EPTOn September 29 2014 01:22 SnowFantasy wrote:
Why does Gorilla run 3x attack speed reds on thresh?
Why does Gorilla run 3x attack speed reds on thresh?
because he's the real adc in botlane.
[Patch 4.17] Soraka/Viktor General Discussion - Page 22
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
because he's the real adc in botlane. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On September 29 2014 01:29 wei2coolman wrote: because he's the real adc in botlane. GorrillaSuPepper | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I mean, it's not like you do less damage with Q now than you did before the rework until level 13, without even counting his base AD since you have to land an auto now. Which means that the increased range doesn't mean anything in terms of damage. x) | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On September 29 2014 02:55 Alaric wrote: I like how everyone maxes Q first on Viktor and goes "oh wow holy shit this is broken the spell is so strong, much damage, wow". I mean, it's not like you do less damage with Q now than you did before the rework until level 13, without even counting his base AD since you have to land an auto now. Which means that the increased range doesn't mean anything in terms of damage. x) His q before was worse and the shield wasn't instant.Now you can block shit on reaction pls stop. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 29 2014 02:55 Alaric wrote: I like how everyone maxes Q first on Viktor and goes "oh wow holy shit this is broken the spell is so strong, much damage, wow". I mean, it's not like you do less damage with Q now than you did before the rework until level 13, without even counting his base AD since you have to land an auto now. Which means that the increased range doesn't mean anything in terms of damage. x) level 15. You're 10 damage down at level 14. On September 29 2014 03:06 nafta wrote: His q before was worse and the shield wasn't instant.Now you can block shit on reaction pls stop. No, as a lane bully tool, Q was really strong, stronger than it is now. People didn't max it not because the lane bully power wasn't strong but because no one would sit around and let you Q them over and over again at level 9. They would clear the wave and roam. Even with the rework you can't/shouldn't rank up Q first because you need to have the wave clear to compete (and because the per-rank scaling is weak) with basically every mid who can also clear waves. This makes it doubly ironic for people ranking up Q first because not only is it weaker than it was, its still a bad idea due to removing your wave clear. The biggest thing that changed wasn't really the range or the instant shield (its pretty low), it was that you can buy the speed up augment and the wave clear augment at the same time. That and a better auto animation means that trading/CS'ing in lane isn't like pulling teeth. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Edit: yeah I gotta admit that the Q-buffed autoattack animation is one of the best there is in the entire game, though. It's immediate, even more responsive than Cait's or Syndra's. The shield doesn't matter if you get caught because he has shit base HP and will just explode regardless (he has an animation on it anyway). The shield doesn't matter most of the time early in lane because even before the rework it would at least deter minion damage and let you get another auto or two in even if it doesn't absorb part of the enemy nuke; meanwhile the damage is much worse (20 less base and his 52 (at level 1, +3/level) base AD being reduced by 30+ MR instead of ~20 armour), in exchange for 5% AP which is like 2 damage early game) so you won't win the trades or bully as much. The shield doesn't matter when you get attacked by stuff outside your range (in that case yeah it's a small buff if you have something between 600 and 700 range, and/or if the attack takes less than 1s to hit you). It does more damage lategame but you still need to reach there and be in a better position than pre-rework Viktor would have been (otherwise what's the point, if he could have won in the midgame?), it ate away at your E reliability and R damage so you have to get in auto range to make up for it damage-wise, and you're still susceptible to just dying anytime somebody looks at you funny (and when they're sitting on your zhonya or chasing you or whatever, pre-rework Viktor would have gotten the shield immediatly too). Since he doesn't build tanky like a Ryze, relying on the lategame with an immobile champion who needs to be at around 600 range of his target (slightly below his auto) usually means that if you don't have a very strong frontline to cover for you someone will just jump on you and kill you with a dash. Too bad there's a myriad of other picks who do well too in the lategame without being as vulnerable. I could still see augmenting Q first over E, then rushing straight AP, because the speed boost can help you in ganks or simply chasing people (if someone's running away from you, unless they're something like only 300 range away the explosion won't hit them) during skirmishes and roaming, as they try to get to their tower. But maxing Q is a bad idea. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
E augment -> Rylai -> Void -> Q Augment/Lichbane or Deathcap ->Finish Augments The Rylai has plenty of damage and tank, which effectively give you the Q augment without the downside of having to buy the inefficient Q augment. The 15% slow on the laser is just enough to make the second part easier to hit and the 15% slow on the ult means enemies have a harder time running away from it. Void second because you absolutely need the champion damage and DFG isn't a great choice since you're AoE/will have to go through the tank with your Q's anyway. Lichbane has better consistent DPS than Cap, but total teamfight damage you need two Lichbane Proc's in order to make up for the cap passive (not including its extra AP) so choose cap if you're able to get at the squishies or if you're dying too fast to get anything but your burst off, and choose lichbane if you're having trouble with the tanks. The either of Lichbane/Deathcap that you didn't get finishes the build and then you finish augments (and/or finish the augments when you're second to last item and you've got 1000 gold sitting around) | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Q right now is a much stronger spell late game, but in lane E is way better. Q before was actually much much stronger in the lane phase. Did twice as much damage with half the CD. If you Qmax now you just playing a bad version of old Viktor Q max, lol. Which was bad because other lane just shove and roam while you derped around with your level 1 E. I dont think he is strictly worse, just very different. Before he was a strong as hell till 25 minute mark, and then he kind of average afterwards, but now he average untill like 40 minutes. Its a different powercurve that I'm not sure I like. I do feel like i could have won 3 or 4 games by the 25 minute mark with old Viktor that got dragged to like the 40 minute mark. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
e max, first 1000g e upgrade. dcap, finish other 2 upgrades, void staff, lich bane. it felt very fizz-like the way he could burst people. i just played a game where my only 2 deaths were to ziggs ult, if anyone got close to me they died. my team was ideally set up for this though, i had a j4, garen, and morg peeling. do you guys think this is what riot intended for viktor? i 100-0 the enemy adc at 45 min, and had half my health left. viktor always had good burst, but it kind of trailed off as the game went on, this is on a whole other level. a lot like fizz, like i said. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Viktor isn't supposed to 100-0 a marksman that late, and wasn't supposed too before either, it's just he misplayed. Your auto range is 525 and you have no gapcloser other than a MS buff on a super squishy champion. Even if you tag them with Q, you need to close in (without getting cc'd/murdered in the meantime) and auto them to get your burst, and they must not be running away or they'll dodge the 40% from the E explosion. Pre-rework Viktor had the same issue because the range on his ult isn't that big (at least the cast time was reduced), and without the speed buff he had to stay near them for the periodic damage to keep ticking (while getting cc'd pretty much negated the ult unless they had their back to the wall, if your target was ranged and had decent positioning). Fizz has 2 gapclosers, one including an invulnerability period, and the slow on his ult can act as a setup. Even if the damage and the way it's applied were close, in terms of survivability and positioning it's not the same. Fizz can also initiate, but Viktor not that much (R is frontloaded but still deals most of the damage over time, W has a delay, etc.). Edit: Qtpie's playing him a bunch today, and I just saw a Yasuo block his E. Uh... is that new post-rework? I remember Yasuo's Wind Wall not blocking E when he first came out on PBE. ._. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 29 2014 05:16 Vaporized wrote: viktor wrecks people. e max, first 1000g e upgrade. dcap, finish other 2 upgrades, void staff, lich bane. it felt very fizz-like the way he could burst people. i just played a game where my only 2 deaths were to ziggs ult, if anyone got close to me they died. my team was ideally set up for this though, i had a j4, garen, and morg peeling. do you guys think this is what riot intended for viktor? i 100-0 the enemy adc at 45 min, and had half my health left. viktor always had good burst, but it kind of trailed off as the game went on, this is on a whole other level. a lot like fizz, like i said. Yes and no. Viktor has always been able to 100-0 enemy AD's at 45 minutes (unless they had BV) but his pre-6 item burst is lower than it used to be. I think that they intended to make his hexcore feel powerful and i think they intended to make his abilities flow together better. I think they achieved the second part, but not necessarily the first part. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
the hexcore feels powerful to me. its essentially the 2nd highest ap item in the game, and cheaper then any NLR item. gives you enough mana that buying a regen or +mana item is not necessary (that was a very smart choice imo). I've sort of found that by bypassing the athene's, and rushing dcap + all 3 upgrades, you still hit a huge mid game power spike. even dcap + 2 upgrades in the midgame is massive damage. i would agree though, upgrading the skills doesn't feel that rewarding. not like kha zix where each upgrade is meaningful for the changes that the skill recieves. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
i just copy their stuff and trust that the korean coach did the math right. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On September 29 2014 07:53 gtrsrs wrote: can someone give me some pointers on new cass? runes/masteries/skill/build order? she seems pretty cool now but i'm struggling to grasp the intricacies of her playstyle No idea but everyone is saying she is too bad now early, decent late game doesnt make up for it. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/nesl_lol Pretty interesting since its partly new rosters that will compete in expansion tournament. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21533 Posts
On September 29 2014 07:57 Redox wrote: Btw Coast vs LoLPro going on atm. Winner vs Team 8. http://www.twitch.tv/nesl_lol Pretty interesting since its partly new rosters that will compete in expansion tournament. Tune in. See they are casting off Directed Camera. Tune out. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 29 2014 06:47 Vaporized wrote: yeah, i meant that 100-0 burst felt like fizz, their actual combos and playstyles are obviously different. the hexcore feels powerful to me. its essentially the 2nd highest ap item in the game, and cheaper then any NLR item. gives you enough mana that buying a regen or +mana item is not necessary (that was a very smart choice imo). I've sort of found that by bypassing the athene's, and rushing dcap + all 3 upgrades, you still hit a huge mid game power spike. even dcap + 2 upgrades in the midgame is massive damage. i would agree though, upgrading the skills doesn't feel that rewarding. not like kha zix where each upgrade is meaningful for the changes that the skill recieves. If you look at the level 18 stats Hexcore looks really good. But that isn't what we are talking about when we talk about power. The level 18 purchase value is 114 AP. That is, if you're level 18 and buy all the components your base AP will increase by 114. This makes it the third highest AP item in the game, not the second. Cap, DFG, and Zhonya all have more raw AP. At level 13 the value is 99 AP. Its beat out by Rylai. Before level 7 its beat by an NLR. OK you're unlikely to finish it before then, but it only feels powerful if you look at the level 18 final item stats and don't compare its in game power/actual purchase value. At level 18, the AP you get out of each part is 38. So 2 AP less than a Blasting Wand, for 140 gold more. This is why you only want to buy the hexcore parts under two situations 1) When you need the E wave clear. The E bonus damage means that the E Augment can clear waves with significantly less AP. Thus negating the need for D-Cap to clear waves. The Q upgrade can be handy in some situations due to the chasing it enables. Aside: This is also why D-cap as a second item is poor, you can clear waves without it, and by the time you're going to complete it your base damages will be high enough to make Void Staff more efficient* (because you have two, rather than three, abilities with AP scaling and only one of them has a decent ratio) 2) Once you're done with your core items and have to either upgrade your Hexcore for 1000, or sit on finishing your last item (for 1500-2000) *At 100 enemy MR voidstaff's passive is worth about about 20% more base and scaling damage. Deathcaps is obviously worth 30% more scaling damage at all points but the breakeven here, assuming you don't get full ticks on your ult. Is like 300 raw AP (So you would need Deathcap, level 13 E augment, and 104 more AP for Deathcap to be better than Voidstaff, and by the time you have that enemy MR is higher and your base damages are even higher) | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On September 29 2014 08:01 Gorsameth wrote: Tune in. See they are casting off Directed Camera. Tune out. I care so little I didnt even notice. | ||
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