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On October 08 2014 02:48 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 02:38 wei2coolman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:37 krndandaman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:35 Sufficiency wrote:On October 08 2014 02:31 krndandaman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:On October 08 2014 02:19 krndandaman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:16 Sufficiency wrote:
In competitive Lee Sin is almost first pick first ban, Elise is a fairly popular pick. On the other hand, Amumu/Sejuani/WW/Rammus are almost non heard of
In solo queue Lee/Elise has mid 40% win rate. And guess who wins a lot?
You can't equate what pros need and what solo queue players need. The same goes for items. You can't just say X is good in professional, premade games when voice comm and 0 lantecy is automatically goos in solo queue. It's a bit stretched. Yeah because surprise champions make up a teamcomp that determines their worth. If the same does go for items, can you please name another example where an item X is a must buy in competitive and isn't in soloqueue? Or the other way around? Isn't it more stretched that you're assuming voice com and latency makes an item that is bought 100% of the time in pro play become inferior to another item? Rengar. Competitve Rengar builds tanky for survivability. He is there to facilitate for his team, not to one shot people. In solo queue you try to carry so you build damage. You can't just rely on your teammates to do the damage. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/RengarHow come pros here are doing the soloqueue build and they aren't for janna? I don't see much tankiness in here at all. Interesting. You should just keep doing that Spellthief build then. and perhaps you should stop going coin. I think this is a far more reasonable proposition. I haven't seen a single convincing argument to suggest Spellthief is vastly superior like some people are claiming here. The best I can concede is that Spellthief is better in a match up that Janna is strong at, particularly Taric and maybe Leona. What I have seen so far are: 1. Pros do it. Must be good. 2. Spellthief gives more gold. But that's only in the best case scenario and Janna's kit is hard to make the best case scenario happen. 3. FQC has better active. But Talisman's active is extremely good as well. It's not very clear cut. 4. FQC gives AP and Talisman does not. This is fair and I am willing to concede on that. But sustain isn't garbage.
1 is a strong argument. Maybe not all the time and maybe not when theorycraft is contrary to it, but in this case the theorycraft supports it and it adds a lot of weight to what we're saying.
2 is the main argument that you're ignoring. Spellthief does give more gold. And not in just a "best case" scenario.
As we've said before, Spellthief gives 7 GP10 at max efficiency, Coin gives 4.2. This means that Spellthief gives equal gold when you're only being 60% efficient.
It's not difficult to be more than 60% efficient with Spellthief on Janna. Either you will trade with your opponent or your opponent will trade with you at least every other wave, and you will get the gold. And even that is assuming you're 100% efficient with Coin, which you won't be (for example, Spellthief builds charges while you're walking to lane from base or warding the river, while Coin doesn't give any gold during that time).
After laning ends, Spellthief becomes even better, because it generates gold for you while you're going around the map warding, while Coin requires you to stay with one of your laners in order to get gold which you don't want to be doing after laning ends.
Even if Spellthief is rarely perfectly efficient, it should always be giving more gold than Coin if you're playing properly, and you can easily corroborate this by actually looking at games where one support builds Spellthief and the other builds Talisman. The Spellthief support always gets more gold from their item.
You could even point out that Riot straight up said that they designed Spellthief to give the most gold of the three items and Coin to give the least.
3 is a pretty weak argument, I think Talisman has the better active personally, but Spellthief's active is good enough that the better gold generation and better stats are more desirable.
4 is another strong argument. AP is simply better on Janna than HP regen and movespeed is, especially because AP gives Janna sustain and movespeed.
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On October 08 2014 03:08 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 03:05 Doctorbeat wrote:On October 08 2014 03:01 Alzadar wrote:
Annie Picks at S3 Worlds:
Royal Club: 2-0 (banned against them nearly every game after Quarters)
Gamania Bears: 0-1
TSM: 0-1 Tabe op pls nerf Rito I've had 6 beers, soloq or nay? Only if you stream.
Don't have it set up. Got OBS but never bothered to do evereything
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Beers will make soloq bearable, go for it!
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On October 08 2014 03:09 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 02:48 Sufficiency wrote:On October 08 2014 02:38 wei2coolman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:37 krndandaman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:35 Sufficiency wrote:On October 08 2014 02:31 krndandaman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:22 Sufficiency wrote:On October 08 2014 02:19 krndandaman wrote:On October 08 2014 02:16 Sufficiency wrote:
In competitive Lee Sin is almost first pick first ban, Elise is a fairly popular pick. On the other hand, Amumu/Sejuani/WW/Rammus are almost non heard of
In solo queue Lee/Elise has mid 40% win rate. And guess who wins a lot?
You can't equate what pros need and what solo queue players need. The same goes for items. You can't just say X is good in professional, premade games when voice comm and 0 lantecy is automatically goos in solo queue. It's a bit stretched. Yeah because surprise champions make up a teamcomp that determines their worth. If the same does go for items, can you please name another example where an item X is a must buy in competitive and isn't in soloqueue? Or the other way around? Isn't it more stretched that you're assuming voice com and latency makes an item that is bought 100% of the time in pro play become inferior to another item? Rengar. Competitve Rengar builds tanky for survivability. He is there to facilitate for his team, not to one shot people. In solo queue you try to carry so you build damage. You can't just rely on your teammates to do the damage. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/RengarHow come pros here are doing the soloqueue build and they aren't for janna? I don't see much tankiness in here at all. Interesting. You should just keep doing that Spellthief build then. and perhaps you should stop going coin. I think this is a far more reasonable proposition. I haven't seen a single convincing argument to suggest Spellthief is vastly superior like some people are claiming here. The best I can concede is that Spellthief is better in a match up that Janna is strong at, particularly Taric and maybe Leona. What I have seen so far are: 1. Pros do it. Must be good. 2. Spellthief gives more gold. But that's only in the best case scenario and Janna's kit is hard to make the best case scenario happen. 3. FQC has better active. But Talisman's active is extremely good as well. It's not very clear cut. 4. FQC gives AP and Talisman does not. This is fair and I am willing to concede on that. But sustain isn't garbage. 1 is a strong argument. Maybe not all the time and maybe not when theorycraft is contrary to it, but in this case the theorycraft supports it and it adds a lot of weight to what we're saying. 2 is the main argument that you're ignoring. Spellthief does give more gold. And not in just a "best case" scenario. As we've said before, Spellthief gives 7 GP10 at max efficiency, Coin gives 4.2. This means that Spellthief gives equal gold when you're only being 60% efficient. It's not difficult to be more than 60% efficient with Spellthief on Janna. Either you will trade with your opponent or your opponent will trade with you at least every other wave, and you will get the gold. And even that is assuming you're 100% efficient with Coin, which you won't be (for example, Spellthief builds charges while you're walking to lane from base or warding the river, while Coin doesn't give any gold during that time). After laning ends, Spellthief becomes even better, because it generates gold for you while you're going around the map warding, while Coin requires you to stay with one of your laners in order to get gold which you don't want to be doing after laning ends. Even if Spellthief is rarely perfectly efficient, it should always be giving more gold than Coin if you're playing properly, and you can easily corroborate this by actually looking at games where one support builds Spellthief and the other builds Talisman. The Spellthief support always gets more gold from their item. You could even point out that Riot straight up said that they designed Spellthief to give the most gold of the three items and Coin to give the least. 3 is a pretty weak argument, I think Talisman has the better active personally, but Spellthief's active is good enough that the better gold generation and better stats are more desirable. 4 is another strong argument. AP is simply better on Janna than HP regen and movespeed is, especially because AP gives Janna sustain and movespeed.
Thanks I will keep in mind.
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On October 08 2014 03:13 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 03:08 Sufficiency wrote:On October 08 2014 03:05 Doctorbeat wrote:On October 08 2014 03:01 Alzadar wrote:
Annie Picks at S3 Worlds:
Royal Club: 2-0 (banned against them nearly every game after Quarters)
Gamania Bears: 0-1
TSM: 0-1 Tabe op pls nerf Rito I've had 6 beers, soloq or nay? Only if you stream. Don't have it set up. Got OBS but never bothered to do evereything
Well you better get to it then.
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France45622 Posts
On October 08 2014 02:48 Alzadar wrote:
Royal brought out Annie support for like 2-3 games at S3 Worlds, and then it was banned every game after that. Support Annie was not popular in Season 3.
Royal used it in LPL. It's just it went in soloQ during worlds (where it was super popular because "new", think rework or champ release popularity).
Wanna know what makes Janna good in lane? A camping jungler. We trashed the fuck out of their lane then my AD didn't react to the gank and we had to back, so they made up the farm difference. But with his spellthief he was forced to shield himself whenever he wanted to harass us, which meant that until Tristana got enough levels that I couldn't get to her anymore because of her passive (which comes earlier because Janna's passive is a damn bitch to play against, I find it much more annoying than her W for example) I'd just trash her instead.
And they were premade so they were supposed to be coordinated about that.
After laning ends, Spellthief becomes even better, because it generates gold for you while you're going around the map warding, while Coin requires you to stay with one of your laners in order to get gold which you don't want to be doing after laning ends.
I just... what. Whatever, I'd rather not send that fucking "topic" flying again. But don't go "it has 2gp10 to 0 it's better!" especially after you already gave Goumindong the "numbers without context mean nothing" talk.
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On October 08 2014 03:21 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 03:13 Doctorbeat wrote:On October 08 2014 03:08 Sufficiency wrote:On October 08 2014 03:05 Doctorbeat wrote:On October 08 2014 03:01 Alzadar wrote:
Annie Picks at S3 Worlds:
Royal Club: 2-0 (banned against them nearly every game after Quarters)
Gamania Bears: 0-1
TSM: 0-1 Tabe op pls nerf Rito I've had 6 beers, soloq or nay? Only if you stream. Don't have it set up. Got OBS but never bothered to do evereything Well you better get to it then.
Honestly I can't. I literally can't.
Those 6 beers were within 1 hour too.
Had a birthday of a friend = 'woman' in faculty bar for €6.50. Woman meaning 30 beer. And bar isonly open for 2 hours total.
Joke is that our faculty has no women. Electrical Engineering, forever alone. Unless we go looking for BMT (Biomed Technology) or ID (Industrial Design) babes.
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On October 08 2014 03:29 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 02:48 Alzadar wrote:
Royal brought out Annie support for like 2-3 games at S3 Worlds, and then it was banned every game after that. Support Annie was not popular in Season 3. Royal used it in LPL. It's just it went in soloQ during worlds (where it was super popular because "new", think rework or champ release popularity).
This may be a NA vs EU thing, but I'm pretty sure Annie support did not become popular in soloQ for several months after worlds (i.e. Season 4).
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
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France45622 Posts
The jungle is already too difficult to be taken on without a specific item, the fuck are they on about.
Also I already feel really bad about these rewards. Sounds way too complex when what the game needs would be simpler stuff imo. The simpler and clearer, the easier you can look at it.
You could reduce smite's damage further, but its cooldown along with it (so it can be used twice on a buff camp during the first clear to make up for the reduced damage), and make it so killing a monster with smite gives more gold for example.
Obviously it's very flawed as is, but there are levers:
- you tie the jungler mechanics to the jungler thing (smite) rather than creating all these rules with conservations stacks and wriggle's gold and stuff which force junglers to build these items too.
- with a low enough cooldown, you get rewarded for farming a bunch and it helps tankier junglers who can clear more easily (it also increases the single target damage, letting you balance more easily the camps around being more like wraiths, or golems, for clear speeds depending on single-target/aoe clear), but you also tie more gold to "do a camp whenever smite is up, gank the rest of the time" playstyle which would yield more gold than currently.
TL;DR it's obviously flawed but at least it'd be more elegant than the forceful path we currently have, and which they seem determined to keep going on.
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we want to create a world where a player can pick up Xin Zhao, Warwick, or Hecarim in the jungle just as easily as they can find a place for Elise, Lee Sin, or Kha’Zix
What does this mean? I would have thought they were contrasting the popular ganking junglers with others, but Xin and Hecarim are definitely both ganking junglers. Xin is basically the Lee sans skillshots, they play nearly the same.
But in general sounds like they want more Machete build paths with specific specialization towards counter-jungling vs ganking vs farming.
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I never stopped playing hecarim as my #1 or 2 jungler :/
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I stopped taking it seriously after this gem here:
This season, a jungler’s perceived strength is largely tied to their ability to gank. While there are those who are functionally better at clearing / counter-jungling / objective control than others, the impact that ganking junglers have can really overshadow other strengths.
Riot seems to be so fed up on their own bullshit that these two have forgotten that while S2 had a healthy mix of control (Oracles Shyvana, jungle Mundo) and ganking (S2 Jungle Cow, Maokai, Nautilus) junglers, the game has slowly developed into "Fighter" junglers because thanks to their S4 jungle changes, those are the only champions that can gank effectively, 3v1 effectively, and clear the jungle without just sitting in it burning HP and doing nothing.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
I think what they mean is that xin zhao and warwick are incredibly easy to get to grips jungling while elise/lee/kha are more complicated or harder (I would heavily dispute that for kha though :>)
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On October 08 2014 03:54 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 03:29 Alaric wrote:On October 08 2014 02:48 Alzadar wrote:
Royal brought out Annie support for like 2-3 games at S3 Worlds, and then it was banned every game after that. Support Annie was not popular in Season 3. Royal used it in LPL. It's just it went in soloQ during worlds (where it was super popular because "new", think rework or champ release popularity). Wanna know what makes Janna good in lane? A camping jungler. We trashed the fuck out of their lane then my AD didn't react to the gank and we had to back, so they made up the farm difference. But with his spellthief he was forced to shield himself whenever he wanted to harass us, which meant that until Tristana got enough levels that I couldn't get to her anymore because of her passive (which comes earlier because Janna's passive is a damn bitch to play against, I find it much more annoying than her W for example) I'd just trash her instead. And they were premade so they were supposed to be coordinated about that. After laning ends, Spellthief becomes even better, because it generates gold for you while you're going around the map warding, while Coin requires you to stay with one of your laners in order to get gold which you don't want to be doing after laning ends. I just... what. Whatever, I'd rather not send that fucking "topic" flying again. But don't go "it has 2gp10 to 0 it's better!" especially after you already gave Goumindong the "numbers without context mean nothing" talk. Not to mention it was broken as fuck. How many times did support annie have to get nerfed again?
1.5 times. Patch 4.1 nerfed stun duration and reduced Tibbers cooldown, 4.4 nerfed base damage and buffed ratios.
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I thought I understood Riot speak but alas I'm merely a novice. Really wish they would just remove smite instead of making it even more important. You already have an item that you need to buy if you jungling so why restrict the combat abilities even further by forcing a summoner spell. Just remove smite and up the need for jungle items if you still want to force jungle to be a specific thing.
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On October 08 2014 04:03 Numy wrote:
I thought I understood Riot speak but alas I'm merely a novice. Really wish they would just remove smite instead of making it even more important. You already have an item that you need to buy if you jungling so why restrict the combat abilities even further by forcing a summoner spell. Just remove smite and up the need for jungle items if you still want to force jungle to be a specific thing.
Oh god, how obnoxious would shaco be if he got access to both ignite+exhaust >.>
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If you removed Smite you'd have to add an equivalent active to jungler items, the game is really dumb when huge objectives like Baron / Dragon are just crap-shoots (see: Ascension).
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Huge objectives are just crap-shoots even with smite, smite doesn't make it any less random. People like to play up good smiting or smite steals when every single pro player says those situations are almost always up to luck. Smite is just there to make sure you can't not have a jungler if you have someone with smite. They already have the jungle items to force that situation so I see no need to have smite anymore.
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EPT
