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On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave).
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On October 07 2014 15:06 739 wrote:
Wicked Leblanc or Prestigious Leblanc ?
Save your money and wait for the new skin to come out. Looks pretty sweet. Her 3 current skins kind of suck, but Ravenborn looks pretty neat.
On October 07 2014 15:02 miicah wrote:
They should just remove athenes, but they won't because not casting spells is unfun. It's actually enjoyable managing your mana in the early levels in dota.
Having Athene's be weaker could've saved a lot of champs from the nerf bat (Ziggs). I personally feel like mana regen should be weaker as well, but it's going to take some adjustments to champs to go with it.
Managing mana feels better in Dota as well because the spells are tonnes more powerful. I play a lot of Leshrac, and he can go oom easily if you spam, but he hits like a truck and has an AoE stun. It sort of creates a better dynamic too, because if the enemy can survive through it, they have a massive advantage. It takes awhile for mana to become a 'non issue' in Dota as well. In league, I can get a pretty cheap Athene's and be fine for the game, but I need a Bloodstone in Dota to nearly not worry about mana again, and that shit is expensive.
But on some champs it is excruciating. I played a Sven game the other day. Sure his Q is like an Ult level LoL spell, but you gotta pick your moment to use it, because you won't be casting it again for awhile.
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
On October 07 2014 16:04 JazzVortical wrote:Save your money and wait for the new skin to come out. Looks pretty sweet. Her 3 current skins kind of suck, but Ravenborn looks pretty neat.
Right, I forgot about Ravenborn !
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On October 07 2014 15:06 739 wrote:
Wicked Leblanc or Prestigious Leblanc ?
Wait for the new one, but from the old ones I like the "magician" skin (Prestigious) better.
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On October 07 2014 16:22 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 15:42 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave). You have a shield to take damage for you. What is there to regen if you trade 1 auto with shield and take 1 auto and maybe 1 spell back? Most of the time I don't even take a spell back. Just trading auto for auto.
You have a shield with a high mana cost and 10 second CD which puts your primary defensive ability on cooldown unable to be used on your AD. The enemy should be playing back into you to exploit your CDs.
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On October 07 2014 15:42 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave).
this is the dumbest repeated argument that has been dragging the last few pages through the bowels of shitarguments.
starting from full health, spellthief out trades coin, so you and your adc are getting zoned while chugging pots before your "sustain" is even worth the gold you spent on it.
this is not a pen and paper game of math. stop.
you don't get to just argue about efficiency and build path without considering the actual situation, which is spellthief >>>>>> coin for trades.
you don't get to look at Δhealth over a 5 second trade, and then use Δhealth over a 30 second period to justify why its not awful.
this is exactly the classic burst vs dps argument for all games you've ever played ever. DPS over a 30 second period has no bearing on a fight that lasts 5.
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On October 07 2014 17:07 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 16:42 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 16:22 krndandaman wrote:On October 07 2014 15:42 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave). You have a shield to take damage for you. What is there to regen if you trade 1 auto with shield and take 1 auto and maybe 1 spell back? Most of the time I don't even take a spell back. Just trading auto for auto. You have a shield with a high mana cost and 10 second CD which puts your primary defensive ability on cooldown unable to be used on your AD. The enemy should be playing back into you to exploit your CDs. Same thing applies to the enemy. If the enemy support doesn't use a spell on me to trade back, I lost 0 health and got a good chunk of their hp with spell thiefs + the AD buff from shield. It's a big reason we see ad marks on some Jannas these days. If they use a spell to trade back, you traded evenly and they have the same CD down. Also Janna's shield is not high CD or mana compared to other supports. I recommend you watch C9 vs NJWS or Blue (1 of the ones Lemon played Janna and went 2v2) and watch how Lemon trades.
This assumes that the other support has a naturally weaker lane presence than Janna. Which about zero ranged supports do. You don't ever take self damage unless you're strictly outplaying them. But if you're strictly outplaying them itemization doesn't really matter.
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On October 07 2014 17:12 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 15:42 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave). this is the dumbest repeated argument that has been dragging the last few pages through the bowels of shitarguments. starting from full health, spellthief out trades coin, so you and your adc are getting zoned while chugging pots before your "sustain" is even worth the gold you spent on it. this is not a pen and paper game of math. stop. you don't get to just argue about efficiency and build path without considering the actual situation, which is spellthief >>>>>> coin for trades. you don't get to look at Δhealth over a 5 second trade, and then use Δhealth over a 30 second period to justify why its not awful. this is exactly the classic burst vs dps argument for all games you've ever played ever. DPS over a 30 second period has no bearing on a fight that lasts 5.
Laning doesn't last 5 seconds unless you're all in. Which I would contend is a bad idea as Janna. No one is saying that knife doesn't have its uses just that it's not strictly superior than coin. Indeed coin trades favorably against knife if it's not an all in.
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I don't get exactly get how Janna could "just trade one auto" when she has lower range than anyone not melee (apart from Thresh, and the passiveon his E hurts, plus you're almost in Flay range if you auto him).
I'm not even talking about Caitlyn, but Corki, MF, etc. will be able to auto you at least twice unless you shield yourself, go in, auto them and Q while running away so they can't auto you again.
I know as Lulu I'd be more than happy to burst a Janna's shield then keep autoing her until her AD butts in or I risk minion aggro, just because she'll lose the trade so hard (or pay a ton more mana) for it.
^ what they're saying is that when you come in lane at level 1 everyone's full HP so the coin's sustain won't matter, while you're looking at 30 more damage from spellthief (+ whatever damage you can get from 5 AP). If you have spellthief and they don't, you just harass/posture aggressively and use it to outtrade, then you can leverage your health advantage to try and zone them from cs so you reduce the coin sustain.
Another point is that I don't see how Claim gives more gold than Talisman. Whenever you group, unless you're Zyra or Lux support or something like that you won't get to use your charges as soon as they're up, while on the other hand you'll get gold from Coin.
That's the reason why FotM is so bad gold-wise as soon as laning ends or if you roam, because mages will nuke the wave while ADs will do more dps than your AD+200 execute range so unless people refrain from killing minions on purpose you just stop getting any gold.
On October 07 2014 11:22 Slusher wrote:
I mean thats basically what Yasuo is working with (except 50%) and he recks as long as he gets it activated.
Get a Ghostblade on Yi, you'll have the same ArPen on squishies early on and you'll truck them even harder because steroids. Yasuo wrecks people because he almost doubles (more than doubles if he has IE) his dps through crits, his ult's application is killing everyone in 4 hits and not just squishies.
I find that 20 MR aura on Locket pretty weak, sadly. It reduces the damage taken, sure, but if the ennemy has a double AP comp I feel like even if I get fed and rush locket, in the midgame we'll still have any squishy 100-0'd despite the aura and the shield. Having Heal up is still more important it feels like ('cause the MS buff also helps getting away).
Since the item's benefits on the wearer are so meh compared to other MR items, I find myself "annoyed" when an AP gets fed, especially someone like Ryze (dps), Syndra (will still kill people even if she ults you) or Katarina (resets) because it makes me more fragile than a Banshee's Veil while not even providing that much more survivability to my teammates it feels like.
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On October 07 2014 17:24 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 17:12 ItsFunToLose wrote:On October 07 2014 15:42 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave). this is the dumbest repeated argument that has been dragging the last few pages through the bowels of shitarguments. starting from full health, spellthief out trades coin, so you and your adc are getting zoned while chugging pots before your "sustain" is even worth the gold you spent on it. this is not a pen and paper game of math. stop. you don't get to just argue about efficiency and build path without considering the actual situation, which is spellthief >>>>>> coin for trades. you don't get to look at Δhealth over a 5 second trade, and then use Δhealth over a 30 second period to justify why its not awful. this is exactly the classic burst vs dps argument for all games you've ever played ever. DPS over a 30 second period has no bearing on a fight that lasts 5. Laning doesn't last 5 seconds unless you're all in. Which I would contend is a bad idea as Janna. No one is saying that knife doesn't have its uses just that it's not strictly superior than coin. Indeed coin trades favorably against knife if it's not an all in.
and my entire point is that it doesn't. no one has to die for there to be a massive HP differential that allows your ADC to safely auto minions and heal further. This is the critical difference where real application trumps all the math. while their ADC is hugging tower begging for a jungle gank, your adc is lifestealing away, bringing the state of the lane further in your favor.
if you're put at a temporary disadvantage due to the burst of spellthief that over a 2 minute state is nullified by negligible amounts of regen, you can't possibly argue that the team with the temporary advantage isn't compounding that by also controlling the wave, or hitting a critical level sooner, or auto attacking with dorans life steal.
no, i don't think spell thiefs on its own does ALL of that, but that is the direction it leans in design.
the idea that regenerating 10% more HP than it does in damage over a 12 minute laning phase makes it de facto better completely fails to understand that the laning phase is more than just rate calculations of HP in HP out. burst > dps
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On October 07 2014 16:32 Celial wrote: Wait for the new one, but from the old ones I like the "magician" skin (Prestigious) better.
Prestigious! pretty cheap too 520rp I got it for 260 :>
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On October 07 2014 17:32 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 17:24 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 17:12 ItsFunToLose wrote:On October 07 2014 15:42 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave). this is the dumbest repeated argument that has been dragging the last few pages through the bowels of shitarguments. starting from full health, spellthief out trades coin, so you and your adc are getting zoned while chugging pots before your "sustain" is even worth the gold you spent on it. this is not a pen and paper game of math. stop. you don't get to just argue about efficiency and build path without considering the actual situation, which is spellthief >>>>>> coin for trades. you don't get to look at Δhealth over a 5 second trade, and then use Δhealth over a 30 second period to justify why its not awful. this is exactly the classic burst vs dps argument for all games you've ever played ever. DPS over a 30 second period has no bearing on a fight that lasts 5. Laning doesn't last 5 seconds unless you're all in. Which I would contend is a bad idea as Janna. No one is saying that knife doesn't have its uses just that it's not strictly superior than coin. Indeed coin trades favorably against knife if it's not an all in. and my entire point is that it doesn't. no one has to die for there to be a massive HP differential that allows your ADC to safely auto minions and heal further. This is the critical difference where real application trumps all the math. while their ADC is hugging tower begging for a jungle gank, your adc is lifestealing away, bringing the state of the lane further in your favor. if you're put at a temporary disadvantage due to the burst of spellthief that over a 2 minute state is nullified by negligible amounts of regen, you can't possibly argue that the team with the temporary advantage isn't compounding that by also controlling the wave, or hitting a critical level sooner, or auto attacking with dorans life steal. no, i don't think spell thiefs on its own does ALL of that, but that is the direction it leans in design. the idea that regenerating 10% more HP than it does in damage over a 12 minute laning phase makes it de facto better completely fails to understand that the laning phase is more than just rate calculations of HP in HP out. burst > dps
30 is not a massive HP differential. And yes actually regenerating upwards of 50% more damage (upgrade and armor/ MR growth) is actually a big deal in laning phase. Because 30 more damage on an all-in doesn't matter when I have 30 more HP than you.
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On October 07 2014 16:22 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 15:42 Goumindong wrote:On October 07 2014 13:00 krndandaman wrote:
My point still stands then. Trading autos with spellthiefs > trading autos with coin. except as has been explained many times before that isn't true. Coin trades better than knife because armor and MR make the sustain larger than the damage. At minimum coin is worth 40 effective HP a wave (30 HP x 1.3 armor effect) while at max knife is worth 40 damage(assuming you use two shields and two ws per wave). You have a shield to take damage for you. What is there to regen if you trade 1 auto with shield and take 1 auto and maybe 1 spell back? Most of the time I don't even take a spell back. Just trading auto for auto.
Have you played Janna before?
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Wow this feels really scummy from TC....
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Doesn't change the fact that once teams group and/or sieges happen spellthief isn't better than coin for gold generation (it is better than relic shield, obviously), which is what people have said several times here already.
And I'd say Morgana is typically a fine match-up for Janna: she can help shove, but not that hard that Janna can't counteract it, she doesn't poke, she's mostly reactive (which Janna deals fine with) unless she hits a binding (should be harder once Janna gets points in W anyway); finally, Morgana herself only has 450 auto range.
I'd be warier of Janna trying to trade autos with Lulu, Sona or Zyra.
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EPT
