[Patch 4.12] RIP Lucian General Discussion - Page 76

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krndandaman

Mozambique16569 Posts

July 28 2014 05:43 GMT

#1501

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PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

July 28 2014 05:48 GMT

#1502

On July 28 2014 14:43 krndandaman wrote:

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my best guess would be that it's the ideal attack speed early on without sacrificing ad. probably with aa animations or having 11%+4% from masteries being equal to a dagger (15%).

ogn mid laners go ap/lvl and hp/lvl since there aren't really any early game skirmishes and/or harass. mid is pretty safe these days

if it had to do with animations, then the amount would be variable based on the champ used right? Its probably just for the ability to get an extra auto off during a disable from morg/nami/thresh/braum ect. should be easy enough to math out whether that attack speed ends up with an extra auto during the potential disruption caused by your support. and getting a free auto can be enough to snowball a lead if you can consistently get that extra auto every trade.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

July 28 2014 05:51 GMT

#1503

I'm actually kinda starting to see the idea behind it. I thought MR was more efficient (it is, right?) but really the idea behind it is a form of min/maxing. Getting away with a bigger advantage in lane is a lot more important than having a few more points of MR. I've always thought of runes as simply a way to better get your items anyway. I'm not certain how it will affect your survivability but I imagine that you won't die all that much faster to a caster just because you have 6 less MR.

I'm gonna test and see, though.

padfoota

Taiwan1571 Posts

July 28 2014 06:16 GMT

#1504

On July 28 2014 14:01 krndandaman wrote:

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no replay since I play on a mac, lolreplay doesn't work.

also I watched a bit of the video and the riven seems pretty horrible. he also missed out on 1 melee creep in the beginning and allowed you to get 2 melees for free because of how late she came to lane. that is just really really bad.

also what runes were you running? I was surprised you took little to no damage from riven's q combo- or she just fucked up auto cancelling because that shit only did like 10% of your health whereas the riven I faced fucking did like 60-70% with just one q combo.

I have no problems vs bad rivens but any competent one is hard as fuck and I feel helpless.

Show nested quote +

On July 28 2014 09:48 lastshadow wrote:

On July 28 2014 07:14 chalice wrote:

On July 28 2014 06:22 mr_tolkien wrote:
You don't need many runes, just the good ones.

CDR/lvl is utter shit usually and doesn't bring much.

wouldn't CDR/lvl be better relative to other per level runes with the sort of reverse diminishing returns type of thing it has going on where the more CDR you have the more valuable additional CDR becomes?

CDR/Level generally is utter shit but it is not entirely useless 100% of the time. Here in Korea some Rivens will run it top or mid to ensure a better way to 40% cdr at end-game stages.

A few champions can benefit from it depending on how you want to itemize them (shaco comes to mind)

As for the teleport/ignite stuff I'll try to give my input on it.
I'm a believe that taking teleport isn't good at lower elos (d3~belowish??) due to your teammates not knowing how to interact with it and thus I think ignite is superior. However on some champions (those who if they're gonna get a kill, they're get a kill) and also unique-gamestyle champions (yi and nasus instantly come to mind) I think teleport has "hidden" text since it directly influences a part of their core playstyle as a champion and not a choice as a player. Teleport serves a purpose of allowing you to farm Q stacks faster and not be "repeatedly" bullied out of lane as Nasus. It also serves for teleporting to giant minion waves later and also letting you afk farm you Q. Sure other champs you can say also can afk-farm and teleport in but nasus has a side-quest where this dynamic benefits him much more. Very similiar to Yi with his backdooring and how he plays the game of cat n' mouse.

Anyway on Nasus I'd never take teleport over ignite, if you argue you're playing on a smurf in silver/gold you'll probably kill them with R/W/Q/Q/Q at level 6 anyway, you don't need the ignite. Same goes for Yi. Otherwise I think ignite is superior at all elo's below d2 or so for reasons listed above. I feel like hidden text is something a lot of people don't consider when thinking of summoners in relation to a champion, but it's pretty important.

Hope this sort of helps the discussion on it ~_~

I agree, I've been taking teleport less and less these days with good results. I always find a use for ignite, but not really the same for teleport. Sometimes games just end without me really needing TP. In theory TP is superior but in low elo its very hard to take advantage of it with your teammates.

Show nested quote +

I remember a discussion here saying just going full armor runes were better for botlane. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

For TP I still feel its useful even in low ELO especially if its on something like a toplane Akali.

padfoota

Taiwan1571 Posts

July 28 2014 06:17 GMT

#1505

AsianEcksDragon

United States1036 Posts

July 28 2014 06:18 GMT

#1506

I've been running AP/lvl glyph on Ori and Syndra this season and it's been working out great. The 12 MR isn't going to matter if you misplayed or get caught anyway. It also wouldn't matter late game. The extra AP is more useful in a 5v5 team fight when you can aoe their entire team.

For certain ADC (MF, Cait, Varus. Kog), it's been 5 flat MR + 4 scaling MP5. While I can always buy manapots for the laning phase, I still don't like having to base from being oom. There's always something to do or take advantage of and any time you stay in base are potential opportunities that are wasted.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

July 28 2014 07:20 GMT

#1507

On MF I just run 22/5/3 masteries for the mana regen. I'm trying out the attackspeed but I really gotta work on my last hitting if I do that, maybe 2 aspd quints and one flat ad. I still miss like 1-2 a wave for no reason.

Still, I might try out the scaling mp5. Right now I just buy 5 mana pots every back but that's a sliiiiiight waste of gold if I can get it from runes, I guess.

AsianEcksDragon

United States1036 Posts

July 28 2014 07:24 GMT

#1508

You still need mana pots for the laning phase if you're gonna run scaling runes, although probably not 5 every back.. I run scaling MP5 for after the laning phase so I can continue being active throughout the map like shoving lanes, defending sieges, taking some jungle creeps here and there.

GolemMadness

Canada11044 Posts

July 28 2014 08:07 GMT

#1509

On July 28 2014 14:29 krndandaman wrote:

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woah 17.5? did he go utility then? nasus passive = 10, ls quints = 4.5

I think that was a huge mistake by riven since the level 1 and 2 is so important in that match up. from both eye test and statistics I think the nasus was just much much better than riven. riven is d2 but only 6 games with riven while going 1-5 and 2/6/3 KDA. hes a rammus 1 trick pony.

I thought op.gg only recorded plat and above games? if not I'll give it a try.

i'm trying to find a youtube video of a riven vs nasus with no level 1 fuckup and no jungle help.
I found a boxbox one where he played out the level 1 like my opponent did but he got camped like a fucker so.. yea

Yeah, he goes 4/13/13. Personally I'd rather get tenacity from the defensive tree, but that page does give the most sustain. He actually might be using a different page for that game since he has potions instead of cookies.

I'm not really sure how the op.gg replay system works. Some of my ranked games have a replay and some don't. If you go to http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=SirhcEezy around a month ago he has a game against a Riven that has a replay. Unfortunately the one where he's against a D1 Riven main doesn't have a replay.

EDIT: it looks like once you're in game, you can click record on op.gg and it'll record the game on the site. So if you don't record it yourself, you have to hope that somebody else does.

Osmoses

Sweden5302 Posts

July 28 2014 08:24 GMT

#1510

I used to main Riven, and yeah I could usually kill Nasus once or twice early if he didn't get jungler help, but past lvl 11 when nasus got himself some armor there was just no point in trying anymore

That's pretty much the case with Riven against all tanky laners, really, unless you snowball really hard. And either way lategame Nasus is 100% more useful than Riven because the second Riven gets close to anything with damage or cc she explodes.

Fildun

Netherlands4122 Posts

July 28 2014 09:54 GMT

#1511

Hi guys, I've been on holiday for 2 weeks so I've kinda missed the Doom bots stuff. What's it all about and do we get something for beating them?
I beat level 1 yesterday quite easily but I'd be interested in maybe doing the rest of them with some guys from here.

Edit: Nvm, they're gone now

Capped

United Kingdom7236 Posts

July 28 2014 10:12 GMT

#1512

I dont understand why they go through all this effort to make custom gamemodes and stuff only to remove them after like 2 weeks. Whats the point of removing it once you've created it? Leave it accessible in the custom-games section or something. Its like making something, saying "well thats pretty awesome" and putting it in the bin.

JazzVortical

Australia1825 Posts

July 28 2014 10:18 GMT

#1513

I don't see why you would run anything but HP/level and ap/level out of mid, especially if you play the popular picks. You'd only run armour/level seals if you were against an all ad team (e.g a Riven top,and Zed mid), and even then it's debatable. I only take MR against people like Syndra and Leblanc who bully early. I might take MR/level for say a Fizz if I think he's going to be after me, but that's rare.

kongoline

6318 Posts

July 28 2014 11:33 GMT

#1514

lol@riot changing 30 champions in 4.13, dont know how i feel about that

Scip

Czech Republic11293 Posts

July 28 2014 11:59 GMT

#1515

flat Armor still has merit in jungle as it significantly reduces the dmg you take from jungle monsters earlygame

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

July 28 2014 12:01 GMT

#1516

On July 28 2014 20:59 Scip wrote:
flat Armor still has merit in jungle as it significantly reduces the dmg you take from jungle monsters earlygame

the damage block from masteries/machete comes before armor right? so armor is much less useful vs the little minions in wraith/wolf/buff camps, while its roughly as useful vs the big guys? so if you are a single target jungler armor is less beneficial than to aoe clearers yeah?

Amui

Canada10567 Posts

July 28 2014 12:02 GMT

#1517

On July 28 2014 20:33 kongoline wrote:
lol@riot changing 30 champions in 4.13, dont know how i feel about that

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/VPBE

I'd rather they have changed even more tbh. They pretty much only buffed the ones that are almost competitive tier(have seen some competitive play), and nerfed the common picks. That's still like 50% of the pool that they could've added a small numbers buff, or QoL change to.

Banshee's change is dumb, it needed a nerf, but honestly it should've been like 35s, with like 15s delay if somebody tags you.

I like the yasuo change, although I still think the ult arpen is stupidly overpowered.

Urgot is now deader than dead I think. Manamune change will kill him because he doesn't have the midgame power spike any more(-100+ damage per hit on Q's), and his only item that really scaled past that point died.

Alaric

France45622 Posts

July 28 2014 12:26 GMT

#1518

Urgot's main issue, conceptually speaking, is that he's an early game AD caster. And I don't mean that as in the "AD caster" scarecrow, but as in "AD" "caster".
Riot have been so focused on shit like Riven and Zed that they barely take into account total AD ratios that aren't an autoattack modifier (even Lucian's Q is a bonus AD ratio, Jinx's Zap is one of the only recent total AD ratios), so when their itemisation gets fucked there's no compensation in sight for the nerfs.
Add to it that being ability-reliant he doesn't scale off of AD and crit the way others can (Riven ignores the entire concepts of AS and MS either way, and Zed can kinda do with AS thanks to his ult (either if the AS lets him get another hit in, or because it makes BotRk good on him).

Then add in that having a power curve tilted toward early game Riot will never make attempts at strengthening his intended niche/role (or, well, furthering his strengths while creating weaknesses as they liked to say recently) because it creates an overwhelming experience for his opponents when he's played well and has a good start (nvm that he falls off later)

Zdrastochye

Ivory Coast6262 Posts

July 28 2014 14:06 GMT

#1519

On July 28 2014 21:26 Alaric wrote:
Urgot's main issue, conceptually speaking, is that he's an early game AD caster. And I don't mean that as in the "AD caster" scarecrow, but as in "AD" "caster".
Riot have been so focused on shit like Riven and Zed that they barely take into account total AD ratios that aren't an autoattack modifier (even Lucian's Q is a bonus AD ratio, Jinx's Zap is one of the only recent total AD ratios), so when their itemisation gets fucked there's no compensation in sight for the nerfs.
Add to it that being ability-reliant he doesn't scale off of AD and crit the way others can (Riven ignores the entire concepts of AS and MS either way, and Zed can kinda do with AS thanks to his ult (either if the AS lets him get another hit in, or because it makes BotRk good on him).

Then add in that having a power curve tilted toward early game Riot will never make attempts at strengthening his intended niche/role (or, well, furthering his strengths while creating weaknesses as they liked to say recently) because it creates an overwhelming experience for his opponents when he's played well and has a good start (nvm that he falls off later)

Yeah but Riot has done about as much as they can to not make League a game that's over in the first 10 minutes. It's gotten way out of hand the other way that teams with considerable gold leads can't get up inhib towers versus teams with good wave clear, but I'm hopeful that Riot re-balances it out.