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[Patch 4.12] RIP Lucian General Discussion - Page 77

Forum Index > LoL General
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Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-28 14:54:20
July 28 2014 14:37 GMT
#1521
There was a guy jungling Nautilus with MPen, HP/level, MR/level, MS runes a day or two ago. He was on the enemy team so obviously I had reduced intel, but it looks like a horrible rune page to me: monsters have no MR, the shield gets sturdier with armour, and considering Nautilus atrocious base stats his clear is really, really slow and takes him some HP if you don't get a good leash.
With a standard leash, even the standard runes are something like 10s slower than most junglers. I'd have been curious to see his clear times with them (not to mention that while better against Evelynn or Elise, they'd still burst the shield and force him to retreat, while Lee, J4 or Kha'Zix would have an easier time killing him).

About the current stale state of the game, there seem to be 2-3 main things dragging the games:
- too much waveclear making it hard to siege
- the huge amount of protection and counter-initiation introduced to the game in that period (from the Heal/Exhaust s4 changes to Braum's release two months ago) crowding out "real", hard initation
- the nerfs to tanky itemisation (especially armour) over the last patches, more recently compounded by the marksmen itemisation changes, make it harder to take the fight under a tower that you can't destroy in the opening stages of the fight, leading to the need to siege it and poke it down before you can engage under it.

+ Show Spoiler [details] +
Hard initiation still exists, though, but with most tanky junglers, the usual initiators, out of the meta (Amumu, Sejuani, Malphite, Zac, etc.) or nerfed (less range on W means it's harder to do for Maokai), it's much harder to come by when your frontline usually consists of a bruiser/"fighter" over a tank (when Shyvana is the pinacle of the off laner initiator... ). Jarvan and Gragas are the closest we get, along with gimmicks like the Rengar Ball Delivery System©.

Another issue is that you need to get mileage out of your initiation. In general (because you commit resources and if it doesn't pay off you're losing) but also when diving towers (to really dive a tower and not just force the enemy team off as you kill its last 300 HP, you have to win the fight fast, especially with the ramp-up buff this patch).
Super safe picks (Ziggs, pre-nerf Twitch, etc.) combined with survivability (Crucible, Heal, Exhaust, popularity of Nami/Lulu/Braum (for his E against ranged damage)) easily drag fights, making these sieges undesirable. What has happened many games is a Ziggs, Twitch or Lucian getting caught, escaping with only 200-300 HP but then spamming dps on the enemy team from safety, destroying them after their initiation didn't pay off.

To make things worse, not only is it hard to get a good initiation off and follow up on it, the amount of counter-initiation (remember good 5-man Crescendo? Now you have The Box, Glacial Fissure, Satchel Charge/Hexplosive minefield) means that whoever goes in first is actually the one most likely to get jumped on after they get interrupted then cc'd themselves.
The tower and base layout already provide an advantage to the defender, do they really need the defensive kits to be stronger than the offensive ones too?

Waveclear is also preventing people from easily splitpushing because it doesn't require much attention to stop one big wave. When teams are forced to give up a tower to prevent a baron, or a baron to save an inhibitor, because of a huge built-up wave, it's more often because the defendant team screwed up than because the baiting team created that wave on purpose and sent it crashing (think Korean response to the early lane swaps: make your lone guy freeze in front of his t2, then when dragon respawns soon build a slow push with a cannon minion wave and send it crashing: either the enemy team concedes dagon, or loses [most of] a tower to the huge wave).
Ziggs' ult being spammable from across the map and never having to worry about AP (double damage to minions) is a big part of the issue (and the aforementioned "screw up, have to deal with the wave" scenario only happens to teams who don't have Ziggs), but even in general. Remember when Morgana was considered a very good pusher? Now she's bad at it and can only annoy other old champions like Orianna. And you'd never see Vel'Koz even if he was mobile just because he has no real waveclear (W having the least incentive of all his skills to max, apart from being AoE) without the stupidity of pre-rework AP Nidalee.
When you only need to split from the team for 5-6s to clear a whole side lane getting near your base, it's hard to get any progress done. Also note how current popular splitpushing "defenders" like Gragas and Lulu combine good waveclear with being really hard to kill, especially under tower, so that stuff like Tryndamere, Nidalee, Zed, Jax, Shen, etc. on top of having inferior pushing, would have trouble getting their tower unless massively ahead.


A parallel that amuses me is how popular double AP comps are becoming these last weeks (moreso since Gragas' rework, as before it was more Lulu being an exception in the off lane).

Last time we saw them it was in s2, and they were centered around midgame teamfighting power, AoE burst and cc, and tended to taper off because of stuff like FoN. You saw Kennen, Karthus, Morgana, Vladimir, Orianna, Gragas.
Now they're not as damage heavy, definitely not midgame nor burst oriented (Syndra picks being a notable exception), and they rely more on stalling till late game where they can dish out loads of sustained damage while spamming cc to keep people at bay. You see Ziggs, Lulu, Ryze, new Gragas, Xerath.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
July 28 2014 14:39 GMT
#1522
On July 28 2014 23:06 Zdrastochye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2014 21:26 Alaric wrote:
Urgot's main issue, conceptually speaking, is that he's an early game AD caster. And I don't mean that as in the "AD caster" scarecrow, but as in "AD" "caster".
Riot have been so focused on shit like Riven and Zed that they barely take into account total AD ratios that aren't an autoattack modifier (even Lucian's Q is a bonus AD ratio, Jinx's Zap is one of the only recent total AD ratios), so when their itemisation gets fucked there's no compensation in sight for the nerfs.
Add to it that being ability-reliant he doesn't scale off of AD and crit the way others can (Riven ignores the entire concepts of AS and MS either way, and Zed can kinda do with AS thanks to his ult (either if the AS lets him get another hit in, or because it makes BotRk good on him).

Then add in that having a power curve tilted toward early game Riot will never make attempts at strengthening his intended niche/role (or, well, furthering his strengths while creating weaknesses as they liked to say recently) because it creates an overwhelming experience for his opponents when he's played well and has a good start (nvm that he falls off later)


Yeah but Riot has done about as much as they can to not make League a game that's over in the first 10 minutes. It's gotten way out of hand the other way that teams with considerable gold leads can't get up inhib towers versus teams with good wave clear, but I'm hopeful that Riot re-balances it out.

Well, in pro games, like 90% of the problem is ziggs and gragas. It's not like syndra or Ori teams are doing that.
Freeeeeeedom
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
July 28 2014 14:49 GMT
#1523
--- Nuked ---
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
July 28 2014 14:56 GMT
#1524
We've actually missed a fair share of kills (or they required a sacrifice/my flash) because junglers were afraid of "stealing" the kill or would rather have me get fed as the off laner, in the past 2 weeks. I always tell them "better safe than sorry" but I've been prefering saying "sorry" to my laners afterwards or just something generic like "fuck" than trying to let them get it only to lose the kill.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-28 15:07:45
July 28 2014 15:06 GMT
#1525
I don't take any chances with that stuff unless I'm on Skype with the laner in question, outside of shutdowns it very rarely bites you back to just take the kill to make sure it happens.

especially if they flash, because then I'm coming back after buy anyway.
Carrilord has arrived.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-28 15:38:29
July 28 2014 15:38 GMT
#1526
On July 28 2014 23:49 JimmiC wrote:
Has anyone else ran Nasus with exhaust? I found it really good vs riven because if they dive it does as good or better then ignite at securing your kill. When your jungler comes there is no escape from wither + exhaust, and I find solo Q junglers come more because they know it's a pretty easy kill AND they are likely to get it themselves, which the greedy buggers love!

Late game it's not bad to shut down ADC, or whoever. I used to run it all the time until no one else dd so I figured it was bad, might get back to it.

The matchup I hate with nasus is Grag, he's so tanky it's crazy.


grags an easy matchup, he can't out harass your sustain, once you get +150-+200 damage on Q you can bully him out.

Exhaust is alright to avoid dives but you shouldn't really get into positions to be dived anyway. TP is more flexible if slightly worse if you aren't playing the lane like he can push and dive you early with jungler if let yourself get into that position.
I guess ignite vs exhaust might be a toss up but I'm not sure.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
July 28 2014 15:50 GMT
#1527
Exhaust pretty much completely negates the Riven all in, but I'd still tell a Nasus to stick with tp, because your job isn't necessarily to win lane, its to spend the entire game splitting and then tp into dragon fight cleanups.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Frudgey
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada3367 Posts
July 28 2014 15:52 GMT
#1528
On July 29 2014 00:06 Slusher wrote:
I don't take any chances with that stuff unless I'm on Skype with the laner in question, outside of shutdowns it very rarely bites you back to just take the kill to make sure it happens.

especially if they flash, because then I'm coming back after buy anyway.

I agree with this sentiment. I don't like taking chances with this kind of stuff either, which has lead to a couple of "kill steals" on my part, but I'd rather have that happen than them get away.

I think this might be a bad mentality to have, but in Solo Que I don't really trust my team mates, at least in the sense that I use my own judgement about calls if I have doubts about what the other person is suggesting. This only really applies for when a jungler comes to gank my lane however, and they want to do something and I think it's a bad idea, or something along those lines. Of course this isn't conducive team-play in all situations, which really isn't good in a game like League of Legends, but I've seen some judgement calls that have been questionable. And that being said of course, I have been in situations where the other person was right and I was wrong, so at the very least it's a learning experience haha.

I just feel like it's much easier to be coordinated and employ strategy when you're playing with friends, especially if you're talking on Skype or something. Of course I think this goes without saying though.
It is better to die for The Emperor than live for yourself.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 28 2014 16:39 GMT
#1529
Just take the kill, if you feel like you KS'd the jungler, let him kill a wave or two while you push to tower then/or back. Problem solved more or less.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
July 28 2014 16:51 GMT
#1530
Don't think it's ever a good idea to make sure someone gets the last hit unless the kill is 1000000% secured.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
July 28 2014 17:03 GMT
#1531
I wonder when Riot is actually going to put MR on jungle camps.... it has the potential to swing the jungle meta hugely.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35173 Posts
July 28 2014 17:14 GMT
#1532
On July 29 2014 02:03 Sufficiency wrote:
I wonder when Riot is actually going to put MR on jungle camps.... it has the potential to swing the jungle meta hugely.

When they decide they want to ruin AP junglers outside of fringe cases.
wussleeQ
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States3130 Posts
July 28 2014 17:40 GMT
#1533
how the hell are people still going on about nasus for the past like 4-5 days? this is gd not the damn nasus page. it used to be okay for like a few comments but yeah...
BW -> League -> CSGO
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
July 28 2014 17:49 GMT
#1534
You're right.

Guys? Lets all talk about stuff wusslee will find interesting.

Actually I'm sort of getting bored with it too, its a champ that works best when left alone for the entire game and imo thats just boring gameplay. We touched on specialization vs generalization just now. I usually grind one char at a time, for me it's way more fun figuring out the limits of one character than just trying to abuse strengths of the current meta. This goes for streamers I watch too, unorthodox champs that are played well are just way more fun to spectate in my opinion, rather than another friggin renekton or elise.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
July 28 2014 17:52 GMT
#1535
playing alone for the entire game isn't a viable way to play, so balancing trying to farm a lane and trying to be with your team is somewhat more interesting.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
July 28 2014 18:04 GMT
#1536
What? Staying alone is like playing russian roulette, will your team get caught or not? The thrills!
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
July 28 2014 18:07 GMT
#1537
You mean will you get caught?

Most "split pushes" in lower elos involves the one person diverting people to them and away from global objectives, with them dying before his team is even remotely prepared to combine to push another tower/do dragon.
Hey! How you doin'?
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
July 28 2014 18:20 GMT
#1538
--- Nuked ---
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 28 2014 18:25 GMT
#1539
On July 29 2014 03:20 krndandaman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2014 02:49 Osmoses wrote:
You're right.

Guys? Lets all talk about stuff wusslee will find interesting.

Actually I'm sort of getting bored with it too, its a champ that works best when left alone for the entire game and imo thats just boring gameplay. We touched on specialization vs generalization just now. I usually grind one char at a time, for me it's way more fun figuring out the limits of one character than just trying to abuse strengths of the current meta. This goes for streamers I watch too, unorthodox champs that are played well are just way more fun to spectate in my opinion, rather than another friggin renekton or elise.


as a mostly meta player, the great thing about playing meta champs is you don't really have to be some wizard with them. they are just so strong that you just need to be competent to do well. it's also much easier to pick into team comps/fill into roles which is helpful especially when I duo with my friends that main a champ/role.


except that if you run into someone who is actually good with their champ and knows the matchup you get smooshed.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
July 28 2014 18:34 GMT
#1540
On July 29 2014 03:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2014 03:20 krndandaman wrote:
On July 29 2014 02:49 Osmoses wrote:
You're right.

Guys? Lets all talk about stuff wusslee will find interesting.

Actually I'm sort of getting bored with it too, its a champ that works best when left alone for the entire game and imo thats just boring gameplay. We touched on specialization vs generalization just now. I usually grind one char at a time, for me it's way more fun figuring out the limits of one character than just trying to abuse strengths of the current meta. This goes for streamers I watch too, unorthodox champs that are played well are just way more fun to spectate in my opinion, rather than another friggin renekton or elise.


as a mostly meta player, the great thing about playing meta champs is you don't really have to be some wizard with them. they are just so strong that you just need to be competent to do well. it's also much easier to pick into team comps/fill into roles which is helpful especially when I duo with my friends that main a champ/role.


except that if you run into someone who is actually good with their champ and knows the matchup you get smooshed.


depends on the skill floor of the hero

LB solo q winrate vs. ziggs extrapolate from there
Carrilord has arrived.
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