don't see how absurd it is, I can't really say much. You are either lower level yourself, or just forgot where you came from. edit: okay, calling you specifically the reason was a bit harsh, it doesn't sound like I wanted it to while re-reading it.
Obviously you just don't understand what they mean because you haven't played enough games.
Once you've played 2000 ranked games, you'll start to get it.
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Most of the problems are people not using COMMON SENSE when they play a game where they can ACTIVELY REFLECT what they do every time they die or recall and buy.
Misbuilding is the first problem. Buying Athene's on a mage against either an AD midlaner or a high AD comp or even a comp which has (ok this is very, very rare) high healing is a good example of this.
Not warding on appropriate timings, not warding efficiently (bad places), not warding AT ALL, only 1 person on the team with sweeper, aka, general vision problems is another.
Going ham on the worst timings and botching skillshots or your combo, or misplaying skirmishes are another. This is a little more skillbased and relies heavily on how well you know your own champ, the enemy champs, the cooldowns and the overall timing of summoners.
Lastly there is mistiming and bad judgement of when to go for certain objectives. Throws are made just chasing kills, taking baron/dragons at bad timings.
Like I understand that not playing out a fight well won't make you understand WHY you played it badly necessarily, but building wrongly, or getting objectives when you can is simply using your brain, not reflexes or faking out your opponents.
Most people are bad because they can't use their brain. And this is a big requirement on how to improve on the game.
As an example, I have this friend I play with. He's horrible. I explain him each time what he does is bad and how he should change his play if he wants to succeed. He seems to listen every single time. But here's the thing. He doesn't actually listen to the advice I've given to him countless times and he keeps being a bad player. He is conviced of his own ways and stubbornness actually prevents him from playing better. I'm done trying to give him feedback because literally every time I watch him play the only thing I do is sigh myself out of breath the entire game long. Watching him play the game is like experiencing a reality where gravity is going sideways untill it curls back up into itself after a while: nonsensical
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On December 28 2014 02:12 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 01:18 Scip wrote:On December 28 2014 01:06 Volband wrote:On December 28 2014 01:02 Scip wrote:
Curious just how unimpressive your statement of "every single statistic" sounds now that you have listed them out The statistics about each region's playerbase of which league they are in is more than enough, and you have nothing to back your fairy tale up, so theres zhat as well I dont understand what you're trying to say Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 01:07 nafta wrote:
Can you also give us a statistic of how many games people in bronze/silver on average have and people in diamond?
I don't understand why reksai works.So many people ban her yet every time I have played vs her she did absolutely nothing so confused. I'm saying if you think just by spamming games you'll reach the stars you are delusional. But I see you found a follower, so let it be your mindset. You are the reason 1k games played silver and bronze players do not give up, while the smart ones actually realize how stupid it is, and look for ways to coach themselves. Playing with a better friend, asking a better friend advices, spectating games from the client, watching streamers, watching streamers who also explain stuff, or just simply copying champions and builds from tournaments. I'm somewhat surprised such an empty statement like that can be read here, let alone being supported by someone else as well. Must be fun to be a lower level guy here, asking for questions. - Guys, I'm constantly losing my lane for some reason, any help? - Just play. - But I did, it's my 10th loss in a row with the same champion. - Np, 11th is the charm. - Can you at least look at my replay? - Not needed, just queue up bro. - All right, at least check if my cs is fine. - I won't. If it's not fine, it will be 100 games later, trust me. Maybe 200. - All right, but please tell me what to build, I feel like my item build is terrible. I start out strong but every time I come back to lane I start losing. - Don't worry about it, during your 500th game you will suddenly realize what's the most optimal buy for the situation. - Oh, all right thanks, you are my hero! If you don't see how absurd it is, I can't really say much. You are either lower level yourself, or just forgot where you came from. edit: okay, calling you specifically the reason was a bit harsh, it doesn't sound like I wanted it to while re-reading it.
hoooly shit
just because some people are retarded enough to not understand how the process of learning by yourself works doesn't mean that watching challenger replays or coaching are the only ways to improve. Im not saying that having a coach is completely unhelpful, but you underestimate the fuck out of the possibility of learning by yourself.
nobodys saying that mindless grind is the answer either, now you're just making shit up. Learning by yourself doesn't mean giving up on thinking.
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On December 28 2014 02:58 Scip wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 28 2014 02:12 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 01:18 Scip wrote:On December 28 2014 01:06 Volband wrote:On December 28 2014 01:02 Scip wrote:
Curious just how unimpressive your statement of "every single statistic" sounds now that you have listed them out The statistics about each region's playerbase of which league they are in is more than enough, and you have nothing to back your fairy tale up, so theres zhat as well I dont understand what you're trying to say Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 01:07 nafta wrote:
Can you also give us a statistic of how many games people in bronze/silver on average have and people in diamond?
I don't understand why reksai works.So many people ban her yet every time I have played vs her she did absolutely nothing so confused. I'm saying if you think just by spamming games you'll reach the stars you are delusional. But I see you found a follower, so let it be your mindset. You are the reason 1k games played silver and bronze players do not give up, while the smart ones actually realize how stupid it is, and look for ways to coach themselves. Playing with a better friend, asking a better friend advices, spectating games from the client, watching streamers, watching streamers who also explain stuff, or just simply copying champions and builds from tournaments. I'm somewhat surprised such an empty statement like that can be read here, let alone being supported by someone else as well. Must be fun to be a lower level guy here, asking for questions. - Guys, I'm constantly losing my lane for some reason, any help? - Just play. - But I did, it's my 10th loss in a row with the same champion. - Np, 11th is the charm. - Can you at least look at my replay? - Not needed, just queue up bro. - All right, at least check if my cs is fine. - I won't. If it's not fine, it will be 100 games later, trust me. Maybe 200. - All right, but please tell me what to build, I feel like my item build is terrible. I start out strong but every time I come back to lane I start losing. - Don't worry about it, during your 500th game you will suddenly realize what's the most optimal buy for the situation. - Oh, all right thanks, you are my hero! If you don't see how absurd it is, I can't really say much. You are either lower level yourself, or just forgot where you came from. edit: okay, calling you specifically the reason was a bit harsh, it doesn't sound like I wanted it to while re-reading it . hoooly shit just because some people are retarded enough to not understand how the process of learning by yourself works doesn't mean that watching challenger replays or coaching are the only ways to improve. Im not saying that having a coach is completely unhelpful, but you underestimate the fuck out of the possibility of learning by yourself. nobodys saying that mindless grind is the answer either, now you're just making shit up. Learning by yourself doesn't mean giving up on thinking.
What this man preaches is correct. Strategy games require thinking. And the problem is too many people don't think (or at least not enough). Ofcourse there's a moment where thinking about certain things at first becomes motorized, but before you reah a certain level, thinking is necessity.
Also, there's a limit on howmuch info you can process at any given time or how hard you can outthink your opponent, this is why certain people won't improve when they've reached a certain point (analogous to hard limit in physical sports, example how fast someone can run with maximum amount of practise)
Ofcourse the beauty of games like this is it combines reflexes/dexterity with thinking, which makes it possible to divide the game into two branches, just like that episode of Thorin where he talks about mechanics.
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Lol is a strategy game. There are a lot of little intangibles or intricacies that can help you be a better player.
- Guys, I'm constantly losing my lane for some reason, any help?
Like for this quote, there's probably not just some reason, but many reasons such as warding, trading, cs'ing, watching the map, etc. It's up to the player to recognize these mistakes and try to get better than some of them.
Coming from Starcraft II, I do have to note that it's much harder to improve in LoL, because the absence of a good replay system, less high level commentary/analysis (ex. Day9 holy shit he will talk about one little nuance for 10+ mins that distinguishes a great player from a good player), and the crazy numbers of champions and matchups to master.
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Thorin's mechanics video is kind of a disappointment. He sits there and talks about how Genja and Sneaky have good mechanics but low skill (but the skill is made up with good mechanics because they don't try to play outside of their skill level?). But all that means is that they don't have great mechanics and they make up for it by playing more cerebral, positioning well, and avoiding the dangerous areas that players with better mechanics can succeed in. If they actually had better mechanics, they would be able to do the same things he talks about when discussing, for instance, Uzi.
His overarching point about separating mechanics and cerebral play is ok, but his examples don't match the message he's trying to get across. He talks about these players playing within their mechanical limitations, and then says they have good mechanics. But the reality is that they have weaker mechanics, recognize the fact, and so don't try to overstep their actual abilities (ie. strong cerebral play, like he says about Lemonation). I don't think he understands what mechanics actually are, which I believe is a touch ironic considering the point he's trying to get across.
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On December 28 2014 03:43 Nemireck wrote:
Thorin's mechanics video is kind of a disappointment. He sits there and talks about how Genja and Sneaky have good mechanics but low skill (but the skill is made up with good mechanics because they don't try to play outside of their skill level?). But all that means is that they don't have great mechanics and they make up for it by playing more cerebral, positioning well, and avoiding the dangerous areas that players with better mechanics can succeed in. If they actually had better mechanics, they would be able to do the same things he talks about when discussing, for instance, Uzi.
His overarching point about separating mechanics and cerebral play is ok, but his examples don't match the message he's trying to get across. He talks about these players playing within their mechanical limitations, and then says they have good mechanics. But the reality is that they have weaker mechanics, recognize the fact, and so don't try to overstep their actual abilities (ie. strong cerebral play, like he says about Lemonation). I don't think he understands what mechanics actually are, which I believe is a touch ironic considering the point he's trying to get across.
I was using his video as an example because he touched the aspect of having raw mechanical skill and being able to think about the game. To be honest I do kind of agree that his way he explained it all fell flat on its face because he failed to properly explain mechanics and strategy.
Everything can be a mechanic, but what kind mechanic people are talking about has to be specified more because it becomes a really loose term. And that problem he touches upon is good, but not playing outside of their skill level, isn't necessarily false. Just look at it from the analogy I provided a post back. Also, couple that to comfort zone or knowledge about the champ and you'll understand Thorin alot better.
Uzi might be the Bolt of sprinting. Doens't mean Genja isn't a champion at world level.
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Genja always looked differently, from other ADC's (especially when Asia boomed and joined the fun), because he has terrible mechanics, but makes up for it, by playing with his team and using superior positioning to his advantage. Given how the game developed when Koreans took over, it's easy to conclude why he was replaced.
I agree with Scip's PoV; you can, if you have the mental capacity, easily learn from your own mistakes, your own replays, without ever resorting to coaching/streams/etc.
It does however require you to have a brain.
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So, is caitlyn meta now? Or was CLG high and double just the best adc by far at Cologne?
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On December 28 2014 04:09 cLutZ wrote:
So, is caitlyn meta now? Or was CLG high and double just the best adc by far at Cologne?
Caitlyn is okay.
Probably cuz double can't play Corki. His Lucian got bopped by Pinoy's Graves too.
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shes the ziggs of botlane super safe long range carry with no lane counters will always be viable
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On December 28 2014 04:09 cLutZ wrote:
So, is caitlyn meta now? Or was CLG high and double just the best adc by far at Cologne?
Cait is one of dlifts best ADs. Cait has a high mechanical requirement and also has the ability to win lane really hard.
CLG is still, unfortunately, dlift focused and so dlift either needs champions he can leverage his mechanics on (cait->early lead->never stop fighting with advantage) or champions which have strong utility so that he doesn't have to farm as much and isn't as effected by the inevitable bottom lane camp.
I don't think dlift likes Ashe/varus/sivir as much and the lack of dashes really hurt them against the common j4 jungle picks so it's harder to grab those high utility ADs compared to luc/corki/cait/graves. Of which cait has the advantage in lane against the other three(if only slightly) which means dlift can abuse his early mechanical/laning advantage
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EPT
