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On August 13 2014 23:39 kongoline wrote:
is it the same in dota?
usually a lot slower. with some shifts in meta occurring at the behest of teams, usually during the next big tournament by keeping a strat under wraps until then. with LCS that incentive isn't there as much, and obviously with the patch cycle its a bit luck based to keep a strat under wraps when it could change in a couple weeks.
meta shifts tend to happen in dota during the large "version" updates. while the subupdates are mostly corrections to an overbuff after the version patch or bug fixes for the most part. a few tiny balance tweaks but most of the shifts happen during the big ones. They are also slowed by having recently reworked or new heroes being unavailable for competitive play for up to a few months.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On August 13 2014 23:43 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 23:09 Scip wrote:On August 13 2014 22:08 JimmiC wrote:On August 13 2014 14:35 miicah wrote:On August 13 2014 11:59 JimmiC wrote:On August 13 2014 11:28 miicah wrote:Maokai's a pretty cool dude and we're always happy to see a magical tree beating up dragons and yordles, but having a 100% uptime on Vengeful Maelstrom doesn't offer many windows of opportunity (otherwise known as counterplay!), and we may have overshot slightly on his base power. I really don't understand Riots logic sometimes, if Maokai's R uptime is a problem why does his W need to be nerfed alongside it? Just change the ult and see what happens, if he is still overplayed or too strong, THEN change the W. I really don't understand your logic, if the patch is the problem then why complain about it before it goes live? And then if it's still bad and not necessary complain about it. Because the ult nerf alone may be enough to tone him down. Or alternatively maybe go through with the W nerf (as 5hit pointed out it is super strong, I didn't realise that) and look at the ult next patch. Overall this is just another example of why Riot should really think before they bring such huge changes into the game this close to worlds. The point I was trying to make is that you are upset that RIOT "jumped the gun" by nerfing 2 things, I was laughing at the irony of you "jumping the gun" and thinking it was too much by reacting to it BEFORE it even went live so you had no chance to try it. You could be right, you could be wrong, just funny that you are doing exactly what you are complaining about. Nowhere did he say the nerf was too much, he just advised for caution there is no irony here He is "advising caution" because he feels that what they wanted to accomplish, he feels could be accomplished with just one nerf. I'm "advising caution" to him based on him assuming that two nerfs was too much with out actually playing it. The semantics don't matter. If your issue is that you think they have done too much by not first checking what one smaller change would do. It should stand to reason that you should at least check what their change accomplished before you assume that it is too much.
He very obviously expressed uncertainty about it all, (may be enough)
On August 13 2014 14:35 miicah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 11:59 JimmiC wrote:On August 13 2014 11:28 miicah wrote:Maokai's a pretty cool dude and we're always happy to see a magical tree beating up dragons and yordles, but having a 100% uptime on Vengeful Maelstrom doesn't offer many windows of opportunity (otherwise known as counterplay!), and we may have overshot slightly on his base power. I really don't understand Riots logic sometimes, if Maokai's R uptime is a problem why does his W need to be nerfed alongside it? Just change the ult and see what happens, if he is still overplayed or too strong, THEN change the W. I really don't understand your logic, if the patch is the problem then why complain about it before it goes live? And then if it's still bad and not necessary complain about it. Because the ult nerf alone may be enough to tone him down. Or alternatively maybe go through with the W nerf (as 5hit pointed out it is super strong, I didn't realise that) and look at the ult next patch. Overall this is just another example of why Riot should really think before they bring such huge changes into the game this close to worlds.
and generalizes that it's probably more appropriate to nerf things gradually.
You're just misinterpreting
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I mean with bi-weekly patches I don't see any reason to not take nerfs and buffs one at a time. Although in this case I'm willing to accept that Mao might be an outlier as opposed to riots typical targets
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
??? It still makes no sense to tell someone who says "the ult nerf alone might be enough" to not be too quick to judge ("jump the gun")
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"Let's agree to disagree" is just a way of ending an argument without admitting you are wrong (unless you are too lazy to come up with a good argument I guess)
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On August 14 2014 00:26 Slayer91 wrote:
"Let's agree to disagree" is just a way of ending an argument without admitting you are wrong (unless you are too lazy to come up with a good argument I guess)
Or just acknowledging that neither party is willing to shift from their stance for any reason, so continued debate is fruitless.
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after liek what 100 words total of argument thats laughable
even so it seems like a silly thing to assume is reasonable in most cases since one side can just stop responding if he feels he's put all his logical points forward and believes them to be sufficient, if you feel the need to say agree to disagree it feels like you're just trying to bail while seeming to have some kind of high ground
I mean I just read it and in this specific case jimmic is absolutely wrong although I disagree with miicahs assessment.
I assume the reason the riot feels comfortable with two nerfs is how dominant maokai top is and they wouldn't be too bothered if it became niche or barely played again, but its very unlikely because the nerfs had little impact. How many fights last more than 10 seconds for maokai to ult? most of them are decided before the 10 seconds and the W nerf was really small too.
Nerfing things slowly may be a good solution but riot has limited time so its reasonable to nerf in slightly larger packages and move on to the next champ.
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Or maybe the argument is trivially silly and spending more time on it than this is completely pointless.
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On August 14 2014 00:46 JimmiC wrote:
or it's a disagreement on perspective which is not black and white and therefore doesn't have a set answer, (happy bday btw)
I think micah is complaining that riot jumped the gun and did 2 nerfs, and doing so without checking out the nerfs to see what they accomplished.
Scip thinks he was simply pointing out that they may have done to much to early.
Either way seems like not something to keep talking about on this forum so I figured if I wrote that (agree to disagree) we might move on. Especially when I was just trying to make a point that lots of people complain about the nerfs and changes before they try them out, and are often wrong with there assumptions, and accuse riot of being to hasty, which I see (not accurately to some) as ironic, when they post these concerns so hastily.
You're projecting miicahs viewpoint onto something else you don't like. Miicah is advocating a process of one nerf at a time as a sort of rigorous test as riot have in the past many times overshot on both nerfs and buffs. He never once said that maokai would be too weak because of two nerfs.
I believe riot has a huge workload so they try to ship out buffs and nerfs once and come back in a few months if something is still underplayed. They care more about "OP" than "UP" stuff because something new can always take an "UP's" place and that allows the game to evolve.
You can see where the criticism comes from. Maokai never played -->They buff him-->He's "OP" -->They nerf again. Why so drastic?
The thing is that riot was assuming that maokai buffs applied to jungle maokai. Maokai had poor jungle speed which necessarily made him a weak jungler so riot tried to buff his mana costs to help him clear but then they never realized when he can spam his skill's he's a really strong top laner.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On August 14 2014 00:46 JimmiC wrote:
or it's a disagreement on perspective which is not black and white and therefore doesn't have a set answer, (happy bday btw)
I think micah is complaining that riot jumped the gun and did 2 nerfs, and doing so without checking out the nerfs to see what they accomplished.
Scip thinks he was simply pointing out that they may have done to much to early.
Either way seems like not something to keep talking about on this forum so I figured if I wrote that (agree to disagree) we might move on. Especially when I was just trying to make a point that lots of people complain about the nerfs and changes before they try them out, and are often wrong with there assumptions, and accuse riot of being to hasty, which I see (not accurately to some) as ironic, when they post these concerns so hastily.
If you have an issue with people being too quick to judge patches then make it a standalone post rather than as a response to someone who isn't too quick to judge patches
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All games have this kind of cycles more or less..... maybe except Blizzard games.
We all know how well WC3 turned out.
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I don't care how Orianna was nerfed, but why was she? Has she really been that dominant?
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On August 14 2014 01:28 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't care how Orianna was nerfed, but why was she? Has she really been that dominant?
Yes.She has kind of been THE mid lane pick for 3 seasons now lol.She is the lee sin of mid lane.What good mid laner doesn't play orianna?Literally dade is the only person lol.
Did she have to get nerfed?I dunno.Her early game is ridiculous though.
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On August 14 2014 01:28 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't care how Orianna was nerfed, but why was she? Has she really been that dominant?
Yup. She's in that "safe in all matchups, ult makes it so it doesn't matter how well you did in lane" zone again.
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On August 14 2014 01:29 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 01:28 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't care how Orianna was nerfed, but why was she? Has she really been that dominant? Yes.She has kind of been THE mid lane pick for 3 seasons now lol.She is the lee sin of mid lane.What good mid laner doesn't play orianna?Literally dade is the only person lol.
If you watch NA LCS, half or more of the mids look like they've never hit an ori ult in their life :O
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I don't see a problem with being around a lot. If she hasn't been dominant, then I don't know why there's a problem. Having staple picks is pretty good for a game.
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Champion variety keeps the game fresh imo, both in terms of gameplay and spectating.
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EPT
