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On August 05 2014 19:04 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 16:40 Osmoses wrote:The most succint explanation on the subject I've read is that you are playing a game with 9 other people. As long as you don't troll or feed, there are only 4 people on your team that can troll or feed, whereas the enemy team has 5 people. Thus, if you are better than everyone else, the odds are in your favor to advance, over time. On August 05 2014 15:25 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2014 15:12 JimmiC wrote:On August 05 2014 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2014 15:03 JimmiC wrote:On August 05 2014 14:49 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2014 14:47 Osmoses wrote:
That doesn't actually apply in this instance. How doesn't it? I doubt anybody plays enough soloque games to qualify for law of large numbers. In addition, Law of Large #s doesn't apply anyway. Things like coin flips and dice rolls have set outcomes. Who matchmaking pulls out of a hat of thousands from differing size and valued pools has way too many shifting parts. It's shocking to me how many people believe they are where they are because of "bad luck" and it's only them. Half the people they arguing with calling feeders and shiters are saying the exact same thing as them. Because the two individuals both made different plays they feel are right and don't consider there was another option. Also people see others mistakes way easier then there own. Over and over again players take different smurfs and still all end up in close to the same league. Does there bad luck follow them? Sure if you play 10 games you can have bad luck, but if you play 100? More over multiple seasons? Come on... Nowhere did I say that somebody's position on the ladder is 100% decided by luck. I'm saying that the assumption that there will be an even distribution of ragers, trolls, and afks because of a law of probability that doesn't apply is silly. Then you are either nip picking one small point from my post in order to try to prove it all wrong, or justifying your own negative behavior. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_fulfilling_prophecyLook I can look up wikipedia pages too! If we make the assumption that the subject is always clear headed, doesn't rage, and honestly tries their hardest 100% of the time, then we can say that the possibility that matchmaking drops a, for lack of a better term, majorly toxic element on a team is 4:5. However, that assumes we draw from the same pool of players. Yet people cycle in an out of soloqueue all the time during the day. It assumes the players in the pool to be picked from have static states of "good" players and problem cases, which Riot has refuted in the past after going over tribunal records that the majority of people who end up in tribunal are usually normal players but just have a streak where they might be super emotional or stressed. It also assumes that these negative players will display their negative behavior, but the shit head linked earlier in this thread clearly has decent skill to get to gold and stay above the drop point in MMR to avoid losing season end reward loss, despite his trolling streaks. Saying it's all gonna balance out because of the 4:5 ratio is a gross oversimplification of the system. It's nitpicking, by the way, and this was the first time I did it in this discussion. edit: didn't see your post, you're implying there are a greater amount of trolls during certain hours of the day? This might be true, but it still doesnt matter because the enemy team has a greater chance of getting them on their team. edit2: no actually I have no idea what your point is lol, the fact of the matter is simply that the gambler's fallacy doesn't apply here because the odds are in your favor every single game. I'm saying that, unlike systems like dice rolling or coin flipping, the pool of players that soloq pulls from isn't static. Because of this, I posit that for the Law of Large Numbers to apply, that somebody would need to play more games than they would realistically play in a season to make up for this variance across a large scale. Therefore, assuming that it would even out because of the 4:5 split, doesn't mean it will.
Obviously nothing is certain, but no matter how you look at it the odds for every single game are still theoretically in your favor, if you are indeed better than everyone else in the current game. The gambler's fallacy doesn't take player skill or opponents into consideration at all, it's just a guy with a poor underdstanding of how chance works playing a game that is mostly based on chance. If this were Flash, and he has just lost a couple Broodwar games in a row, would it be unreasonable to assume he was probably gonna win the next one?
+ Show Spoiler +Quite frankly to even compare the league matchmaking system and the resulting games played to coin flipping or really any kind of numbers game is a bit absurd. You have immense power to influence any game in league, as has been proven again and again by progamers going from bronze to challenger. Some games they lose, but most games they win, because they account for far more than just 10% of the total (positive) influence during the game.
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Then again, I think the leveling system needs to be overhauled, doesn't make much sense anymore to have to grind through 200 games to get to level 30, especially with like half of those being smurfs... or maybe I'm wrong ?
EDIT : Owned by lunch break, this post was following PX's
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Anybody got tips for alistar in soloq? I have a hard time achieving much in the lane without my jungler. It feels like unless i have the adc with burst/higher dmg than the opposite adc i have a hard time achieving much. They will just poke and piss me off. Against thresh its somewhat okay but what can i do against the likes of lulu/karma/morgana?
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On August 05 2014 21:14 The_Unseen wrote:
Then again, I think the leveling system needs to be overhauled, doesn't make much sense anymore to have to grind through 200 games to get to level 30, especially with like half of those being smurfs... or maybe I'm wrong ?
I think that system might actually be to discourage smurfs :p I mean if you could just start a new acc and go right into ranked, why would anyone care if they got banned?
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On August 05 2014 21:20 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 21:14 The_Unseen wrote:
Then again, I think the leveling system needs to be overhauled, doesn't make much sense anymore to have to grind through 200 games to get to level 30, especially with like half of those being smurfs... or maybe I'm wrong ? I think that system might actually be to discourage smurfs :p I mean if you could just start a new acc and go right into ranked, why would anyone care if they got banned?
I'm not saying we should be able to go into ranked right away ofc ! But I know some people who were just discouraged by the massive grind LoL's leveling implies (and let's face it, the games in leveling can be pretty shit and don't really comply with anything we know about the game).
Say someone comes from a competitive background (Dota, SC, CS, you name it), watches LCS or something, thinks "wow this game is pretty neat let's try it", and then realises he has to grind through 200+ games just to be able to play a semi resemblance of the game he's been watching? Uh.
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On August 05 2014 21:20 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 21:14 The_Unseen wrote:
Then again, I think the leveling system needs to be overhauled, doesn't make much sense anymore to have to grind through 200 games to get to level 30, especially with like half of those being smurfs... or maybe I'm wrong ? I think that system might actually be to discourage smurfs :p I mean if you could just start a new acc and go right into ranked, why would anyone care if they got banned?
Smurfing is about stomping noobs or playing people below your level not playing in ranked. Only top end players care about smurfing in ranked.
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Well theres also the issue of no runes/masteries and only one solo lane.
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On August 05 2014 21:39 Osmoses wrote:
Well theres also the issue of no runes/masteries and only one solo lane.
people started jungling at level 8ish on this most recent account i am leveling atm. can't tell if its because smurfs or because my MMR rose that quickly. who knows without a transparent system.but i don't think i saw a 2-1-2 game after 10. plenty of 1-2-2 games where people were fighting over mid though.
but yeah, the new player experience for LoL is really shit atm. before 20 its a ton of bots and ragers/afkers after 20 its a struggle with a bunch of duo queue lvl 30's with low levels.i can't imagine going through that and wanting to continue if i was new. levels 1-10 were intolerable for the most part. about 10% of my matches actually were games in that range. the rest were bot heavy or decided by who ragequit or afk'd first.
and thats just from the player base. the whole leveling system is pretty frustrating to deal with, and runes are a trap early.not being able to play vs people early is alright, but could definitely turn some people off, the levels where you are playing vs people with ignite flash when you only have ghost heal can be discouraging too.
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On August 05 2014 19:08 Celial wrote:
I'm so confused by solo queue supports right now.
Stop trying to figure out the optimal support to play, pick 2-3 and get really good at them. Whatever difference in strength there is among them pales in comparison to your mechanics/understanding of vision, so just don't even worry about it.
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On August 05 2014 21:23 The_Unseen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 21:20 Osmoses wrote:On August 05 2014 21:14 The_Unseen wrote:
Then again, I think the leveling system needs to be overhauled, doesn't make much sense anymore to have to grind through 200 games to get to level 30, especially with like half of those being smurfs... or maybe I'm wrong ? I think that system might actually be to discourage smurfs :p I mean if you could just start a new acc and go right into ranked, why would anyone care if they got banned? I'm not saying we should be able to go into ranked right away ofc ! But I know some people who were just discouraged by the massive grind LoL's leveling implies (and let's face it, the games in leveling can be pretty shit and don't really comply with anything we know about the game). Say someone comes from a competitive background (Dota, SC, CS, you name it), watches LCS or something, thinks "wow this game is pretty neat let's try it", and then realises he has to grind through 200+ games just to be able to play a semi resemblance of the game he's been watching? Uh.
What? There is draft pick available for those under 30. I see no problem with the current system. Smurfs are retarded, pointless and do nothing but serve to grief lower ranked players, troll or buffer some fools main account because he cant handle the fact that he's inconsistent / shit without a duo.
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The grind to 30 is only a light taste of the real game and its community, if people can't handle the grind through normals, there is no way they are going to handle the terrors of ranked soloq. It's all fitting preparation in my eyes.
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On August 05 2014 21:41 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 21:39 Osmoses wrote:
Well theres also the issue of no runes/masteries and only one solo lane. people started jungling at level 8ish on this most recent account i am leveling atm. can't tell if its because smurfs or because my MMR rose that quickly. who knows without a transparent system.but i don't think i saw a 2-1-2 game after 10. plenty of 1-2-2 games where people were fighting over mid though. but yeah, the new player experience for LoL is really shit atm. before 20 its a ton of bots and ragers/afkers after 20 its a struggle with a bunch of duo queue lvl 30's with low levels.i can't imagine going through that and wanting to continue if i was new. levels 1-10 were intolerable for the most part. about 10% of my matches actually were games in that range. the rest were bot heavy or decided by who ragequit or afk'd first. and thats just from the player base. the whole leveling system is pretty frustrating to deal with, and runes are a trap early.not being able to play vs people early is alright, but could definitely turn some people off, the levels where you are playing vs people with ignite flash when you only have ghost heal can be discouraging too.
I don't think there was anything wrong with the system when it was designed. It is outdated now though. The exposure that MOBA's have and the amount of LoL gameplay available for viewing is enormous. Beginners don't need as much hand-holding nowadays.
The only thing this system does at this point is deter bots and alternate account toxicity in ranked. This is at the cost of exposing these to new players(customers). Riot is a smart company, I expect some changes to the whole system after worlds.
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If they change the system AFTER I grind out lvl 30 on my smurf, I'll set a camp in Shykio.
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leveling to 30 isnt that bad.
You must keep in mind that when you make a smurf, you play with other smurfs and those rage a lot.
New players are sorted out relatively quickly and play with each other a lot of time.
And you need the time to 30 to understand the game anways. Why would people want to play ranked when they do not understand the game properly.
btw, dota 2 has an even more terrible experience because they have fewer players to do matchmaking with and Eu servers are basically russian at this point for beginners at least.
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On August 05 2014 22:22 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 21:23 The_Unseen wrote:On August 05 2014 21:20 Osmoses wrote:On August 05 2014 21:14 The_Unseen wrote:
Then again, I think the leveling system needs to be overhauled, doesn't make much sense anymore to have to grind through 200 games to get to level 30, especially with like half of those being smurfs... or maybe I'm wrong ? I think that system might actually be to discourage smurfs :p I mean if you could just start a new acc and go right into ranked, why would anyone care if they got banned? I'm not saying we should be able to go into ranked right away ofc ! But I know some people who were just discouraged by the massive grind LoL's leveling implies (and let's face it, the games in leveling can be pretty shit and don't really comply with anything we know about the game). Say someone comes from a competitive background (Dota, SC, CS, you name it), watches LCS or something, thinks "wow this game is pretty neat let's try it", and then realises he has to grind through 200+ games just to be able to play a semi resemblance of the game he's been watching? Uh. What? There is draft pick available for those under 30. I see no problem with the current system. Smurfs are retarded, pointless and do nothing but serve to grief lower ranked players, troll or buffer some fools main account because he cant handle the fact that he's inconsistent / shit without a duo.
Or don't want to have longer ques than games which is a very big problem.
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Dunno, I didn't get that many smurfs (then again, until level 19 or so the account was almost only used to play with other beginners and considering their tastes I'd play supportive stuff, usually in the jungle, meaning we'd still lose a lot of games x) ).
The last 10 levels felt much grindier because I played alone (they all dropped) and the progression is much slower. There was teambuilder and hexakill to shake things up a bit though (and may explain why I didn't have that many smurfs against me) and the Garen challenge for the final level.
I've done placement on that account and apart from Maokai (and Garen, hue) I only use champions I've barely played to get a hang of them or because I know I'd be a deadweight if I tried them on my main (I didn't sandbag the placements so I got placed harder than I thought I would and now I'm not stomping noobs either).
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Well actually a difficult to level system actually encourages botting, because people will pay to skip it. and leveling to 30 for most new players isn't about ranked, its about being able to play the full game. most people play normals not ranked.
interesting people telling me about what my experience leveling to 30 has been over the past months though. its garbage at low levels right now. and i can't imagine a player getting 10-15 games in. i'd expect most new players who don't have a friend helping them probably get tired on having 5+ bots or afks per game for the 5 or 6 games. I'd quit if that's all i dealt with when i played the game.
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On August 05 2014 22:49 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, I didn't get that many smurfs (then again, until level 19 or so the account was almost only used to play with other beginners and considering their tastes I'd play supportive stuff, usually in the jungle, meaning we'd still lose a lot of games x) ).
The last 10 levels felt much grindier because I played alone (they all dropped) and the progression is much slower. There was teambuilder and hexakill to shake things up a bit though (and may explain why I didn't have that many smurfs against me) and the Garen challenge for the final level.
I've done placement on that account and apart from Maokai (and Garen, hue) I only use champions I've barely played to get a hang of them or because I know I'd be a deadweight if I tried them on my main (I didn't sandbag the placements so I got placed harder than I thought I would and now I'm not stomping noobs either).
Hey, that's exactly why I want a smurf! That, and to get to bronze, howewer I'm way too much of a nice guy to intentionally lose games for others to get there. So, unless I spam only adc I doubt I could reach bronze legitly 
On August 05 2014 22:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
Well actually a difficult to level system actually encourages botting, because people will pay to skip it. and leveling to 30 for most new players isn't about ranked, its about being able to play the full game. most people play normals not ranked.
interesting people telling me about what my experience leveling to 30 has been over the past months though. its garbage at low levels right now. and i can't imagine a player getting 10-15 games in. i'd expect most new players who don't have a friend helping them probably get tired on having 5+ bots or afks per game for the 5 or 6 games.
Hah, I remmeber when I wanted an EUW smurf. Every damn game had at least 1 afk. Every single one of them.
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On August 05 2014 22:43 LaNague wrote:
leveling to 30 isnt that bad.
You must keep in mind that when you make a smurf, you play with other smurfs and those rage a lot.
New players are sorted out relatively quickly and play with each other a lot of time.
And you need the time to 30 to understand the game anways. Why would people want to play ranked when they do not understand the game properly.
btw, dota 2 has an even more terrible experience because they have fewer players to do matchmaking with and Eu servers are basically russian at this point for beginners at least.
Leveling to 30 doesn't actually teach you much about the game since you not only playing a different game to that at level 30 but you also mostly playing uneven games due to smaller pool of players to work with. I think if the leveling system gave you rewards along the way and took half the time it wouldn't be too bad but as it is all it does is discourage people from playing.
Dota 2 noob experience also has afkers and ragers too but don't think it has anything to do with reasons you claim. It's just a byproduct of the genre.
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EPT
