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On June 24 2014 11:03 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 10:35 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 10:23 Bam Lee wrote:
Level 2 j4 deals more damage than morg. But how are you going to play out the rest of the lane(not offending you, im curious)? Any hard engage between level 2-6 looks doomed to fail. She can black shield your knockup leaving you in a terrible position since you basically just overextended without gaining anything. You can use it to gapclose but wont she just bind you and you get poked for free? The shield isnt particularly strong in the early levels.
Also i can imagine j4 running out of mana pretty fast if he keeps trying to engage.
Do you just play the lane passive till level 6 when you can cataclysm? J4 deals more damage than Morg at all levels due to his passive(until she gets AP); that combined with his shield and inherent tankiness mean that he wins trades with her the entirety of laning phase. J4's mana costs are really low actually(In order 45,30,55), and his shield is massive. The AoE burst on his shield is large enough to easily get two people in it. Your 2 person rank 1 shield is 90. So a little less than Lulu who is set with AP (needs 16 AP to equalize). Your rank 2 shield is 150, lulu would need 50 AP and rank 2 shield to equalize. Rank 3 is 210, lulu needs 83 AP and rank 3. Rank 4 is 270, lulu needs 116 AP to equalize. It scales really well into mid game team fights where your shield can be upwards of 500 HP for a level 9 team fight (though 390 is a more reasonable number) On June 24 2014 10:28 canikizu wrote:
You have to max Q on J4. The % armor reduction is gonna help out your adc a lot in every situation. Why do we even have a discussion of which spells to max first on J4?
The EQ + passive alone already does almost 1/3 of everybody's hp already. Not as a support. You can max Q but W max is safer and enables you to win trades better. In the jungle the shield is really bad because there are no enemy champions to hit, if you're ganking the shield barely matters because its a 2v1. In lane however the shield is huge because you can hit two people with it each time. And the extra strength means that the trade differential (enemy HP lost vs Allied HP lost) is better for J4 with his shield. I mean J4 will have some 50 armor/MR at level 1-3. So one level of shield is worth about 90 HP in a trade. One level of Q is worth 45 HP/Armor plus a 4% reduction in the enemies armor for subsequent attacks. If that enemy has 40 armor that is worth 1.6 armor/level. Its very good as your second rank up, because the bonus from your flag is pitiful, and because enemies will have more armor later in the game. But before the percentage shred means anything, its not as strong a rankup. This differs from solo lane and jungle J4. Solo lane J4 will want to poke/harass with Q, but support J4 will almost always want to engage in those situations. You will almost never get J4's shield to 500. It's even hard to get it to 390HP. To get 390hp, your W has to hit 3 people in 300-aoe range, that is even smaller than Cataclysm's aoe. You usually have even hard time to get your W to hit 2 people in 2v2 scenario, let alone a big team fight. It's a blessing if J4 can hit ulti on 3 people, let alone a W on 3 people. Moreover, if you level up the W because you get harassed, then the most likely scenario is the enemy wasn't even in your 300-aoe range in the first place to maximize your W. When you play J4 support. Your game play should be all-in or almost all-in, and in all-in scenario, maxing Q is always better.
If you're all-in then shield will have a higher probability of getting kills/living, simply because the raw power differential, even if you only hit one person on the shield, is greater.
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has anyone heard anything about primetime Draven d/cing the user? friend having this problem, when using W immediately upon reset from a catch
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Did we just have 2 pages of j4 vs morgana?...
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On June 24 2014 10:23 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 10:04 zer0das wrote:On June 24 2014 09:44 Alaric wrote:
Olaf isn't affected too much in that he can chain axes if he plays properly I think it's a pretty big deal because of the loss of the consistency. If Olaf misses an axe or throws it a bit off so he can't recover it, he's potentially screwed. Also, targets autoing you with Randuin's were easier to hit with axes. For champions that are already on the fringe, loss of consistency is a big deal, because you already have a shorter list of reasons to play them in the first place. Edit: Also when you're diving a team, you're probably eating autos from 3-5 champions, and there's almost zero chance you're landing axes on all of them. So the Randuin's slow makes it easier for the rest of your team to close on them. Also because chaining axes is like a unicorn with its current iteration. Olaf is still balanced around having ghost up for every fight, which is to say, not balanced particularly well.
I was going to say something to the effect of unicorn, but yeah, real fights are chaotic. It's not a realistic expectation to chuck axes perfectly because it's really hard to do that while you're charging through an enemy team. 1v1 yeah, its not that bad (especially if they don't have a dash). I wish I had replays of all my Olaf games (I probably play more Olaf in solo que than almost anyone here- or did, probably not after the Randuin's change)- it would be really interesting to see how quickly I screw up the axe chaining in 5v5s.
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On June 24 2014 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:
Did we just have 2 pages of j4 vs morgana?...
that's what happens without zombi vigilante extraordinaire roffles
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I honestly think that you guys are bashing how good J4 support is against Morgana with no actual experience or thought. Goumindong makes a lot of extremely good points and everyone is just like "l0l u cant beat morgana shes better"
This is substantially different from the WW discussion and bringing that in is essentially disregarding all of his points
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J4 would be a great support except for the fact that as a support he's outshined in almost every way by Leona. He's very all-in, but unlike Leona, has pretty bad inherent tankiness after all the flag nerfs.
If it weren't for that, he'd be legit as a support imo. Unlike WW support, which has literally no crowd control utility outside of his ult and his W, which is arguably inferior to Nunu bloodboil.
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On June 24 2014 12:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I honestly think that you guys are bashing how good J4 support is against Morgana with no actual experience or thought. Goumindong makes a lot of extremely good points and everyone is just like "l0l u cant beat morgana shes better"
This is substantially different from the WW discussion and bringing that in is essentially disregarding all of his points
I just said that it doesn't really matter if he counters Morgana or not since nobody ever plays him as a support, so it doesn't affect how strong Morgana is.
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On June 24 2014 12:20 Ryuu314 wrote:
J4 would be a great support except for the fact that as a support he's outshined in almost every way by Leona. He's very all-in, but unlike Leona, has pretty bad inherent tankiness after all the flag nerfs.
If it weren't for that, he'd be legit as a support imo. Unlike WW support, which has literally no crowd control utility outside of his ult and his W, which is arguably inferior to Nunu bloodboil.
Except Leona gets shit on by Morgana and J4 doesn't...
Leona dreams of hitting as hard as J4.
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http://blog.ibuypower.com/blog/2014/06/23/doublelift-vlog-adc-itemization-patch-4-10/
This video pretty much sums up why I disagree with doublelift about the changes. When it comes down to it, his beef is "I don't want to play the champions that are strong now, the champions I've played forever aren't strong anymore."
Oh no, heaven forbid a professional changes his champ pool to adapt with the times just like every other position.
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On June 24 2014 11:24 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 11:03 canikizu wrote:On June 24 2014 10:35 Goumindong wrote:On June 24 2014 10:23 Bam Lee wrote:
Level 2 j4 deals more damage than morg. But how are you going to play out the rest of the lane(not offending you, im curious)? Any hard engage between level 2-6 looks doomed to fail. She can black shield your knockup leaving you in a terrible position since you basically just overextended without gaining anything. You can use it to gapclose but wont she just bind you and you get poked for free? The shield isnt particularly strong in the early levels.
Also i can imagine j4 running out of mana pretty fast if he keeps trying to engage.
Do you just play the lane passive till level 6 when you can cataclysm? J4 deals more damage than Morg at all levels due to his passive(until she gets AP); that combined with his shield and inherent tankiness mean that he wins trades with her the entirety of laning phase. J4's mana costs are really low actually(In order 45,30,55), and his shield is massive. The AoE burst on his shield is large enough to easily get two people in it. Your 2 person rank 1 shield is 90. So a little less than Lulu who is set with AP (needs 16 AP to equalize). Your rank 2 shield is 150, lulu would need 50 AP and rank 2 shield to equalize. Rank 3 is 210, lulu needs 83 AP and rank 3. Rank 4 is 270, lulu needs 116 AP to equalize. It scales really well into mid game team fights where your shield can be upwards of 500 HP for a level 9 team fight (though 390 is a more reasonable number) On June 24 2014 10:28 canikizu wrote:
You have to max Q on J4. The % armor reduction is gonna help out your adc a lot in every situation. Why do we even have a discussion of which spells to max first on J4?
The EQ + passive alone already does almost 1/3 of everybody's hp already. Not as a support. You can max Q but W max is safer and enables you to win trades better. In the jungle the shield is really bad because there are no enemy champions to hit, if you're ganking the shield barely matters because its a 2v1. In lane however the shield is huge because you can hit two people with it each time. And the extra strength means that the trade differential (enemy HP lost vs Allied HP lost) is better for J4 with his shield. I mean J4 will have some 50 armor/MR at level 1-3. So one level of shield is worth about 90 HP in a trade. One level of Q is worth 45 HP/Armor plus a 4% reduction in the enemies armor for subsequent attacks. If that enemy has 40 armor that is worth 1.6 armor/level. Its very good as your second rank up, because the bonus from your flag is pitiful, and because enemies will have more armor later in the game. But before the percentage shred means anything, its not as strong a rankup. This differs from solo lane and jungle J4. Solo lane J4 will want to poke/harass with Q, but support J4 will almost always want to engage in those situations. You will almost never get J4's shield to 500. It's even hard to get it to 390HP. To get 390hp, your W has to hit 3 people in 300-aoe range, that is even smaller than Cataclysm's aoe. You usually have even hard time to get your W to hit 2 people in 2v2 scenario, let alone a big team fight. It's a blessing if J4 can hit ulti on 3 people, let alone a W on 3 people. Moreover, if you level up the W because you get harassed, then the most likely scenario is the enemy wasn't even in your 300-aoe range in the first place to maximize your W. When you play J4 support. Your game play should be all-in or almost all-in, and in all-in scenario, maxing Q is always better. If you're all-in then shield will have a higher probability of getting kills/living, simply because the raw power differential, even if you only hit one person on the shield, is greater.
For example, at level 5, the W that hit only one enemy will give J4 170hp, and the Q will deal 160 damage (+120%bonus ad which is irrelevant since J4 support don't usually build AD anyway) and 18% armor reduction. I fail to see any timing that make max-W J4 support better than max-Q J4 support. At level 5, you have 100hp more than a J4 that only has 1lvl W, so you can tank like 0.5 second more? If you can all-in with mediocre damage and tank another 0.5sec, I think you can also all-in and kill people 0.5sec faster.
Moreover, maxing Q can let you harass with your Q alone. It has longer range than Sona and Annie, or even Nami's damage spells anyway.
Number-wise and versatility-wise, I don't think maxing W is worth it.
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On June 24 2014 12:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I honestly think that you guys are bashing how good J4 support is against Morgana with no actual experience or thought. Goumindong makes a lot of extremely good points and everyone is just like "l0l u cant beat morgana shes better"
This is substantially different from the WW discussion and bringing that in is essentially disregarding all of his points
thats generally how every conversation's been on TL no matter who brings it up.
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On June 24 2014 12:38 Gahlo wrote:http://blog.ibuypower.com/blog/2014/06/23/doublelift-vlog-adc-itemization-patch-4-10/This video pretty much sums up why I disagree with doublelift about the changes. When it comes down to it, his beef is "I don't want to play the champions that are strong now, the champions I've played forever aren't strong anymore." Oh no, heaven forbid a professional changes his champ pool to adapt with the times just like every other position.
It's not like DL's champ pool is affected by this though... The only ADC that's good right now, that he doesn't play is Kog. But that applies to almost all the ADC's in NA. I think he just wants Vayne to be decent again.
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On June 24 2014 12:51 wei2coolman wrote:It's not like DL's champ pool is affected by this though... The only ADC that's good right now, that he doesn't play is Kog. But that applies to almost all the ADC's in NA. I think he just wants Vayne to be decent again.
Given that she wasn't a BT carry, I think Vayne is still in that "always good but not enough players to make her relevant" mode.
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On June 24 2014 12:38 Gahlo wrote:http://blog.ibuypower.com/blog/2014/06/23/doublelift-vlog-adc-itemization-patch-4-10/This video pretty much sums up why I disagree with doublelift about the changes. When it comes down to it, his beef is "I don't want to play the champions that are strong now, the champions I've played forever aren't strong anymore." Oh no, heaven forbid a professional changes his champ pool to adapt with the times just like every other position.
This is just completely wrong. He specifically says that he's going to play the champions that he played a lot in season 2, so he actually IS playing the champions he's played forever. His main complaints are that the changes make things a lot less interesting since the high skill cap ADC's are weaker now, and it takes too long for ADC's to become relevant in the game.
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On June 24 2014 12:54 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 12:51 wei2coolman wrote:On June 24 2014 12:38 Gahlo wrote:http://blog.ibuypower.com/blog/2014/06/23/doublelift-vlog-adc-itemization-patch-4-10/This video pretty much sums up why I disagree with doublelift about the changes. When it comes down to it, his beef is "I don't want to play the champions that are strong now, the champions I've played forever aren't strong anymore." Oh no, heaven forbid a professional changes his champ pool to adapt with the times just like every other position. It's not like DL's champ pool is affected by this though... The only ADC that's good right now, that he doesn't play is Kog. But that applies to almost all the ADC's in NA. I think he just wants Vayne to be decent again. Given that she wasn't a BT carry, I think Vayne is still in that "always good but not enough players to make her relevant" mode.
DL plays her with BT first. So that could be it, but item improvements doesn't fix any of the issues that revolve around her getting shat on in lane.
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On June 24 2014 12:55 GolemMadness wrote:This is just completely wrong. He specifically says that he's going to play the champions that he played a lot in season 2, so he actually IS playing the champions he's played forever. His main complaints are that the changes make things a lot less interesting since the high skill cap ADC's are weaker now, and it takes too long for ADC's to become relevant in the game.
High Skill cap ADCs? He mentions that Lucian is nerfed, but still top 5. Lucian also is like the least skillful of ADCs so I don't see that. This is simply dlift falling into the dlift mentality. He says that champs aren't particularly hard, because he doesn't feel like he is doing much besides right clicking. Well of course that is what he would say is "skill" because he still, apparently, is completely unaware of positioning as a skill, and is hyperfocused on his "mechanics" aka button spamming.
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On June 24 2014 12:41 canikizu wrote:
For example, at level 5, the W that hit only one enemy will give J4 170hp, and the Q will deal 160 damage (+120%bonus ad which is irrelevant since J4 support don't usually build AD anyway) and 18% armor reduction. I fail to see any timing that make max-W J4 support better than max-Q J4 support. At level 5, you have 100hp more than a J4 that only has 1lvl W, so you can tank like 0.5 second more? If you can all-in with mediocre damage and tank another 0.5sec, I think you can also all-in and kill people 0.5sec faster.
Moreover, maxing Q can let you harass with your Q alone. It has longer range than Sona and Annie, or even Nami's damage spells anyway.
Number-wise and versatility-wise, I don't think maxing W is worth it.
Sure, but 170 is a still a decently big shield when its on a tank and it slows. If you hit only one enemy, your shield gives 50 HP/level before armor/mr. Q gives 45 damage/level. Since you're J4 you're tanky, so 50 HP/Level is pretty much always going to beat 45 damage/level. The only exception is if they can ignore you and get to your carry. Which they should not be able to do because a) you're in their face and b) you've slowed them for 2 seconds (minus whomever Morg shielded). At the very least you can 2v1 whomever didn't get black shielded and goes after your carry and because you're Jarvan and they're Morg you will win that.
Now, it is true that the lower CD on Q means that you can harass with it. Buuut not really, because every time you harass with Q you're removing the threat of your all-in until its back up. At rank 1 that is 10 seconds, rank 2 that is 9 seconds, rank 3 that is 8 seconds. Your all-in is also your peel/counter engage. So if the enemy decides to turn or press in those 8 seconds you're toast. The only thing that leveling Q does is potentially give you a second Q in an all in. But the CD is so long i don't find that likely until after laning. And if the fight did go that long you would really have wanted that big shield (and for your big shield to come back up faster)
If an enemy j4 was in lane with me and used his Q i would continually auto attack harass him out of the lane then when he was out of minions, root him and finish him off. What is he going to do? Walk at me? Drop his 60 damage flag? No. Walk away so i can pressure and root his AD? Support J4 is significantly different than Solo Lane J4 in this manner. You cannot poke at someone when that poke is also your primary engage potential. You're not denying yourself a bit of farm until your abilities are back up, you're getting your AD zoned.
When you trade as support J4 its very similar to a trade as Leona. You E,Q,W, auto Pop all your damage and walk out, repeat in 10 seconds when your combo is back up again.
On June 24 2014 11:03 canikizu wrote:
You will almost never get J4's shield to 500. It's even hard to get it to 390HP. To get 390hp, your W has to hit 3 people in 300-aoe range, that is even smaller than Cataclysm's aoe.
Forgot to respond to this point.
So that isn't quite true. It is true that Cataclysm is a 325 AoE and Shield is 300. But Cataclysm is always centered on an enemy champion. Three enemy champions being within 325 of another enemy champion is significantly different than being with 300 of 3 enemy champions*. When you're E-Q'ing into a fight you should not have a hard time hitting 2-3 enemy champions with your shield. There are a myriad of situations where you will only ult 1 or 2 people with cataclysm, but can hit 3 with the shield on the way in, or once the ult is down and people stop worry about clumping up.
*The easy way to see this is to draw an equilateral triangle onto a 600 diameter circle. From basic trig its pretty easy to see that the distance between each point is about 520, yet they are still 300 from the center. So as we can see there is a good bit of leeway for where your shield can hit a lot of people, but you can still ult only one. Obviously if you can hit more than one with your ult you can hit them with your shield as well.
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On June 24 2014 13:15 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 12:55 GolemMadness wrote:On June 24 2014 12:38 Gahlo wrote:http://blog.ibuypower.com/blog/2014/06/23/doublelift-vlog-adc-itemization-patch-4-10/This video pretty much sums up why I disagree with doublelift about the changes. When it comes down to it, his beef is "I don't want to play the champions that are strong now, the champions I've played forever aren't strong anymore." Oh no, heaven forbid a professional changes his champ pool to adapt with the times just like every other position. This is just completely wrong. He specifically says that he's going to play the champions that he played a lot in season 2, so he actually IS playing the champions he's played forever. His main complaints are that the changes make things a lot less interesting since the high skill cap ADC's are weaker now, and it takes too long for ADC's to become relevant in the game. High Skill cap ADCs? He mentions: That Lucian is nerfed, but still top 5. Lucian also is like the least skillful of ADCs so I don't see that. This is simply dlift falling into the dlift mentality. He says that champs aren't particularly hard, because he doesn't feel like he is doing much besides right clicking. Well of course that is what he would say is "skill" because he still, apparantly, is completely unaware of positioning as a skill, and is hyperfocused on his "mechanics" aka button spamming.
You have to remember, this is ADCs we're talking about. The class of champions where if they don't do 80%+* of their damage by right clicking and making a sandwich that means it takes skill.
*completely made up statistic
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watch deft Kog'maw and watch NA kog'maw and tell me getting uptime on right click takes no skill.
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EPT
